***2015 San Diego Chargers - Offseason News, Notes, & Analysis*** (1 Viewer)

[Tau837]

So is the only example of a QB playing like a franchise QB through his age 38 season or older Brett Favre?

You don't think Peyton played like a franchise QB last season? If you don't, perhaps you should define what you mean by franchise QB.

You mean the season that inspired Elway to ask Manning to cut his pay in half? As it is Elway was unwilling to give Manning "Cutler Money" based on how he looked last year. I think paying anyone $20+mil to hobble down the stretch and can't throw a 30 yard pass by the playoffs would be excessive, yes. If Manning was only injured and when healthy would be in '13 form... then why the paycut? Or do you think we have a better idea of Mannings health/ability/worth than Elway has access to?

Warner 3700/26/14.... meh, I guess if you consider Andy Dalton as a true franchise QB. I don't think many people think Dalton is a $20+million man.

I'll give you Moon though, forgot just how well he played in MIN. So the entire list of guys who have played at a franchise level to the end of the season(the END of the season is what matters if you are trying to win a SB, no?) is:

Moon

Favre

Those don't seem like good odds to me. I don't see the point but it doesn't piss me off nearly as much as it's probably going to piss off Weddle. If I was Telescoe I wouldn't be worrying what dead money is on the salary cap in four years either. In a lot of ways it seems like his moves are just to avoid short term criticism by your average person in the stands. And we know how that ends.

Warner had a 93.2 passer rating that season and, more importantly, led the team to a 10-5 record in his starts, and the team won its division. Then he was 29/33 for 379 yards and 5 TDs in the first playoff game, a 51-45 win over the Packers. Yeah, I'd say that was a franchise QB season.

You also ignored Elway here. He led his team to a second straight Super Bowl win at age 38. The team was 10-2 in his 12 starts, and he had a 93 passer rating. He didn't put up monster numbers because he didn't have to, as the team ran for 2468 yards. He did throw for 336 yards in the Super Bowl. That's obviously a franchise QB season.

We agree on Moon and Favre.

We can agree to disagree on Peyton. He passed for 4727 yards and 39 TDs last season, led his team to a 12-4 regular season record and division title, and was a Pro Bowler. He got hurt at some point late in the season and it affected his play. But I don't see how that isn't a franchise QB season.

Brady is probably going to put up a great year this season at age 38 and join this club, and Brees might do the same next year. Roethlisberger and Eli will be under big contracts and have a chance to do it.

Notice a trend here? These quality age 38 seasons seem to be becoming more prevalent.

And at Weddle being upset about it. I think there is zero chance of that. They are friends, and Weddle understands the business. I'm sure he fully expected Rivers to get an extension like this. The Liuget deal would be a better target if he was going to be upset about another deal, but I doubt he was upset about that either. If the team wanted to extend Weddle, they could do it independent of these other deals, and I'm sure he knows that.

 

[Freelove]

So is the only example of a QB playing like a franchise QB through his age 38 season or older Brett Favre?

You don't think Peyton played like a franchise QB last season? If you don't, perhaps you should define what you mean by franchise QB.

You mean the season that inspired Elway to ask Manning to cut his pay in half? As it is Elway was unwilling to give Manning "Cutler Money" based on how he looked last year. I think paying anyone $20+mil to hobble down the stretch and can't throw a 30 yard pass by the playoffs would be excessive, yes. If Manning was only injured and when healthy would be in '13 form... then why the paycut? Or do you think we have a better idea of Mannings health/ability/worth than Elway has access to?

Warner 3700/26/14.... meh, I guess if you consider Andy Dalton as a true franchise QB. I don't think many people think Dalton is a $20+million man.

I'll give you Moon though, forgot just how well he played in MIN. So the entire list of guys who have played at a franchise level to the end of the season(the END of the season is what matters if you are trying to win a SB, no?) is:

Moon

Favre

Those don't seem like good odds to me. I don't see the point but it doesn't piss me off nearly as much as it's probably going to piss off Weddle. If I was Telescoe I wouldn't be worrying what dead money is on the salary cap in four years either. In a lot of ways it seems like his moves are just to avoid short term criticism by your average person in the stands. And we know how that ends.

Of course not, because your irrational dismissal of trivial things like being Pro-Bowl caliber good and winning Super Bowls, or I dunno, merely posting 4700/39/15 lines while injured half the year means it's going to be just about impossible to meet your "odds."

If Rivers achieves any of that, it'll mean he's had a career season.

 

[BoltBacker]

So is the only example of a QB playing like a franchise QB through his age 38 season or older Brett Favre?

You don't think Peyton played like a franchise QB last season? If you don't, perhaps you should define what you mean by franchise QB.

You mean the season that inspired Elway to ask Manning to cut his pay in half? As it is Elway was unwilling to give Manning "Cutler Money" based on how he looked last year. I think paying anyone $20+mil to hobble down the stretch and can't throw a 30 yard pass by the playoffs would be excessive, yes. If Manning was only injured and when healthy would be in '13 form... then why the paycut? Or do you think we have a better idea of Mannings health/ability/worth than Elway has access to?

Warner 3700/26/14.... meh, I guess if you consider Andy Dalton as a true franchise QB. I don't think many people think Dalton is a $20+million man.

I'll give you Moon though, forgot just how well he played in MIN. So the entire list of guys who have played at a franchise level to the end of the season(the END of the season is what matters if you are trying to win a SB, no?) is:

Moon

Favre

Those don't seem like good odds to me. I don't see the point but it doesn't piss me off nearly as much as it's probably going to piss off Weddle. If I was Telescoe I wouldn't be worrying what dead money is on the salary cap in four years either. In a lot of ways it seems like his moves are just to avoid short term criticism by your average person in the stands. And we know how that ends.

Of course not, because your irrational dismissal of trivial things like being Pro-Bowl caliber good and winning Super Bowls, or I dunno, merely posting 4700/39/15 lines while injured half the year means it's going to be just about impossible to meet your "odds."

If Rivers achieves any of that, it'll mean he's had a career season.

You are wrong.

If Rivers has a Pro-Bowl it will not mean he's had a career season. If making the Pro-Browl meant he was having a career season then he doesn't deserve franchise QB $ NOW.

 

[BoltBacker]

And at Weddle being upset about it. I think there is zero chance of that. They are friends, and Weddle understands the business. I'm sure he fully expected Rivers to get an extension like this.

I wasn't saying Weddle was jealous of Rivers, I was saying the Chargers no longer have to use the franchise tag on Rivers so if they want to they can use the franchise tag on Weddle if they would like. Weddle has expressed his intent to negotiate a deal someplace else at the end of the season because he couldn't come to an agreement this summer with Telescoe. I believe Weddle considers himself "disrespected" being paid as a top 5 safety this year, so I can only assume he would feel the same way being paid like a top 5 safety next season. Not sure why that's so funny.

 

[BoltBacker]

Brady is probably going to put up a great year this season at age 38 and join this club, and Brees might do the same next year. Roethlisberger and Eli will be under big contracts and have a chance to do it.

Notice a trend here?

..... ummm, they are all blind speculation?

 

[BoltBacker]

We can agree to disagree on Peyton. He passed for 4727 yards and 39 TDs last season, led his team to a 12-4 regular season record and division title, and was a Pro Bowler. He got hurt at some point late in the season and it affected his play. But I don't see how that isn't a franchise QB season.

And you ignore Elway asking Peyton to take a $10mil paycut after a "franchise QB" year....

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2015-06-24/peyton-manning-broncos-trade-rumors-10-million-paycut-texans

... has a franchise quarterback ever been asked to take a cut in pay of $10mil in the history of football? How much more do you know about Manning than Elway does?

 

[Tau837]

Brady is probably going to put up a great year this season at age 38 and join this club, and Brees might do the same next year. Roethlisberger and Eli will be under big contracts and have a chance to do it.

Notice a trend here?

..... ummm, they are all blind speculation?

Do you think Brady had a "franchise QB season" in 2014? If so, do you expect his play to drop off significantly this season?

Do you think Brees is currently a franchise QB? Do you expect his play to drop off significantly this season or next season?

 

[Tau837]

We can agree to disagree on Peyton. He passed for 4727 yards and 39 TDs last season, led his team to a 12-4 regular season record and division title, and was a Pro Bowler. He got hurt at some point late in the season and it affected his play. But I don't see how that isn't a franchise QB season.

And you ignore Elway asking Peyton to take a $10mil paycut after a "franchise QB" year....

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2015-06-24/peyton-manning-broncos-trade-rumors-10-million-paycut-texans

... has a franchise quarterback ever been asked to take a cut in pay of $10mil in the history of football? How much more do you know about Manning than Elway does?

Your stance on this is ridiculous. I'll just agree to disagree about it at this point.

 

[cstu]

The good news for the Chargers is that next year they'll have Rivers and the rest of the division will have Carr, Alex Smith, and Osweiler/a rookie.

Unfortunately, Luck is going to run the conference long after Rivers is retired.

 

[duaneok66]

by the way, this is the best thread going. There are several knowledgeable guys in here that provide great reading. Thanks to all.

 

[Freelove]

The good news for the Chargers is that next year they'll have Rivers and the rest of the division will have Carr, Alex Smith, and Osweiler/a rookie.

Unfortunately, Luck is going to run the conference long after Rivers is retired.

As much as I like Rivers, I don't think this division is nearly as pushover-y as you seem to imply, QB-wise. Between the perennial underrating of Alex Smith, and the utterly baffling community-wide dismissal of Derek Carr -- who after a shockingly strong rookie year, did nothing but improve every target he has available to him by orders of magnitude, and then improve his offensive line for good measure -- I don't think there's a more mis-evaluated division in all of fantasy football. But yeah, Osweiler's a nothing.

 

[Tau837]

San Diego Chargers, Please Cut RB Donald Brown

Agree 100%, as I have posted since they signed him. At minimum, he should take a pay cut in order to make the roster.

 

[cstu]

The good news for the Chargers is that next year they'll have Rivers and the rest of the division will have Carr, Alex Smith, and Osweiler/a rookie.

Unfortunately, Luck is going to run the conference long after Rivers is retired.

As much as I like Rivers, I don't think this division is nearly as pushover-y as you seem to imply, QB-wise. Between the perennial underrating of Alex Smith, and the utterly baffling community-wide dismissal of Derek Carr -- who after a shockingly strong rookie year, did nothing but improve every target he has available to him by orders of magnitude, and then improve his offensive line for good measure -- I don't think there's a more mis-evaluated division in all of fantasy football. But yeah, Osweiler's a nothing.

I'm not implying Smith is bad, but he doesn't strike fear into teams. Carr's got potential but a lot to prove, we'll see how he does with Cooper.

 

[BoltBacker]

San Diego Chargers, Please Cut RB Donald Brown

Agree 100%, as I have posted since they signed him. At minimum, he should take a pay cut in order to make the roster.

I don't know. The article kind of misses the point that it doesn't really matter how much he gets paid, it matters how much they could save by cutting him.

If they would use that money to sign Pierre Thomas or if they had drafted some of those UFA's I talked about at the time of the draft I would be all for it but I think the team would just end up with one of the no-names they seem to prefer instead.

I would like to see Brown run behind the new line. I am guessing both Brown and Oliver will magically look much better for as long as this OL stays healthy.

 

[Gr00vus]

I know it's not a ton of reps but I'm underwhelmed by the performance of both first string offensive and defensive lines after 2 preseason games.

Emanuel looks like he should make the squad, he's getting himself into positon to make positive plays often enough even if he isn't always finishing them.

Between Ingram, Attaochu and Philion they might be able to generate a pass rush. Maybe throw Law into that mix. Won't matter much if their run D and interior pass coverage continues to suck.

They'll have some interesting choices to make with the WRs. I think they need to find a way to hang on to Williams and Herndon. Williams nees to work on his hands. Both look like they could be playmakers. I think Inman might be hitting the bricks. I have no idea what the cap hit would be like, but if it were me I'd consider cutting Jacoby Jones and letting Herndon handle returns.

Sorensen has a laser cannon for an arm. Not sure about the rest of his game, but he was making some pretty crazy throws tonight. I think he threw it like 30 yards downfield a couple of times while fading away off his back foot. Just pure arm strength.

It's always fun to get excited by the back end of the roster guys in preseason, but we know most of them wash out. In the meantime the starters aren't exactly blowing me away. I keep hearing that the Chargers are lots of pundits' pick to surprise (in a good way). I'm not seeing it. Maybe they're just banking on the rest of the division sucking.

Glad they signed Rivers to an extension. He should retire never having played for anyone but the Chargers. If they could just put a high quality team around him, he'd win a super bowl.

ETA: I think Novak should be worried about his roster spot. Lambo absolutely nailed both his FG attempts and he's light years better than Novak on kick offs. If the Chargers don't keep Lambo, I'm pretty sure he'll get the kicking job with one of the other NFL squads. If it were me, I'd keep Lambo and cut Novak.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I know it's not a ton of reps but I'm underwhelmed by the performance of both first string offensive and defensive lines after 2 preseason games.

Emanuel looks like he should make the squad, he's getting himself into positon to make positive plays often enough even if he isn't always finishing them.

Between Ingram, Attaochu and Philion they might be able to generate a pass rush. Maybe throw Law into that mix. Won't matter much if their run D and interior pass coverage continues to suck.

They'll have some interesting choices to make with the WRs. I think they need to find a way to hang on to Williams and Herndon. Williams nees to work on his hands. Both look like they could be playmakers. I think Inman might be hitting the bricks. I have no idea what the cap hit would be like, but if it were me I'd consider cutting Jacoby Jones and letting Herndon handle returns.

Sorensen has a laser cannon for an arm. Not sure about the rest of his game, but he was making some pretty crazy throws tonight. I think he threw it like 30 yards downfield a couple of times while fading away off his back foot. Just pure arm strength.

It's always fun to get excited by the back end of the roster guys in preseason, but we know most of them wash out. In the meantime the starters aren't exactly blowing me away. I keep hearing that the Chargers are lots of pundits' pick to surprise (in a good way). I'm not seeing it. Maybe they're just banking on the rest of the division sucking.

Glad they signed Rivers to an extension. He should retire never having played for anyone but the Chargers. If they could just put a high quality team around him, he'd win a super bowl.

ETA: I think Novak should be worried about his roster spot. Lambo absolutely nailed both his FG attempts and he's light years better than Novak on kick offs. If the Chargers don't keep Lambo, I'm pretty sure he'll get the kicking job with one of the other NFL squads. If it were me, I'd keep Lambo and cut Novak.

yeah Im with you, I think its going to be a long season

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Emanuel looks like he should make the squad, he's getting himself into positon to make positive plays often enough even if he isn't always finishing them.

He'll do more than make the squad. He'll get significant playing time rotating in with Ingram and Attaochu.

 

[Tau837]

2015 San Diego Chargers: Mid-Preseason Observations

Branden Oliver should be the team's primary rusher... For now, Branden Oliver provides more stability on an every down basis than MGIII.

The offensive line may take time to come together... but expect there to be much more up than down as the games pile up. This group has a chance to be truly great, especially when it comes to run blocking.

Mike Nolan is a wizard... Donald Butler playing aggressively? Jerry Attaouchu setting the edge? Melvin Ingram with a Dwight Freeney-esque spin move? What is happening? ...I am giving the credit to new linebackers coach Mike Nolan, who seems to be doing a great job.

Get used to the defensive line rotation... I'm not confident that Kendall Reyes is even the team's fifth best defensive lineman, but with a constant rotation I have become less upset with the idea of him as a starter.

The Chargers have zero chance without Philip Rivers... Knock on wood about a thousand times, but please stay healthy number 17.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Starting Oliver over Gordon because of 6 carries would be asinine.

 

[Tau837]

Starting Oliver over Gordon because of 6 carries would be asinine.

Not saying he is correct in his assertion, but I'm pretty sure he is basing his opinion on the entirety of training camp and preseason for both players, not just the 6 carries Gordon had in preseason game 1.

 

[Tau837]

Five good San Diego Chargers questions with Football Outsiders

2. Has anyone calculated the number of points or wins squandered over the two seasons by timid coaching?

We don't have that specifically calculated, but we have an Aggressiveness Index that measures coaches on fourth-down decisions, adjusted for things like field position, yards to go and scoring margin. McCoy ranked 27th in 2013 and 30th last season, so he's certainly been conservative for a team that has played a lot of close games.

I personally lost a lot of faith in McCoy when he chose to punt on a fourth-and-4 from the 50-yard line against the Patriots last year with 6:28 remaining and the Chargers down 23-14. Keep in mind Nick Novak was the punter after the injury to Mike Scifres. That was gutless coaching, and naturally the Patriots ran the clock down to 2:05 and made McCoy burn all three timeouts before getting the ball back. You have to show more courage than that, especially against a team like the Patriots, who have given the Chargers so many problems over the years.

3. Given FOA 2015 updated the formula for a team from 3:3:1 (offense, defense, ST) to 4:3:1, does the drafting of Melvin Gordon in the 1st round look any better in retrospect?

Ha, but what If the increase to four is because of the increased importance with the passing game these days? Honestly, the nicest thing we can say so far about the Gordon pick is that it's not as bad as St. Louis taking Todd Gurley at No. 10. There's no Tre Mason in San Diego, though that doesn't mean the Chargers haven't been doing a lot wrong at this position. Taking a first-round back like Ryan Mathews in 2010 meant passing on talent like Earl Thomas and Jason Pierre-Paul. While it's true that many of the most prolific running backs in NFL history were first-round picks, you can still get a very good player later. Le'Veon Bell, Eddie Lacy, Jeremy Hill and LeSean McCoy were all recent second-round picks. Jamaal Charles and DeMarco Murray went in the third. That's mostly the list of the best backs in the game now not named Adrian Peterson and Marshawn Lynch. Those two guys, drafted in 2007, are really the last first-round studs at running back.

Ameer Abdullah went to Detroit six picks after the Chargers selected Denzel Perryman in the second round. Is Gordon really going to offer that much of an improvement over what Abdullah could have done? Then the Chargers could have paired up Keenan Allen with Nelson Agholor or Breshad Perriman. Pair Jason Verrett with Kevin Johnson or Marcus Peters as the cornerback duo of the future. Make Cameron Erving the permanent replacement to Nick Hardwick at center. That all seems rather preferable to taking a running back who isn't even a dynamic receiver, which is a big part of Rivers' pressure management.

Danny Woodhead's the receiver/third-down back, Branden Oliver has been a solid find, and the Chargers could be paying Donald Brown a nice sum to get those few touches you pay someone like Shaun Draughn the league minimum to carry out. It's just not a great use of resources. Gordon has to be special quickly to justify the pick.

Agree with this perspective on both of these points.

 

[Gr00vus]

Five good San Diego Chargers questions with Football Outsiders

2. Has anyone calculated the number of points or wins squandered over the two seasons by timid coaching?

We don't have that specifically calculated, but we have an Aggressiveness Index that measures coaches on fourth-down decisions, adjusted for things like field position, yards to go and scoring margin. McCoy ranked 27th in 2013 and 30th last season, so he's certainly been conservative for a team that has played a lot of close games.

I personally lost a lot of faith in McCoy when he chose to punt on a fourth-and-4 from the 50-yard line against the Patriots last year with 6:28 remaining and the Chargers down 23-14. Keep in mind Nick Novak was the punter after the injury to Mike Scifres. That was gutless coaching, and naturally the Patriots ran the clock down to 2:05 and made McCoy burn all three timeouts before getting the ball back. You have to show more courage than that, especially against a team like the Patriots, who have given the Chargers so many problems over the years.

3. Given FOA 2015 updated the formula for a team from 3:3:1 (offense, defense, ST) to 4:3:1, does the drafting of Melvin Gordon in the 1st round look any better in retrospect?

Ha, but what If the increase to four is because of the increased importance with the passing game these days? Honestly, the nicest thing we can say so far about the Gordon pick is that it's not as bad as St. Louis taking Todd Gurley at No. 10. There's no Tre Mason in San Diego, though that doesn't mean the Chargers haven't been doing a lot wrong at this position. Taking a first-round back like Ryan Mathews in 2010 meant passing on talent like Earl Thomas and Jason Pierre-Paul. While it's true that many of the most prolific running backs in NFL history were first-round picks, you can still get a very good player later. Le'Veon Bell, Eddie Lacy, Jeremy Hill and LeSean McCoy were all recent second-round picks. Jamaal Charles and DeMarco Murray went in the third. That's mostly the list of the best backs in the game now not named Adrian Peterson and Marshawn Lynch. Those two guys, drafted in 2007, are really the last first-round studs at running back.

Ameer Abdullah went to Detroit six picks after the Chargers selected Denzel Perryman in the second round. Is Gordon really going to offer that much of an improvement over what Abdullah could have done? Then the Chargers could have paired up Keenan Allen with Nelson Agholor or Breshad Perriman. Pair Jason Verrett with Kevin Johnson or Marcus Peters as the cornerback duo of the future. Make Cameron Erving the permanent replacement to Nick Hardwick at center. That all seems rather preferable to taking a running back who isn't even a dynamic receiver, which is a big part of Rivers' pressure management.

Danny Woodhead's the receiver/third-down back, Branden Oliver has been a solid find, and the Chargers could be paying Donald Brown a nice sum to get those few touches you pay someone like Shaun Draughn the league minimum to carry out. It's just not a great use of resources. Gordon has to be special quickly to justify the pick.

Agree with this perspective on both of these points.

What great insight. If only people in this thread had been making the same exact points.

Oh, wait, we did.

Hey, it's a pass crazy league, we've got a scrap heap WR corps, we run a 3-4 D and our defensive line sucks, we struggle generating a pass rush, we've got revolving doors at multiple offensive line spots - let's trade up to draft a running back!

Ultimately it's all on the Spanoses - they don't know how to run a successful franchise. Everything else stems from that. I wish there was a way to force them to sell.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I agree with the take on point 2, but not with point 3.

- We have our center of the present and future, we don't need Cameron Erving.

- Gordon > Abdullah

- We needed an influx of talent at RB far more than a rookie WR, who at best would have been #4 on he depth chart

- The idea of going into 2015 with Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Shaun Draughn as the RB stable is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Tau837]

I agree with the take on point 2, but not with point 3.

- We have our center of the present and future, we don't need Cameron Erving.

- Gordon > Abdullah

- We needed an influx of talent at RB far more than a rookie WR, who at best would have been #4 on he depth chart

- The idea of going into 2015 with Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Shaun Draughn as the RB stable is beyond ridiculous.

You seem to be missing the larger point. Erving and Abdullah were simply examples. As I posted at the time, I felt DT/NT was the right pick at 1.17.

It isn't a question of whether Gordon > Abdullah. It is a question of whether or not Gordon and Perryman are better than the following: different first round pick this year + Abdullah + 4th round pick this year + 5th round pick next year. Unless Gordon is an All Pro caliber RB, the answer to that is no.

Or substitute another 2nd round pick and a RB in the 3rd round instead of Mager if you don't like the idea of pairing Abdullah with Oliver and Woodhead. Etc.

Not picking Gordon did not mean the only alternative was to go into 2015 with just Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Draughn.

 

[bulger2holt]

I was pretty high on Woodhead in a PPR, but after watching Oliver, I think he gets plenty of touches and eats into Woodheads production.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I agree with the take on point 2, but not with point 3.

- We have our center of the present and future, we don't need Cameron Erving.

- Gordon > Abdullah

- We needed an influx of talent at RB far more than a rookie WR, who at best would have been #4 on he depth chart

- The idea of going into 2015 with Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Shaun Draughn as the RB stable is beyond ridiculous.

You seem to be missing the larger point. Erving and Abdullah were simply examples. As I posted at the time, I felt DT/NT was the right pick at 1.17.

It isn't a question of whether Gordon > Abdullah. It is a question of whether or not Gordon and Perryman are better than the following: different first round pick this year + Abdullah + 4th round pick this year + 5th round pick next year. Unless Gordon is an All Pro caliber RB, the answer to that is no.

Or substitute another 2nd round pick and a RB in the 3rd round instead of Mager if you don't like the idea of pairing Abdullah with Oliver and Woodhead. Etc.

Not picking Gordon did not mean the only alternative was to go into 2015 with just Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Draughn.

What if Abdullah sucks? A 5th rounder in next year's draft isn't worth much

Gordon doesn't have to be an all pro to justify the move, that's silly talk. There are far too many variables involved to make that kind of comment. What if Gordon isn't all pro, but goes for 1000 yards and 10 TDs, while Watt and Carrethers make huge jumps, while Abdullah busts?

 

[cstu]

You seem to be missing the larger point. Erving and Abdullah were simply examples. As I posted at the time, I felt DT/NT was the right pick at 1.17.

It isn't a question of whether Gordon > Abdullah. It is a question of whether or not Gordon and Perryman are better than the following: different first round pick this year + Abdullah + 4th round pick this year + 5th round pick next year. Unless Gordon is an All Pro caliber RB, the answer to that is no.

Or substitute another 2nd round pick and a RB in the 3rd round instead of Mager if you don't like the idea of pairing Abdullah with Oliver and Woodhead. Etc.

Not picking Gordon did not mean the only alternative was to go into 2015 with just Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Draughn.

What if Abdullah sucks? A 5th rounder in next year's draft isn't worth much

Gordon doesn't have to be an all pro to justify the move, that's silly talk. There are far too many variables involved to make that kind of comment. What if Gordon isn't all pro, but goes for 1000 yards and 10 TDs, while Watt and Carrethers make huge jumps, while Abdullah busts?

After Mathews I would be happy if he just stayed healthy.

 

[Tau837]

I agree with the take on point 2, but not with point 3.

- We have our center of the present and future, we don't need Cameron Erving.

- Gordon > Abdullah

- We needed an influx of talent at RB far more than a rookie WR, who at best would have been #4 on he depth chart

- The idea of going into 2015 with Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Shaun Draughn as the RB stable is beyond ridiculous.

You seem to be missing the larger point. Erving and Abdullah were simply examples. As I posted at the time, I felt DT/NT was the right pick at 1.17.

It isn't a question of whether Gordon > Abdullah. It is a question of whether or not Gordon and Perryman are better than the following: different first round pick this year + Abdullah + 4th round pick this year + 5th round pick next year. Unless Gordon is an All Pro caliber RB, the answer to that is no.

Or substitute another 2nd round pick and a RB in the 3rd round instead of Mager if you don't like the idea of pairing Abdullah with Oliver and Woodhead. Etc.

Not picking Gordon did not mean the only alternative was to go into 2015 with just Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Draughn.

What if Abdullah sucks? A 5th rounder in next year's draft isn't worth much

Gordon doesn't have to be an all pro to justify the move, that's silly talk. There are far too many variables involved to make that kind of comment. What if Gordon isn't all pro, but goes for 1000 yards and 10 TDs, while Watt and Carrethers make huge jumps, while Abdullah busts?

Any draft pick can bust, including Gordon. Yes, the move for Gordon could work out. I hope it does. But I don't think it was the right move. I agree with the author I quoted -- it was not the best use of resources given the needs of the team and the talent available in the draft.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I agree with the take on point 2, but not with point 3.

- We have our center of the present and future, we don't need Cameron Erving.

- Gordon > Abdullah

- We needed an influx of talent at RB far more than a rookie WR, who at best would have been #4 on he depth chart

- The idea of going into 2015 with Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Shaun Draughn as the RB stable is beyond ridiculous.

You seem to be missing the larger point. Erving and Abdullah were simply examples. As I posted at the time, I felt DT/NT was the right pick at 1.17.

It isn't a question of whether Gordon > Abdullah. It is a question of whether or not Gordon and Perryman are better than the following: different first round pick this year + Abdullah + 4th round pick this year + 5th round pick next year. Unless Gordon is an All Pro caliber RB, the answer to that is no.

Or substitute another 2nd round pick and a RB in the 3rd round instead of Mager if you don't like the idea of pairing Abdullah with Oliver and Woodhead. Etc.

Not picking Gordon did not mean the only alternative was to go into 2015 with just Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Draughn.

What if Abdullah sucks? A 5th rounder in next year's draft isn't worth much

Gordon doesn't have to be an all pro to justify the move, that's silly talk. There are far too many variables involved to make that kind of comment. What if Gordon isn't all pro, but goes for 1000 yards and 10 TDs, while Watt and Carrethers make huge jumps, while Abdullah busts?

Any draft pick can bust, including Gordon. Yes, the move for Gordon could work out. I hope it does. But I don't think it was the right move. I agree with the author I quoted -- it was not the best use of resources given the needs of the team and the talent available in the draft.

That's a reasonable take. I disagree, but it's certainly fair.

I thought you overreached with the "Gordon has to be an All Pro" stuff. We're good.

 

[Gr00vus]

We're good.

Which is more than we can say for the Chargers right now.

 

[Tau837]

Watched the first half of the 3rd preseason game last night. My impressions:

1. Rivers looked good.

2. Stevie Johnson and Woodhead stood out as (a) being very involved and (b) playing well. IMO they both have fantasy sleeper value.

3. Gordon looked better than his numbers. I was surprised at one point when they showed that he had 8 carries for just 15 yards, because it seemed he had played better than that. He got hit in the backfield a few times on plays where there was nothing he could do, and that affected his numbers.

4. The combination of #2 and #3 re-emphasized that Gordon's snaps will be limited by Woodhead, something I have been expecting all along.

5. The pass protection was bad. Rivers was sacked twice; got hit two other times as he was throwing, leading to incompletions; and he threw under pressure a couple other times. Franklin did not play, so I guess we can only hope that him playing would have helped and the new OL will gel and improve quickly.

6. The defense looked quite good.

At this point, my only concern is the OL play. If it improves, the Chargers could easily have a top 5 offense, and, if so, their defense should be good enough that they can win 11+ games.

 

[BoltBacker]

I thought you overreached with the "Gordon has to be an All Pro" stuff. We're good.

But don't you think the only reason to draft a RB in the top half of the first round is because you think he is a pro-bowl level talent? If you are giving up multiple picks along with that first rounder wouldn't he need to be better than that?

 

[BoltBacker]

- The idea of going into 2015 with Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Shaun Draughn as the RB stable is beyond ridiculous.

Completely agree with this.

There was a world of options between spending three picks on Gordon or going with that group. Cameron Artis-Payne, Zack Zenner, AND Michael Dyer could have been had for a 5th round draft pick. Maybe fifth round draft picks are worth something after all.

 

[BoltBacker]

Does anyone know if this is true?

"

PUBLISHED FRI AUG 28 9:48:17 A.M. PT 2015
(RotoWire)Gordon (ankle) worked in the Chargers' goal-line package for the first time this week, ESPN.com reports. Analysis: Despite his late introduction to the goal-line offense, Gordon is the obvious favorite to handle such situations once the season begins. Danny Woodhead figures to get most of the passing-down snaps, but Gordon should otherwise have every opportunity to lead the San Diego backfield, and he figures to see extensive action in Saturday's preseason game against the Seahawks. Also worth noting: Chargers running backs coach Ollie Wilson said Gordon is a willing and capable pass-blocker, but Wilson did suggest that Gordon still needs work when it comes to reading his blocking assignments.

"

The first time Gordon was introduced to the goal-line offense was August 28th?

 

[tommyGunZ]

- The idea of going into 2015 with Oliver, Woodhead, Brown, and Shaun Draughn as the RB stable is beyond ridiculous.

Completely agree with this.

There was a world of options between spending three picks on Gordon or going with that group. Cameron Artis-Payne, Zack Zenner, AND Michael Dyer could have been had for a 5th round draft pick. Maybe fifth round draft picks are worth something after all.

How many of those guys do you think will be in the league 3 years from now? 1? 0?

 

[tommyGunZ]

Does anyone know if this is true?

"

PUBLISHED FRI AUG 28 9:48:17 A.M. PT 2015

(RotoWire)Gordon (ankle) worked in the Chargers' goal-line package for the first time this week, ESPN.com reports.

Analysis: Despite his late introduction to the goal-line offense, Gordon is the obvious favorite to handle such situations once the season begins. Danny Woodhead figures to get most of the passing-down snaps, but Gordon should otherwise have every opportunity to lead the San Diego backfield, and he figures to see extensive action in Saturday's preseason game against the Seahawks. Also worth noting: Chargers running backs coach Ollie Wilson said Gordon is a willing and capable pass-blocker, but Wilson did suggest that Gordon still needs work when it comes to reading his blocking assignments.

"

The first time Gordon was introduced to the goal-line offense was August 28th?

In fairness, the article was posted on the 28th, but the note references "this week", likely referring to earlier in the week.

Overall your point stands however, and I'm not sure I buy it, unless the Chargers have spent virtually zero time working on goal line packages until last week.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I thought you overreached with the "Gordon has to be an All Pro" stuff. We're good.

But don't you think the only reason to draft a RB in the top half of the first round is because you think he is a pro-bowl level talent? If you are giving up multiple picks along with that first rounder wouldn't he need to be better than that?

There are lots of reasons to draft a player in the middle of the first round. And I think the hope is that every guy you draft in the first few rounds ends up making pro bowls. Certainly the higher the pick the higher the expectation.

I think the Chargers expect Gordon to be a pro bowl caliber RB once he gets his feet wet and is fully engaged in the offense. I think the reason they moved up a couple of slots in the 1st to grab him was due to several factors, including (but not limited to): the crater sized hole on their roster at RB, Gordon's talent, & the relatively quick impact a stud RB can have on an offense.

With regard to that last point, I think Telesco sees the Rivers window as having 3-4 more years, and the most obvious and impactful weapon that Phillip is missing that could change the offenses fortunes is hitting a HR at grabbing a franchise RB. I've said it before, but if you were to give Rivers a RB good enough to force defenses to play honest the next few years, this offense will be elite enough to compete for a championship.

 

[Gr00vus]

With regard to that last point, I think Telesco sees the Rivers window as having 3-4 more years, and the most obvious and impactful weapon that Phillip is missing that could change the offenses fortunes is hitting a HR at grabbing a franchise RB. I've said it before, but if you were to give Rivers a RB good enough to force defenses to play honest the next few years, this offense will be elite enough to compete for a championship.

What Rivers needs is an above average to great offensive line. That's what makes an elite offense (along with the QB). The other "skill" spots are nice to haves - running back most of all. If Telesco really believes what you're saying he should be fired.

 

[tommyGunZ]

With regard to that last point, I think Telesco sees the Rivers window as having 3-4 more years, and the most obvious and impactful weapon that Phillip is missing that could change the offenses fortunes is hitting a HR at grabbing a franchise RB. I've said it before, but if you were to give Rivers a RB good enough to force defenses to play honest the next few years, this offense will be elite enough to compete for a championship.

What Rivers needs is an above average to great offensive line. That's what makes an elite offense (along with the QB). The other "skill" spots are nice to haves - running back most of all. If Telesco really believes what you're saying he should be fired.

Telesco spent big $ on Franklin (with the added bonus of hurting the Donks) and also brought in Barksdale. We already had 3 pieces (Dunlap, Watt, and Fluker) that are fine.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Watched the first half of the 3rd preseason game last night. My impressions:

1. Rivers looked good.

2. Stevie Johnson and Woodhead stood out as (a) being very involved and (b) playing well. IMO they both have fantasy sleeper value.

3. Gordon looked better than his numbers. I was surprised at one point when they showed that he had 8 carries for just 15 yards, because it seemed he had played better than that. He got hit in the backfield a few times on plays where there was nothing he could do, and that affected his numbers.

4. The combination of #2 and #3 re-emphasized that Gordon's snaps will be limited by Woodhead, something I have been expecting all along.

5. The pass protection was bad. Rivers was sacked twice; got hit two other times as he was throwing, leading to incompletions; and he threw under pressure a couple other times. Franklin did not play, so I guess we can only hope that him playing would have helped and the new OL will gel and improve quickly.

6. The defense looked quite good.

At this point, my only concern is the OL play. If it improves, the Chargers could easily have a top 5 offense, and, if so, their defense should be good enough that they can win 11+ games.

Excellent post. I'm hoping to watch the game tonight - I'm Direct TV so I'm currently screwed but the CBS8 debacle.

Love the fact that Johnson and Rivers seem to be forming a bond. All reports are that Ingram looks spectacular, and Verrett simply needs to stay healthy to make the pro bowl.

If Verrett is as good as hyped, that's the kind of draft steal that propels already solid teams to championship level contenders.

 

[Gr00vus]

With regard to that last point, I think Telesco sees the Rivers window as having 3-4 more years, and the most obvious and impactful weapon that Phillip is missing that could change the offenses fortunes is hitting a HR at grabbing a franchise RB. I've said it before, but if you were to give Rivers a RB good enough to force defenses to play honest the next few years, this offense will be elite enough to compete for a championship.

What Rivers needs is an above average to great offensive line. That's what makes an elite offense (along with the QB). The other "skill" spots are nice to haves - running back most of all. If Telesco really believes what you're saying he should be fired.

Telesco spent big $ on Franklin (with the added bonus of hurting the Donks) and also brought in Barksdale. We already had 3 pieces (Dunlap, Watt, and Fluker) that are fine.

I'm not comfortable saying they're fine. They certainly haven't looked fine so far this preseason - in fact they've looked pretty poor. They're shuffling around scrap heap guys and a failed 1st round pick. It's a criminal approach to putting protection in front of one of the best QBs in the game. Meanwhile they're laying out heavy resources on running backs and mediocre linebackers. It's, frankly, an idiotic approach to roster building.

 

[tommyGunZ]

With regard to that last point, I think Telesco sees the Rivers window as having 3-4 more years, and the most obvious and impactful weapon that Phillip is missing that could change the offenses fortunes is hitting a HR at grabbing a franchise RB. I've said it before, but if you were to give Rivers a RB good enough to force defenses to play honest the next few years, this offense will be elite enough to compete for a championship.

What Rivers needs is an above average to great offensive line. That's what makes an elite offense (along with the QB). The other "skill" spots are nice to haves - running back most of all. If Telesco really believes what you're saying he should be fired.

Telesco spent big $ on Franklin (with the added bonus of hurting the Donks) and also brought in Barksdale. We already had 3 pieces (Dunlap, Watt, and Fluker) that are fine.

I'm not comfortable saying they're fine. They certainly haven't looked fine so far this preseason - in fact they've looked pretty poor. They're shuffling around scrap heap guys and a failed 1st round pick. It's a criminal approach to putting protection in front of one of the best QBs in the game. Meanwhile they're laying out heavy resources on running backs and mediocre linebackers. It's, frankly, an idiotic approach to roster building.

As we've discussed in previous threads, Telesco's track record (SSS aside) is extremely good. If you disagree that strongly, perhaps you should revisit your approach?

Telesco may or may not put together a Super Bowl roster, but I feel very confident that he is not an idiot, and he learned his approach from one of the best GM's ever.

 

[Bucky86]

What's this mediocre linebacker thing we're talking about? So far it seems like Telesco has been hitting with his LB picks pretty well so far...

eta: You can't put the injuries on him.

 

[BoltBacker]

Gunz, at what point would Gordon NOT be worth three draft picks? What is a stat line for the season where you would say he was a disappointment?

 

[Tau837]

With regard to that last point, I think Telesco sees the Rivers window as having 3-4 more years, and the most obvious and impactful weapon that Phillip is missing that could change the offenses fortunes is hitting a HR at grabbing a franchise RB. I've said it before, but if you were to give Rivers a RB good enough to force defenses to play honest the next few years, this offense will be elite enough to compete for a championship.

What Rivers needs is an above average to great offensive line. That's what makes an elite offense (along with the QB). The other "skill" spots are nice to haves - running back most of all. If Telesco really believes what you're saying he should be fired.

Telesco spent big $ on Franklin (with the added bonus of hurting the Donks) and also brought in Barksdale. We already had 3 pieces (Dunlap, Watt, and Fluker) that are fine.

I am cautiously optimistic the new OL will be improved. Franklin and Barksdale were good signings, but questions remain:

- We have already discussed in this thread that Fluker has been a below average RT in his career to date. We don't know for sure if he will be better at RG.

- We have already discussed in this thread that Watt never played center before last season and was below average at that position last year. I'm sure it is expected that he will improve, but we don't know that yet.

- We haven't seen any significant sample size from Barksdale yet, so we don't know if he will be better than Fluker has been at RT.

- We are assuming Dunlap and Franklin will carry over their good performances from last year, and that seems like a reasonable expectation.

The LG, C, RG, and RT positions will likely be improved in comparison to last season. But that is a really low bar. They could be improved and still be well below average. If that happens, it could be enough to scuttle the season, and that would be on Telesco. OL has been the #1 or possibly #2 (to DL) problems on the team since he arrived. If there isn't significant improvement this season, it is his fault.

 

[Tau837]

As we've discussed in previous threads, Telesco's track record (SSS aside) is extremely good. If you disagree that strongly, perhaps you should revisit your approach?

Telesco may or may not put together a Super Bowl roster, but I feel very confident that he is not an idiot, and he learned his approach from one of the best GM's ever.

Telesco's track record isn't long enough yet to conclude that it is extremely good (or otherwise). He has run three drafts and had success in drafting players that have stuck on a roster that lacked talent when he took over, but so far very few have been impact players, and there hasn't been enough time to effectively judge the impact on the team's performance. He has had mixed results in free agency and player contract management.

The reason we had the previous conversation about this in this thread was because I responded to a similarly rosy statement about Telesco's success from Maurile. He may turn out to be as successful as you guys have posted, but he hasn't done so yet and it could easily go the other way.

 

[Tau837]

What's this mediocre linebacker thing we're talking about? So far it seems like Telesco has been hitting with his LB picks pretty well so far...

eta: You can't put the injuries on him.

It's a bottom line business, and Telesco is accountable for results on the field. If the LB play has been below average (it certainly was last year), he is accountable for it. Every team has to deal with injuries.

 

[Tau837]

From Don't Panic About Melvin Gordon:

1st and 10 from the SD 20. 14:15 2Q. I-formation, 21 Personnel

Philip Rivers gets hammered after Gordon fails to pick up the blitzing linebacker. If you're going to be worried about one aspect of Gordon's game this is it. The Chargers went I-formation and tried to sell the run. The play didn't didn't even have the chance to work because Gordon doesn't make contact with the defender. In order for Gordon to grow as a runner, it is critical that he be able to contribute in the passing game both as a blocker and receiver. Otherwise Frank Reich is pretty much telegraphing that the Chargers are going to run the ball when No. 28 is in the game (which, if you've been paying attention, has been true so far this preseason and is one of the reasons Gordon's numbers are what they are.)

...

What you should take away from Gordon's preseason performance is that this is going to take time. Time for him to get used to the NFL, time for him to get used to the offensive line, the offensive line to get used to him, and the offensive line to get used to each other - because there are absolutely some concerning issues there.

Unfortunately, that was the positive take from Bolts from the Blue. This is the negative take: The San Diego Chargers Wasted Their Draft Pick.

 

[Milkman]

Just purely looking at the stats Green looks dead to Rivers. Even with Gates out. Are you guys expecting anything from this guy the first 4 games or is he just not that good?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Phil Taylor was cut by the brown. Claim him I say, give him a fresh start