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** Road To The 2018 Triple Crown - 5/10: Justy Back On (The) Track, Ruis Will Ship Bolty/Duck The Rain ** (3 Viewers)

Agree with you on Bolty OTB.  Love the 11 hole.  Can have Justify in his sights the whole way.  Espinoza is a master at the trip and can position horses perfectly.  Bolt wasn't pointed to the SA Derby and Justify was cranked.  He could definitely move forward in his 3rd start of the year.  It's just that Justify didn't really start running until the last 1/16.  Once he leveled off he dusted Bolt and the margin was only getting bigger.  I think if they run 10 races Justify wins 9.  I guess if something happens to Justify with a bad start or something Bolt can win it.  I'll probably have a saver win bet on him or on top to my other 3.

 
Some good stuff here.  Hofburg is supposedly working great and I wouldn't discount Baffert/Hollendorfer underneath for big prices horses who are bred for the distance. Could be key to big tri's/supers.

Average winning distance a tool for unearthing longshots

By Joe Nevills

Print

No group of racehorses goes under a stronger microscope than the field for the Kentucky Derby. But even under the heaviest scrutiny, many things remain unknown about the entries until they cross the finish line.

One of the biggest variables that can only be forecasted at this point is the ability to handle the Derby’s 1 1/4-mile distance. It’s a distance no horse in the field has faced, and one that many in the field will never see again in competition.

Because there is no prior form to help gauge which horses are the most capable of getting the 1 1/4 miles, a useful tool to determine each entry’s potential is measuring the average winning distance of the progeny of a horse’s sire and dam.

AWD numbers can provide a snapshot of a horse’s ability to pass on stamina to his or her offspring, independent of the reputation that names in a pedigree can carry. The higher a sire or dam’s AWD, the more likely their foals can handle a route of ground, because they’ve already shown they can produce it consistently.

The AWD figures can help identify a longer-priced horse capable of filling out exotics based on their ingrained stamina.

:: View a complete list of DRF resources and content related to the Kentucky Derby at Churchill Downs on Saturday, May 5

Horses who finished at or near the top of their race’s AWD rankings at double-digit odds include Derby runners-up Golden Soul (2013, 35-1) and Battle of Midway (2017, 33-1), 2013 Preakness winner Oxbow at 15-1, 2014 Belmont Stakes runner-up Commissioner at 28-1, and Belmont third-place finishers Keen Ice (2015, 17-1), Lani (2016, 12-1), and Patch (2017, 12-1).

Taking into account the comparative AWDs from the sires and dams of this year’s Derby field, a trio of mid- to long-priced runners stand out – Hofburg, Instilled Regard, and Solomini.

The parents of those three entries ranked no lower than fourth in their respective categories of sires and dams by the AWD of their offspring, giving them ideal crosses of past production toward distance capability compared with the other Derby runners.

Hofburg is by Tapit, who ranks second by AWD among this year’s Derby sire class at 7.58 furlongs, meaning the average distance of all the races won by Tapit foals levels out to about 7 1/2 furlongs. Though he’s still seeking his first Derby winner, Tapit has sired a trio of Belmont Stakes winners – Tonalist in 2014, Creator in 2016, and Tapwrit last year.

Soothing Touch, the dam of Hofburg, was third among the Derby broodmares, with her three winners succeeding at an average distance of 8.60 furlongs. Her first foal, the Empire Maker filly Emollient, is a Grade 1 winner at a 1 1/4 miles on the turf.

Instilled Regard is by Arch, who topped this year’s Derby sires with an AWD of 8.20 furlongs. Arch is the only sire in the field whose foals win at an average distance greater than a mile, nearly a half-furlong better than next-closest, Tapit. Arch’s high-end distance credentials are franked by Breeders’ Cup Classic winner Blame, along with Canadian Horse of the Year Arravale, who won at 1 1/4 miles on turf.

Enhancing, Instilled Regard’s dam, ranked fourth among the Derby broodmares with an AWD of 8.41 furlongs. That figure is due entirely to Instilled Regard, his dam’s only winner from two starters, who has won at up to 1 1/16 miles.

Solomini is a son of Curlin, who ranked third among the Derby sires with an AWD of 7.57 furlongs, just a hundredth of a furlong behind second-place Tapit. Curlin also sends out sons Good Magic and Vino Rosso, who finished tied for fourth on the overall AWD rankings with Free Drop Billy.

Curlin is a proven classic sire, having been represented by a classic winner or classic-placed runner in each of his first five crops, including 2013 Belmont Stakes winner Palace Malice and 2016 Preakness winner Exaggerator.

Solomini is out of Surf Song, who posted an AWD of 8.62 furlongs to rank second among the mares. Of Surf Song’s five winners from seven foals to race, Solomini is the only one to have won a race at a distance shorter than 1 1/16 miles, having won a maiden race at 6 1/2 furlongs. However, Solomini also is the only stakes-placed runner among his siblings.

Trensa, the dam of Free Drop Billy, led this year’s Derby broodmares with an AWD of 9.61 furlongs, nearly the classic distance on its own. Her first foal, the Curlin mare Trensita, won her maiden at 1 3/8 miles, while Hawkbill, by Kitten’s Joy, has won seven times at 10 furlongs or longer, including the English Group 1 Coral-Eclipse Stakes and the Group 1 Dubai Sheema Classic.

Longshots Firenze Fire and Promises Fulfilled tied for last by their final AWD rankings, with their sires and dams each finishing last or second-to-last in their categories.

http://www.drf.com/news/average-winning-distance-tool-unearthing-longshots

 
Some good stuff here.  Hofburg is supposedly working great and I wouldn't discount Baffert/Hollendorfer underneath for big prices horses who are bred for the distance. Could be key to big tri's/supers.

Hofburg is by Tapit, who ranks second by AWD among this year’s Derby sire class at 7.58 furlongs, meaning the average distance of all the races won by Tapit foals levels out to about 7 1/2 furlongs. Though he’s still seeking his first Derby winner, Tapit has sired a trio of Belmont Stakes winners – Tonalist in 2014, Creator in 2016, and Tapwrit last year.

Soothing Touch, the dam of Hofburg, was third among the Derby broodmares, with her three winners succeeding at an average distance of 8.60 furlongs. Her first foal, the Empire Maker filly Emollient, is a Grade 1 winner at a 1 1/4 miles on the turf.
he finished Fla. Derby fresher than Audible ... was a bit concerned by the winner's gallop out, didn't look as energetic as the Hof ... 

wasn't much left to pass, as PF and Strike Power went friggin' BANZAI! from the gate, and Catholic Boy was bleeding out - Mississippi had the lead at the top of the stretch, then Aud took care of biz, and Hof mopped the remains.  was not the strongest (nor tactically proficient) field in retrospect, but that close keeps impressing me - like he wanted to see that extra 1/2 furlong - really juiced to see this one stretch it out a bit more.

 
I have somewhere between 300-400 pounds on Justify at 5-1 so in the money a little there 

I may focus on other horses in the exotics.

Love the commentary here--keep it up!

 
oh, and on the Justy/Bolt exacta play ... you just know a ton of jamokes are gonna play the 7/11 just for chips and giggles - regardless of the horses, that combo gets banged constantly for it's "luck" factor ( EHHH, DUNNO MUCH HERE, SO GIMME THE 7/11 EXACTA!) ... now let those same casual plunkers know that they are also getting 2 of the top horses in the gig along with their "play" and ... it will probably be the least lucrative exacta combo payout for this particular Derby. 

 
Favorite got a good draw, should make it 6 years of the favorite winning in a row.

It's too bad the triple Crown isn't a real circuit where all 20 horses that run this aren't required to run all three races to make it better for fans

 
as the title change says, all info here - and for you early lot:  PPs

now on to grading the post positions based on how i see each entry's strengths:

1. Firenze Fire 50-1  i have been anticipating his drop outta here for a couple weeks, this draw might be the final nail F

2. Free Drop Billy 30-1  Albarado can sit the "Golden Rail" trip up from here, all that speed right on his flank - this year's LaL? B

3. Promises Fulfilled 30-1 expect :22ish/:44ish splits. as i said yesterday, his draw was crucial to race setup. he's the rabbit/Justy's carrot A

4. Flameaway 30-1  see above, gonna be right on PF's rear for as long as his heart allows. A

5. Audible 8-1  can duck in behind the pace, and cruise to his kick - no excuses, he's in a prime spot. A

6. Good Magic 12-1  tactical speed specialist, pointed to this one since BC Juvey - has top class company sandwich to chew on. B

7. Justify 3-1  been said already, but, wow on this seven hole ... a clean break and it could be lights out. early.  A+

8. Lone Sailor 50-1  has one move, and it will be late ... tote lighter upper for the adventurous B 

9. Hofburg 20-1  see above, but much less on the tote fireworks. shaping as the "wiseguy" long shot, expect a bang down by post time B

10. My Boy Jack 30-1  completes the stone closer three pack. if he's 18-20th at the 1/2 it's a good sign that Kent is rationing properly.  B

11. Bolt d'Oro 8-1  see above posts about this cat - all closers to his inside, will break into wherever Victor pleases. catbird seat.  A 

12. Enticed 30-1  gotta think he hustles in behind PF/Flamey/Justy trio.  will excite for 1/2 mile C

13. Bravazo 50-1  will likely follow Enticed, and will likely fade as well  C 

14. Mendelssohn 5-1  no idea how they're gonna place him.  if the beast from Meydan shows up, expect stalking Justy's ### B

15. Instilled Regard 50-1  is there enough left to come late? that S.A. Derby was dog####. a steaming pile.  C

16. Magnum Moon 6-1  drifted in both Reb/Arky - has not hit 100bsf yet, but steadily rising.  has a hustle out spot here, but not horrible. B-

17. Solomini 30-1  right on top of prep nemesis MM - was hoping for a more mid pack slot - 17 is the only number to never win. D

18. Vino Rosso 12-1  will get the pace he needs, has to work a bit from here to get his spot, he's not as deep a closer as the others C

19. Noble Indy 30-1  brutal for his style, especially considering the hot pace is all well inside. mail this mutha in, no shot to run his race F

20. Combatant 50-1  if this were a 30 horse field he woulda drew the 30 hole - been outside all prep season, so no stranger to this. will still be coming late. C- 

eight definite tosses from my trifecta tix: FF, PF, Flamey  :( , Enticed, Bravazo, Solomini, IR, NI - pretty much the same lot i had tossed prior to the draw ... MM/Combatant/LS on a very precarious bubble.  hate to chuck closers in a race that should be perfectly conducive to their style. but can't use 'em all, and Combatant's post is slight pause for concern here.  

it's only Wednesday ... four more days of this puzzle - won't be finalizing 'til last minute, it appears.

 
I play the KD every year, but I am definitely not a handicapper.  I know the wiseguy horse is Hofburg, but I'm not sold.  He didn't have a great trip, was cut off from where he wanted to go and still made a late run, but he was being pushed hard and Audible made it look easy.  I MIGHT play him in the super, but probably tossing.  

 
I play the KD every year, but I am definitely not a handicapper.  I know the wiseguy horse is Hofburg, but I'm not sold.  He didn't have a great trip, was cut off from where he wanted to go and still made a late run, but he was being pushed hard and Audible made it look easy.  I MIGHT play him in the super, but probably tossing.  
stick with your gut, best handicapping tool there is  :thumbup:

but i (personally) wouldn't leave him off any of the underneaths - this will be only his fourth career start, and he has the breeding to move forward at the classic distances. 

how much are you spreading in your super?   are you singling on top?

 
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While long time records are made to be broken (Astros or Cubs for instance), I don't like to ask for it to happen with a chalk, so the 3-1 gets box/underneath action only. After that I may just punt and throw together some of the other most likely types. The inside four and outside four look a little shaky so I'm thinking of a number between 5 and 16.

 
While long time records are made to be broken (Astros or Cubs for instance), I don't like to ask for it to happen with a chalk, so the 3-1 gets box/underneath action only. After that I may just punt and throw together some of the other most likely types. The inside four and outside four look a little shaky so I'm thinking of a number between 5 and 16.
... or a 1 seed losing to a 16 (Virginia  :bye: )

but i hear ya ...  i would also rather have Justy at 3/1 than MM at 6/1 - if someone (Kreskin? Criswell? Art Bell?) told me prior to the race that the curse of Apollo is gonna go down this year, i'd lay 85%  it woukd be Justy (hypothetical, of course).

MM may have more value on the ticket, but i am not even sold on using him underneath yet  :shrug:  (visions of Malagacy/Gemologist ... the consecutive lane drifts). 

your sweet spot seems to be Audi/Bolty/GM

 
now on to grading the post positions based on how i see each entry's strengths:

1. Firenze Fire 50-1  i have been anticipating his drop outta here for a couple weeks, this draw might be the final nail F

Instant toss.

2. Free Drop Billy 30-1  Albarado can sit the "Golden Rail" trip up from here, all that speed right on his flank - this year's LaL? B

I think come race time, he is going to be the new wiseguy horse that we will be on. I like the LAL comparison and he should settle in nicely once PF and Flamey take off.

3. Promises Fulfilled 30-1 expect :22ish/:44ish splits. as i said yesterday, his draw was crucial to race setup. he's the rabbit/Justy's carrot A

He better take off from the beginning for the closers sake. My lean is to include him in the bottom of super, hoping he has enough left at the end to hang on for 3rd/4th.

4. Flameaway 30-1  see above, gonna be right on PF's rear for as long as his heart allows. A

Has the heart and a horse you can count on, but I just don't see him being able to stick around for this distance.

5. Audible 8-1  can duck in behind the pace, and cruise to his kick - no excuses, he's in a prime spot. A

Checks all the boxes, can he turn that switch on in the stretch to catch up to the front of the pack.

6. Good Magic 12-1  tactical speed specialist, pointed to this one since BC Juvey - has top class company sandwich to chew on. B

Seems to be trending up and you can get him at double digit odds. World class trainer in Brown, familiar with CD. Bluegrass was iffy imo though. Did he peak in the BC Juvy? 

7. Justify 3-1  been said already, but, wow on this seven hole ... a clean break and it could be lights out. early.  A+

I keep trying to find reasons not to have him as my top bet, but I can't. Only major concerns are getting sandwiched between PF and NI for the front/running too hard too early. Apollos curse?

8. Lone Sailor 50-1  has one move, and it will be late ... tote lighter upper for the adventurous B 

Deep closer, but outclassed here 

9. Hofburg 20-1  see above, but much less on the tote fireworks. shaping as the "wiseguy" long shot, expect a bang down by post time B

Certainly looking like the current wiseguy pick. Deep closer type who can definitely get up 3/4. I just don't think he has what it takes to win it.

10. My Boy Jack 30-1  completes the stone closer three pack. if he's 18-20th at the 1/2 it's a good sign that Kent is rationing properly.  B

Another deep closer who I like with Kent on board. Does he get the edge over Hof? I think one of those horses will hit the board, the tough part is deciding which one.

11. Bolt d'Oro 8-1  see above posts about this cat - all closers to his inside, will break into wherever Victor pleases. catbird seat.  A 

Loved this horse before the SA Derby/Justy came around. But again, he didn't have to run a great race to get in to KD. He has what it takes to win. He reminds me so much of Dortmund/Frosted. They were all great horses, but not as good as Justy/AP. I guess time will tell.

12. Enticed 30-1  gotta think he hustles in behind PF/Flamey/Justy trio.  will excite for 1/2 mile C

He is better than the 30-1 odds that were given to him, but I still don't think he can compete against the top horses in this race

13. Bravazo 50-1  will likely follow Enticed, and will likely fade as well  C 

Another instant toss.

14. Mendelssohn 5-1  no idea how they're gonna place him.  if the beast from Meydan shows up, expect stalking Justy's ### B

This one is tough, UAE derby history makes me say no, but he was definitely a beast in UAE, plus has the KY pedigree that could make him different. Definitely one of the best Aiden horses to ship in a while. Could he be the one? If he doesn't do it, does any UAE horse stand a chance.  

15. Instilled Regard 50-1  is there enough left to come late? that S.A. Derby was dog####. a steaming pile.  C

Never showed me anything. I don't see him contending. Toss.

16. Magnum Moon 6-1  drifted in both Reb/Arky - has not hit 100bsf yet, but steadily rising.  has a hustle out spot here, but not horrible. B-

Improving horse but bris #'s don't show me anything to say he should be single digits. Although this gives us the best odds to date on him.

17. Solomini 30-1  right on top of prep nemesis MM - was hoping for a more mid pack slot - 17 is the only number to never win. D

Waiting for him to run his best race, I don't think the derby will be it. Toss.

18. Vino Rosso 12-1  will get the pace he needs, has to work a bit from here to get his spot, he's not as deep a closer as the others C

Settle into the mid pack nicely imo, can handle the bumping from his win in the Wood. Showed a lot of grit to take 1st. I don't know if he can beat the best here though.

19. Noble Indy 30-1  brutal for his style, especially considering the hot pace is all well inside. mail this mutha in, no shot to run his race F

Hope he doesn't pinch Justy early. I could see him going for lead, but being out of it by mid race. Toss

20. Combatant 50-1  if this were a 30 horse field he woulda drew the 30 hole - been outside all prep season, so no stranger to this. will still be coming late. C- 

Closer, but im not interested in him coming from post 20. If the track was muddy, I could see him being a factor late, but too big of a race for him here.

eight definite tosses from my trifecta tix: FF, PF, Flamey  :( , Enticed, Bravazo, Solomini, IR, NI - pretty much the same lot i had tossed prior to the draw ... MM/Combatant/LS on a very precarious bubble.  hate to chuck closers in a race that should be perfectly conducive to their style. but can't use 'em all, and Combatant's post is slight pause for concern here.  

it's only Wednesday ... four more days of this puzzle - won't be finalizing 'til last minute, it appears.
Loving all the commentary here as well. OTB especially. I just wanted to add my thoughts on the above in Red.

 
Loving all the commentary here as well. OTB especially. I just wanted to add my thoughts on the above in Red.
:thumbup:

excellent look at the field, your points are all very well taken. agree on Justy - i'm really starting to come around.

and thanks for the shout, been a labor of love/education since December.

i appreciate all who have been contributing to make this a most informative, enjoyable thread - favorite hang spot on the board. 

 
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Does anyone ever pay Mike Shutty, or any other handicapper for picks?  Not sure how they got a hold of my email, but I am constantly bombarded with the Super Screener emails.  

 
@Timmay - going back to your Noble Indy look - do you think he has the giddyup to clear MM/Mendy/Enticed/Bolty to even get close to Justy/PF/Flamey?  that's a solid few furlong runup to that first turn, and if they use all that energy to clear those four i mentioned, it's gonna be cue in the rack before the 1/2 ... his race just cannot be run from out there, he drew the worst post, as far as correlation to style is concerned.  his one advantage out there is that Combatant/Vino/Solomini will not be going ...

 ... he has no other choice - in which case he is now my certified pick to be that booby trap prize/bet of "horse who finishes last"

 
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So, usually go offshore or use a local, but figured I'd give TVG a spin. $75 match on $75 immediately upon deposit. My account shows $225...anyone ever have this happen with the legal guys? Thinking let it ride. 

 
some analysis to chew on a couple days out ...some vids to start:

DRF Webinar  .... just about an hour long in total, here's the chop in four horse increments, as they went in order:

Firenze/Free Drop/PF/Flamey

Audi/GM/Justy/LS

Hof/MBJ/Bolty/Enticed

Bravazo/Mendy/IR/MM

Solo/Vino/NI/Combatant    bleeds out from there into some comments and their picks to wrap it up

a few DRF guys i've been following this prep season, Illman/Bernier/Beer with a half hour overview.

more DRF, with Russo/Nevills talking pedigrees 9 mins.

HorseCenter's  Zipse/Shifman look at the pace scenario 11 mins.

for spits and giggles - taking a look back to September, when Wynn posted their first futures book ... guess who was touted 8 months ago as favorite? (40/1, to boot)

Print Chatter:

latest buzz on the field  from HRN, you can rabbit hole a morning away with them, tons of info provided

Haskin's Final Derby Dozen - still with Vino, which is to be expected - you don't prop him up in April to waffle in May

Scat Daddy making history

ABR looks at heating up/cooling down -  longshots, bombs, and the value play - exacta strategy using Justy

some interesting props, if the Derby is too much of a puzzle, consider some of these ...

Will the crowd attendance exceed the 158,070 in 2017?

Yes: 5/11  

No: 31/20

How many words will be in the name of the Derby winner?

1: 20/53

2: 19/10

3: 13/2

What is the state or country the Derby winner last raced prior to winning the 2018 Derby?

Arkansas: 9/2

California: 2/1

Florida: 7/2

Kentucky: 9/2

Louisiana: 14/1

New York City: 15/2

Dubai: 4/1

What letter will the winning horse's name start with?

A-I: 7/5

J-Z: 5/9

What will the last place horse's saddlecloth number be?

1-10: 20/23

11-20: 4/5

Will the last place horse's saddlecloth number be odd or even?

Odd: 4/5

Even: 20/23

Odds the following celebrities are shown on NBC during the playing of 'My Old Kentucky Home'

Tara Lipinski & Johnny Weir: 3/1

Kid Rock: 5/1

Johnny Knoxville: 6/1

Brooks & Dunn: 6/1

Ty Burrell: 8/1

Aaron Rodgers: 8/1

Tony Romo: 10/1

Guy Fieri: 10/1

Taylor Kitsch: 12/1

Clay Matthews: 15/1

Over/Under finishing time of the 2018 Kentucky Derby

2:03.0

Over/Under length of the song "My Old Kentucky Home"

1:34.5

Over/Under age of the trainer to win the Derby

51.5

Over/Under age of the jockey to win the Derby

40.5

Odds the following NBC experts pick the correct winner

Jerry Bailey: 3/1

Randy Moss: 3/1

Ed Olczyk: 7/2

Odds it will be raining for the start of the race

10/1

Latest Odds:

1. Firenze Fire 66-1

2. Free Drop Billy 33-1

3. Promises Fulfilled 40-1

4. Flameaway 40-1

5. Audible 11-2

6. Good Magic 9-1

7. Justify 7-2

8. Lone Sailor 50-1

9. Hofburg 16-1

10. My Boy Jack 22-1

11. Bolt d'Oro 9-1

12. Enticed 25-1

13. Bravazo 50-1

14. Mendelssohn 4-1

15. Instilled Regard 50-1

16. Magnum Moon 7-1

17. Solomini 20-1

18. Vino Rosso 14-1

19. Noble Indy 28-1

20. Combatant 66-1

Audi/GM/Hof coming down, Justy/MM drifting up a bit ... maybe that "curse of Apollo" is gonna spook Justy up to some legit value. MM already there if you love him ... and Mendy basically co-favorite, the Meydan crush is apparently enough to buck the "toss invaders" angle.

 
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otb_lifer said:
@Timmay - going back to your Noble Indy look - do you think he has the giddyup to clear MM/Mendy/Enticed/Bolty to even get close to Justy/PF/Flamey?  that's a solid few furlong runup to that first turn, and if they use all that energy to clear those four i mentioned, it's gonna be cue in the rack before the 1/2 ... his race just cannot be run from out there, he drew the worst post, as far as correlation to style is concerned.  his one advantage out there is that Combatant/Vino/Solomini will not be going ...

 ... he has no other choice - in which case he is now my certified pick to be that booby trap prize/bet of "horse who finishes last"
That is a valid point. Noble Indy is going to have a lot of ground to cover to get to front, but everything points to thinking he will go for it and probably kill himself and/or others to do it, I just hope that other isn't Justy. I think of those listed Mendy and Enticed will be the ones who will go as well. I think MM and Bolt will settle in the stalking positions. I agree im kind of reaching for reasons for me to not take Justy, because I don't see anything else wrong with this racehorse. Maybe I should stop trying to talk myself out of betting who I think is going to win instead of reaching for reasons to bet longer odds/bigger payday.

Noble Indy is an easy toss but I don't like anyone from the Louisiana Derby this year, none of the 4 (NI/LS/MBJ/Brav) did anything to impress me. Only 1 to think about including in the bottom of my super is MBJ, I love the style, but I don't think he has the speed to hit better than 4th, needs a lot of help up front/early to even make that happen.

 
That is a valid point. Noble Indy is going to have a lot of ground to cover to get to front, but everything points to thinking he will go for it and probably kill himself and/or others to do it, I just hope that other isn't Justy. I think of those listed Mendy and Enticed will be the ones who will go as well. I think MM and Bolt will settle in the stalking positions. I agree im kind of reaching for reasons for me to not take Justy, because I don't see anything else wrong with this racehorse. Maybe I should stop trying to talk myself out of betting who I think is going to win instead of reaching for reasons to bet longer odds/bigger payday.

Noble Indy is an easy toss but I don't like anyone from the Louisiana Derby this year, none of the 4 (NI/LS/MBJ/Brav) did anything to impress me. Only 1 to think about including in the bottom of my super is MBJ, I love the style, but I don't think he has the speed to hit better than 4th, needs a lot of help up front/early to even make that happen.
:thumbup:

one scenario i've yet to consider, and that is PF/Flamey getting out to soft(er) fractions ... they drew beautifully, so no need to really hustle out - the two to their inside aren't going, and neither are Audi/GM ... consider, both PF/Flamey are two turn  route stakes winners, who abided the 24/48 kinda splits (as wikkid was lamenting earlier this season) - products of the points system in full effect - this ain't no cheap ~Tinnenberg~  kinda speed.

now, the fact that they drew inside lends itself to the potential brisker pace, seeing as they will both be saving ground from jump. 

but Romans knows he cannot fry a :21.2 like Fla. Derby - PF would be cooked by the 1/2, and, while Flamey will attend, he's not exactly gonna try and rip blazing splits to nudge ahead (see his Blue Grass).

so, if we get the :23+/:46+ knda pace, then, yeah - NI has a shot to last a bit longer than i have been anticipating, because he will be able to clear over much more comfortably, especially 'cause no one near him is gonna be sent. 

that potential slower pace will also greatly hamper the closers ... they will be in a real ####### pickle trying to pass the likes of Audi/GM/MM/Mendy/Bolty if that lot did not have to press hard to be in position to factor in the stretch. 

wildcard up in here is still Justy - if he decides to jet early it's gonna blow the effin' doors off this mutha, and some real clunkers are gonna be in play with the exotics .

 
Latest Odds:

1. Firenze Fire 66-1

2. Free Drop Billy 33-1

3. Promises Fulfilled 40-1

4. Flameaway 40-1

5. Audible 11-2

6. Good Magic 9-1

7. Justify 7-2

8. Lone Sailor 50-1

9. Hofburg 16-1

10. My Boy Jack 22-1

11. Bolt d'Oro 9-1

12. Enticed 25-1

13. Bravazo 50-1

14. Mendelssohn 4-1

15. Instilled Regard 50-1

16. Magnum Moon 7-1

17. Solomini 20-1

18. Vino Rosso 14-1

19. Noble Indy 28-1

20. Combatant 66-1

Audi/GM/Hof coming down, Justy/MM drifting up a bit ... maybe that "curse of Apollo" is gonna spook Justy up to some legit value. MM already there if you love him ... and Mendy basically co-favorite, the Meydan crush is apparently enough to buck the "toss invaders" angle.
That's kind of what I was counting on a few weeks back when I said I expected Justify to be somewhere around 7/2-5/1 come post time.  If he keeps drifting up and Mendelssohn down, that's going to change my strategy a bit.  When it was being tossed around that Justify could go off at 9/5 come post time and Mendelssohn was looking at 7-1/8-1, the latter was a much more profitable bet to break free from past historical trends.  If they're both hovering around 7-2/4-1/5-1, I can't really justify (waka waka) keying the Euro over the untested American.

 
That's kind of what I was counting on a few weeks back when I said I expected Justify to be somewhere around 7/2-5/1 come post time.  If he keeps drifting up and Mendelssohn down, that's going to change my strategy a bit.  When it was being tossed around that Justify could go off at 9/5 come post time and Mendelssohn was looking at 7-1/8-1, the latter was a much more profitable bet to break free from past historical trends.  If they're both hovering around 7-2/4-1/5-1, I can't really justify (waka waka) keying the Euro over the untested American.
Audi is basically at 5/1 here, while Bolty sits in the 11 hole   :bye: at the value seekers. 

still think Justy is at most 3/1 come post ... Mendy is gonna take a ton of foreign coin, so he will prolly be the biggest underlay up in here ... those hoping for a price are not gonna see it. 

of course, that tote i linked is one in it's infancy, but cool to see the (very) early trends 

 
Audi is basically at 5/1 here, while Bolty sits in the 11 hole   :bye: at the value seekers. 

still think Justy is at most 3/1 come post ... Mendy is gonna take a ton of foreign coin, so he will prolly be the biggest underlay up in here ... those hoping for a price are not gonna see it. 

of course, that tote i linked is one in it's infancy, but cool to see the (very) early trends 
Not loving 11/2 for Audible.  The more I look at it, the more I think I may have to just pick 3-4 horses I think can win and then key them over P/S fields that include the heavy hitters and a couple of deep closers in case we get suicidal fractions again.  It'll be a pretty wide spread (for me at least) - then I just have to hope that if a longshot bombs in and grabs a piece that it's one of the ones I mixed in and not some BS like Bravazo or Instilled Regard. 

 
Latest Odds:

1. Firenze Fire 66-1

2. Free Drop Billy 33-1

3. Promises Fulfilled 40-1

4. Flameaway 40-1

5. Audible 11-2

6. Good Magic 9-1

7. Justify 7-2

8. Lone Sailor 50-1

9. Hofburg 16-1

10. My Boy Jack 22-1

11. Bolt d'Oro 9-1

12. Enticed 25-1

13. Bravazo 50-1

14. Mendelssohn 4-1

15. Instilled Regard 50-1

16. Magnum Moon 7-1

17. Solomini 20-1

18. Vino Rosso 14-1

19. Noble Indy 28-1

20. Combatant 66-1
this is tote? if so, is there an exacta board? if so, what's the 5-7, presently? you may all be listening for zebras here...

 
So here is why I am terrible at betting races.  My current $1 tri bet is 

5, 7, 9, 11 / 5, 7, 9, 11, 16 / 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 18, 20

I know I am doing this wrong.  This is a $128 ticket.  How do I make this a better bet?  I know I need to take a stand and pick one or two to win, but this is such a difficult field.  I will most likely be tearing up my tickets again this year.  

ETA- I pulled a 180 on Hofburg.  

 
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So here is why I am terrible at betting races.  My current $1 tri bet is 

5, 7, 9, 11 / 5, 7, 9, 11, 16 / 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 18, 20

I know I am doing this wrong.  This is a $128 ticket.  How do I make this a better bet?  I know I need to take a stand and pick one or two to win, but this is such a difficult field.  I will most likely be tearing up my tickets again this year.  
What do you mean by better?  It's $128 because you have 128 winning combinations.  If you want to spend less, you need fewer ways to win.

 
Right, I saw.  I prefer DRF.  :bag:

Their site is almost unreadable now.
I do too.  When I went down to Gulfstream for the FL Derby, I had Brisnet PPs and decided on a whim to get a DRF program.  I couldn't find anyone selling them and ended up at a machine.  I plunked a few bucks in and it started printing the DRF for the whole day.... 5 minutes and roughly 70 sheets of thick paper later, I was walking around with what looked like the "H" volume of the World Book encyclopedia - all loose.  No way to pocket it... ever tried to hold a beer, eat a hot dog and maintain 70 sheets of unattached paper outside in a breeze at the same time?  Not as much fun as it sounds.

 
Not about spending less, just not betting like a moron.  Is this a bad bet to place? 
If Hofburg finishes in the top 2, it'll look really nice.  Even if he doesn't, you'll post a nice cash if you hit it.  My biggest concern, for lack of a better word, is that you have to fade Magnum Moon, Mendelssohn, and Vino Rosso finishing in the top 2.  But like you said, you have to take a stand at some point.  There's a decent chance none of those horses win or place.  Go with your gut.

 
I also paid for the Demling Picks.  Copied below.

Here is Demling's writeup:

There are several potential long shots that could hit the board in this week's Kentucky Derby.

Lexington Stakes winner My Boy Jack (30-1) and Combatant (50-1) should both be flying in the final stages of the race and with a good trip could get a piece of the purse money in the 144th Run for the Roses.

But neither is my long shot play of the day.

Nope. I'm going with Florida Derby runner-up Hofburg because of his talent and his connections.

The son of Tapit has only raced three times, finishing fourth in his first start last fall before a six-month break from the races. He came back to win his second start and then was put into the Grade I Florida Derby, where he ran second behind Audible.

Hofburg finished seven and three-quarters lengths ahead to the third-place finisher in the Florida Derby and has been training well leading up to the Derby. He's expected to be in the middle of the pack in a stalking position during the race.

But what isn't expected is Mott and owner Juddmonte Farms racing a horse with three career starts in the Derby. Perhaps the biggest reason Hofburg has become a prime long shot special is because of the Mott comments.

A Hall of Fame trainer, Mott is in his 41st year as a trainer and is known for being very conservative with his horses. It's the same way with Juddmonte, an outfit that doesn't like to rush a horse just to make a race like the Derby.

"This horse just led me into it," Mott said. "I don't think it was a case where I forced him into it. He broke his maiden. He looked good doing it. He was very impressive to me. I think this is my best chance to win a Derby."

And that's high praise for one of the best trainers in history.

Enough for me to make a play on the horse as long as his odds stay above 15-1, which I think they will.

Try a $5 across the board (win-place-show) and do a $1 exacta 9 with ALL - the total cost $34.

 
So here is why I am terrible at betting races.  My current $1 tri bet is 

5, 7, 9, 11 / 5, 7, 9, 11, 16 / 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 18, 20

I know I am doing this wrong.  This is a $128 ticket.  How do I make this a better bet?  I know I need to take a stand and pick one or two to win, but this is such a difficult field.  I will most likely be tearing up my tickets again this year.  

ETA- I pulled a 180 on Hofburg.   
if you are hot on Hof due to the Demling tip, then go balls the #### in .... only way he takes down the KD is with a total pace melt, so build accordingly ...

take Audi/Justy out the top, play Hof/Vino there instead ... spread to the likes of MBJ/LS/FDB/Combat as major players underneath, along with a couple of hotshot elites. 

if Hof wins, i would think that's the most likely exotics situation. 

 
The 16 keeps me coming back, not too much bad there outside of the 2 year old thing. If only he had ran his maiden race 2 weeks earlier.

 
The 16 keeps me coming back, not too much bad there outside of the 2 year old thing. If only he had ran his maiden race 2 weeks earlier.
it's really splittin' hairs, in'nt?

what keeps me from tossing him atm is his sub :13 waltz home in the Arky, even with that drift out to the freakin' five path :shock:  

tough horse to figure, given the ramp up in peripherals/distractions come Saturday. 

 

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