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2023 New York Jets: Bye Bye (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dr. Octopus
- Start date
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Parcells was the only established coach - rest coordinator bingo with 2 awful retreads (Kotite and Gase). Saleh has done an excellent job with the Defense but lets face it - its an offensive league. Ground and pound with a good defense is very hard to win with these days. That was my main concern with Saleh and any defensive guys and besides: Coslet, Kotite and Gase - what a threesome) there have only been defensive coaches in 30+ yrs - and not just defensive coaches but most didnt even care about the O. At least Saleh is involved somewhat - not sure if thats worse lol - If Saleh fails and is fired they need to find an offensive coach. Hoping it doesnt come to that and the new OC can figure it out and make it work but very shaky starting yr 3
Kiddnets
Footballguy
that makes sense if they go after Jimmy G lol.
Saw a cringy stat - after 2 yrs Saleh's record 10-23.....Gase 9-23 - QBand coaching - dooming this team for decades
NYRAGE
Footballguy
Woody says that he is open to paying a veteran QB if that's what JD and Saleh want to do. Called QB the missing piece.
He said that Wilson should have sat behind a veteran. He didn't give Wilson the best of reviews. He said the struggled, but saw some kernels of talent. Wilson lost confidence.
No playoff mandate next season for JD and Saleh.
He said that Wilson should have sat behind a veteran. He didn't give Wilson the best of reviews. He said the struggled, but saw some kernels of talent. Wilson lost confidence.
No playoff mandate next season for JD and Saleh.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
How weird would it be to see Tom Brady in green?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
SportsEdge reporting that they’d be “willing to spend big money” on a FA QB.
Thus my Brady comment.
sheerterror
Footballguy
This staff under Mangini had Dan Quinn - the rare career DC who made a very successful transition to HC we always seem to be chasing; and did so while managing to bring in 'the guy' for the offensive side of the ball in Kyle Shanahan - something we also always seem to be chasing. And this staff also had Brian Daboll, the career do everything guy with experience under multiple generational great HCs, that is seemingly shaping up into the rare combination 'leader of men' that can also truly be an asset to the QB/offensive side of the ball. 15 years later and we still haven't figure it out, not even in spurts.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
How weird would it be to see Tom Brady in green?
I don't speak for everyone, but no thanks
NYRAGE
Footballguy
If we keep firing the inept head coaches, their staff (even the rare good ones) typically get purged with them. I guess it all starts at the top. Woody hasn't made the best of decisions.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
its tough to see how much of a menace Woody is/has been - no one has really gone on record calling him out. He's not cheap - he doesnt fire coaches in season or too quick - the only real nose in I recall from him is Tebow....otherwise hes been fine, just makes bad hires.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
and don't get me started on CMc
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
are the coordinators really the ones to develop players though - wouldn't that fall more on the position coaches (i,e, QB Coach)?
I thought the OC was more "big picture" guy in that he oversees the offensive design and the best way to attack the opposition.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
I don't know, but it's what everyone is saying these days
TLEF316
Footballguy
Plenty of complaining (From other fan bases) about him getting away with grabbing all year. For the most part, I didn't see it. He's just that special.
Kid has Revis' instincts and feet in Cromartie's body. Already arguably the best in the league. Just needs to add a little strength and figure out how to bait guys into throwing at him.
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
How weird would it be to see Tom Brady in green?
Guaranteed prime time night game at New England if that happened.
-QG
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Twice!How weird would it be to see Tom Brady in green?
Guaranteed prime time night game at New England if that happened.
-QG
NYRAGE
Footballguy
The loudest had to be Seattle fans. Holy cow they had some weird issue about Woolen vs Sauce for ROTY. They are both great players. Sauce got the most first place votes for all CBs. This should put the ROTY questions to rest.
Every CB holds to some degree. Sauce has an amazing ability to not give up on a play even when he looks beat. He always seems to get his hands in there to knock the pass away at the last second.
rockaction
Footballguy
If I might opine briefly, Sauce got away with quite a bit of grabbing this year, at least to my eyes. More than your average CB. But it got better as the year went on, and by the end of the year he was just shutting guys down without really getting thrown at a whole ton.
Woolen was a late-rounder. How nice would it have been to have selected him?
No matter. For whatever reason, I'm getting Twitter vibes that the Jets are not at all done with Wilson. That's bad news. Sunk cost. Kill it.
Woolen was a late-rounder. How nice would it have been to have selected him?
No matter. For whatever reason, I'm getting Twitter vibes that the Jets are not at all done with Wilson. That's bad news. Sunk cost. Kill it.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think that’s the “company line” now (Zach isn’t done) - but it just doesn’t seem possible that this staff/front office could have any faith in him at this point. You can’t pull a guy for the 4th string QB and then go back.
rockaction
Footballguy
Sunk costs will make people do strange things. They'll try to justify prior mess-ups even if it means losing their job along the way because they don't change course for whatever reason (one possibility is that they're foolhardy, another is pure stubbornness).
That said, you're right. We have to look at their actions, and their actions screamed that they were done with Zach no matter what they say. It's just disheartening to hear that MLF was canned in part because he didn't develop Wilson. I have no love for Matt LaFleur, but not developing Wilson was not a mortal sin in my book.
Regardless, they have a lot of talent to work with. Need a QB.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It developed a winning culture.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Having to replace the OC and qb at the same time is such a challenging dynamic. They could hire an OC tomorrow, but there's no guarantee that the QB they get (might be months from now) would fit that OC's preferred system.
But can you really wait all the way until free agency (Which you might have to do, depending on what QB they want) before hiring a coach?
Tough spot.
But can you really wait all the way until free agency (Which you might have to do, depending on what QB they want) before hiring a coach?
Tough spot.
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Kiddnets
Footballguy
coaching is huge in the NFL - its great to have a top 5 Defense but as we saw with Rex its tough to develop a QB with a defensive minded coach. They hired a way too inexperienced OC and are now paying for it - Giants as usual did it right.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Lamar JAx's absence from even attending the game last pm was a huge signal he may be done in Balt. I always assumed he would be tagged but now he seems to be a viable option - with Woody saying he has no problem paying big $ for a QB
Im wondering if they are targeting him? it would likely take a Russell Wilson like trade and deal to get/sign him - not sure that is in JDs DNA - Lam seems to have peaked and the injuries catching up to him...hes younger than Wilson but will the declining running due to injuries push him towards a Russ Wilson type decline.
What are the thoughts out there on him - 26 yr old former MVP is a monster upgrade even if he declines a bit. Tough to give up 2 #1 picks and all that cap room but if hes healthy I think they would be easily a force in the playoffs with only a few small upgrades. Need to make a run next 4 yrs before all these rookie contracts come due. Im seriously considering it - I think hes much better than Carr or Jimmy G option
Im wondering if they are targeting him? it would likely take a Russell Wilson like trade and deal to get/sign him - not sure that is in JDs DNA - Lam seems to have peaked and the injuries catching up to him...hes younger than Wilson but will the declining running due to injuries push him towards a Russ Wilson type decline.
What are the thoughts out there on him - 26 yr old former MVP is a monster upgrade even if he declines a bit. Tough to give up 2 #1 picks and all that cap room but if hes healthy I think they would be easily a force in the playoffs with only a few small upgrades. Need to make a run next 4 yrs before all these rookie contracts come due. Im seriously considering it - I think hes much better than Carr or Jimmy G option
TLEF316
Footballguy
On the surface, getting a 26 year old league MVP QB certainly seems like a no-brainer. But the reality is that if a good QB is available, there's something "wrong" (either with the player or what would be required to get him)
In this case, its sort of both. Jackson obviously has durability concerns and his style of play makes it unlikely that it has an incredibly long career. One more bad leg injury and you could be paying a good but not great passer (outside of his MVP season) with diminished mobility $45+ a year. That's obviously a disaster. The Ravens have the leverage to franchise him and start a bidding war among the teams that want him. Now, if the Jets only have to give up #13 and their first rounder next year (plus maybe some sort of mid-round pick) I think you have to do it. This team with (a healthy) Jackson at he helm is a deep playoff contender, so next year's pick would be in the mid 20's. IMO, you roll the dice and do that.
Carr is a totally different scenario. The Raiders have no leverage. He has a no trade clause and they've already expressed their desire to move on. Carr himself has no incentive to help the Raiders get rid of him (by allowing a trade that nets them draft picks) so he can just say he'll decline every trade and wait for them to cut him. Of course, on the field, Carr has his own issues. (never been a star even in his prime, bad in cold weather, etc.).
The only "perfect" QB situation is that you draft one, develop him, build a loaded team around in years 3 and 4 (before he needs to get paid) and take your shot. And then you hope that once you have to pay him, he's a top 5-10 guy that can carry you to a title. Unfortunately, the Jets have shown a complete inability to do that. So now they're desperate.
If you do somehow land Jackson (which I still think is a pipe dream), you then have to build a championship team around him. So the Jets would need to fit him under the cap while re-signing Q, building a good o-line (which means signing a center, a tackle and praying that Becton can make it through a season) and adding at least 2 pieces to the D. Can they do that? I have no idea. It seems l like some teams have the ability to totally fudge the salary cap while others (like the Jets) have to make decisions on guys even though they're barely a .500 team.
Will be interesting regardless....but at the end of the day, I do think it will be Carr as a Free agent. Not a sexy pick, but I think you can make the playoffs with a good team around him.
In this case, its sort of both. Jackson obviously has durability concerns and his style of play makes it unlikely that it has an incredibly long career. One more bad leg injury and you could be paying a good but not great passer (outside of his MVP season) with diminished mobility $45+ a year. That's obviously a disaster. The Ravens have the leverage to franchise him and start a bidding war among the teams that want him. Now, if the Jets only have to give up #13 and their first rounder next year (plus maybe some sort of mid-round pick) I think you have to do it. This team with (a healthy) Jackson at he helm is a deep playoff contender, so next year's pick would be in the mid 20's. IMO, you roll the dice and do that.
Carr is a totally different scenario. The Raiders have no leverage. He has a no trade clause and they've already expressed their desire to move on. Carr himself has no incentive to help the Raiders get rid of him (by allowing a trade that nets them draft picks) so he can just say he'll decline every trade and wait for them to cut him. Of course, on the field, Carr has his own issues. (never been a star even in his prime, bad in cold weather, etc.).
The only "perfect" QB situation is that you draft one, develop him, build a loaded team around in years 3 and 4 (before he needs to get paid) and take your shot. And then you hope that once you have to pay him, he's a top 5-10 guy that can carry you to a title. Unfortunately, the Jets have shown a complete inability to do that. So now they're desperate.
If you do somehow land Jackson (which I still think is a pipe dream), you then have to build a championship team around him. So the Jets would need to fit him under the cap while re-signing Q, building a good o-line (which means signing a center, a tackle and praying that Becton can make it through a season) and adding at least 2 pieces to the D. Can they do that? I have no idea. It seems l like some teams have the ability to totally fudge the salary cap while others (like the Jets) have to make decisions on guys even though they're barely a .500 team.
Will be interesting regardless....but at the end of the day, I do think it will be Carr as a Free agent. Not a sexy pick, but I think you can make the playoffs with a good team around him.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Lamar Jackson on the Jets just has that “not gonna work out” feel.
Obviously a great talent but just too much risk with his injury history and in a whole new offense.
With that said, I’m betting he stays in Baltimore despite all the noise.
Obviously a great talent but just too much risk with his injury history and in a whole new offense.
With that said, I’m betting he stays in Baltimore despite all the noise.
rockaction
Footballguy
Saw this tweeted out by Sharp Football. if you're thinking that this is a tweet whereby I use authority to augment a position of mine that I held but was criticized for, you're right.
Warren Sharp
@SharpFootball
·
3h
remaining playoff Head Coach backgrounds JAX - offense - Doug Pederson KC - offense - Andy Reid NYG - offense - Brian Daboll PHI - offense - Nick Sirianni CIN - offense - Zac Taylor BUF - defense - Sean McDermott DAL - offense - Mike McCarthy SF - offense - Kyle Shanahan
Warren Sharp
@SharpFootball
·
3h
remaining playoff Head Coach backgrounds JAX - offense - Doug Pederson KC - offense - Andy Reid NYG - offense - Brian Daboll PHI - offense - Nick Sirianni CIN - offense - Zac Taylor BUF - defense - Sean McDermott DAL - offense - Mike McCarthy SF - offense - Kyle Shanahan
Kiddnets
Footballguy
very interesting and telling - big advantage to have a solid offensive coach.....even the sole defensive coach McDermott had Daboll to develop J Allen -
This OC hire is critical and if Saleh doesnt survive after next season they absolutely need to pivot to an offensive coach. Only 2 offensive hires in last 30 yrs were Kotite and Gase - time for another shot - the bar is low! lol
Kiddnets
Footballguy
I am rooting for Saleh to succeed and be a playoff team next year but since there is nothing better to do this early in the offseason I noticed Detroit Ben Johnson is staying as OC of Detroit and Kafka likely staying as OC of NYG - both would be high on my list of coordinator hires for next year....seriously hoping it doesnt come to it.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yikes.
I’m rooting for him to not get this job, for the mental well being of Jets fans.
I'm not given up on Zack Wilson. He's too talented. But the Jets have a habit of ruining young QBs. Heck, even Darnold didn't look so bad 2nd half of the season when he returned at least for Carolina.
If Wilson goes somewhere else, I think he still stands a chance to succeed.
If the Jets waste another draft pick on a QB though, they're just going to repeat. I could see them taking like Richardson or something who, IMO at lest, completely sucks and is just a terrific athlete with great tools. But he's no Josh Allen.
I do think it was the right call sitting Wilson though towards the end. If he kept failing that could have seriously just ruined his psyche if it wasn't already. But now at least he can come into next season perhaps with a little less pressure . There is ZERO excuse for starting Wilson last year. He clearly needed to sit and learn. Throwing him in prematurely and then doing it again.
Their best bet would be signing someone like Tom Brady, or someone lesser if not, like Jimmy G or heck bring Geno back. Then let Wilson sit the year and just learn. He's still young enough, he;ll be younger than Kenny Pickett still than when Pickett was drafted.
They invested too heavily in RB the past few years. Hall is great, his injury was brutal, but they need better OL also. And some help on D still.
If Wilson goes somewhere else, I think he still stands a chance to succeed.
If the Jets waste another draft pick on a QB though, they're just going to repeat. I could see them taking like Richardson or something who, IMO at lest, completely sucks and is just a terrific athlete with great tools. But he's no Josh Allen.
I do think it was the right call sitting Wilson though towards the end. If he kept failing that could have seriously just ruined his psyche if it wasn't already. But now at least he can come into next season perhaps with a little less pressure . There is ZERO excuse for starting Wilson last year. He clearly needed to sit and learn. Throwing him in prematurely and then doing it again.
Their best bet would be signing someone like Tom Brady, or someone lesser if not, like Jimmy G or heck bring Geno back. Then let Wilson sit the year and just learn. He's still young enough, he;ll be younger than Kenny Pickett still than when Pickett was drafted.
They invested too heavily in RB the past few years. Hall is great, his injury was brutal, but they need better OL also. And some help on D still.
zamboni
Footballguy
Right - let’s hire the guy who used to work for the older brother of the OC we just got rid of.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
and literally ran a HOF QBs offense into the ground
rockaction
Footballguy
My kingdom for Matt LaFleur given those candidates. Oof.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
agreed - if you are going to fire the OC you should have a better candidate lined up - none of these candidates seem any better. Its all moot because if the new OC fails then Saleh is gone.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
The Athletic just posted a huge (long) story about Wilson, LaFleur, etc. . Basically a huge summary of events, but some interesting parts:
Over the offseason, LaFleur and quarterbacks coach Rob Calabrese studied what worked for Wilson in 2021 and what didn’t. There was some level of frustration. LaFleur would tell people how much more effective the offense looked with quarterbacks Flacco, Josh Johnson and especially White. The stats backed it up.
But Wilson was the Jets’ future, so LaFleur adjusted the scheme, reduced the volume of plays and tried to make things more digestible. LaFleur’s directive to Zach Wilson when he returned to game action wasn’t complicated: If the first read and second reads aren’t there, run.
After the game, a loss, teammates raved about White in a way they never had about Wilson. “I know I’d go to war for that boy,” said Garrett Wilson. “He’s got something special about him.”
When Wilson replaced an injured White weeks later, multiple teammates openly grumbled about his return during practice and in meetings.
Regarding the time Moore blew up at practice:
That Thursday, Moore surprised teammates and coaches by blowing up on LaFleur, telling him to “go f— yourself” and “you suck,” according to multiple people who witnessed the interaction.
On Woody forcing Saleh to fire LaFleur
Multiple people in the organization pushed back on the narrative that Johnson forced Saleh to fire LaFleur, though Saleh likely did feel pressure from above to make changes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, the OC didn't like the QB. He reduced the number of plays and the number of reads. He still couldn't perform a miracle to make Wilson not look like the worst QB in the league.
The players didn't like the QB either. They loved when Mike White took over.
The players didn't like the OC either. Moore hated him. G Wilson said that the offense had gotten predictable.
Woody is willing to spend on a QB.
In summary, the team didn't like LaFleur or WIlson. One down, one to go. As the Jets world turns.
Over the offseason, LaFleur and quarterbacks coach Rob Calabrese studied what worked for Wilson in 2021 and what didn’t. There was some level of frustration. LaFleur would tell people how much more effective the offense looked with quarterbacks Flacco, Josh Johnson and especially White. The stats backed it up.
But Wilson was the Jets’ future, so LaFleur adjusted the scheme, reduced the volume of plays and tried to make things more digestible. LaFleur’s directive to Zach Wilson when he returned to game action wasn’t complicated: If the first read and second reads aren’t there, run.
After the game, a loss, teammates raved about White in a way they never had about Wilson. “I know I’d go to war for that boy,” said Garrett Wilson. “He’s got something special about him.”
When Wilson replaced an injured White weeks later, multiple teammates openly grumbled about his return during practice and in meetings.
Regarding the time Moore blew up at practice:
That Thursday, Moore surprised teammates and coaches by blowing up on LaFleur, telling him to “go f— yourself” and “you suck,” according to multiple people who witnessed the interaction.
On Woody forcing Saleh to fire LaFleur
Multiple people in the organization pushed back on the narrative that Johnson forced Saleh to fire LaFleur, though Saleh likely did feel pressure from above to make changes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, the OC didn't like the QB. He reduced the number of plays and the number of reads. He still couldn't perform a miracle to make Wilson not look like the worst QB in the league.
The players didn't like the QB either. They loved when Mike White took over.
The players didn't like the OC either. Moore hated him. G Wilson said that the offense had gotten predictable.
Woody is willing to spend on a QB.
In summary, the team didn't like LaFleur or WIlson. One down, one to go. As the Jets world turns.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
People keep saying this because of a few decent fantasy games to end the season - Sam Darnold was terrible in Carolina both seasons.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
This is the problem. No great candidate wants to join a HC starting off on the hot-seat.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
add another potential uninspiring candidate: https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/01/19/buccaneers-fire-byron-leftwich/
Kiddnets
Footballguy
I think these takes on Darnold are after watching how awful ZW was. I mean Darnold is awful but looks like a polished pro with upside compared to Wilson - he was that bad
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Very interesting - I do think LaFleur got a bit of a raw deal as the O looked much better with non ZW QBs....None of the candidates excite me - O is a mess
Moore needs to get a better attitude - GW played with the same awful QB/OC and had a monster season. If Moore is truly that good he should have played better. This is a make it or break it year for him.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Basically a Bowles for Lefty swap - not exciting at all.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
To be fair, about 80% of the league’s head coaches have offensive backgrounds, so this is basically what you would expect.
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