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Brian Flores Sues NYG and NFL for Racial Discrimination (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JaxBill
- Start date
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I'll guess 25% of owners, who by the way are demographically, old white conservative males, will have an unconscious bias towards a white candidate. This should not be a shock in any way.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
One owner like that is gross but doesn’t mean the league has a problemAll of the owners? No. One or more of the owners?
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I suspect it’s true for quite a few of them.
I do not believe it is all NFL owners.
But it’s impossible to look over the history of the NFL, and especially the long, long list of mediocre (white) retreads and not wonder if there may have been better qualified people of color they could have given some of those opportunities to, had they been open to such a thing.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
If, in the end, there is no corroboration for Flores' multiple claims I will agree with your assessment.
It is somewhat interesting that Hue Jackson named the Browns as precedent for "pay to lose" game fixing, and that he says he can prove it. I suspect the Stephen Ross allegations have the most legs in potentially vindicating Flores.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
What does this mean, exactly other than whataboutism and false equivalence?
Head coaching isn’t exactly an on-field physical position. HC’s don’t have a combine where they do tire drills & high jumps.
They’re measured on wholly different metrics.
weird post.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Part of my interest in seeing where this class action suit goes is exposing the extent to which racism is or isn't prevalent in ownership, and perhaps upper management. I, honestly, have no idea what the real extent is. Based on the numbers, it seems like it may be more prevalent than I'd hope.
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SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Do you remember when Howard Cosell said "look at that little monkey go" or when Jimmy the Greek explained why blacks make superior atheletes?
You really want to equate hiring a coach or front office exec to hiring a DB in the mind of a (potentially biased) owner?
Rethink your question.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
It’s hard for me to understand that nfl owners will pay black players, black cheerleaders, black assistant coaches, black employees in the team offices etc but refuse to hire a black head coach because they are racist.
Maybe I’m naive
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Not sure how we would know that. IMO I would say it is very rare, if it exists at all.
Me thinking there seems to be something "off" about only one black head coach doesn't mean I think there are old white racists twisting their mustaches in their owner boxes, but that feels like what people think I mean. I believe it's more likely that it's the institution of "doing what I've always done", a lot of nepotism and hiring a group of coaches along with a hire, etc. I don't think it's controversial to say that most of the time in the past that pool of people were white guys, and seems to be largely still the case. I like more likely it's stuff like IK and others are pointing out. You hire a buddy. That buddy brings along his son(s) and other coaches he worked with at a different level, rinse, repeat - and nothing changes for the black applicants.
Even if it's not an overly racist intent, it seems to be what standard leads to a pretty lopsided outcome - again, taking the stance that the majority of players are black, and you'd think players would have more knowledge/desire to coach.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Ok, let’s frame it as you did. What’s the right number of racist owners?
1? 5? 10? 20?
I contend that 1 racist team owner is too many, but we all have our tolerance.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I would agree that one is too many. But again , it wouldn’t a league wide racism problem make
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I responded to this earlier.
Historically, in sports and in business, the view has long been held by racists that people of color are capable of certain things, yet incapable of others.
for ~75% of the 102 year history of the league it was believed that black people could not play QB, for example. They were happy to pay black DB, LB, OL, DL, as you frame it.
So it’s not unreasonable or even dissimilar to suggest that an owner who is happy to pay a black athlete to perform on the field might also be unwilling to pay a black GM or head coach.
It’s similar to the glass ceiling women in the workplace often face, but that’s a different subject for a different topic.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Counterpoint: If you have 1 racist owner and 31 owners who tolerate 1 racist owner, you have 32 racist owners.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Reading through this thread id say your opinion isn’t shared by a lot of posters.
I agree with you fwiw
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Meh, I HIGHLY doubt any owners go to the owners meeting and announce that they’re a racist and there’s no way they’re hiring a black HC
Again, maybe I’m naive
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
On this part, but I think we disagree on the part that we should still be looking to do something about it or that something might be "off" in the process.
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
link
Flores contends that Belichick had more than inside information. Flores contends that Belichick actually influenced New York’s decision to hire Daboll.
“I think there are back channel conversations and back channel meetings that are had that oftentimes influence decisions,” Flores told Jay Williams of NPR’s podcast The Limits. “I think [the Giants hiring process] is a clear example of that. Bill Belichick is a clear example of that. His resume speaks to that. It was clear to me that decision was made with his influence. That’s part of the problem. That needs to change. There needs to be a fair and equal opportunity to interview and showcase your abilities to lead and earn one of those positions.”
Flores contends that Belichick had more than inside information. Flores contends that Belichick actually influenced New York’s decision to hire Daboll.
“I think there are back channel conversations and back channel meetings that are had that oftentimes influence decisions,” Flores told Jay Williams of NPR’s podcast The Limits. “I think [the Giants hiring process] is a clear example of that. Bill Belichick is a clear example of that. His resume speaks to that. It was clear to me that decision was made with his influence. That’s part of the problem. That needs to change. There needs to be a fair and equal opportunity to interview and showcase your abilities to lead and earn one of those positions.”
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’m not saying they are.
As with everything in life, there are layers. Overt racism is what you describe. I also doubt that any sports owner is overtly racist. Not since Marge Schott, anyway.
Subtly racist? That I can absolutely believe. As @KarmaPolicesuggested, there may be GMs or owners who are more comfortable working with a white person.
That’s also racism. and yes, you would have to be naive to believe this doesn’t happen.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
And it doesn't even have to mean that they are uncomfortable with a black HC, it's just that they are more comfortable being around people that are like them, came from a similar place, similar background, whatever. These are billion-dollar franchises and million-dollar decisions. I don't doubt that an owner would gravitate to who they already know or what has worked well in the past. Doesn't mean they are racist, but that doesn't mean it's right or isn't causing a discrepancy with hiring.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
I'll cut the meat to the bone.
If there are people here who want to see more black GMs in the NFL, then you need more African Americans in sports analytics in all stages of football.
The New York Knicks are an interesting test case for a long suffering team looking to rebuild. On paper, former CAA power agent Leon Rose is the team president and final decision maker for the Knicks. Scott Perry, on paper, is the GM. But Brock Aller, who runs their analytics, is essentially the most powerful person in the organization. He's the guy who says this move or that move won't work against the cap and against the current CBA. He's the guy who measures out when a potential free agent will likely hit his age related decline phase and how brutal that drop will be in reality. He's the guy calculated the value of trading back and forwarding picks into the future while reducing the cap commitment to a smaller rookie salary slotting.
There used to be a chain of command for the NBA Hornets. Michael Jordan, Rod Higgins and Rich Cho. People stopped talking to Rod Higgins, who got the job for being an old friend of Jordan. He couldn't answer lots of questions that required understanding of the CBA and how the salary cap worked. They just called Rich Cho. So Higgins was forced out because he was obsolete. But no matter how talented Rich Cho was in terms of evaluating players (Look at the Grizzlies now, Cho runs their analytics, it's no accident), Jordan still made stupid decisions.
Was dumping a black guy in Rod Higgins racism? Rich Cho was simply more experienced and more suited for the more fast paced analytics driven NBA.
Speaking of the Knicks. James Dolan hired Phil Jackson, who had no previous front office experience. Insisted on using a complicated offensive scheme that had no practical feeder system at the college level. Had made many enemies in the press and around the NBA as a head coach. To boot, Jackson was close to 70 years old when he was hired. What future was there if Jackson did have a good year?
So the Zen Master, a legendary HOF head coach, failed miserably at running a front office. More proof that just because you are good at one specific job in a professional sport, it doesn't mean you are going to be great at an entirely different role.
You want more black NFL GMs? Start a league supported feeder system that spins out from Daryl Morey's MIT Sloan Sports Conference every year. Start recruiting data scientists instead of former players.
Isaiah Thomas was one of the worst things that ever happened to the New York Knicks front office. Ever. Is it racism that he was a horrifically bad GM? Is it racism he got caught in some sexual scandal with a woman working for Dolan? Is it racism he drove the old Continental Basketball Association into the ground?
Something that doesn't get discussed here is that being black doesn't make you immune from being an idiot. Some people are just idiots. Old, young, man, woman, straight, gay, white, black, yellow, purple, it comes in all kinds of different packages.
I said this over a decade ago in the Shark Pool, and it's true to this day - If you fail at the resource management aspect of the NFL, your team is already a lose cause before it plays it's first snap of the season.
Anyone ever notice that the Patriots and Ravens have historically been the two teams that have gamed the Compensation Picks system the best year after year? Do you think it matters that Belichick is white or black for that to happen? Or Ozzie Newsome to be white or black for that to happen?
If you want more black GMs in the NFL, you need rising stars who understand resource management in a modern sports environment. Stephen Ross is not poaching the best talent he can find at MIT Sloan, that doesn't automatically cast him as a stone cold racist.
Phil Jackson's Triangle Offense had no practical bearing on the NBA's modern Space And Pace style game. Hiring Jackson was not some grand sweeping conspiracy by James Dolan as a super secret KKK Exalted Cyclops. Dolan was just too stupid to hire someone actually trained to be an NBA GM and was young enough to have longevity if he was actually successful with the team.
Stupid isn't racist. It's just stupid.
If Brian Flores wants more black GMs, he should start investing in starting coding camps and math camps and statistics camps for young black kids all over America. That would do more long term good for his goal than this bizarre ill conceived lawsuit.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Well, it is racist, but it’s a great example of systemic racism, a term that people despise because it implies the very fabric of the NFL / society is woven with such things.
How many qualified people of color have been passed over for a promotion because the manager or owner prefers to work with someone like them?
It’s the same thing, and it is racist. It’s not overt by any means. The hiring manager may not even believe themselves to be racist. But so long as these decisions are married to “I wanted to hire someone like me”, then people of color will never see equal opportunity.
I have no idea how to solve this, in the big picture or the NFL, but acknowledging the problem and agreeing there is a problem seems like a good 1st step.
Far too many in here seem to be in denial that the problem even exists.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I think the Jim Caldwell article is a great example. In the other threads about systemic issue or affirmative actions I hear a lot of "why can't we just hire the best people and not think about skin color". I think an example like that needs to be reconciled a bit as to why he is chilling out there, but way less qualified people are getting those jobs.
I also think we need to look at numbers and opportunities all along the chain. I we are seeing similar trends at each level, we should talk about that too.
I also think we need to look at numbers and opportunities all along the chain. I we are seeing similar trends at each level, we should talk about that too.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Flores also contends that the Broncos meeting started over an hour late...yet the Broncos claim to have detailed records that prove the meeting started on time and that the interviewers were present.
So a lot of serious accusations so far without a lot to back them up.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I've said elsewhere that I don't bother to debate the Rooney Rule anymore because I never find those discussions to be very productive, but there is a sentiment I've seen a couple times in this thread that I want to push back against: the notion that the RR is such a dumb idea, of course teams are just going to go out and schedule token interviews with minority candidates to check a box.
Even if you think the RR is the dumbest rule ever implemented, even if you think it's ineffective, even if you think it's racist, even if a team already knows who they want to hire, scheduling token interviews is still really horrible. For starters, you're wasting everyone's time. Second, you're wasting an opportunity to have some good come out of the situation. You could use the interview to explore different perspectives or types of candidates that you might not normally speak with, or to help groom candidates who might not be ready now for future opportunities. (I have heard some reports of that happening, but I suspect experiences like the one described by Bucs assistant Harold Goodwin are more typical).
But worst of all, it's just straight up disrespectful. If your problem is with the league, don't take it out on coaches who have done nothing but work hard in pursuit of their dream job. And it feeds into the cynicism among Black coaches that the game is rigged. I don't know if all of Flores' accusations are true, but based on numerous accounts I've read from Black coaches, the simmering anger that's fueling it is 100-percent genuine. That's why I rooting so hard for this lawsuit to succeed: because the collective behavior of a bunch of owners and GMs over the years is what has brought us to this point.
Even if you think the RR is the dumbest rule ever implemented, even if you think it's ineffective, even if you think it's racist, even if a team already knows who they want to hire, scheduling token interviews is still really horrible. For starters, you're wasting everyone's time. Second, you're wasting an opportunity to have some good come out of the situation. You could use the interview to explore different perspectives or types of candidates that you might not normally speak with, or to help groom candidates who might not be ready now for future opportunities. (I have heard some reports of that happening, but I suspect experiences like the one described by Bucs assistant Harold Goodwin are more typical).
But worst of all, it's just straight up disrespectful. If your problem is with the league, don't take it out on coaches who have done nothing but work hard in pursuit of their dream job. And it feeds into the cynicism among Black coaches that the game is rigged. I don't know if all of Flores' accusations are true, but based on numerous accounts I've read from Black coaches, the simmering anger that's fueling it is 100-percent genuine. That's why I rooting so hard for this lawsuit to succeed: because the collective behavior of a bunch of owners and GMs over the years is what has brought us to this point.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
So there’s a lot here.
I agree with quite a bit of it. But I don’t think it’s necessarily an either/or.
I believe most of what you suggest is on point. And I also believe that some of it has to do with discriminatory hiring practices and systemic racism.
The biggest part I agree with is that it is the entire ecosystem, and that college football is a huge part of that.
More candidates must come up through the ranks. And again, back to the black QB issue, there must be opportunity at all levels for the elite to bubble up to the pros. Otherwise we will continue to see a disparity in hiring people of color.
I also agree that it isn’t necessarily about hiring an equal number of any particular color of person. It’s about getting the best qualified people into those roles.
But for that to mean anything, the opportunity must also be equal. Otherwise you’ll merely see a distillation of the best of whatever makeup that group is, and for 102 years in the NFL, it’s been predominantly white.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
so you’ve seen the Bronco’s detailed records?
or are you simply choosing to believe the Bronco’s account over Flores’ account?
I haven’t seen either so I’m not sure what to believe, but I do find it interesting that you’ve seemingly cast judgement & have chosen to believe the broncos over Flores.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
As I said earlier. It’s all about perception and just look at the story this guy creates to justify his position.
He could be faced with all the proof there is and he’d never budge on what he thinks is going on.
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I'm sure it's obvious, but I have purposely stopped using those words much. Far too often on these boards I've encountered the sentiment that those words = white dudes sitting around and purposely plotting to hold POC down. It's not ever seems to be what people are talking about, and I've grown tired of wasting time defending against that idea.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Sorry, one more pet peeve. The notion that there aren't enough minority coaches because of the pipeline almost certainly has some degree of truth (and to its credit, the league has taken a few small steps in recent years to address this issue). At the same time, it is one of the oldest excuses in the book invoked by people who are challenged by the lack of diversity in an organization. It allows people to pretend there will be some future date when the pipeline problem will be solved, at which point we will be able to snap our fingers and ... Voila! Diversity!
It seems beyond obvious to me that, pipelines aside, there are structural issues with how NFL teams hire that lead to minority coaches being underrepresented. And of course, the pipelines are themselves influenced by those structural issues. Black assistants are less likely to become QB coaches, which means they're less likely to get OC jobs, which means they're less likely to get hired as HCs.
It seems beyond obvious to me that, pipelines aside, there are structural issues with how NFL teams hire that lead to minority coaches being underrepresented. And of course, the pipelines are themselves influenced by those structural issues. Black assistants are less likely to become QB coaches, which means they're less likely to get OC jobs, which means they're less likely to get hired as HCs.
PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
Ultimately, it all comes down bias. I think most people would agree owners aren’t overtly saying don't hire a black coach. Or fire him because hes black. But the outcomes we are seeing are obvious and point to a problem somewhere. That outcome is what people are calling the racism at play. I think people are confusing this with saying all the owners are racist or a specific person or action is racist. You can have racism at play without overtly racist acts occurring.
Now, what we see with regard to blacks in leadership roles in the NFL is not much different than in most organizations outside the NFL or sports. In leadership roles, people hire people in their network. The problem becomes when black people aren’t and have never been in this network or dont have access to this network. Thats a problem that wont be solved over time and often times it gets worse when we see even less diversity up the ranks.
How do you address it? Ive written long posts about this before but there is no short term answer unless strong intervention is taken. I think you can read this thread and know pretty quickly that many people wont like that. The rooney rule is a form of intervention with the goal of promoting some sort of diverse interactions in those networks. You cant change unconscious bias’ unless there is more diversity and integration across all levels of an organization. One interaction does not change unconscious bias however. It takes time and consistent interaction.
There are ways however to improve outcomes and hedge against the problem. For example when people learn to acknowledge their bias’ that can help someone make a decision while not allowing those bias' to impact said decision. But ultimately the real solution is long term diversity and integration at all levels.
But again, acknowledging there is a problem is the first step, and then identifying or shining a light on what that problem is is the second step. If that can happen, then progress can be made. It wont be as quick as i would like, but it would be a move in the right direction. But until we can even get there, things wont change. I am hopeful this will begin to truly shine a light on the issue and as seen in this thread it has at least sparked discussion which is a good thing.
Now, what we see with regard to blacks in leadership roles in the NFL is not much different than in most organizations outside the NFL or sports. In leadership roles, people hire people in their network. The problem becomes when black people aren’t and have never been in this network or dont have access to this network. Thats a problem that wont be solved over time and often times it gets worse when we see even less diversity up the ranks.
How do you address it? Ive written long posts about this before but there is no short term answer unless strong intervention is taken. I think you can read this thread and know pretty quickly that many people wont like that. The rooney rule is a form of intervention with the goal of promoting some sort of diverse interactions in those networks. You cant change unconscious bias’ unless there is more diversity and integration across all levels of an organization. One interaction does not change unconscious bias however. It takes time and consistent interaction.
There are ways however to improve outcomes and hedge against the problem. For example when people learn to acknowledge their bias’ that can help someone make a decision while not allowing those bias' to impact said decision. But ultimately the real solution is long term diversity and integration at all levels.
But again, acknowledging there is a problem is the first step, and then identifying or shining a light on what that problem is is the second step. If that can happen, then progress can be made. It wont be as quick as i would like, but it would be a move in the right direction. But until we can even get there, things wont change. I am hopeful this will begin to truly shine a light on the issue and as seen in this thread it has at least sparked discussion which is a good thing.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I want try to be clearer since I brought up looking at the pipeline.
What I meant is that there would be a different thing to address if say 50% of the assistants are black and only 1 HC vs. 5% of assistants are black and only 1 HC. IF it was the first, then I could see how we might see a turn around in HCs soon. If it's more like the 2nd, then like you said - IMO that points to more of a structural issue overall, not just in the process of HC selection.
I’ve seen a lot of information on NFL & college player breakdowns but don’t recall seeing anything on how the college coaching situation breaks down.
I would guess that a lot of NFL coaches get their start at the college ranks. As others have stated, you need a pipeline.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
There’s a wide chasm between “attends klan rallies” and “might want to hire Chad, the bro dude who grew up like me”, but they’re both forms of racism.
That said, I understand what you’re saying.
It seems like it’s important to at least acknowledge that there can be nuance/subtlety to such things. How much of a distinction there is would seem to be in the eye of the beholder.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
IMO the reason the Rooney Rule doesn't work is that the bias displayed by NFL owners falls somewhere between "implicit bias by otherwise well-meaning people" and "hood-wearing Klansmen". To be fair, it's definitely closer to the former than to the latter, but unfortunately it's not close enough. If they were genuinely committed to diversity, there's simply no way the stats would be this bad.
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
You know, I've told that story a bunch of times since it happened, usually verbally, and I think in writing it out I told an abbreviated version that didn't accurately convey what the professor's point was. I'll keep that in mind if I ever repeat it.
rockaction
Footballguy
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
So can we get him back as the dc or what? BOB oc. Ditch Steve. Thanks for the memorable faces and a defensive performance I’ll never be able to forget.. for all the wrong reasons.
My scoreboard at the moment on the race aspect is GG 80% winning the thread. 20% yes there’s still room for improvement on racial bias in the league. Historical impediment to meritocracy, remove any remaining bias by any means necessary, please. The actual fact of what percentage I don’t know but the argument is compelling.
When your HS hockey team stinks, you build a youth program if you care to improve. Get those kids on skates age 3-4. Recruit passionate coaches. Poach them from your neighboring town. Start a camp. The answer is more ice time, more drills, more games and better coaches.
The tanking bribery plus gambling entanglement is yikes city. Agree that is in my mind a stinkier kettle of fish than things that can be construed as bias but are not in and of themselves blatantly racist actions.
My scoreboard at the moment on the race aspect is GG 80% winning the thread. 20% yes there’s still room for improvement on racial bias in the league. Historical impediment to meritocracy, remove any remaining bias by any means necessary, please. The actual fact of what percentage I don’t know but the argument is compelling.
When your HS hockey team stinks, you build a youth program if you care to improve. Get those kids on skates age 3-4. Recruit passionate coaches. Poach them from your neighboring town. Start a camp. The answer is more ice time, more drills, more games and better coaches.
The tanking bribery plus gambling entanglement is yikes city. Agree that is in my mind a stinkier kettle of fish than things that can be construed as bias but are not in and of themselves blatantly racist actions.
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Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Joe Banner’s view:
The absurdity of suggestions that you can’t or shouldn’t call references of former employers is weakening Flores case every day. I can promise you he didn’t get the Miami job without getting good references. Would he hire an assistant that didn’t include references from people
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Some of you have never been to a Klan rally and it shows.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I don’t think anyone is conflating the racism thing with the throwing games thing. They can probably be discussed as mutually exclusive things.
I didn’t read anything where Flores said he was asked to throw games because he was black. Maybe I missed something.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Ridiculous position. But it's your free speech.
List of current National Football League head coaches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_head_coaches
List of current National Football League offensive coordinators
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_National_Football_League_offensive_coordinators
*****
Do you see a trend?
While there are some clear exceptions, there is clearly a huge focus on head coaches with an offensive/passing background. Some long tenured offensive coordinators who ascended and many former backup QBs.
And how do current offensive coordinators tend to play out? Most of them are former QB coaches. Again you have a lot of former non elite QBs. Do you think Byron Leftwich is there because there was some magical woke dust powder tossed on him by some progressive front office? No, he's there because he is a former QB1.
Brian Flores is from the DEFENSIVE SIDE OF THE BALL.
Like many coordinators on winning teams and teams that made deep playoff runs/into the Super Bowl, his coaching star rose accordingly. Was Flores lucky or unlucky because of his race or was he really lucky for having such a long tenure with New England and was seen in the playoffs year after year?
Was Brian Daboll getting a head coaching job a product of racism against black coaches? Or was it because he was from clearly coveted offensive pedigree where he was seen as instrumental in the success of Josh Allen and had Patriots legacy on his resume and it's clear he paid his dues to grind his way upwards? The Giants are looking at Daniel Jones and want to know if they can find a way to get him moving forward and entering into his critical 4th season in the league. Is that such a hard motive to see in broad daylight?
Rooney Rule would be working great for Flores IF HE WAS AN OFFENSIVE GURU, WITH A LONG HISTORY OF OFFENSIVE CREATIVITY AND SUCCESS AND HAD HIS COACHING PRAISED CONSTANTLY BY PRO BOWL LEVEL YOUNG QB1s.
A fair argument could be made that if you are an African American elite level QB coach or offensive coordinator or passing specialist coach on a perennially winning franchise, that the Rooney Rule would operate as a massive advantage for your entire career situation and opportunity.
How can Flores say the Rooney Rule doesn't work? He got to be a head coach for three full seasons despite not being from coveted offensive pedigree. He likely got interviews that might have gone to some QB coaches who might be seen as future sleeper coaching stars otherwise.
What exactly is Flores trying to say here? That he's not getting equal opportunity? Or that he's not getting "equal outcome"? It appears even he has no clue in that regard.
Do you want to address any of that? Of course you don't, you just want to blow your racist whistle without any practical context as to how league trends operate for coaching positions. The current NFL is an offensive dominant league and a QB1 driven league and Flores practical skill set offers limited value to that end. You could be a Martian with three heads and eat baby pandas for dinner every night and if you could turn someone like Browning Nagle into a Pro Bowler, someone will find you a job leading a team somewhere.
Is the biggest crime for Brian Flores because of his race? Or is it because he's not a former mediocre clipboard carrying sideline football Jesus channeling his deepest Matt Saracen?
GregR
Footballguy
That doesn't sound like a correct description, but maybe I'm the one who is wrong.
I thought Flores said Elway arrived an hour late, not that the meeting started an hour late. And I thought the Broncos said they had 5 people there interviewing him, and I got the impression they were the ones who were there on time. But I didn't see anything that Elway was one of them who was on time.
Can you give a link where they get specific on saying otherwise?
GordonGekko
Footballguy
List of starting black NFL quarterbacks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_starting_black_NFL_quarterbacks#Full_list
****
So here is a list of all the former black QBs who played in the NFL.
Obviously remove all the guys from the current era of play who are still in the league or on the fringes of being in the league and aren't retired. Then remove the generation long gone, either past away or too old now.
The remove all the guys with clear legal problems/scandals that would functionally prevent them from practically being an NFL head coach ( Vick with the dogs, Quincy Carter and the coke, Kaepernick and his social justice, etc, etc)
Do the handful of the rest
1) Have the actual talent to be an effective NFL QB1 coach or offensive coordinator?
2) Appear willing to endure the dog eat dog brutal grind of being an NFL coach? (Esp if they've made enough to retire or qualified for a league pension)
3) Showed enough in their playing career with tenure to take a track like a Frank Reich or a Doug Pederson?
Is this all a product of some kind of racism or is this a product of the frequency of former mediocre backup QBs tends to lean towards more quantity of retired white fringe clipboard saviors?
There's still a filtering process in all levels of football. Is this the problem for the NFL at the top end of the heap or a problem in how kids are sorted out into positions at lower levels of competition? Is this such a hard thing to figure out here? Lots of lower level football has the best athlete end up the running back. You want your best talent to touch the ball as much as possible. And once some guys get seen and viewed as a running back, then that's that. There is also the issue of height. Lots of black guys with that athleticism level aren't tall enough or can't be unique like Russell Wilson to overcome to combine with the complex skills required to run an offense. And that's not a race statement, lots of white QB prospects can't effectively process the speed of the game at multiple levels of football enough to be competitive.
Lots of guys get filtered out of the quarterback position for multiple other practical reasons besides race - i.e. they just can't do the job effectively and consistently.
Is it racism if Doug Pederson is willing to eat the crap/brutality/long hours/punishment/attrition required to grind out an NFL coaching career but Ray Lucas would rather do something else?
greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
Without digging up the actual quote which is in the document that anyone can read. It’s made out that the way in which the team interviewed him struck him as super obviously a token meeting.
Edit- regarding the Denver interview
Edit- regarding the Denver interview
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greenmountaingoat
Footballguy
The link is in the OP
