Breaking a 4-way Tie (1 Viewer)

[Dope]

First off the rules say this:


Standings Sort Criteria #1:


Overall Winning Percentage


Standings Sort Criteria #2:


Head-To-Head Record


Standings Sort Criteria #3:


Divisional Winning Percentage


Standings Sort Criteria #4:


Total Points Scored


Standings Sort Criteria #5:


Reverse Order Of Opponent Total Points Scored



OK...

1. Team A is overall 7-6, division 2-1, and 1400 points

2. Team B is overall 7-6, division 2-1, and 1300 points

3. Team C is overall 7-6, division 1-2, and 1350 points

4. Team D is overall 7-6, division 1-2 and 1325 points.

Since they are all 7-6, we got to tiebreaker #2. Team A and Team B are 2-1 vs the other 3, so they win that. Divisional Winning Percentage is also the same between A and B.

Do you reset the tiebreaker and start at Tiebreaker #1 (A&B tied at 7-6) and then go to H2H where Team B beat Team A in week 6?

Or do you move to to Tie Breaker #4 which is Total Points Scored, and Team A gets the spot.

Right now, I interpret you break the tie and reset the tiebreaking process which means Team B gets the Divisional Title. MFL has Team A in the #1 spot in this morning's standings.

Am I interpreting things incorrectly when it comes to multiple team tie-breakers?

Thanks.

 

[Arodin]

I think you keep going...you already used that h2h victory just getting team A past team C.  If that game had gone the other way, B would advance already by winning the h2h tiebreak.  

If you reset, A gets to "double count" that win over team B, which isn't really fair from my view.

 

[Dope]

I think you keep going...you already used that h2h victory just getting team A past team C.  If that game had gone the other way, B would advance already by winning the h2h tiebreak.  

If you reset, A gets to "double count" that win over team B, which isn't really fair from my view.

Ugh...thats a really good take.

I just went to NFL.com and found how the NFL does it. The NFL double counts the head-to-head matchup.


Three or More Clubs


(Note: If two clubs remain tied after third or other clubs are eliminated during any step, tie breaker reverts to step 1 of the two-club format).

1. Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games among the clubs).
   
2. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
   
3. Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
   
4. Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
   
5. Strength of victory.
   
6. Strength of schedule.
   
7. Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
   
8. Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
   
9. Best net points in common games.
   
10. Best net points in all games.
    
11. Best net touchdowns in all games.
    
12. Coin toss
    

 

[Franknbeans]

Yeah, I don't understand why you'd re-set.  Go down your list and there is an obvious winner.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Team A has it.

 

[Dope]

I want to keep getting opinions, but I do see that I interpret tie-breaker the same way as the NFL does and that's eliminate teams until you get to two teams and go through that tie-breaker process.

 

[shadyridr]

Why do people do this to themselves? Just use points next year as the tie breaker

 

[FUBAR]

Why do people do this to themselves? Just use points next year as the tie breaker

With more than 2 teams tied this is easily the best way.  With 2 teams go h2h first if you want to but that's just a matter of preference. 

Don't use the nfl tie breaking system, it's unnecessary and cumbersome for ff.

 

[Franknbeans]

Why do people do this to themselves? Just use points next year as the tie breaker

He already has it in there, he just doesn't want to abide by it for some reason.

 

[Dope]

He already has it in there, he just doesn't want to abide by it for some reason.

I dont understand this comment

 

[Franknbeans]

If you follow your current tie breaking procedures then Team A wins on tiebreaker #4 total points.  Why you'd want to re-set just because that's what the NFL does is beyond me. Your rules do not state that you will be following the NFL tie break rules as far as re-setting, do they?

 

[shadyridr]

How did they only play 3 divisional games?

 

[Franknbeans]

p.s. I think he is Team B

 

[Dope]

I am not even in this league. So I am not any of the teams. I want to do "what's right".

I can go into why only 3 divisional games at a different time...that'll just muddy the water.

The scenario where #4 (Total Points) would be invoked would be where all 4 teams are 7-6. A,B,C are all 2-1 in the Division D is 0-3 in the division. Team A, B, C are all 1-1 against each other, THEN it goes to total points between A, B and C.

There is no option with MyFantasyLeague to use the NFL tie-breaking rules to reset....and no this is not implicitly stated in our League Rules. That's kinda why I am asking the question. I understand why you guys are saying points, I don't agree. But because I don't agree doesn't "make it right". 

So a nice friendly discussion of opposing view points usually leads to clarity.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Yeah, I don't understand why you'd re-set.  Go down your list and there is an obvious winner.

This 

 

[Jeremy]

Why do people do this to themselves? Just use points next year as the tie breaker

This.  Use decimal scoring with total points scored as the first tie breaker and you never have to worry about it.  Plus it's the most fair, rewarding the team that actually scored the most points rather than the team that got lucky with the schedule.

 

[RUSF18]

There is no option with MyFantasyLeague to use the NFL tie-breaking rules to reset....and no this is not implicitly stated in our League Rules. That's kinda why I am asking the question. I understand why you guys are saying points, I don't agree. But because I don't agree doesn't "make it right". 

So a nice friendly discussion of opposing view points usually leads to clarity.

Your rules don't say anything about resetting as teams are eliminated from the tiebreaking scenario. You followed criteria #1, you followed criteria #2, you followed #3, so it's time to go to criteria #4. 

It's even labeled as "sort criteria" and if you literally sorted those columns in Excel your winner would be Team A. 

 

[Grahamburn]

Rock, paper, scissor tournament.

 

[Arodin]

I want to keep getting opinions, but I do see that I interpret tie-breaker the same way as the NFL does and that's eliminate teams until you get to two teams and go through that tie-breaker process.

The NFL's double counting is not the same.  The NFL is doing two separate determinations.  It first determines division winners, then re-evaluates the remaining teams as wild cards.  This is not the same as narrowing the field once only, and applying the same tiebreaker twice.

 

[Hu-Tang Clan]

You set the tiebreakers in MFL and MFL has done all the math for you with team A in the spot.  Discussion not needed.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Why do people do this to themselves? Just use points next year as the tie breaker

Agreed - in my league we have different criteria for division & wildcard.

division gors record => H2H, division record, points for, points against. 

Across dovisins we eliminated H2H because some teams may have played each other 2x while others only 1x. 

So it goes record => points.

why should it matter that one team had a better divisional record than a team in another division? Maybe they were in an easy division.  All the who beat who stuff gets a be a giant headache whenever more than 2 teams are involved.

 

[Hawkeye21]

I've always preferred tie breakers being settles by total points.  It's not like the NFL where head to head match ups are determined on which team is better.  Fantasy match ups are based more on luck.  I think more credit should be given to the team that score the most points.

 

[Dope]

Not sure if I made this clear...all 4 teams had the same record were in the same division. This isn't for the Wild Card, this is for the Division Title.

All Teams 7-6.

2 Teams are 2-1 within the division, 2 teams are 1-2 within the division.

Since the 4-way tie was broken into two 2-way ties, do you go to points (the way MFL did it and criteria #3) or would you do it the way the NFL does it, which means start over at criteria #1?

i've listened to the people on this board. I've listened to long time players in my league who have been commishs in the past and while I believe the NFL model is the one to follow, the correct ruling is to use MFL's process and award the division by points.

Our rules do not implicitly say to follow the NFL's rule for 3-or-more team tie-breakers, so we cant use it this year. We'll put it up for a vote next year and make sure our rules define this more clearly.

Thanks everyone.

 

[Hawkeye21]

If it were me I would say team A wins the division based on most overall points scored.  The team that puts up the most points deserves it.

 

[Joe Summer]

In the NFL, Team B would get it because Team B beat Team A. Every time you eliminate a team (such as when C&D were eliminated), the tiebreaker resets.

BTW, if these teams are not in the same division, then you are doing it wrong. The NFL never uses Division Record to break ties between two teams in different divisions.

 

[Skipper]

It's an interesting question. I've worked on the rules for a sport where there is a lot of round-robin play and frequent tied records. The situation with three teams at 1-1 with each other is pretty common. For a long time we would next look at point differential, take the top team, and then break the tie between the two remaining teams by going back to head-to-head. Then I noticed an anomaly where a team could advance by intentionally losing an additional point at the end (to lose by 3 instead of 2 in order to avoid the unfavorable head-to-head), and we changed the rule so that whenever you have a discrete ordering you take it, and you never go back up the chain.

Based on that and the reasoning that head-to-head has already been used to get A and B to this point, I think MFL is doing it right by advancing Team A.

 

[Portis 26]

I think if two teams are tied it's best use H2H.

More than two teams, move to points scored. H2H gets very fiddly when you have multiple teams.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Not sure if I made this clear...all 4 teams had the same record were in the same division. This isn't for the Wild Card, this is for the Division Title.

Ah - ok, then in that case H2H does matter and wow what a brutal division and total cluster  

lol

Sounds like it's Team A. 

 

[Dope]

In the NFL, Team B would get it because Team B beat Team A. Every time you eliminate a team (such as when C&D were eliminated), the tiebreaker resets.

BTW, if these teams are not in the same division, then you are doing it wrong. The NFL never uses Division Record to break ties between two teams in different divisions.

There were 4 teams in the division. All 4 teams finished at 7-6.

 

[Dope]

Ah - ok, then in that case H2H does matter and wow what a brutal division and total cluster  

lol

Sounds like it's Team A. 

I had another 12 teamer have the Wildcard get into a 3 way tie where they were all 1-1 against the other two.

That came down to points where Team A scored 1378.16 and Team B scored 1376.66.

1.5 points over 13 weeks keeps one guy out and lets one guy in.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I had another 12 teamer have the Wildcard get into a 3 way tie where they were all 1-1 against the other two.

That came down to points where Team A scored 1378.16 and Team B scored 1376.66.

1.5 points over 13 weeks keeps one guy out and lets one guy in.

Both owners should have done more to field a better team all year.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I had another 12 teamer have the Wildcard get into a 3 way tie where they were all 1-1 against the other two.

That came down to points where Team A scored 1378.16 and Team B scored 1376.66.

1.5 points over 13 weeks keeps one guy out and lets one guy in.

I beat someone in a championship game by .1 a few years ago on a "phantom tackle" (my LB chased a guy out of bounds without touching him, 2 points)

that .1 was the difference between $1800 and $600. 

The $ spent the same. (Fantasy) football is a game of inches.  

 

[kutta]

We follow the NFL format where we go back and reset after eliminating a team. And, if three or more teams are tied, the head-to-head has to be a "clean sweep." That is, if one team is undefeated against all the others, he advances. And if one team lost every game against all the others, he is eliminated. Otherwise, we move to the next tiebreak.

 

[Skoo]

What is the logic in using H2H over total points? Seems crazy to me.

I can score 150 more points than the guy I'm tied with, but since he beat me the week I had 5 guys on the bye then he gets in?

So much more fair to do total points, which accounts for how a team did over the whole season, instead of basing it on 1 or 2 random weeks during the season.

The other nice thing is you don't have to worry about all this tiebreaker junk. Just look at points.

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

You set the tiebreakers in MFL and MFL has done all the math for you with team A in the spot.  Discussion not needed.

boom. end of discussion

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

What is the logic in using H2H over total points? Seems crazy to me.

I can score 150 more points than the guy I'm tied with, but since he beat me the week I had 5 guys on the bye then he gets in?

So much more fair to do total points, which accounts for how a team did over the whole season, instead of basing it on 1 or 2 random weeks during the season.

The other nice thing is you don't have to worry about all this tiebreaker junk. Just look at points.

In theory divisional games have no one on the BYE. 

In standard 12-team 3-division format, 1st 3 and last 3 are intradivisonal. 

The new week 13 BYE throws a bit of a wrench in the works.

IMO inside the division H2H has to be the 1st tiebreaker, because if I swept another team in season there's no way hey should be in and I should be out just because they outscored me over the course of a season. Might have just been a big game or two for them. So to your question I'd ask, "why should it matter if they blew up a couple times during the year if I beat them twice"? 

Afer that I think divisional record is the next tiebreaker.

within a division this seems to make the most sense. 

 

[Skoo]

In theory divisional games have no one on the BYE. 

In standard 12-team 3-division format, 1st 3 and last 3 are intradivisonal. 

The new week 13 BYE throws a bit of a wrench in the works.

IMO inside the division H2H has to be the 1st tiebreaker, because if I swept another team in season there's no way hey should be in and I should be out just because they outscored me over the course of a season. Might have just been a big game or two for them. So to your question I'd ask, "why should it matter if they blew up a couple times during the year if I beat them twice"? 

Afer that I think divisional record is the next tiebreaker.

within a division this seems to make the most sense. 

This is where we disagree.

If they outscored you over the course of a season, they had the better team. Period.

The only reason we do H2H matchups to begin with is that if we just did total points it would be boring. But total points is without a doubt the most accurate way to tell how well a team did during the year.

Yes, in real sports they go by H2H. 

But fantasy is different, because we don't play defense. Unlike real sports, we have no control over how many points our opponent scores. That part is all luck of the draw.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

This is where we disagree.

If they outscored you over the course of a season, they had the better team. Period.

The only reason we do H2H matchups to begin with is that if we just did total points it would be boring. But total points is without a doubt the most accurate way to tell how well a team did during the year.

Yes, in real sports they go by H2H. 

But fantasy is different, because we don't play defense. Unlike real sports, we have no control over how many points our opponent scores. That part is all luck of the draw.

Not sure about "period", but but we can certainly agree to disagree. 

Your take: if they outscored you over the course of 13 games they were the better team.

My take: if they lost to you twice, you get in. If you lost to them twice, they get in. 

Why would the tiebreaker be who scored more over the course of a season?  Maybe they scored the same # of points but had just one HUGE game - why would that make them "the better team, period"? That's preposterous.  If they were "the better team, period" then they would have won when it counted and beaten their divisional opponent. 

In my opinion, not counting divisional H2H record is a horrible way to determine playoffs.  If that's your position, then why even bother going by record at all?  just make it like roto baseball and go with points for all teams then, abolishing divisions.

After all, the teams with the most points are "the better teams, period" right? Why would record matter?  

 

[Hawkeye21]

Not sure about "period", but but we can certainly agree to disagree. 

Your take: if they outscored you over the course of 13 games they were the better team.

My take: if they lost to you twice, you get in. If you lost to them twice, they get in. 

Why would the tiebreaker be who scored more over the course of a season?  Maybe they scored the same # of points but had just one HUGE game - why would that make them "the better team, period"? That's preposterous.  If they were "the better team, period" then they would have won when it counted and beaten their divisional opponent. 

In my opinion, not counting divisional H2H record is a horrible way to determine playoffs.  If that's your position, then why even bother going by record at all?  just make it like roto baseball and go with points for all teams then, abolishing divisions.

After all, the teams with the most points are "the better teams, period" right? Why would record matter?  

I think I have to side with the other guy.  Fantasy football is all based on points scored.  When we draft our teams we do with the intent to score the most points possible.  When everyone does their player projections at the start of the season it's based on who will score the most points.  Based on this I would say the team who has scored the most points at the end of the season did the best at drafting and managing their team.  The head to head part of it just makes the season a little more like the NFL and enjoyable.  The most important criteria to establish standings is still based on teams records in head to head competition.  After that tie breakers really should be based on which owner put managed the best team overall that season.  Seems to be the most fair way of doing it.

 

[lod001]

Head to head is the worst tiebreaker in the history of tie breakers. With bye weeks a team can really get screwed. We changed (finally) to h-2h breakdown 1st, points 2nd. That's 13 weeks playing the same teams you are tied with. CBS keeps track of it. Beats having 1 game decide your gate when your guys are on the bye week and the team you played was at full power.

 

[iamkoza]

whatever the website says is the way it should be period end of story.... i'm assuming the tiebreaker criteria was not developed by your league through league specific rules, but rather you are just using the website default...

 

[kutta]

I'm with Hot Sauce Guy on this one, at least in our friends league we've been doing for 20 years now. We talk so much crap to each other each week, and winning individual games means a lot. We like the emphasis on winning and not just scoring points. However, we have a couple cavaets.

1. Each week, the top 4 scoring teams get a "playoff point." If you win you also get one. the 5th and 6th playoff spot is determined by the most playoff points, so high scoring each week really helps.

2. All our waiver money ($1.00 per waiver) goes into a pool, and the total points winner for the year gets that pool. 

But for tiebreaks, it's head-to-head first, divisional record second (if you're in the same division), and total points third.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I think I have to side with the other guy.  Fantasy football is all based on points scored.  When we draft our teams we do with the intent to score the most points possible.  When everyone does their player projections at the start of the season it's based on who will score the most points.  Based on this I would say the team who has scored the most points at the end of the season did the best at drafting and managing their team.  The head to head part of it just makes the season a little more like the NFL and enjoyable.  The most important criteria to establish standings is still based on teams records in head to head competition.  After that tie breakers really should be based on which owner put managed the best team overall that season.  Seems to be the most fair way of doing it.

I'm ok with people agreeing or disagreeing with me. I'm just saying what I think is the right way to do it. If you beat someone twice in your division, and have owned your division, then it seems pretty jacked up that you'd miss the playoffs just because they happened to score more than you during the season. 

Divisional wins should matter more than cross-divisional wins. It should matter that you beat someone in your division twice during the regular season. 

Otherwise like I said - scrap divisions altogether and go by points if points are the holy grail.  Note: I played in a league of that format and it wasn't terrible, I just prefer the divisional races. 

It matters in the NFL - they certainly use H2H in the division. 

But I totally respect your right to your opinion - takes all kinds to make the world go round and if your league is happy with it, bonus. My leagues both use H2H as the intra-divisional tiebreaker, but points as the Wildcard tiebreaker, and everyone is pretty happy with it. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I'm with Hot Sauce Guy on this one, at least in our friends league we've been doing for 20 years now. We talk so much crap to each other each week, and winning individual games means a lot. We like the emphasis on winning and not just scoring points.

See, both my leagues are local, friendly and we've been going between 12-18 years, so like yours, emphasis on wins and losses and smack is vital to the league. And there's no way in hell anyone in those leagues would accept that they'd miss the playoffs over a team they beat within the division 2X.  If you sweep a team, you're the better team. In theory any team can blow up for a week here or a week there. If 30% of their points came from 3 games where they blew up, that doesn't make them the better team. Beating their opponents does. And especially beating their divisional opponents. 

Some have implied that about luck and divisional wins are just lucky timing? OK, well so is all fantasy football - you're lucky if your player stays healthy, you're lucky if you eek out a .1 point victory, and ya know what? You're also pretty lucky to score the most points.  

 

[Mario Kart]

It's not about resetting the format rather the tie breaker rules are used to get to one conclusion. If after that conclusion there is still a tie, the process begins again. In the scenario in the OP, one conclusion was met but a tie remained. The first run did eliminate two teams though, so it was successful. Then, go through the tie breaker with the two remaining teams. Seems simple. 

 

[Ironman2131]

I think that using head-to-head as a basis in fantasy football, where you have no impact whatsoever on how your opponent does (unlike the NFL, where you have full control), doesn't make much sense.  Having said that, it's in the rules and was already used as an earlier tiebreaker.  I think both paths suggested by the OP can be argued, although I feel that having more points is the better sign of a good team (and what is the playoffs but a reward for the best teams?).  Also, since MFL's system is also going to the next tiebreaker of points scored, I would just go with that.

 

[Pigskin Fanatic]

like all of the answers here. want to add, if head to head is used and this league is an on going league, rules should be changed for next year and make head to head the LAST criteria. This would not have been an issue.

 

[DropKick]

Team A based on the NFL's methods.  Teams C and D are eliminated after the first two tie breakers but you must go to the next tie breaker (points) to eliminate team B.  Once A is established as the #1 seed, the NFL would reset (from the top) and break a 3 team tie.  Note the reset doesn't happen until a team is established as the "winner".

They don't do "two 2-way ties".

 

[Hawkeye21]

Here's a big reason why I don't care for the head to head tie breaker.  Some may say that sweeping a team in your division means your team is much better but both of those wins may have been by a total of 5 points and you both had your worst games of the year.  All you're saying is that your team was slightly less worse than my team during those match ups even though my team was much better every other game the rest of the season.  Just because your team beat me on my worst two games means you had the better team than me?  I would think the team that scored the most points throughout the year deserves the tie break.

I know this way seems unfair to the person that won the match ups but this isn't real football where you're using the same players each week and able to play defense.  This is strictly based weekly match ups witch can be lucky.  I just think total points at the end of the year are based less on luck compared to head to head wins.

 

[Hawkeye21]

Here's a "cool story bro."

In the league that I'm commissioner in we have an 8 way tie for third place out of 12 teams.  I've never seen anything like it before.  This is just a fun couples league on Yahoo that doesn't have any money involved.  We also do not have divisions so it's a little different.  The top two teams are tied with an 8-5 record, the next two teams are tied with 7-6 records and the rest of the league is tied with 6-7 records.  So that's three different ties involving every single team.  Crazy, right?  I'm one of the teams tied with a 6-7 record and I missed the playoffs by one spot.  Our league, which is preset by Yahoo, determined the tie breakers by total points and there are zero arguments.  I honestly don't think anyone even remembers which teams they beat.  It just makes it so much easier.