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[wannabee]

What are your thoughts on these predictions, as well as where do you rank those not listed in this article?

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10240023

In or out? Will these stars of today be HOF-bound tomorrow?

June 28, 2007

By Pete Prisco

CBS SportsLine.com Senior Writer

We're about a month away from the Pro Football Hall of Fame inductions, the unofficial kickoff to the new NFL season.

Since we're in a dead month before the open of training camp, I thought it a good time to break down Hall of Fame prospects from among 45 active NFL stars.

For example, is Peyton Manning in no matter what happens to him the rest of the way? What about Tom Brady? Isaac Bruce? Torry Holt?

Players with at least six years of experience are the ones I considered, and I used four categories in deciding HOF verdicts for each player:

• 1. The best is "Welcome to Canton" -- they're in.

• 2. Next is "On the Bubble" -- they're close.

• 3. Then it's "Needs more Work."

• 4. "No way."

Just shy of six years are players like Baltimore Ravens safety Ed Reed, San Diego Chargers tight end Antonio Gates and Carolina Panthers defensive end Julius Peppers. They're all off to good starts, but they haven't played enough seasons to qualify for consideration here.

Enjoy the list. And, as usual, I'm prepared for those nasty replies that will tell me a lot of things. Like how many of you think my father runs CBS, which is why I have a job. Or that I have no chance to ever make it into the writer's wing of the Hall.

I'm used to all of it by now ... bring it on.

Shaun Alexander, RB, Seattle Seahawks

Decision: Needs more work.

He's 25th on the all-time rushing list, so he has a chance. He needs to bounce back with a season like he had in 2005.

Larry Allen, G, San Francisco 49ers

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

For much of the 1990s and into this decade, Allen was the best guard -- and some say offensive linemen -- in the game. He's a shoo-in.

Champ Bailey, CB, Denver Broncos

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

I think he's the best defensive player in the league, and two more years playing at the same level will give him 10. He's then a lock on all lists.

Ronde Barber, CB, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Decision: No way.

His brother, Tiki, has a better chance. Ronde has been the perfect corner for the Bucs' Cover-2 scheme, but is he a great corner? I say no.

Tom Brady, QB, New England Patriots

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

Three Super Bowl rings and some big-time numbers have him in already. Scary thing is, he's far from finished.

Derrick Brooks, LB, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

He redefined the outside linebacker position, which is a sign of greatness. He made it a speed position. Plus, he's been a great player in doing so.

Isaac Bruce, WR, St. Louis Rams

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

Bruce is seventh in catches with 887 and could get to fifth with a good season in 2007. He's seventh in receiving yards with 13,376 yards, and with 524 yards this season, he would move him into fourth place on that list. That's impressive.

Tedy Bruschi, LB, New England Patriots

Decision: No way.

He was a feisty player who helped those Patriots win three Super Bowls, but was he ever the best defensive player on the field?

Brian Dawkins, S, Philadelphia Eagles

Decision: On the bubble.

He has been one of the most-dominant safeties for a long time. But safeties have a tough time getting in, for whatever reason. If he can have a year or two like he did in 2006, he has a chance.

Warrick Dunn, RB, Atlanta Falcons

Decision: No way.

He has some nice numbers, placing him 22nd on the all-time list. But he needs two or three more good seasons for consideration.

Alan Faneca, G, Pittsburgh Steelers

Decision: Needs more work.

He's a Hall of Fame run blocker, but he hasn't been great in pass protection. He's just a notch below Hall material.

Brett Favre, QB, Green Bay Packers

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

He's as easy a pick as any on the list. Favre is a football legend who happens to still be playing.

Tony Gonzalez, TE, Kansas City Chiefs

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

He's the second most-prolific pass-catching tight end ever. He has allowed the Chiefs to get by without many good receivers. He's a special weapon in the middle of the field.

Marvin Harrison, WR, Indianapolis Colts

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

He's fourth all time in receptions and has a lot more left. He has his eyes on the top spot and Jerry Rice.

Rodney Harrison, S, New England Patriots

Decision: On the bubble.

Some will say he should get in, but I think he's another who was just very good, but not great. Winning a Super Bowl with the Pats will help.

Torry Holt, WR, St. Louis Rams

Decision: Needs more work.

He's still relatively young and playing at a high level, so he has time to get the work done. But for whatever reason, he doesn't get the due he deserves and that may hurt down the road.

Joe Horn, WR, Atlanta Falcons

Decision: No way.

He was a nice player, but not a Hall of Fame player. Was he ever one of the league's truly great receivers?

Steve Hutchinson, G, Minnesota Vikings

Decision: Needs more work.

He's been one of the best guards in football -- and the best at times -- the past five years, but he needs more time to show he can sustain it.

Edgerrin James, RB, Arizona Cardinals

Decision: Needs more work.

He's over 10,000 yards, but I still think he needs more work. He better hope 2006 was an aberration and was more about the Cardinals' line than his abilities.

Chad Johnson, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

Decision: Needs more work.

He has 466 catches in his first six seasons, and has averaged over 90 each of the past four seasons. He would need to do that for another five to seven seasons to be considered.

Walter Jones, T, Seattle Seahawks

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

For the past seven years, he has been the best offensive lineman in the league. That's high praise.

Ty Law, CB, Kansas City Chiefs

Decision: On the bubble.

Some people will say he's a candidate, but I don't think he will get in. He's been a nice player, but not a great one.

Ray Lewis, LB, Baltimore Ravens

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

There is no doubt about it. He's been the best middle linebacker in the league for a long, long time.

John Lynch, S, Denver Broncos

Decision: On the bubble.

A lot of people will say he should go in, but I think he's been a good, not great player. There have been a handful of better safeties in the league his entire NFL career.

Peyton Manning, QB, Indianapolis Colts

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

No matter what he does the rest of his career Manning will be in the Hall. Even without the Super Bowl, he was on his way. Now he's a lock.

Kevin Mawae, C, Tennessee Titans

Decision: No way.

He's been a damn good center, but he probably isn't going to get in. He'll get considered, but he'll probably miss out.

Keenan McCardell, WR, Unsigned

Decision: Needs more work.

He is ninth all time with 861 catches, but he's done so mostly out of the spotlight. He did win a Super Bowl with Tampa Bay, which will help. He says he wants to play until he gets 1,000 catches. If that happens, who knows?

Donovan McNabb, QB, Philadelphia Eagles

Decision: Needs more work.

He's been a good quarterback, but has he ever been the best in the NFL? He hasn't done enough yet, and needs some big years to get there.

Steve McNair, QB, Baltimore Ravens

Decision: No way.

Even though he won co-MVP honors with Manning in 2003 -- how that happened is a whole different story -- he hasn't done enough.

Randy Moss, WR, New England Patriots

Decision: Needs more work.

I've seen some opinions that no matter what he does, he can't get in because he quit on his team. That's crazy. If he can revert to the old Moss, and put up big numbers for a few more years, he deserves to get in.

Jonathan Ogden, T, Baltimore Ravens

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

Even though his play has slipped some, and he was never better than Jacksonville's Tony Boselli despite what some people might think, he's on his way to getting a gold jacket.

Terrell Owens, WR, Dallas Cowboys

Decision: On the bubble.

Some might be surprised to see him here, but he's 17th all time in receptions with 801 and he's 16th in yards receiving with 11,715 yards. With a good season, he can move into the top-10 in both categories. Forget the attitude, he's had a heck of a career.

Orlando Pace, T, St. Louis Rams

Decision: On the bubble.

He wasn't as good as Ogden and he's not as good as Jones. But he's been a heck of a player for a long time.

Simeon Rice, DE, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Decision: Needs more work.

He's put up some amazing sack numbers, but the perception is he hasn't played the run well during his career, which he's fought hard to change. He needs two or three more big sack years. Does he have it in him?

Warren Sapp, DT, Oakland Raiders

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

He might be the surliest player in the league -- how was he left off Freeman's All-Jerk squad? -- but he was a dominant inside player for a long time. Like him or not, he should go in.

Richard Seymour, DE, New England Patriots

Decision: Needs more work.

He's the best defensive player on the Patriots, and has been for some time. I think he's two good years away from being in.

Rod Smith, WR, Denver Broncos

Decision: On the bubble.

He has the numbers, but was he ever a truly great player? His numbers will carry a lot of weight when it's his time, but it's going to be a tough sell.

Mike Strahan, DE, New York Giants

Decision: Welcome to Canton.

He's been a dominant player for a long time, but is he in the Bruce Smith-Reggie White class? He's not, but he's the all-time sack leader. Plus, the media likes him. He'll get in.

Fred Taylor, RB, Jacksonville Jaguars

Decision: Needs more work.

He is closing in on 10,000 yards and has one of the best per-carry averages of all the leading rushers in league history. But he needs one or two more good years for consideration.

Jason Taylor, DE, Miami Dolphins

Decision: On the bubble.

Taylor has been a heck of a player, and winning Defensive Player of the Year honors in 2006 will help, but he needs a couple more big sack years to have a chance.

Zach Thomas, LB, Miami Dolphins

Decision: No way.

He was a good player but overrated at times. He's in the Hall of Good, but not the Hall of Fame.

LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, San Diego Chargers

Decision: On the bubble.

If he has another LT-like season in 2007, he's in. So it's basically just a formality. He's halfway to the rushing record.

Brian Urlacher, LB, Chicago Bears

Decision: Needs more work.

He's got a good start, but he has a long way to go to be a Hall of Fame player. Then again, the lineage of his middle linebacker spot with the Bears is a good one.

Adam Vinatieri, K, Indianapolis Colts

Decision: On the bubble.

It's tough to get kickers into the Hall, but his clutch kicking for the Patriots, helping them to three Super Bowl victories, will help. Also, he's far from done.

Kurt Warner, QB, Arizona Cardinals

Decision: No way.

Despite being a two-time MVP, Warner's success was too short. But he should go into the Good-guy Hall of Fame.

(Note: Kicker Morten Andersen, G Will Shields and RB Curtis Martin were not included in the list since they are all likely finished playing. P.S.: They're all probably on their way to being elected.)

 

[Da Flyin Lion]

I'm not sure any of the WRs on your list not named Moss, Harrison and Owens have much of a chance to get in. And Moss and Owens need to play at a high level for another 3+ years. These three guys have consistently been top 3 since the late 90s and assuming Moss get's back on track with the Raiders, they should stay up there for a couple more.

Holt, CJ and Steve Smith are on track but are not a lock.

Horn, McCardell and Rod Smith will probably be on the outside looking in.

The only player I have on the bubble is Isaac Bruce who's had a great career and some top seasons, but I could still see him getting the "Art Monk Snub"

As for RB's, The only two I'd consider right now are Alexander and Tomlinson.

Tiki and Martin will probalby get in as fan favorites too. Edge will have to take AZ to the playoffs to be considered.

 

[TheLastDispatch]

What are your thoughts on these predictions, as well as where do you rank those not listed in this article?

Chad Johnson, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

Decision: Needs more work.

He has 466 catches in his first six seasons, and has averaged over 90 each of the past four seasons. He would need to do that for another five to seven seasons to be considered.

Terrell Owens, WR, Dallas Cowboys

Decision: On the bubble.

Some might be surprised to see him here, but he's 17th all time in receptions with 801 and he's 16th in yards receiving with 11,715 yards. With a good season, he can move into the top-10 in both categories. Forget the attitude, he's had a heck of a career.

Brian Urlacher, LB, Chicago Bears

Decision: Needs more work.

He's got a good start, but he has a long way to go to be a Hall of Fame player. Then again, the lineage of his middle linebacker spot with the Bears is a good one.

CJ needs to do what he's done so far in his career for 5 to 7 more years just to be considered? If he keeps this up for another 5 to 7 years he's an absolute lock. 11 years of averaging 90 catches, 1300 yards, and 9 TDs and he's "considered"? He's considered now, he'll be a lock if he keeps it up.IMO, Owens on field production and skills are worthy of entry. I also think Urlacher should be bumped up to "on the bubble."

 

[wannabee]

What are your thoughts on these predictions, as well as where do you rank those not listed in this article?

Chad Johnson, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

Decision: Needs more work.

He has 466 catches in his first six seasons, and has averaged over 90 each of the past four seasons. He would need to do that for another five to seven seasons to be considered.

Terrell Owens, WR, Dallas Cowboys

Decision: On the bubble.

Some might be surprised to see him here, but he's 17th all time in receptions with 801 and he's 16th in yards receiving with 11,715 yards. With a good season, he can move into the top-10 in both categories. Forget the attitude, he's had a heck of a career.

Brian Urlacher, LB, Chicago Bears

Decision: Needs more work.

He's got a good start, but he has a long way to go to be a Hall of Fame player. Then again, the lineage of his middle linebacker spot with the Bears is a good one.

CJ needs to do what he's done so far in his career for 5 to 7 more years just to be considered? If he keeps this up for another 5 to 7 years he's an absolute lock. 11 years of averaging 90 catches, 1300 yards, and 9 TDs and he's "considered"? He's considered now, he'll be a lock if he keeps it up.IMO, Owens on field production and skills are worthy of entry. I also think Urlacher should be bumped up to "on the bubble."

I probably agree with you. I do think that CJ needs to produce for 3-4 more seasons. If Housh keeps outscoring him, that might hurt a little TO will be interesting to see how it plays out. If he can stay out of trouble (huge if), it will be tough to keep him out of the hall.

Guys, remember that these are not my rankings but those of Prisco, CBS.

 

[TheLastDispatch]

I'm not sure any of the WRs on your list not named Moss, Harrison and Owens have much of a chance to get in. And Moss and Owens need to play at a high level for another 3+ years. These three guys have consistently been top 3 since the late 90s and assuming Moss get's back on track with the Raiders, they should stay up there for a couple more.

 

[The Kansas Comet]

Can't see McCardell or Rod Smith making it. Nice careers numbers and good longevity, but neither one was truly exceptional. Two for the Hall of Very Good, perhaps.

 

[SSOG]

Can't see McCardell or Rod Smith making it. Nice careers numbers and good longevity, but neither one was truly exceptional. Two for the Hall of Very Good, perhaps.

I can see Rod Smith making it, but I personally don't believe he should.Tom Nalen should be a lock by now, though, and he doesn't even get a mention? He's already blocked for 6 (soon to be 7) DIFFERENT 1,000 yard rushers (including a 2,000 yard rusher, and almost a pair of 1,000 yard rushers in the same season). He blocked for two Superbowl Champions (making the pro bowl in both years), and he's been considered one of the top-2 centers in the league for most of the past decade.

 

[lions327]

Speaking of blocking, Lorenzo Neal should make it. He is a devastating blocker, and I think the best fullback ever.

Vinatieri should be a lock. The best kicker ever and among the best clutch players in any sport.

 

[The Man With No Name]

John Lynch on the bubble? He's no way as far as I'm concerned. Him being in the Baseball Hall OF Fame is bad enough.

 

[David Yudkin]

Vinatieri should be a lock. The best kicker ever and among the best clutch players in any sport.

Problem is the HOF voters have inducted one pure kicker (Stenerud) and two blended kickers (Groza, Blanda), so who knows when they'll induct another.

 

[lions327]

Vinatieri should be a lock. The best kicker ever and among the best clutch players in any sport.

Problem is the HOF voters have inducted one pure kicker (Stenerud) and two blended kickers (Groza, Blanda), so who knows when they'll induct another.

Not to mention Ray Guy.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Not a bad list overall, but I can't see Bruce as a lead pipe lock for the Hall. Holt has a better shot.

 

[Tau837]

Can't see McCardell or Rod Smith making it. Nice careers numbers and good longevity, but neither one was truly exceptional. Two for the Hall of Very Good, perhaps.

I can see Rod Smith making it, but I personally don't believe he should.Tom Nalen should be a lock by now, though, and he doesn't even get a mention? He's already blocked for 6 (soon to be 7) DIFFERENT 1,000 yard rushers (including a 2,000 yard rusher, and almost a pair of 1,000 yard rushers in the same season). He blocked for two Superbowl Champions (making the pro bowl in both years), and he's been considered one of the top-2 centers in the league for most of the past decade.

I wouldn't say Nalen is a lock at all. He has made 5 Pro Bowls in 12 seasons. Nalen was only an AP All Pro once. Dermontti Dawson has been eligible for a few years, and hasn't even been a finalist, and I think most would say he was better than Nalen. I think he will be hurt by the perception that the rushing success was due to varying degrees to the entire line's effectiveness, the offensive system (e.g., the blocking schemes), Alex Gibbs, Mike Shanahan, etc. He has been very good throughout his career, but I don't think he will make it.And IMO Rod Smith has no chance.

 

[Tau837]

Speaking of blocking, Lorenzo Neal should make it. He is a devastating blocker, and I think the best fullback ever. Vinatieri should be a lock. The best kicker ever and among the best clutch players in any sport.

IMO Neal has no chance. Here are the FBs in the HOF:Jim Brown - 1957-1965 - arguably best RB of all timeLarry Csonka - 1968-1979 - Dolphins legend; Super Bowl MVP; almost 9000 combined net yards and 68 TDsJohn Henry Johnson - 1954-1966 - ranked #4 on career rushing list when he retiredMarion Motley - 1946-1953, 1955 - AAFC all time leading rusher; led NFL in rushing in 1950; on NFL 75th anniversary teamJoe Perry - 1948-1963 - 12532 combined net yards, more than 60 TDsJim Taylor - 1958-1967 - Packers legend; 10,532 combined net yards; NFL POY in 1962All of these FBs were offensive forces on their teams, not just blockers. You may also notice none have been elected who played after 1979, and Csonka was the only one who played after 1967. This is because of the changes to NFL offenses over the years that have moved towards using the FB as a blocker and only occasional receiver, not a primary ball carrier. Neal would be the first fullback to be elected solely for blocking ability. It won't happen.Vinatieri is not the best kicker ever, and his clutch ability is overrated. He is not a HOF player. IMO Morten Andersen has a chance to make it (and should IMO). Old post on this:

I've had the Vinatieri conversation before. In general, the argument for him boils down to him having made a few clutch kicks in the postseason. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen have more than twice as many points.I did a brief search, and from what I could find, I'd vote for Morten Andersen, if any place kicker:- 2nd all time in points (2358) & FGs (520) to Gary Anderson- 1st all time in games played (354)- Most consecutive games scoring (332), with Elam a distant second with 188 through 2004- All time leader in made 50+ yard FGs in career (40), season (8), and game (3)- Entering 2004, had 31 game deciding kicks... can't find where that ranks- Kicked the 3rd longest FG in history (60 yards)- Most Pro Bowls ever for a kicker (7)- Most Pro Bowl points, FGs, FGAs, XPsHow much of that is made up by a few clutch postseason kicks?

 

[SSOG]

Speaking of blocking, Lorenzo Neal should make it. He is a devastating blocker, and I think the best fullback ever. Vinatieri should be a lock. The best kicker ever and among the best clutch players in any sport.

I agree that Neal SHOULD make it, but I don't think he will. No way should Vinatieri make it, though. His entire resume is based on three kicks (two in 2001, and one in 2003 against Carolina), nevermind the fact that his two missed kicks against Philly were the only reason that game was close in the first place. Besides, how much of that is because Vinatieri is clutch, and how much is just because he was put in that situation? Who knows how many other kickers would have made those three kicks if they were only given the opportunity?

John Lynch on the bubble? He's no way as far as I'm concerned. Him being in the Baseball Hall OF Fame is bad enough.

Agreed.

Can't see McCardell or Rod Smith making it. Nice careers numbers and good longevity, but neither one was truly exceptional. Two for the Hall of Very Good, perhaps.

I can see Rod Smith making it, but I personally don't believe he should.Tom Nalen should be a lock by now, though, and he doesn't even get a mention? He's already blocked for 6 (soon to be 7) DIFFERENT 1,000 yard rushers (including a 2,000 yard rusher, and almost a pair of 1,000 yard rushers in the same season). He blocked for two Superbowl Champions (making the pro bowl in both years), and he's been considered one of the top-2 centers in the league for most of the past decade.

I wouldn't say Nalen is a lock at all. He has made 5 Pro Bowls in 12 seasons. Nalen was only an AP All Pro once. Dermontti Dawson has been eligible for a few years, and hasn't even been a finalist, and I think most would say he was better than Nalen. I think he will be hurt by the perception that the rushing success was due to varying degrees to the entire line's effectiveness, the offensive system (e.g., the blocking schemes), Alex Gibbs, Mike Shanahan, etc. He has been very good throughout his career, but I don't think he will make it.And IMO Rod Smith has no chance.

I think it's funny how nobody gets credit for Denver's rushing success. I mean, TD rushes for 2,000 yards, and it's not because of Terrell Davis, and it's not because of Tom Nalen, and it's not because of Alex Gibbs (since he hasn't been the OL coach in Denver since 2000), and it's not the scheme (since other teams run the same scheme with far less success). I mean, there should be a TON of credit to go around, but it seems like nobody is getting any of it.As far as I'm concerned, Denver's rushing success is a product of the offensive line, plain and simple. Denver and Kansas City have routinely spent a larger portion of their salary cap on the Offensive Line than any other team in the league, and they've regularly been the best rushing teams in football. That's no coincidence... and in the end, Tom Nalen has been the key cog on all of those offensive lines. Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman, Dan Neil, Ben Hamilton, Matt Lepsis, Eric Pears, George Foster, Ebenezer Ekuban... all of these guys and more have been around for part of Denver's success, but the only constant has been Nalen. He probably ISN'T a lock, but he should be.

Vinatieri is not the best kicker ever, and his clutch ability is overrated. He is not a HOF player. IMO Morten Andersen has a chance to make it (and should IMO). Old post on this:

I've had the Vinatieri conversation before. In general, the argument for him boils down to him having made a few clutch kicks in the postseason. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen have more than twice as many points.I did a brief search, and from what I could find, I'd vote for Morten Andersen, if any place kicker:- 2nd all time in points (2358) & FGs (520) to Gary Anderson- 1st all time in games played (354)- Most consecutive games scoring (332), with Elam a distant second with 188 through 2004- All time leader in made 50+ yard FGs in career (40), season (8), and game (3)- Entering 2004, had 31 game deciding kicks... can't find where that ranks- Kicked the 3rd longest FG in history (60 yards)- Most Pro Bowls ever for a kicker (7)- Most Pro Bowl points, FGs, FGAs, XPsHow much of that is made up by a few clutch postseason kicks?

The biggest thing going against Morten Anderson is going to be Jason Elam. Elam is further along in everyone one of those categories than Morten Anderson was at this point in his career, and when he retires, Elam's going to have 5 years to narrow the gap. Morton Anderson's career high is 122 points in a season (in 24 seasons)- Elam has beaten that 5 times in 13 years. Elam's never had fewer than 103 points in a season, while Anderson has failed to hit 100 points 10 times in his career. At Elam's pace, he'll pass Anderson in scoring midway through his 21st season, and Anderson won't be Hall Eligible until after Elam's 20th season.To further the comparison, Morton Anderson has 40 FGs of 50+ yards... on 84 attempts (47.7%). Elam has 36 on 59 (61.0%), so not only will he own the record after 4 more kicks (and so far there's never been a single year where he hasn't kicked a 50+ yarder), he also will have done it on far fewer attempts. Elam also owns the record (well, shares it) for longest kick (Morton's only 4th now, since Matt Bryant made a 62 yarder last year).If Anderson would be HoF eligible immediately, he might stand a chance, but since he has to wait 5 years, there's no way he makes it unless Elam suffers a major career-ending injury or retires unexpectedly. His only argument for induction are his phenominal career numbers, and by the time he's eligible, there might be a still-active kicker who has already surpassed them.Elam's also got a better FG%, and owns the NFL record for XP% and most consecutive XPs, as well as the record for most consecutive 100-point seasons.

 

[Tau837]

Tom Nalen should be a lock by now, though, and he doesn't even get a mention? He's already blocked for 6 (soon to be 7) DIFFERENT 1,000 yard rushers (including a 2,000 yard rusher, and almost a pair of 1,000 yard rushers in the same season). He blocked for two Superbowl Champions (making the pro bowl in both years), and he's been considered one of the top-2 centers in the league for most of the past decade.

I wouldn't say Nalen is a lock at all. He has made 5 Pro Bowls in 12 seasons. Nalen was only an AP All Pro once. Dermontti Dawson has been eligible for a few years, and hasn't even been a finalist, and I think most would say he was better than Nalen. I think he will be hurt by the perception that the rushing success was due to varying degrees to the entire line's effectiveness, the offensive system (e.g., the blocking schemes), Alex Gibbs, Mike Shanahan, etc. He has been very good throughout his career, but I don't think he will make it.

I think it's funny how nobody gets credit for Denver's rushing success. I mean, TD rushes for 2,000 yards, and it's not because of Terrell Davis, and it's not because of Tom Nalen, and it's not because of Alex Gibbs (since he hasn't been the OL coach in Denver since 2000), and it's not the scheme (since other teams run the same scheme with far less success). I mean, there should be a TON of credit to go around, but it seems like nobody is getting any of it.As far as I'm concerned, Denver's rushing success is a product of the offensive line, plain and simple. Denver and Kansas City have routinely spent a larger portion of their salary cap on the Offensive Line than any other team in the league, and they've regularly been the best rushing teams in football. That's no coincidence... and in the end, Tom Nalen has been the key cog on all of those offensive lines. Mark Schlereth, Gary Zimmerman, Dan Neil, Ben Hamilton, Matt Lepsis, Eric Pears, George Foster, Ebenezer Ekuban... all of these guys and more have been around for part of Denver's success, but the only constant has been Nalen. He probably ISN'T a lock, but he should be.

Well, it's not because of just one of them. I think that is exactly the thing. It is a case (or at least perceived to be the case) that a number of things came together just right to contribute to their outstanding rushing success. And that includes Shanahan, Gibbs, the offensive line as a collective unit, and the running backs as a collective unit.

Vinatieri is not the best kicker ever, and his clutch ability is overrated. He is not a HOF player. IMO Morten Andersen has a chance to make it (and should IMO). Old post on this:

I've had the Vinatieri conversation before. In general, the argument for him boils down to him having made a few clutch kicks in the postseason. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen have more than twice as many points.I did a brief search, and from what I could find, I'd vote for Morten Andersen, if any place kicker:- 2nd all time in points (2358) & FGs (520) to Gary Anderson- 1st all time in games played (354)- Most consecutive games scoring (332), with Elam a distant second with 188 through 2004- All time leader in made 50+ yard FGs in career (40), season (8), and game (3)- Entering 2004, had 31 game deciding kicks... can't find where that ranks- Kicked the 3rd longest FG in history (60 yards)- Most Pro Bowls ever for a kicker (7)- Most Pro Bowl points, FGs, FGAs, XPsHow much of that is made up by a few clutch postseason kicks?

The biggest thing going against Morten Anderson is going to be Jason Elam. Elam is further along in everyone one of those categories than Morten Anderson was at this point in his career, and when he retires, Elam's going to have 5 years to narrow the gap. Morton Anderson's career high is 122 points in a season (in 24 seasons)- Elam has beaten that 5 times in 13 years. Elam's never had fewer than 103 points in a season, while Anderson has failed to hit 100 points 10 times in his career. At Elam's pace, he'll pass Anderson in scoring midway through his 21st season, and Anderson won't be Hall Eligible until after Elam's 20th season.To further the comparison, Morton Anderson has 40 FGs of 50+ yards... on 84 attempts (47.7%). Elam has 36 on 59 (61.0%), so not only will he own the record after 4 more kicks (and so far there's never been a single year where he hasn't kicked a 50+ yarder), he also will have done it on far fewer attempts. Elam also owns the record (well, shares it) for longest kick (Morton's only 4th now, since Matt Bryant made a 62 yarder last year).If Anderson would be HoF eligible immediately, he might stand a chance, but since he has to wait 5 years, there's no way he makes it unless Elam suffers a major career-ending injury or retires unexpectedly. His only argument for induction are his phenominal career numbers, and by the time he's eligible, there might be a still-active kicker who has already surpassed them.Elam's also got a better FG%, and owns the NFL record for XP% and most consecutive XPs, as well as the record for most consecutive 100-point seasons.

Good info, and you may very well be right. You didn't even mention that Andersen played his home games in a dome for almost all of his career. I suppose Elam might have benefited from the altitude (?), but I would think the outdoor conditions in November and particularly December for his home games were much harder than they were for Andersen. If Elam does continue his pace, I'd be inclined to think both of them deserve it.

 

[gman8343]

What are your thoughts on these predictions, as well as where do you rank those not listed in this article?

Chad Johnson, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

Decision: Needs more work.

He has 466 catches in his first six seasons, and has averaged over 90 each of the past four seasons. He would need to do that for another five to seven seasons to be considered.

Terrell Owens, WR, Dallas Cowboys

Decision: On the bubble.

Some might be surprised to see him here, but he's 17th all time in receptions with 801 and he's 16th in yards receiving with 11,715 yards. With a good season, he can move into the top-10 in both categories. Forget the attitude, he's had a heck of a career.

Brian Urlacher, LB, Chicago Bears

Decision: Needs more work.

He's got a good start, but he has a long way to go to be a Hall of Fame player. Then again, the lineage of his middle linebacker spot with the Bears is a good one.

CJ needs to do what he's done so far in his career for 5 to 7 more years just to be considered? If he keeps this up for another 5 to 7 years he's an absolute lock. 11 years of averaging 90 catches, 1300 yards, and 9 TDs and he's "considered"? He's considered now, he'll be a lock if he keeps it up.IMO, Owens on field production and skills are worthy of entry. I also think Urlacher should be bumped up to "on the bubble."

I probably agree with you. I do think that CJ needs to produce for 3-4 more seasons. If Housh keeps outscoring him, that might hurt a little TO will be interesting to see how it plays out. If he can stay out of trouble (huge if), it will be tough to keep him out of the hall.

Guys, remember that these are not my rankings but those of Prisco, CBS.

IIRC TO is 4th all time in recieving TDs with 100+. That's incredible. The guy easily should get in.

 

[Dirty Weasel]

I'm not sure any of the WRs on your list not named Moss, Harrison and Owens have much of a chance to get in. And Moss and Owens need to play at a high level for another 3+ years. These three guys have consistently been top 3 since the late 90s and assuming Moss get's back on track with the Raiders, they should stay up there for a couple more.

Holt, CJ and Steve Smith are on track but are not a lock.

Horn, McCardell and Rod Smith will probably be on the outside looking in.

The only player I have on the bubble is Isaac Bruce who's had a great career and some top seasons, but I could still see him getting the "Art Monk Snub"

As for RB's, The only two I'd consider right now are Alexander and Tomlinson.

Tiki and Martin will probalby get in as fan favorites too. Edge will have to take AZ to the playoffs to be considered.

Total BS! Curtis Martin, though not a sexy pick, won't get in because he is a fan favorite. He will get in because he was a proven workhorse for 11 straight years. He was perhaps the most durable RB of all time. He missed only 4 games in a span of 168 games, before his knees finally gave out on him. He never complained about the pain, and holds the record for most carries in a 10-year span, with 3298. And he did that while averaging 46 catches. Yes, that's right... he averaged 375 touches a season for 10 straight years!As for Tiki, he only blossomed into a true workhorse after being in the league for 5 years. Had NYG let him loose earlier in his career, he would be a lock as well. He only averaged 125 carries a year for his first 5 years, but then came on like gangbusters. I think Tiki will miss out, because he only has a 5 year sample, but I blame the Giants for that. He was stuck behind Ron Dayne.

 

[Tau837]

I'm not sure any of the WRs on your list not named Moss, Harrison and Owens have much of a chance to get in. And Moss and Owens need to play at a high level for another 3+ years. These three guys have consistently been top 3 since the late 90s and assuming Moss get's back on track with the Raiders, they should stay up there for a couple more.

Holt, CJ and Steve Smith are on track but are not a lock.

Horn, McCardell and Rod Smith will probably be on the outside looking in.

The only player I have on the bubble is Isaac Bruce who's had a great career and some top seasons, but I could still see him getting the "Art Monk Snub"

As for RB's, The only two I'd consider right now are Alexander and Tomlinson.

Tiki and Martin will probalby get in as fan favorites too. Edge will have to take AZ to the playoffs to be considered.

Total BS! Curtis Martin, though not a sexy pick, won't get in because he is a fan favorite. He will get in because he was a proven workhorse for 11 straight years. He was perhaps the most durable RB of all time. He missed only 4 games in a span of 168 games, before his knees finally gave out on him. He never complained about the pain, and holds the record for most carries in a 10-year span, with 3298. And he did that while averaging 46 catches. Yes, that's right... he averaged 375 touches a season for 10 straight years!As for Tiki, he only blossomed into a true workhorse after being in the league for 5 years. Had NYG let him loose earlier in his career, he would be a lock as well. He only averaged 125 carries a year for his first 5 years, but then came on like gangbusters. I think Tiki will miss out, because he only has a 5 year sample, but I blame the Giants for that. He was stuck behind Ron Dayne.

 

[Jason Wood]

I think this is a very good list, don't have a major quibble with any of your rankings. I think, unfortunately, more of these guys won't get in than you've suggested because of the nature of induction; but I would think the one that miss out will be deserving nonetheless.

 

[Block]

Speaking of blocking, Lorenzo Neal should make it. He is a devastating blocker, and I think the best fullback ever. Vinatieri should be a lock. The best kicker ever and among the best clutch players in any sport.

IMO Neal has no chance. Here are the FBs in the HOF:Jim Brown - 1957-1965 - arguably best RB of all timeLarry Csonka - 1968-1979 - Dolphins legend; Super Bowl MVP; almost 9000 combined net yards and 68 TDsJohn Henry Johnson - 1954-1966 - ranked #4 on career rushing list when he retiredMarion Motley - 1946-1953, 1955 - AAFC all time leading rusher; led NFL in rushing in 1950; on NFL 75th anniversary teamJoe Perry - 1948-1963 - 12532 combined net yards, more than 60 TDsJim Taylor - 1958-1967 - Packers legend; 10,532 combined net yards; NFL POY in 1962All of these FBs were offensive forces on their teams, not just blockers. You may also notice none have been elected who played after 1979, and Csonka was the only one who played after 1967. This is because of the changes to NFL offenses over the years that have moved towards using the FB as a blocker and only occasional receiver, not a primary ball carrier. Neal would be the first fullback to be elected solely for blocking ability. It won't happen.Vinatieri is not the best kicker ever, and his clutch ability is overrated. He is not a HOF player. IMO Morten Andersen has a chance to make it (and should IMO). Old post on this:

I've had the Vinatieri conversation before. In general, the argument for him boils down to him having made a few clutch kicks in the postseason. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen have more than twice as many points.I did a brief search, and from what I could find, I'd vote for Morten Andersen, if any place kicker:- 2nd all time in points (2358) & FGs (520) to Gary Anderson- 1st all time in games played (354)- Most consecutive games scoring (332), with Elam a distant second with 188 through 2004- All time leader in made 50+ yard FGs in career (40), season (8), and game (3)- Entering 2004, had 31 game deciding kicks... can't find where that ranks- Kicked the 3rd longest FG in history (60 yards)- Most Pro Bowls ever for a kicker (7)- Most Pro Bowl points, FGs, FGAs, XPsHow much of that is made up by a few clutch postseason kicks?

John Riggins was considered a fullback.

 

[Tau837]

Speaking of blocking, Lorenzo Neal should make it. He is a devastating blocker, and I think the best fullback ever. Vinatieri should be a lock. The best kicker ever and among the best clutch players in any sport.

IMO Neal has no chance. Here are the FBs in the HOF:Jim Brown - 1957-1965 - arguably best RB of all timeLarry Csonka - 1968-1979 - Dolphins legend; Super Bowl MVP; almost 9000 combined net yards and 68 TDsJohn Henry Johnson - 1954-1966 - ranked #4 on career rushing list when he retiredMarion Motley - 1946-1953, 1955 - AAFC all time leading rusher; led NFL in rushing in 1950; on NFL 75th anniversary teamJoe Perry - 1948-1963 - 12532 combined net yards, more than 60 TDsJim Taylor - 1958-1967 - Packers legend; 10,532 combined net yards; NFL POY in 1962All of these FBs were offensive forces on their teams, not just blockers. You may also notice none have been elected who played after 1979, and Csonka was the only one who played after 1967. This is because of the changes to NFL offenses over the years that have moved towards using the FB as a blocker and only occasional receiver, not a primary ball carrier. Neal would be the first fullback to be elected solely for blocking ability. It won't happen.Vinatieri is not the best kicker ever, and his clutch ability is overrated. He is not a HOF player. IMO Morten Andersen has a chance to make it (and should IMO). Old post on this:

I've had the Vinatieri conversation before. In general, the argument for him boils down to him having made a few clutch kicks in the postseason. Meanwhile, guys like Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen have more than twice as many points.I did a brief search, and from what I could find, I'd vote for Morten Andersen, if any place kicker:- 2nd all time in points (2358) & FGs (520) to Gary Anderson- 1st all time in games played (354)- Most consecutive games scoring (332), with Elam a distant second with 188 through 2004- All time leader in made 50+ yard FGs in career (40), season (8), and game (3)- Entering 2004, had 31 game deciding kicks... can't find where that ranks- Kicked the 3rd longest FG in history (60 yards)- Most Pro Bowls ever for a kicker (7)- Most Pro Bowl points, FGs, FGAs, XPsHow much of that is made up by a few clutch postseason kicks?

John Riggins was considered a fullback.

He isn't listed that way on the HOF web site. Besides, that really doesn't change my point. Riggins didn't get in for blocking.

 

[sib]

Terrell Owens, WR, Dallas Cowboys

Decision: On the bubble.

Some might be surprised to see him here, but he's 17th all time in receptions with 801 and he's 16th in yards receiving with 11,715 yards. With a good season, he can move into the top-10 in both categories. Forget the attitude, he's had a heck of a career.

With those numbers + over 100 TDs (4th all-time on the WR list), TO should make it.

 

[Balco]

Offensive Lineman just don't seem to get the respect they deserve.

As for some of the other picks. Rodney Harrison? Not a chance. Guy was hurt a ton, prior to playing for the Pats. DIrtiest player hall of fame? No question. pro Football Hall of Fame? No.

Richard Seymour does not need more work. He is the centerpiece of that defense, the single most important player on that team. A dominant end and tackle who teams had to account for on every down.

 

[Borat]

Offensive Lineman just don't seem to get the respect they deserve.As for some of the other picks. Rodney Harrison? Not a chance. Guy was hurt a ton, prior to playing for the Pats. DIrtiest player hall of fame? No question. pro Football Hall of Fame? No.Richard Seymour does not need more work. He is the centerpiece of that defense, the single most important player on that team. A dominant end and tackle who teams had to account for on every down.

Harrison is one of the best safeties of his era. I believe he is still the only safety in NFL history to have 25+ sacks and 25+ interceptions over the course of his career. Not to mention the leadership qualities he brings to a team. I think he's borderline, but I would not say he has "no chance."And Seymour absolutely needs more work. He's on the right track, but he's only been in the league for 6 seasons. And this is coming from a Patriots fan. Also, it's completely ridiculous to say that he's "the single most important player on that team." I think you may have forgotten about #12.

 

[LHUCKS]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

 

[Balco]

Offensive Lineman just don't seem to get the respect they deserve.As for some of the other picks. Rodney Harrison? Not a chance. Guy was hurt a ton, prior to playing for the Pats. DIrtiest player hall of fame? No question. pro Football Hall of Fame? No.Richard Seymour does not need more work. He is the centerpiece of that defense, the single most important player on that team. A dominant end and tackle who teams had to account for on every down.

Harrison is one of the best safeties of his era. I believe he is still the only safety in NFL history to have 25+ sacks and 25+ interceptions over the course of his career. Not to mention the leadership qualities he brings to a team. I think he's borderline, but I would not say he has "no chance."And Seymour absolutely needs more work. He's on the right track, but he's only been in the league for 6 seasons. And this is coming from a Patriots fan. Also, it's completely ridiculous to say that he's "the single most important player on that team." I think you may have forgotten about #12.

Should have clarified with Seymour, meant single best player on the Defense. obviously Brady makes the team tick.What era are we defining as far as Harrison? I definitely believe Brian Dawkins is a superior safety, and depending on how far we are going back, I would also place Leroy Butler, Carnell Lake, Ronnie Lott, Steve Atwater, John Lynch, and Darren Sharper.

 

[MarshallRob]

What are your thoughts on these predictions, as well as where do you rank those not listed in this article?

Chad Johnson, WR, Cincinnati Bengals

Decision: Needs more work.

He has 466 catches in his first six seasons, and has averaged over 90 each of the past four seasons. He would need to do that for another five to seven seasons to be considered.

Terrell Owens, WR, Dallas Cowboys

Decision: On the bubble.

Some might be surprised to see him here, but he's 17th all time in receptions with 801 and he's 16th in yards receiving with 11,715 yards. With a good season, he can move into the top-10 in both categories. Forget the attitude, he's had a heck of a career.

Brian Urlacher, LB, Chicago Bears

Decision: Needs more work.

He's got a good start, but he has a long way to go to be a Hall of Fame player. Then again, the lineage of his middle linebacker spot with the Bears is a good one.

CJ needs to do what he's done so far in his career for 5 to 7 more years just to be considered? If he keeps this up for another 5 to 7 years he's an absolute lock. 11 years of averaging 90 catches, 1300 yards, and 9 TDs and he's "considered"? He's considered now, he'll be a lock if he keeps it up.IMO, Owens on field production and skills are worthy of entry. I also think Urlacher should be bumped up to "on the bubble."

I probably agree with you. I do think that CJ needs to produce for 3-4 more seasons. If Housh keeps outscoring him, that might hurt a little TO will be interesting to see how it plays out. If he can stay out of trouble (huge if), it will be tough to keep him out of the hall.

Guys, remember that these are not my rankings but those of Prisco, CBS.

IIRC TO is 4th all time in recieving TDs with 100+. That's incredible. The guy easily should get in.

I don't think it's going to be that easy for TO. At least two current voters are on record as saying they won't vote for him. Here's Dr. Z:

And over to the Hall of Fame we go ... seems that we generally manage to wind up there every week, at least in the offseason. Kipps of North Bay, Ontario, says that if I'm anti-Randy Moss, then surely I have to have kinder feelings toward Terrell Owens, whose on-field commitment cannot be questioned, despite "Peter King's crying about his alligator arms." Waddya mean, crying? Put me down as agreeing with Peter. In San Francisco T.O. would give up on patterns and passes that called for him to extend himself in ways he didn't care for. He was notorious for that. And then he'd blame Jeff Garcia, of course. He wasn't as bad in Philly and Dallas, but you could see it every now and then. But here's the thing I don't like about him. He's a bully. He's got a mean streak. You'll notice that whenever he went after someone, it was when the person was in a weakened situation.

He took heavy shots at Garcia when the QB was struggling, even questioning his sexuality. He kept a careful eye on Donovan McNabb, and waited until he showed weakness, following the Super Bowl loss. Then he went after him. And now that Bill Parcells has retired, tired and discouraged, Terrell has begun to open up with his sniper fire. Hall of Fame? Not if I'm still a selector.

So Dr. Z and Peter King won't vote for TO (though Dr. Z might not be selector by the time TO's eligible). I'm sure other voters must share the above views. It's not all about the numbers.

 

[Tau837]

As for some of the other picks. Rodney Harrison? Not a chance. Guy was hurt a ton, prior to playing for the Pats. DIrtiest player hall of fame? No question. pro Football Hall of Fame? No.

Harrison is one of the best safeties of his era. I believe he is still the only safety in NFL history to have 25+ sacks and 25+ interceptions over the course of his career. Not to mention the leadership qualities he brings to a team. I think he's borderline, but I would not say he has "no chance."

What era are we defining as far as Harrison? I definitely believe Brian Dawkins is a superior safety, and depending on how far we are going back, I would also place Leroy Butler, Carnell Lake, Ronnie Lott, Steve Atwater, John Lynch, and Darren Sharper.

You omitted Darren Woodson from your list, if you are going all the way back to Atwater, Lake, and Lott. And I assume you omitted Rod Woodson because you consider him a cornerback, though he played both positions.Comparing the names you threw out plus a few other contemporaries:

Steve Atwater - retired after 1999 season:

167 games

1180 tackles

5 sacks

24 interceptions

94 passes defensed

12 forced fumbles

8 fumble recoveries

1 TDs

2 All Pro selections

8 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 14 postseason games, with a record of 10-4, including 2-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Leroy Butler - retired after 2001 season:

181 games

890 tackles

20.5 sacks

38 interceptions

130 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

10 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

4 All Pro selections

4 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 10-6, including 1-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Brian Dawkins - active:

157 games

801 tackles

18 sacks

32 interceptions

146 passes defensed

26 forced fumbles

15 fumble recoveries

3 TDs (includes 1 receiving TD)

3 All Pro selections

6 Pro Bowls

His teams played 15 postseason games to date, with a record of 8-7, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Almost worthy of HOF consideration, but a bit more work to do

Rodney Harrison - active:

168 games

1075 tackles

28.5 sacks - most by a defensive back in NFL history

32 interceptions

107 passes defensed

14 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

4 TDs (including 2 kick return TDs)

2 All Pro selections

2 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 9-3, including 2-1 in Super Bowls (not counting New England's 2-1 2006 postseason, since Harrison didn't play)

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Carnell Lake - retired after 2001:

185 games

819 tackles

25 sacks

16 interceptions

101 passes defensed

15 forced fumbles

17 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

2 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 17 postseason games, with a record of 8-9, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Falls just short of deserving HOF consideration

Ronnie Lott - retired after 1994:

192 games

1000+ tackles - can't find exact number

8.5 sacks

63 interceptions

? passes defensed - can't find data

? forced fumbles - can't find data

17 fumble recoveries

5 TDs

7 All Pro selections (2 as CB)

10 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1980s All Decade team

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 20 postseason games, with a record of 14-6, including 4-0 in Super Bowls

My take: Obviously the best of this group and a no-brainer HOF selection who was inducted in 2000

John Lynch - active:

211 games

998 tackles

12 sacks

26 interceptions

90 passes defensed

16 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

0 TDs

3 All Pro selections

7 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 6-6, including 1-0 in Super Bowls

My take: One of the weakest of this group other than in terms of longevity; not HOF worthy

Darren Sharper - active:

151 games

728 tackles

7 sacks

49 interceptions

104 passes defensed

8 forced fumbles

5 fumble recoveries

7 TDs

1 All Pro selection

3 Pro Bowls

His teams played 10 postseason games, with a record of 4-6, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Weakest of this group; not HOF worthy

Darren Woodson - retired after 2003:

178 games

940 tackles

11 sacks

23 interceptions

83 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

11 fumble recoveries

2 TDs

3 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 11-5, including 3-0 in Super Bowls

My take: Falls just short of deserving HOF consideration

 

[Balco]

As for some of the other picks. Rodney Harrison? Not a chance. Guy was hurt a ton, prior to playing for the Pats. DIrtiest player hall of fame? No question. pro Football Hall of Fame? No.

Harrison is one of the best safeties of his era. I believe he is still the only safety in NFL history to have 25+ sacks and 25+ interceptions over the course of his career. Not to mention the leadership qualities he brings to a team. I think he's borderline, but I would not say he has "no chance."

What era are we defining as far as Harrison? I definitely believe Brian Dawkins is a superior safety, and depending on how far we are going back, I would also place Leroy Butler, Carnell Lake, Ronnie Lott, Steve Atwater, John Lynch, and Darren Sharper.

You omitted Darren Woodson from your list, if you are going all the way back to Atwater, Lake, and Lott. And I assume you omitted Rod Woodson because you consider him a cornerback, though he played both positions.Comparing the names you threw out plus a few other contemporaries:

Steve Atwater - retired after 1999 season:

167 games

1180 tackles

5 sacks

24 interceptions

94 passes defensed

12 forced fumbles

8 fumble recoveries

1 TDs

2 All Pro selections

8 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 14 postseason games, with a record of 10-4, including 2-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Leroy Butler - retired after 2001 season:

181 games

890 tackles

20.5 sacks

38 interceptions

130 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

10 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

4 All Pro selections

4 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 10-6, including 1-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Brian Dawkins - active:

157 games

801 tackles

18 sacks

32 interceptions

146 passes defensed

26 forced fumbles

15 fumble recoveries

3 TDs (includes 1 receiving TD)

3 All Pro selections

6 Pro Bowls

His teams played 15 postseason games to date, with a record of 8-7, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Almost worthy of HOF consideration, but a bit more work to do

Rodney Harrison - active:

168 games

1075 tackles

28.5 sacks - most by a defensive back in NFL history

32 interceptions

107 passes defensed

14 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

4 TDs (including 2 kick return TDs)

2 All Pro selections

2 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 9-3, including 2-1 in Super Bowls (not counting New England's 2-1 2006 postseason, since Harrison didn't play)

My take: Deserves HOF consideration

Carnell Lake - retired after 2001:

185 games

819 tackles

25 sacks

16 interceptions

101 passes defensed

15 forced fumbles

17 fumble recoveries

3 TDs

2 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 17 postseason games, with a record of 8-9, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Falls just short of deserving HOF consideration

Ronnie Lott - retired after 1994:

192 games

1000+ tackles - can't find exact number

8.5 sacks

63 interceptions

? passes defensed - can't find data

? forced fumbles - can't find data

17 fumble recoveries

5 TDs

7 All Pro selections (2 as CB)

10 Pro Bowls

Selected for 1980s All Decade team

Selected for 1990s All Decade team

His teams played 20 postseason games, with a record of 14-6, including 4-0 in Super Bowls

My take: Obviously the best of this group and a no-brainer HOF selection who was inducted in 2000

John Lynch - active:

211 games

998 tackles

12 sacks

26 interceptions

90 passes defensed

16 forced fumbles

9 fumble recoveries

0 TDs

3 All Pro selections

7 Pro Bowls

His teams played 12 postseason games to date, with a record of 6-6, including 1-0 in Super Bowls

My take: One of the weakest of this group other than in terms of longevity; not HOF worthy

Darren Sharper - active:

151 games

728 tackles

7 sacks

49 interceptions

104 passes defensed

8 forced fumbles

5 fumble recoveries

7 TDs

1 All Pro selection

3 Pro Bowls

His teams played 10 postseason games, with a record of 4-6, including 0-1 in Super Bowls

My take: Weakest of this group; not HOF worthy

Darren Woodson - retired after 2003:

178 games

940 tackles

11 sacks

23 interceptions

83 passes defensed

13 forced fumbles

11 fumble recoveries

2 TDs

3 All Pro selections

5 Pro Bowls

His teams played 16 postseason games, with a record of 11-5, including 3-0 in Super Bowls

My take: Falls just short of deserving HOF consideration

THanks for pulling up the stats. Forgot Woodson, actually think he deserves to be in the Hall of fame. One of the great success stories of players converting to other positions. He played LB at Arizona State. One stat from a safety that I don't really care for is a sack. Don't get me wrong, important to a team, but when a safety gets a sack it usually means there wasn't a blocker to block him.

I am surprised you think Dawkins has a way to go, he has been an unbelievable two way safety for the last 10 years.

 

[SSOG]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

One stat from a safety that I don't really care for is a sack. Don't get me wrong, important to a team, but when a safety gets a sack it usually means there wasn't a blocker to block him.

I agree about sacks. The safeties with the most sacks are always the safeties that play on the team that blitzes the most.

 

[Tau837]

One stat from a safety that I don't really care for is a sack. Don't get me wrong, important to a team, but when a safety gets a sack it usually means there wasn't a blocker to block him.

I agree about sacks. The safeties with the most sacks are always the safeties that play on the team that blitzes the most.

Perhaps it is the ability of those safeties that enables their teams to blitz them, thereby providing more options to the defensive coordinator.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Speaking of blocking, Lorenzo Neal should make it. He is a devastating blocker, and I think the best fullback ever.

Vinatieri should be a lock. The best kicker ever and among the best clutch players in any sport.

WOW. What have you been smoking?You do realize we are talking about the Hall of Fame here, right?

 

[LHUCKS]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Offensive Lineman just don't seem to get the respect they deserve.As for some of the other picks. Rodney Harrison? Not a chance. Guy was hurt a ton, prior to playing for the Pats. DIrtiest player hall of fame? No question. pro Football Hall of Fame? No.Richard Seymour does not need more work. He is the centerpiece of that defense, the single most important player on that team. A dominant end and tackle who teams had to account for on every down.

Harrison is one of the best safeties of his era. I believe he is still the only safety in NFL history to have 25+ sacks and 25+ interceptions over the course of his career. Not to mention the leadership qualities he brings to a team. I think he's borderline, but I would not say he has "no chance."And Seymour absolutely needs more work. He's on the right track, but he's only been in the league for 6 seasons. And this is coming from a Patriots fan. Also, it's completely ridiculous to say that he's "the single most important player on that team." I think you may have forgotten about #12.

Besides Tom Brady, Rodney Harrison has proven to be the most indispensible player on the Patriots over the last 3 years. A while after the Pats lost to the Colts last year, I broke out the SB DVD's from 2003 and 2004. Rodney Harrison was part of every big play. He means a TON to the Pats defense.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Offensive Lineman just don't seem to get the respect they deserve.As for some of the other picks. Rodney Harrison? Not a chance. Guy was hurt a ton, prior to playing for the Pats. DIrtiest player hall of fame? No question. pro Football Hall of Fame? No.Richard Seymour does not need more work. He is the centerpiece of that defense, the single most important player on that team. A dominant end and tackle who teams had to account for on every down.

Harrison is one of the best safeties of his era. I believe he is still the only safety in NFL history to have 25+ sacks and 25+ interceptions over the course of his career. Not to mention the leadership qualities he brings to a team. I think he's borderline, but I would not say he has "no chance."And Seymour absolutely needs more work. He's on the right track, but he's only been in the league for 6 seasons. And this is coming from a Patriots fan. Also, it's completely ridiculous to say that he's "the single most important player on that team." I think you may have forgotten about #12.

Should have clarified with Seymour, meant single best player on the Defense. obviously Brady makes the team tick.What era are we defining as far as Harrison? I definitely believe Brian Dawkins is a superior safety, and depending on how far we are going back, I would also place Leroy Butler, Carnell Lake, Ronnie Lott, Steve Atwater, John Lynch, and Darren Sharper.

Carnell Lake, Steve Atwater, John Lynch and Darren Sharper were not better than Harrison.

 

[jasvic]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

Will be absolutely shocked if Warner ever gets in. He had 3 good years, that's it. He didn't do it anywhere near long enough for the hall, IMO.

 

[Tau837]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

You are so wrong.

 

[Phlash]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

Will be absolutely shocked if Warner ever gets in. He had 3 good years, that's it. He didn't do it anywhere near long enough for the hall, IMO.

They weren't 3 good years, they were 3 all-time historically best years. Good doesn't do it justice.I also don't think he'll get in but he was unstoppable those 3 years. Unstoppable is really the only word that works here. He put up better stats against real NFL competition than most of us could do in All-Madden mode in Madden 07.

 

[SSOG]

Offensive Lineman just don't seem to get the respect they deserve.

As for some of the other picks. Rodney Harrison? Not a chance. Guy was hurt a ton, prior to playing for the Pats. DIrtiest player hall of fame? No question. pro Football Hall of Fame? No.

Richard Seymour does not need more work. He is the centerpiece of that defense, the single most important player on that team. A dominant end and tackle who teams had to account for on every down.

Harrison is one of the best safeties of his era. I believe he is still the only safety in NFL history to have 25+ sacks and 25+ interceptions over the course of his career. Not to mention the leadership qualities he brings to a team. I think he's borderline, but I would not say he has "no chance."And Seymour absolutely needs more work. He's on the right track, but he's only been in the league for 6 seasons. And this is coming from a Patriots fan. Also, it's completely ridiculous to say that he's "the single most important player on that team." I think you may have forgotten about #12.

Should have clarified with Seymour, meant single best player on the Defense. obviously Brady makes the team tick.What era are we defining as far as Harrison? I definitely believe Brian Dawkins is a superior safety, and depending on how far we are going back, I would also place Leroy Butler, Carnell Lake, Ronnie Lott, Steve Atwater, John Lynch, and Darren Sharper.

Carnell Lake, Steve Atwater, John Lynch and Darren Sharper were not better than Harrison.

Atwater was definitely better than Harrison. Remember, Harrison has only ever made 2 Pro Bowl teams (compared to 8 for Atwater). I think people are remembering Harrison overly fondly because of the success of the Patriots. I love how, on his Wikipedia page, his entire San Diego career (9 years, including both of his pro bowls) is condensed into three sentences, while each individual season with New England is explained in detail. It just goes to show you how his New England tenure has left him dramatically overrated.Also, being considered the dirtiest player in the entire NFL is definitely not a point in his favor.

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

You are so wrong.

Agreed. Warner is anything BUT a lock.

 

[MarshallRob]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

Warner's not going in. He will be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall if you're only counting AP MVP awards. Joe Theisman won the Bert Bell MVP Trophy aka the Maxwell Trophy in 1982 (which was a bigger deal then than it is now) and the AP MVP award in 1983.

 

[David Yudkin]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

Warner is so far away from a lock that I doubt he'll get in . . . and I think it won't even be close. Yes, he was a two-time MVP but he did very little else. Those were his only two full seasons--he never played in more than 11 games in a season past that. He had one other year at 3,400 yards (and got hurt) and his next highest total was 2,700 yards. Beyond his two MVP years, his next best seasons for TD passes were 21 and then ELEVEN. Those were the only years he made it to double digits in TD passes. He does not rank in the Top 50 in passes, completions, yardage, or TDs. Yes, he's the all-time leader in completion percentage but that's about it. His story is the best part of his career, and I'm not sure that that alone will get him much consideration.

 

[LHUCKS]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

Warner is so far away from a lock that I doubt he'll get in . . . and I think it won't even be close. Yes, he was a two-time MVP but he did very little else. Those were his only two full seasons--he never played in more than 11 games in a season past that. He had one other year at 3,400 yards (and got hurt) and his next highest total was 2,700 yards. Beyond his two MVP years, his next best seasons for TD passes were 21 and then ELEVEN. Those were the only years he made it to double digits in TD passes. He does not rank in the Top 50 in passes, completions, yardage, or TDs. Yes, he's the all-time leader in completion percentage but that's about it. His story is the best part of his career, and I'm not sure that that alone will get him much consideration.

I think if you heavily weigh career statistics and games played then you will not be voting for Warner. Warner and TD are very interesting dilemmas for the NFL. Gale Sayers got in on a short, spectacular career. Bradshaw got in on the strength of SuperBowl victories and IMHO is probably the least talented QB in the Hall. Aikman got in on SB victories, but with unspectacular yardage/TD numbers.There is no set criteria other than "contribution to the game"...it will be interesting to see if Warner's contribution is valued enough in the eyes of the voters.

 

[David Yudkin]

LINK to Warner HOFer Y/N thread . . .

 

[Tau837]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

Warner is so far away from a lock that I doubt he'll get in . . . and I think it won't even be close. Yes, he was a two-time MVP but he did very little else. Those were his only two full seasons--he never played in more than 11 games in a season past that. He had one other year at 3,400 yards (and got hurt) and his next highest total was 2,700 yards. Beyond his two MVP years, his next best seasons for TD passes were 21 and then ELEVEN. Those were the only years he made it to double digits in TD passes. He does not rank in the Top 50 in passes, completions, yardage, or TDs. Yes, he's the all-time leader in completion percentage but that's about it. His story is the best part of his career, and I'm not sure that that alone will get him much consideration.

I think if you heavily weigh career statistics and games played then you will not be voting for Warner. Warner and TD are very interesting dilemmas for the NFL. Gale Sayers got in on a short, spectacular career. Bradshaw got in on the strength of SuperBowl victories and IMHO is probably the least talented QB in the Hall. Aikman got in on SB victories, but with unspectacular yardage/TD numbers.There is no set criteria other than "contribution to the game"...it will be interesting to see if Warner's contribution is valued enough in the eyes of the voters.

You seem to be backing off your statement that Warner is a lock. Have you realized you are wrong?

 

[LHUCKS]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

Warner is so far away from a lock that I doubt he'll get in . . . and I think it won't even be close. Yes, he was a two-time MVP but he did very little else. Those were his only two full seasons--he never played in more than 11 games in a season past that. He had one other year at 3,400 yards (and got hurt) and his next highest total was 2,700 yards. Beyond his two MVP years, his next best seasons for TD passes were 21 and then ELEVEN. Those were the only years he made it to double digits in TD passes. He does not rank in the Top 50 in passes, completions, yardage, or TDs. Yes, he's the all-time leader in completion percentage but that's about it. His story is the best part of his career, and I'm not sure that that alone will get him much consideration.

I think if you heavily weigh career statistics and games played then you will not be voting for Warner. Warner and TD are very interesting dilemmas for the NFL. Gale Sayers got in on a short, spectacular career. Bradshaw got in on the strength of SuperBowl victories and IMHO is probably the least talented QB in the Hall. Aikman got in on SB victories, but with unspectacular yardage/TD numbers.There is no set criteria other than "contribution to the game"...it will be interesting to see if Warner's contribution is valued enough in the eyes of the voters.

You seem to be backing off your statement that Warner is a lock.

Lock was too strong of a word...I think he has an excellent chance. He would be a lock to get my vote. I favor the short, spectacular careers over the long boring careers. Basically I'd put TD in over Curtis Martin, but I realize I'm very much in the minority.

 

[SSOG]

So Warner is going to be the first two time MVP to not make the Hall? I don't think so.

If Terrell Davis can be the first League and Superbowl MVP to miss the HoF, then Warner can become the first two-time MVP to miss the HoF.

Huge difference between the SB MVP and the league MVP.Warner is a lock.

Warner is so far away from a lock that I doubt he'll get in . . . and I think it won't even be close. Yes, he was a two-time MVP but he did very little else. Those were his only two full seasons--he never played in more than 11 games in a season past that. He had one other year at 3,400 yards (and got hurt) and his next highest total was 2,700 yards. Beyond his two MVP years, his next best seasons for TD passes were 21 and then ELEVEN. Those were the only years he made it to double digits in TD passes. He does not rank in the Top 50 in passes, completions, yardage, or TDs. Yes, he's the all-time leader in completion percentage but that's about it. His story is the best part of his career, and I'm not sure that that alone will get him much consideration.

I think if you heavily weigh career statistics and games played then you will not be voting for Warner. Warner and TD are very interesting dilemmas for the NFL. Gale Sayers got in on a short, spectacular career. Bradshaw got in on the strength of SuperBowl victories and IMHO is probably the least talented QB in the Hall. Aikman got in on SB victories, but with unspectacular yardage/TD numbers.There is no set criteria other than "contribution to the game"...it will be interesting to see if Warner's contribution is valued enough in the eyes of the voters.

I'm like you in that I'd rather see a short but spectacular career rewarded than a long-but-undistinguished career, but I think there's a big point against Warner that's not weighing against Terrell Davis. Terrell Davis was never healthy-but-unspectacular, while Warner was downright mediocre (at best) and was eventually cut by two different teams. In my opinion, HoFers don't get cut while they're still in their prime- and if they are cut, there's a line of teams fighting for their services.Kurt Warner was 31, almost 32 when St. Louis cut him loose, and almost nobody wanted him. He was 32, almost 33 when NY cut him loose, and again, almost nobody wanted him. A healthy Hall of Famer still in his prime (or just barely past his prime) does not get replaced. Not once, not twice, and CERTAINLY not three times like Warner has.

 

[Bri]

Can't see McCardell or Rod Smith making it. Nice careers numbers and good longevity, but neither one was truly exceptional. Two for the Hall of Very Good, perhaps.

I can see Rod Smith making it, but I personally don't believe he should.Tom Nalen should be a lock by now, though, and he doesn't even get a mention? He's already blocked for 6 (soon to be 7) DIFFERENT 1,000 yard rushers (including a 2,000 yard rusher, and almost a pair of 1,000 yard rushers in the same season). He blocked for two Superbowl Champions (making the pro bowl in both years), and he's been considered one of the top-2 centers in the league for most of the past decade.

I wouldn't say Nalen is a lock at all. He has made 5 Pro Bowls in 12 seasons. Nalen was only an AP All Pro once. Dermontti Dawson has been eligible for a few years, and hasn't even been a finalist, and I think most would say he was better than Nalen. I think he will be hurt by the perception that the rushing success was due to varying degrees to the entire line's effectiveness, the offensive system (e.g., the blocking schemes), Alex Gibbs, Mike Shanahan, etc. He has been very good throughout his career, but I don't think he will make it.And IMO Rod Smith has no chance.

I don't disagree with the sentiment here.Understanding you're a Broncos fan SSOG, I'm sure Rod is "up there" in your opinion. He has been very good but not top #s often except a handful of years for catches. He's viewed more as extremely effective than dominant. You could probably hit us with a 3rd down catches stat which shows how important his production has been but that doesn't seem to mean much to people looking back. I don't really understand why but it just doesn't hold much weight.Nalen wasn't one of the top 2 Cs IMO. Mawae I consider better than him. Next you concede the odd but true fact that the Steelers have oWned the C position for a long long long time in almost any type all star voting. Just in the AFC he's got some excellent competition just to be the best of his time and many people think the HOF should only be the best, not top 2 not top 3 but the best.

 

[Bri]

Kurt Warner was 31, almost 32 when St. Louis cut him loose, and almost nobody wanted him.

This isn't true at all. If you wanna roll with "nobody wanted to pay him 10 mil per year like his agent thought he could get" or somesuch then fine but it's foolish to just say no team wanted a recent NFL MVP and Superbowl winning QB.

 

[Bri]

What era are we defining as far as Harrison? I definitely believe Brian Dawkins is a superior safety, and depending on how far we are going back, I would also place Leroy Butler, Carnell Lake, Ronnie Lott, Steve Atwater, John Lynch, and Darren Sharper.

Carnell Lake, Steve Atwater, John Lynch and Darren Sharper were not better than Harrison.

S are always hard to evaluate. Many plays they make that fire you up are not really good plays. For example, if they smack a RB chances are he just got thru the rest of the D for a decent gain. A hit on a WR so that he doesn't catch it can seem like it's erased if he catches a pass for similar yardage on the next play. There's alot of "ya had to see it" to evaluating Safeties play vs others and I don't think all that many pay attention to S when they have the opportunity to hop from game to game on Sunday.Homers have always considerred their S best, saving the opposition from a TD has a "phew" factor that's again something you'd have to see to appreciate. In the stats you'll just see a big gain by the O.Lake was excellent and playing in Woodson's shadow shouldn't count against him. Didn't he make the pro bowl as a CB and a S? Lynch, IMO, should be in. I don't know that you could ask for more than Lynch or Lott or Woodson gave their teams.Harrison and Seau were the only ones that Charger D had that everyone knew of and yet their D was very good at times when the team just wasn't. His hard hits were very well known and often talked about on Mondays. As was said, he's received alot of press since he's been with the Pats.Atwater and Sharper have not been the darling of the press across the nation, I'd bet a vote would yield Harrison in over these 2. I'm not saying it's right....I'm not sure but I'm fairly confident he'd win.