Commish Problem (1 Viewer)

[Shadowfax]

A problem has come up in one of my leagues.

Trade 1 - Team A proposed Ricky Williams to Team B for Calvin Johnson via website. Team B accepted.

Trade 2 - Team C proposed Boldin to Team A for Ricky. Team A and C agreed to a trade via email before Trade 1 is accepted and Team A accepted when proposed on website.

Problem is Trade 1 was accepted on website before Trade 2. Team A communicated to commish his trade preference before the commish approved.

Team A would rather have Boldin/Trade 2 and states that he should have a right to cancel before it's finalized. He argues that since it's his player, he should have had the right to choose either trade before commish approval...and that since Commish has to approve all trades before their final that technically all players are still available until commish approval.

Team B says his trade was accepted first via website and should be the final trade.

Which trade should be approved? What say you?

 

[Touchdown Syndrome]

Whichever trade was accepted first (the one for Calvin) should be the one that counts. Common sense.

 

[Incog]

Gonna side with Team B. If Team A wanted Boldin so badly he should have taken the first trade off the website.

 

[MIMN]

Whichever trade was accepted first (the one for Calvin) should be the one that counts. Common sense.

Exactly. First completed transaction is final.P.S. Commish approval of trades is stupid

 

[Ruffrodys05]

A problem has come up in one of my leagues.

Trade 1 - Team A proposed Ricky Williams to Team B for Calvin Johnson via website. Team B accepted.

Trade 2 - Team C proposed Boldin to Team A for Ricky. Team A and C agreed to a trade via email before Trade 1 is accepted and Team A accepted when proposed on website.

Problem is Trade 1 was accepted on website before Trade 2. Team A communicated to commish his trade preference before the commish approved.

Team A would rather have Boldin/Trade 2 and states that he should have a right to cancel before it's finalized. He argues that since it's his player, he should have had the right to choose either trade before commish approval...and that since Commish has to approve all trades before their final that technically all players are still available until commish approval.

Team B says his trade was accepted first via website and should be the final trade.

Which trade should be approved? What say you?

Trade 2 is the one that counts. Timing is everything. Not the website, unless there are specific rules that state "once accepted it counts". Apparently there is still a Commissioner approval process (which I disagree with, but that's irrelevant) so the trade(s) are not "official" until approved by the commish. Proof of email confirmation of Trade 2 (which would include a time stamp) is all I would need as a commish to determine which trade gets approved. This one seems simple enough to me. Why do so many people hang their hat on the damn website?

 

[Shadowfax]

Whichever trade was accepted first (the one for Calvin) should be the one that counts. Common sense.

This is part of the problem also. Trade 2 was accepted first via email. Trade 1 accepted first on the site. No league rules on this particular matter so which trade was really accepted first?

 

[Shadowfax]

Gonna side with Team B. If Team A wanted Boldin so badly he should have taken the first trade off the website.

I don't disagree with this but I don't know if Team A had access to the site to cancel the Calvin trade.

 

[Shadowfax]

Whichever trade was accepted first (the one for Calvin) should be the one that counts. Common sense.

Exactly. First completed transaction is final.P.S. Commish approval of trades is stupid

This would be a good rule. I though most leagues had some sort of commish approval?? I never really understood it but it's time to get rid of it. That eliminates all this gray area.

 

[Bucco Bruce]

Whichever trade was accepted through the website 1st must go through IMO.

 

[Penguin]

Gonna side with Team B. If Team A wanted Boldin so badly he should have taken the first trade off the website.

I don't disagree with this but I don't know if Team A had access to the site to cancel the Calvin trade.

If he had access to email I'd think there's a good chance he had access to the website at that time

 

[ratbast]

If I was commish I would tell team A that he needs to convince team B to undo the trade. The commish does Not need to get involved here unless Team A called him for the Boldin trade and told him it had precedence BEFORE the calvin trade was accepted thus meaning the rights to Rickey were not owned by team A.

There doesn't need to be a rule, its chronological.

 

[Chairshot]

Unless your league has a rule that states that trades are limited to those made on the website, I'd say the the 1st trade that is agreed to is the one that should stand, regardless of how it was agreed to.

If they can verify by time stamp that the email trade was agreed to 1st, then that one must stand.

 

[PosterNutBag]

As a commish, I would rule that the website trade stands (in a league where the rules don't state otherwise). Most leagues use websites for the ease of everything and as a commish, a private email exchange of a trade between owners is not an official trade, but rather an agreement in principle. They have to both do the trade on the website or both report it to the commish to make it official. Unless both teams reported the trade via email to the commish before the other deal went through the website, there is no way I would allow Trade 2 to stand over Trade 1.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Whichever trade was accepted first (the one for Calvin) should be the one that counts. Common sense.

This is part of the problem also. Trade 2 was accepted first via email. Trade 1 accepted first on the site. No league rules on this particular matter so which trade was really accepted first?

if trade was accepted via email that one is the one that needs be done. Make sure it was ACCEPTED (is ask to look at emails/timestamps etc) but once accepted it is done. A Trade OFFER is just that, an offer. And with "unique" items (like this with there only being one RW) That player was no longer on his team to trade, as he had been traded to Team 2 (pending league approval). Now owner should have pulled it off, and Team 1 will be upset, but they "waited too long" whether they knew it or not.In Law it would be possible for team 1 to sue owner. Here he'll just get heckled.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Whichever trade was accepted first (the one for Calvin) should be the one that counts. Common sense.

Exactly. First completed transaction is final.P.S. Commish approval of trades is stupid

its amazing how people just put what they want into "common sense". This isn't a house where u have to register a deed. Dude had offers out obviously. Someone else took the offer first. whether or not it was sent/accepted on the site is the paperwork. However if the other owner had ACCEPTED first, they would be entitled to him.Pretty clear cut IMO.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Gonna side with Team B. If Team A wanted Boldin so badly he should have taken the first trade off the website.

I don't disagree with this but I don't know if Team A had access to the site to cancel the Calvin trade.

Bad form no doubt, but the rules don't dictate that any way is mandated/superior. Like when you are selling a car. If you have 5 people coming by to look at it, and the first guy buys it, you don't necessarily owe the other 4 coming later anything, but it's a mite dickish to not call em.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Whichever trade was accepted through the website 1st must go through IMO.

maybe if an online league. But the website is a "memorialization" of your league. Why should it trump a prior contract? Especially when not in the rules?

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Gonna side with Team B. If Team A wanted Boldin so badly he should have taken the first trade off the website.

I don't disagree with this but I don't know if Team A had access to the site to cancel the Calvin trade.

If he had access to email I'd think there's a good chance he had access to the website at that time

some offices blocks "games" timesuck sites, but allow access to email.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

As a commish, I would rule that the website trade stands (in a league where the rules don't state otherwise). Most leagues use websites for the ease of everything and as a commish, a private email exchange of a trade between owners is not an official trade, but rather an agreement in principle. They have to both do the trade on the website or both report it to the commish to make it official. Unless both teams reported the trade via email to the commish before the other deal went through the website, there is no way I would allow Trade 2 to stand over Trade 1.

This isn't YOUR league. Their rules are silent on subjects you seem so inclined to fiat into existence because that is how you think. Tell us why any of the underlined portion is true for their league? That sounds like 2-4 rules that could be added to the league, but they werent there before.

 

[skbatmen]

Once Trade 1 was accepted, Trade 2 isn't possible. Just because the commissioner needs to approve a trade doesn't makeTrade 1 void, it makes it pending commissioner approval.

 

[Incog]

It seems to me that commish approval exists only to make sure there isn't any collusion and not to decide who wanted who first on a verbal or email agreement. Priority should be given to what trade went through first on the website. Trade 1 went through first, commish should give approval/priority to that one before the second one.

Team A would rather have Boldin/Trade 2 and states that he should have a right to cancel before it's finalized. He argues that since it's his player, he should have had the right to choose either trade before commish approval...and that since Commish has to approve all trades before their final that technically all players are still available until commish approval.

I see a situation where a player can make all kinds of trades, get accepted on all and have his pick as to which one would benefit him the best. Not sure if that's what they intended when they made a rule requiring commish approval. Team B accepted the trade thus "finalizing" the trade on both sides.

 

[pantagrapher]

Team B was offered a trade and accepted. Now two parties are claiming a "better offer" was negotiated earlier? Sounds fishy. I agree with the person who said the league site should be the final official means of consummating a league trade. Simple and easy.

 

[flranger]

I'm still baffled by folks who mandate commish approval. If the trade stinks that bad just reverse it. It's much simpler.

 

[BobbyLayne]

A problem has come up in one of my leagues.

Trade 1 - Team A proposed Ricky Williams to Team B for Calvin Johnson via website. Team B accepted.

Trade 2 - Team C proposed Boldin to Team A for Ricky. Team A and C agreed to a trade via email before Trade 1 is accepted and Team A accepted when proposed on website.

Problem is Trade 1 was accepted on website before Trade 2. Team A communicated to commish his trade preference before the commish approved.

Team A would rather have Boldin/Trade 2 and states that he should have a right to cancel before it's finalized. He argues that since it's his player, he should have had the right to choose either trade before commish approval...and that since Commish has to approve all trades before their final that technically all players are still available until commish approval.

Team B says his trade was accepted first via website and should be the final trade.

Which trade should be approved? What say you?

Trade 2 is the one that counts. Timing is everything. Not the website, unless there are specific rules that state "once accepted it counts". Apparently there is still a Commissioner approval process (which I disagree with, but that's irrelevant) so the trade(s) are not "official" until approved by the commish. Proof of email confirmation of Trade 2 (which would include a time stamp) is all I would need as a commish to determine which trade gets approved. This one seems simple enough to me. Why do so many people hang their hat on the damn website?

Maybe because me and my 11 league mates have access to the site. Transactions that take place there are transparent to all.E-mail is private and not accessible by anyone except the owner of the account...OK, you can finish the thought, the answer should be obvious by now.

 

[belljr]

We have a rule that all trades must be submitted via the website. First one I see sent to me is the one I would approve.

And by approve - I mean makes sure the roster is still legal, etc. I don't veto trades, I approve just for "paperwork" purposes

 

[Birdie048]

Whichever trade was accepted first (the one for Calvin) should be the one that counts. Common sense.

Exactly. First completed transaction is final.

P.S. Commish approval of trades is stupid

First traded accepted on the site counts as the only trade. The other deal was just talk...

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

Commish approving trades is asinine.

First trade accepted at the site is the ONLY valid trade.

 

[The_U]

Commish approving trades is asinine.First trade accepted at the site is the ONLY valid trade.

"Ditto"

 

[Shadowfax]

I was all set to rule that the first trade on the site is approved. But now I hear Team C acquired Boldin in order to trade him for Ricky, which he proposed on the site immediately after acquiring Boldin. Team C had to finalized the trade via email because the site doesn't allow 3 team trades and he couldn't propose the trade for Ricky because he didn't have Boldin yet.

I'm not sure what the fair play is here.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

I was all set to rule that the first trade on the site is approved. But now I hear Team C acquired Boldin in order to trade him for Ricky, which he proposed on the site immediately after acquiring Boldin. Team C had to finalized the trade via email because the site doesn't allow 3 team trades and he couldn't propose the trade for Ricky because he didn't have Boldin yet. I'm not sure what the fair play is here.

The fair and ONLY play is to approve the first trade, then if he wants to trade him after that for Ricky, then approve that trade when it happens. No offense, but this isn't rocket science.

 

[pantagrapher]

I was all set to rule that the first trade on the site is approved. But now I hear Team C acquired Boldin in order to trade him for Ricky, which he proposed on the site immediately after acquiring Boldin. Team C had to finalized the trade via email because the site doesn't allow 3 team trades and he couldn't propose the trade for Ricky because he didn't have Boldin yet. I'm not sure what the fair play is here.

I don't think this changes anything. Hell, it reinforces the reason all trades must go through the league site to be official. Otherwise you have a commissioner trying to sort out who intended to trade what and when and with whom. Needless headache, and unfair to Team B.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Commish approving trades is asinine.

First trade accepted at the site is the ONLY valid trade.

Why? The onkly answer to my question is "because the rules say so," which they dont.You 9and the others in this thread remind me of a commish in one of my leagues. He essentially "borrows" logic and rules from his other leagues and wants to apply them as "obvious'. Umm the reason we have rules/laws, is because what is obvious to you, isn't obvious to others. mostly as by going of the law of contracts in this country, when the offer gets ACCEPTED first is paramount. hands down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offer_and_acceptance

Offer and acceptance analysis is a traditional approach in contract law used to determine whether an agreement exists between two parties. As a contract is an agreement, an offer is an indication by one person (the "offeror") to another (the "offeree") of the offeror's willingness to enter into a contract on certain terms without further negotiations. A contract is said to come into existence when acceptance of an offer (agreement to the terms in it) has been communicated to the offeror by the offeree.

This happens the INSTANT that the email trade was consumated. That it wasn't memorialized on the site first is irrelevant. If u and i meet in the street 9while i have offers out to other teams) and agree by handshake to a trade, but in the 10 minutes it takes me to get to a computer someone else accepts a trade on the site just as I get on, you think the trade on the sit eis more valid? Now this could lead to abuses if you play with liars and cheats, but every email has a timestamp. you don't need to take their word for it, you can check and see exactly when that trade was agreed to, and if it precedes the site trade then the "street trade' should hold, under the USC Code/ federal contract law.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

I was all set to rule that the first trade on the site is approved. But now I hear Team C acquired Boldin in order to trade him for Ricky, which he proposed on the site immediately after acquiring Boldin. Team C had to finalized the trade via email because the site doesn't allow 3 team trades and he couldn't propose the trade for Ricky because he didn't have Boldin yet. I'm not sure what the fair play is here.

I don't think this changes anything.

I agree with this.

Hell, it reinforces the reason all trades must go through the league site to be official. Otherwise you have a commissioner trying to sort out who intended to trade what and when and with whom. Needless headache, and unfair to Team B.

I disagree with this. It illustrates WHY such a rule would be easier and would be an argument for creating such a rule, but in the absence of a rule "what seems right to you" isn't the standard.

 

[pantagrapher]

Commish approving trades is asinine.

First trade accepted at the site is the ONLY valid trade.

Why? The onkly answer to my question is "because the rules say so," which they dont.You 9and the others in this thread remind me of a commish in one of my leagues. He essentially "borrows" logic and rules from his other leagues and wants to apply them as "obvious'. Umm the reason we have rules/laws, is because what is obvious to you, isn't obvious to others. mostly as by going of the law of contracts in this country, when the offer gets ACCEPTED first is paramount. hands down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offer_and_acceptance

Offer and acceptance analysis is a traditional approach in contract law used to determine whether an agreement exists between two parties. As a contract is an agreement, an offer is an indication by one person (the "offeror") to another (the "offeree") of the offeror's willingness to enter into a contract on certain terms without further negotiations. A contract is said to come into existence when acceptance of an offer (agreement to the terms in it) has been communicated to the offeror by the offeree.

This happens the INSTANT that the email trade was consumated. That it wasn't memorialized on the site first is irrelevant. If u and i meet in the street 9while i have offers out to other teams) and agree by handshake to a trade, but in the 10 minutes it takes me to get to a computer someone else accepts a trade on the site just as I get on, you think the trade on the sit eis more valid? Now this could lead to abuses if you play with liars and cheats, but every email has a timestamp. you don't need to take their word for it, you can check and see exactly when that trade was agreed to, and if it precedes the site trade then the "street trade' should hold, under the USC Code/ federal contract law.

So given the choice between a rule that could lead to abuses and one that couldn't, you opt for the one that could lead to abuses and subsequent lawsuits by pedantic owners?

 

[da_budman]

Commish approving trades is asinine.First trade accepted at the site is the ONLY valid trade.

If the league had a rule that says the commish being informed of the trade by both sides makes it official this little problem would have been avoided so calling it asinine is rediculous. Also how many times do we read here, I misclicked and accidently accepted a trade? Hard to mis-click a call to the commish huh? Not asinine at all. A definitive way to handle trades IMHO. Once BOTH owners have contacted the commish about a trade only then is it complete.As to the particular trade here, I would say that if the league rules dont prevent either method of trading, you have to go with whichever one was agreed to first.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

I was all set to rule that the first trade on the site is approved. But now I hear Team C acquired Boldin in order to trade him for Ricky, which he proposed on the site immediately after acquiring Boldin. Team C had to finalized the trade via email because the site doesn't allow 3 team trades and he couldn't propose the trade for Ricky because he didn't have Boldin yet. I'm not sure what the fair play is here.

I don't think this changes anything.

I agree with this.

Hell, it reinforces the reason all trades must go through the league site to be official. Otherwise you have a commissioner trying to sort out who intended to trade what and when and with whom. Needless headache, and unfair to Team B.

I disagree with this. It illustrates WHY such a rule would be easier and would be an argument for creating such a rule, but in the absence of a rule "what seems right to you" isn't the standard.

Quit sounding like a lawyer. It should be what's easiest for the commish, and with the smallest margin of error, and that is that a trade isn't official until it is accepted at the league site.

 

[hoopvillian]

Commish approving trades is asinine.

First trade accepted at the site is the ONLY valid trade.

Why? The onkly answer to my question is "because the rules say so," which they dont.You 9and the others in this thread remind me of a commish in one of my leagues. He essentially "borrows" logic and rules from his other leagues and wants to apply them as "obvious'. Umm the reason we have rules/laws, is because what is obvious to you, isn't obvious to others. mostly as by going of the law of contracts in this country, when the offer gets ACCEPTED first is paramount. hands down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offer_and_acceptance

Offer and acceptance analysis is a traditional approach in contract law used to determine whether an agreement exists between two parties. As a contract is an agreement, an offer is an indication by one person (the "offeror") to another (the "offeree") of the offeror's willingness to enter into a contract on certain terms without further negotiations. A contract is said to come into existence when acceptance of an offer (agreement to the terms in it) has been communicated to the offeror by the offeree.

This happens the INSTANT that the email trade was consumated. That it wasn't memorialized on the site first is irrelevant. If u and i meet in the street 9while i have offers out to other teams) and agree by handshake to a trade, but in the 10 minutes it takes me to get to a computer someone else accepts a trade on the site just as I get on, you think the trade on the sit eis more valid? Now this could lead to abuses if you play with liars and cheats, but every email has a timestamp. you don't need to take their word for it, you can check and see exactly when that trade was agreed to, and if it precedes the site trade then the "street trade' should hold, under the USC Code/ federal contract law.

So given the choice between a rule that could lead to abuses and one that couldn't, you opt for the one that could lead to abuses and subsequent lawsuits by pedantic owners?

Agree with this post. Doesn't make sense. If your league uses a website, then the website trade is the valid trade. The tools are there to avoid situations like this.

 

[pantagrapher]

I was all set to rule that the first trade on the site is approved. But now I hear Team C acquired Boldin in order to trade him for Ricky, which he proposed on the site immediately after acquiring Boldin. Team C had to finalized the trade via email because the site doesn't allow 3 team trades and he couldn't propose the trade for Ricky because he didn't have Boldin yet. I'm not sure what the fair play is here.

I don't think this changes anything.

I agree with this.

Hell, it reinforces the reason all trades must go through the league site to be official. Otherwise you have a commissioner trying to sort out who intended to trade what and when and with whom. Needless headache, and unfair to Team B.

I disagree with this. It illustrates WHY such a rule would be easier and would be an argument for creating such a rule, but in the absence of a rule "what seems right to you" isn't the standard.

There's no absence of a rule. It's the default rule. You set up a league on a website and trades go through on that league website. Anything else is outside of the league website and outside of the default rules.