Did AJ Smith "win" with the way he handled Jackson? (1 Viewer)

[geoff8695]

He wouldn't look foolish at all. He would be preserving trade assets for the least amount of money possible. That's the goal of every GM.If you believe A.J Smith is as petty, egotistical and diabolical as you make him out to be then what better way is there to screw over Vincent Jackson's earning power than by tagging him and denying him the financial security of a long term contract. What better way is there to punish a lowly player and agent for daring to defy him. If this is personal why wouldn't AJ Smith reward Vincent Jackson's reluctance to genuinely suit up this season by locking him into the same misery next season. If Vincent Jackson continues the charade that you believe is inevitable for another season he would have spent two full seasons in is earning prime racking up fines, negative publicity and statistical zeros. Does that sound like a recipe for a big payday when he eventually become a real unrestricted free agent?

I don't believe AJ will franchise VJ, especially if a "charade" takes place; and YES it would look extremely foolish for AJ to do so. If he turns around and has to pay a big payday to a 'malcontent' after he wasn't willing to pay anywhere near fair market value in 2010, a then pays top 5 salary (over $10,000,000) for 2011, then I would say that doesn't exactly fit the definition of "punishment". And YES VJ will gladly put seven figures in the bank if AJ 'tags' him next season.It doesn't matter if it's personal or not, or whether AJ is petty, egotistical, diabolical, or whatever. What matters is he made yet another miscalculation that is likely to cost his team... I used to root for the Chargers as my 2nd favorite team (after my hometown Bears) since way back in the glory days of air Coryell, and frankly I'm disgusted by the Chargers nickel and diming under AJ's tenure, and his questionable decisions from firing Schottenheimer after an NFL best 14-2 to how he has handled veteran players, to letting some very good talent get away, and failing to bring in FAs despite having the cap space to do so. He whiffed on a golden opportunity to deliver a championship caliber team, and I believe his mistakes have cost this franchise a shot at multiple championships over the last 5+ years. I'm glad some of you have enjoyed the 'successes', but honestly if it doesn't come with a Lombardi trophy then it's merely a window of opportunity that AJ has squandered IMO.On the bright side with Rivers in place there is a possibility of winning a championship any year in which the bolts make the postseason. Unfortunately, I believe that this is no longer the foregone conclusion that it used to be. The 2010 Chargers are older in some places and less talented in others, than they used to be, and the rest of the division is catching up to them. Being the tallest midget in the AFC West may no longer be SD's ticket to the postseason. If you want to go on tooting AJ's horn go right ahead and do so, but I've had more than enough of the 'genius' that is the Chargers GM and I'm not going to tell you it's raining when AJ pees down your backside.Am I an AJ 'hater'? Maybe... I really don't like AJ as an NFL GM (based on his failure to deliver in SD), and I don't trust him to put together a championship team and coaching staff. I will acknowledge that he and the Chargers scouting staff have put together some very commendable drafts, but otherwise I don't believe he deserves glowing praise and admiration from Chargers fans. You are of course free to continue to buy into what AJ is selling, I on the other hand will simply continue to be disappointed... And for the record, I feel similarly about Bears' team president Ted Phillips and GM Jerry Angelo. There I said it.

 

[geoff8695]

I think you are off the rails here. First off, your last two posts that were quoted in my response that you quoted here were not directly in response to any posts by Chargers fans. At least you didn't quote any. Nor did you quote anyone who was trying to convince you that A.J. is in the right and Jackson is an idiot. Furthermore, no one in this thread has portrayed A.J. as GM of the year or anything close to it, so you're just exaggerating on that point.And, yes, you must have posted at least 20 times that you expect that Jackson won't play to the best of his ability when he comes back. We get it. Really. You can stop now. In weeks 12 to 17, you will be proven right or wrong. I think wrong, but we'll see. If you turn out to be right, there must be several threads by now that you can go back to and bump to point out that you were right and A.J. is an idiot. There is no need to keep regurgitating the same thing over and over.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man...I will try to stay away from these threads, because I get angry when I see Charger fans stick up for AJ, particularly concerning the handling of this situation. However, my frustrations with AJ go back further than this... This was just the straw that broke the camel's back for me and I will no longer give him a pass, or the benefit of the doubt. Yes, he and the scouting dept. gave you some good drafts, otherwise though he has wasted a golden window of opportunity for his team to win championships, and I have ZERO confidence in him moving forward to deliver a Super Bowl caliber team and coaching staff.Since I am obviously bitter towards AJ, I will attempt to not let myself get sucked into these threads so often in the future. But I admit where my anger and frustrations over the Chargers squandered talent and opportunities go I can become a weak, weak man...

 

[Riffraff]

Next spring/fall when the Chargers are NOT getting the 2nd round pick+ that they coulda/shoulda/woulda gotten in trade for him; and VJ's agent structures his year one salary in such a way that SD gets little to no compensation after VJ finally signs his big UFA contract...

The comp pick is based upon paycheck and performance with his new team. Are you telling everyone here that VJ will dog his first season with his new team as well?

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

I don't believe AJ will franchise VJ, especially if a "charade" takes place; and YES it would look extremely foolish for AJ to do so. If he turns around and has to pay a big payday to a 'malcontent' after he wasn't willing to pay anywhere near fair market value in 2010, a then pays top 5 salary (over $10,000,000) for 2011, then I would say that doesn't exactly fit the definition of "punishment". And YES VJ will gladly put seven figures in the bank if AJ 'tags' him next season.

He has to pay a significant salary to keep him next year. Due to the expiration of the CBA He didn't have to this year. Thats the entire point that continuously falls on deaf ears. In both cases he is doing the least monetarily required to retain Vincent Jackson's rights.

It doesn't matter if it's personal or not, or whether AJ is petty, egotistical, diabolical, or whatever. What matters is he made yet another miscalculation that is likely to cost his team...

What was the miscalculation? That Vincent Jackson would eventually sign for the reduced tender?That the Chargers would retain his rights if he sat out the entire season?That the Vikings would increase their offer if they held firm in their compensation demands?That Malcolm Floyd would be able to sufficiently produce as a WR1 in the offense?That Phillip Rivers would not be significantly negatively impacted without Vincent Jackson on the field?

I used to root for the Chargers as my 2nd favorite team (after my hometown Bears) since way back in the glory days of air Coryell, and frankly I'm disgusted by the Chargers nickel and diming under AJ's tenure, and his questionable decisions from firing Schottenheimer after an NFL best 14-2 to how he has handled veteran players, to letting some very good talent get away, and failing to bring in FAs despite having the cap space to do so. He whiffed on a golden opportunity to deliver a championship caliber team, and I believe his mistakes have cost this franchise a shot at multiple championships over the last 5+ years. I'm glad some of you have enjoyed the 'successes', but honestly if it doesn't come with a Lombardi trophy then it's merely a window of opportunity that AJ has squandered IMO.On the bright side with Rivers in place there is a possibility of winning a championship any year in which the bolts make the postseason. Unfortunately, I believe that this is no longer the foregone conclusion that it used to be. The 2010 Chargers are older in some places and less talented in others, than they used to be, and the rest of the division is catching up to them. Being the tallest midget in the AFC West may no longer be SD's ticket to the postseason. If you want to go on tooting AJ's horn go right ahead and do so, but I've had more than enough of the 'genius' that is the Chargers GM and I'm not going to tell you it's raining when AJ pees down your backside.Am I an AJ 'hater'? Maybe... I really don't like AJ as an NFL GM (based on his failure to deliver in SD), and I don't trust him to put together a championship team and coaching staff. I will acknowledge that he and the Chargers scouting staff have put together some very commendable drafts, but otherwise I don't believe he deserves glowing praise and admiration from Chargers fans. You are of course free to continue to buy into what AJ is selling, I on the other hand will simply continue to be disappointed... And for the record, I feel similarly about Bears' team president Ted Phillips and GM Jerry Angelo. There I said it.

The funny thing about the "Lord of No Rings" moniker is that it acknowledges that hes better than about 2/3 of the GMs in the league right now. Who are all of these multiple Lombardi winning general managers that you are comparing him to? And among those how many of those don't nickel and dime their players?Since you are a Chargers fan where exactly would you rank A.J. Smith among the perpetual championship winning Chargers general managers of our history?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Next spring/fall when the Chargers are NOT getting the 2nd round pick+ that they coulda/shoulda/woulda gotten in trade for him; and VJ's agent structures his year one salary in such a way that SD gets little to no compensation after VJ finally signs his big UFA contract...

The comp pick is based upon paycheck and performance with his new team. Are you telling everyone here that VJ will dog his first season with his new team as well?

very few players warrant a 2nd round comp pick.... The point is, the Chargers could have grabbed a 2nd rounder +.... but didn't, now they'll get a 3rd or less

 

[craxie]

Thats the entire point that continuously falls on deaf ears. In both cases he is doing the least monetarily required to retain Vincent Jackson's rights.

Is the ultimate goal to 'retain his rights' or to have him actually play?

What was the miscalculation?

Assuming the easy schedule meant the team wouldn't miss MM for 5 games and VJ for 6 games

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Is the ultimate goal to 'retain his rights' or to have him actually play?Assuming the easy schedule meant the team wouldn't miss MM for 5 games and VJ for 6 games

Both. If a player chooses to sabotage his own career and not play there is little to nothing a GM can do about it. When did A.J. Smith say anything remotely connected to that? Any miscalculation that has to do with the Chargers play right now has to with their historically bad special teams play so far this season. Football Outsiders has them as having a top 5 offense, top 4 defense and the worst special teams in the league (by a large margin) right now. How do you project caving to MM or VJ contract's demands in the offseason would have improved those three rankings?

 

[craxie]

Both. If a player chooses to sabotage his own career and not play there is little to nothing a GM can do about it.

VJ isn't 'sabotaging his career'. Far from it, he's protecting it by refusing to risk injury while playing for peanuts.As to what the GM can do about it, the answer is simple: pay the manThere's no reason AJ couldn't have given MM the same deal BEFORE the season and VJ is apparently willing to sign a 1 year deal for a very reasonable $6 million.

How do you project caving to MM or VJ contract's demands in the offseason would have improved those three rankings?

MM and VJ would clearly and undeniably have improved the offense.Improved offense = more points.More points = more wins.It may have also helped special teams by keeping Naanee there.

 

[fatness]

He wouldn't look foolish at all. He would be preserving trade assets for the least amount of money possible. That's the goal of every GM.

I don't think so. I think the goal of every GM is to put a winning team on the field.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

VJ isn't 'sabotaging his career'. Far from it, he's protecting it by refusing to risk injury while playing for peanuts.As to what the GM can do about it, the answer is simple: pay the manThere's no reason AJ couldn't have given MM the same deal BEFORE the season and VJ is apparently willing to sign a 1 year deal for a very reasonable $6 million.

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

MM and VJ would clearly and undeniably have improved the offense.Improved offense = more points.More points = more wins.It may have also helped special teams by keeping Naanee there.

So what was his miscalculation regarding the two? That a top 5 offense would be good enough to win games? Does that strike you as a unreasonable prediction to make?

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

He wouldn't look foolish at all. He would be preserving trade assets for the least amount of money possible. That's a goal of every GM.

I don't think so. I think the goal of every GM is to put a winning team on the field.

Happy now? Do you have a coherent rebuttal to offer or are you just here to argue semantics?

 

[craxie]

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.

1. remains to be seen if he gets the dreaded phantom injury to avoid any play time at all2. $3 million is nothing compared to the $50 million deal he could get. If sacrificing all $3 million keeps him from being injured in the first 6 games, then it was worth itof course we can never know what would have happened, but the choice isn't illogical

How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

unlikely. Marshall behaved like a grade-A jackass and still got a monster deal

So what was his miscalculation regarding the two? That a top 5 offense would be good enough to win games? Does that strike you as a unreasonable prediction to make?

yes, that is exactly his miscalculation. however 'reasonable' it might have been, he was WRONG. historically unlikely but tough luck. his call, his responsibility, he takes the blame

 

[tommyGunZ]

On the bright side with Rivers in place there is a possibility of winning a championship any year in which the bolts make the postseason. Unfortunately, I believe that this is no longer the foregone conclusion that it used to be.

It was never a foregone conclusion. Any analysis based on the idea that a championship is a foregone conclusion is doomed from the outset.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Next spring/fall when the Chargers are NOT getting the 2nd round pick+ that they coulda/shoulda/woulda gotten in trade for him; and VJ's agent structures his year one salary in such a way that SD gets little to no compensation after VJ finally signs his big UFA contract...

The comp pick is based upon paycheck and performance with his new team. Are you telling everyone here that VJ will dog his first season with his new team as well?

very few players warrant a 2nd round comp pick.... The point is, the Chargers could have grabbed a 2nd rounder +.... but didn't, now they'll get a 3rd or less

They also get Vincent Jackson for the final 6 games of the regular season, and the playoffs.A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

 

[Tau837]

They also get Vincent Jackson for the final 6 games of the regular season, and the playoffs.A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

This is a point that many of those criticizing Smith's handling of Jackson have ignored. Others are convinced Jackson will fake an injury or otherwise not give his all, so they will not recognize him being back for those games as being valuable and thus believe A.J. should have traded him. I do expect him to give his all, so I agree with your take here.

 

[tommyGunZ]

They also get Vincent Jackson for the final 6 games of the regular season, and the playoffs.A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

This is a point that many of those criticizing Smith's handling of Jackson have ignored. Others are convinced Jackson will fake an injury or otherwise not give his all, so they will not recognize him being back for those games as being valuable and thus believe A.J. should have traded him. I do expect him to give his all, so I agree with your take here.

Logically, it makes no sense for VJax to come back and half-### it; any professional athlete will tell you that they're likely to get injured when not going full speed. Not to mention that tanking reflects poorly on his character, which hurts his leverage in contract negotiations next spring.Then again, it's clear that VJax doesn't always act logically or in his best interests, so who knows.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Then again, it's clear that VJax doesn't always act logically or in his best interests, so who knows.

He's made some poor decisions in the past — some of them on his own, some on the advice of his agents.But he's not a complete doosh. When he reports, he'll play hard. He might pull a hamstring after sitting out for so long, but he won't fake it. That's just not him. It might be Brandon Marshall, but it's not Vincent Jackson.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Then again, it's clear that VJax doesn't always act logically or in his best interests, so who knows.

He's made some poor decisions in the past — some of them on his own, some on the advice of his agents.But he's not a complete doosh. When he reports, he'll play hard. He might pull a hamstring after sitting out for so long, but he won't fake it. That's just not him. It might be Brandon Marshall, but it's not Vincent Jackson.

I agree. Jackson seems like a good dude, despite his missteps. If I was his agent, I'd advise him to consider reporting now, so that he can play a week early, as a sign of good will toward his teammates. Of course reporting a week early means he plays in 7 games instead of 6, increasing his risk of injury, so perhaps the reward isn't worth the risk.

 

[Deaddawg]

I think VJ will play hard to finish the season. I don't think you will see him laying out for passes out of reach though. He is not going to put himself into a position to get destroyed. If I was VJ, I would develop arms 6" shorter every now than just to make sure I stayed healthy.

 

[greenroom]

Next spring/fall when the Chargers are NOT getting the 2nd round pick+ that they coulda/shoulda/woulda gotten in trade for him; and VJ's agent structures his year one salary in such a way that SD gets little to no compensation after VJ finally signs his big UFA contract...

The comp pick is based upon paycheck and performance with his new team. Are you telling everyone here that VJ will dog his first season with his new team as well?

very few players warrant a 2nd round comp pick.... The point is, the Chargers could have grabbed a 2nd rounder +.... but didn't, now they'll get a 3rd or less

They also get Vincent Jackson for the final 6 games of the regular season, and the playoffs.A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

I would not bank on SD making the playoffs. Have you looked at their schedule?? It would not shock me to see SD sitting at home when the playoffs start. I could see them losing to at least 3 out of their next 5 games easy ( NE, TN or Hou and Indy) before the schedule gets easier.

 

[craxie]

A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

You assume it won't be too late by the time VJ arrives.It would be truly 'hilarious' if VJ comes back, they go on a 6-game win streak and still miss the playoffs.If having VJax for 6 games is of more value than the jump from 3rd to a 2+4, wouldn't having him for 12 games be worth at least $6 million?Before you can worry about his value in the playoffs you have to MAKE the playoffs.Either VJ is so valuable you should pay the man to play or he isn't valuable and they should have traded him. AJ is playing a dangerous game and is going to be drug out and shot if they don't make the playoffs.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

If having VJax for 6 games is of more value than the jump from 3rd to a 2+4, wouldn't having him for 12 games be worth at least $6 million?

Personally, I don't think the difference between having him for 6 games and having him for 12 games is worth $6 million. (That would be $1 million per game: a $16 million valuation over a full season. They could have franchised him for half of that, even though it makes no sense to use the franchise tag on a restricted free agent.)I mean, it's worth it to me if it's somebody else's money. But I don't think it would be worth it if it were my money.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

If having VJax for 6 games is of more value than the jump from 3rd to a 2+4, wouldn't having him for 12 games be worth at least $6 million?

Personally, I don't think the difference between having him for 6 games and having him for 12 games is worth $6 million. (That would be $1 million per game: a $16 million valuation over a full season. They could have franchised him for half of that, even though it makes no sense to use the franchise tag on a restricted free agent.)I mean, it's worth it to me if it's somebody else's money. But I don't think it would be worth it if it were my money.

really? his presence could mean a home playoff game or two??? how much do the owners make for an extra game? I think we will be hearing the term "Conduct detremental to the team" in his future.

 

[Holy Schneikes]

I think it's pretty funny that I see quite a few assumptions that a 2-4 team is going to make the playoffs. Basing your opinion of this situation on that assumption doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to say the least.

It does kid of illustrate the lack of real perspective on the situation though, and explains some of the positions I've seen. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Getting Jackson for 6 games doesn't gain you SQUAT if you don't make the playoffs (for a team that went 13-3 last year and was supposed to be a "lock" for the post-season). Doesn't really matter how much you paid him.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I think it's pretty funny that I see quite a few assumptions that a 2-4 team is going to make the playoffs. Basing your opinion of this situation on that assumption doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to say the least.It does kid of illustrate the lack of real perspective on the situation though, and explains some of the positions I've seen. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.Getting Jackson for 6 games doesn't gain you SQUAT if you don't make the playoffs (for a team that went 13-3 last year and was supposed to be a "lock" for the post-season). Doesn't really matter how much you paid him.

San Diego is in 2nd place, just behind the Chiefs. Why would you assume that they aren't going to make the playoffs?Would you like to put a wager on it?

 

[Air Coryell]

Am I an AJ 'hater'? Maybe... I really don't like AJ as an NFL GM (based on his failure to deliver in SD), and I don't trust him to put together a championship team and coaching staff. I will acknowledge that he and the Chargers scouting staff have put together some very commendable drafts, but otherwise I don't believe he deserves glowing praise and admiration from Chargers fans. You are of course free to continue to buy into what AJ is selling, I on the other hand will simply continue to be disappointed... And for the record, I feel similarly about Bears' team president Ted Phillips and GM Jerry Angelo. There I said it.

How quickly we forget how bad it was with Bobby Beathard as a GM.

 

[Holy Schneikes]

I think it's pretty funny that I see quite a few assumptions that a 2-4 team is going to make the playoffs. Basing your opinion of this situation on that assumption doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to say the least.It does kid of illustrate the lack of real perspective on the situation though, and explains some of the positions I've seen. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.Getting Jackson for 6 games doesn't gain you SQUAT if you don't make the playoffs (for a team that went 13-3 last year and was supposed to be a "lock" for the post-season). Doesn't really matter how much you paid him.

San Diego is in 2nd place, just behind the Chiefs. Why would you assume that they aren't going to make the playoffs?Would you like to put a wager on it?

LOL. They are 2-4, and a clear 3rd, as listed nfl.com, having already lost one game each to the two teams above them in the division. More than a 3rd of the season is OVER. I'm not a big fan of random message board bets, but if I went to Vegas and you gave me even odds I would EASILY take the field. I'd put them at about a 25% chance at winning the division, same as all the rest of the teams with a slight edge to KC. Then I'd put their wild-card chances much lower than that with 7 NON-division-leading teams currently above them by a game or more. PLUS, they have already faced some terrible teams and are about to face three excellent ones. It's not at all out of the question that they end up 2-7 after the next three games. Unless you think any of the Patriots, Titans or Texans are gimme games?I don't think I'd be comfortable ASSUMING playoff status either way, but the fact is that if the season ended today, they are out by a mile. The COULD certainly make a run and get back in contention. They are a better team than their record shows. But to ASSUME that will happen is ridiculous given their record.

 

[Sebowski]

Next spring/fall when the Chargers are NOT getting the 2nd round pick+ that they coulda/shoulda/woulda gotten in trade for him; and VJ's agent structures his year one salary in such a way that SD gets little to no compensation after VJ finally signs his big UFA contract...

The comp pick is based upon paycheck and performance with his new team. Are you telling everyone here that VJ will dog his first season with his new team as well?

very few players warrant a 2nd round comp pick.... The point is, the Chargers could have grabbed a 2nd rounder +.... but didn't, now they'll get a 3rd or less

They also get Vincent Jackson for the final 6 games of the regular season, and the playoffs.A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

The best possible comp pick based on today's rules (rules that are subject to change in the new CBA) is a pick AFTER the 3rd round. Best case is the 97th pick, and that is only if the Chargers bring in less FAs than they lose. With this roster Chargers fans should be hoping for an influx of FAs, not a strategy to avoid FAs and hope for a better comp pick. It is also worth noting that according to draft pick value charts a good rule of thumb is that a pick this year is worth one a full round up the next year. To get a 4th in 2012 (97th pick) they would only need to give up a 5th in 2011. So that is essentially what the best case scenario for those banking on a comp pick are getting. VJax for a 5th in 2011 if the comp rules stay the same and if no more FAs are brought in than lost. Meanwhile AJ could have taken a 2nd in 2011 (worth a 1st in 2012 if traded) from a team with a losing record. That Vikes pick is probably going to be between 47-57.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

VJ signed the tender because he needed credit for this year. I don't think anyone expected him to not play enough games to get another years credit for career status...If he would have signed the original tender and then sat out games refusing to play I believe he would have been fined.. So he's just following a strategy that players before him have followed... This was an option in his plan the whole time. You're acting like he gave in or something..A guy who has played like VJ has for the last 6 years shouldn't be expected to play a whole season for the peanuts AJ was offering... You AJ apologists should realize that it wouldn't be fair to VJ, and AJ is a complete dou-che for putting him in this situation... A glitch, or loophole in the current labor agreement has allowed AJ to screw over one of his best players, a loyal player, whole has done everything on the field, and negotiation wise (before 2010) that a perfect player should... He has been a great asset for the team, out played his contract, without complaint, and they Sh-it on him...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

They also get Vincent Jackson for the final 6 games of the regular season, and the playoffs.A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

Very unlikely they get a 3rd....And .... PLAYOFFS? are we talking about PLAYOFFS?... PLAYOFFS!?...So it's an mid to early 2nd in 2011 vs. a pick at the very end of the 4th in 2012... A 2011 2nd rounder is worth a 2012 1st rounder in trade values.... You're pretty far off in value there... Value is mid/late first rounder in 2012 vs. pick at the end of the 4th round 2012... Major value lost there..And I don't get how all the AJ apologists are trying to devalue VJ's game when it come's to AJ missing out on the use of VJ because of the way he's handled the situation... But then inflate the value of having VJ for the final 6 games... So make up your minds, is his game play valuable or not?

 

[Sebowski]

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

VJ signed the tender because he needed credit for this year. I don't think anyone expected him to not play enough games to get another years credit for career status...

I didn't expect him to. I thought his best move at this point was to sit out the year and deal with next year next year. Take it to the courts if he has to. He fulfilled his contract. I don't believe the new CBA will have more than 5 years needed to accrue FA, so he will have been set free.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

VJ signed the tender because he needed credit for this year. I don't think anyone expected him to not play enough games to get another years credit for career status...

I didn't expect him to. I thought his best move at this point was to sit out the year and deal with next year next year. Take it to the courts if he has to. He fulfilled his contract. I don't believe the new CBA will have more than 5 years needed to accrue FA, so he will have been set free.

That would be purely speculation on your part.. Could he chance not getting credit and end up in the same situation next season? There is a chance the current agreement gets extended. And there is a chance that the new agreement doesn't specifically help his cause.. The safe thing to do would be to get credit for the year...

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

VJ signed the tender because he needed credit for this year. I don't think anyone expected him to not play enough games to get another years credit for career status...If he would have signed the original tender and then sat out games refusing to play I believe he would have been fined.. So he's just following a strategy that players before him have followed... This was an option in his plan the whole time. You're acting like he gave in or something..A guy who has played like VJ has for the last 6 years shouldn't be expected to play a whole season for the peanuts AJ was offering... You AJ apologists should realize that it wouldn't be fair to VJ, and AJ is a complete dou-che for putting him in this situation... A glitch, or loophole in the current labor agreement has allowed AJ to screw over one of his best players, a loyal player, whole has done everything on the field, and negotiation wise (before 2010) that a perfect player should... He has been a great asset for the team, out played his contract, without complaint, and they Sh-it on him...

San Diego Chargers wide receiver Vincent Jackson said in an interview Friday on NFL Network that he will "absolutely" sit out the entire 2010 season if he does not get a long-term contract."We're prepared for that," Jackson said in the interview. "The union comes and talks to us about the lockout possibly next year and I've been financially smart."Jackson said he wants to return, but won't without what he thinks is the right compensation.Jackson is seeking a five-year contract worth $50 million, with $30 million guaranteed, sources told ESPN.com senior writer John Clayton."I'm ready for the long haul, but again I miss football," Jackson said. "I'm passionate about the game. I wouldn't be out here training and working as hard as I am if I wasn't. I'm hoping everything works out, but I'm not holding my breath for anything."

Sounds like he gave in to me, but what do I know. Hopefully someone smarter than me can hop in here and explain to me how saying he will sit out the entire season unless he gets a long term contract and instead signing for about 20% of his original tender is not giving in. Aside from earning himself a three game suspension for embarrassing off field activities I don't see what Vincent Jackson has done to differentiate himself from any other Charger to warrant so much sympathy. You guys award brownie points to players for not holding out the season before they hold out now?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

VJ signed the tender because he needed credit for this year. I don't think anyone expected him to not play enough games to get another years credit for career status...If he would have signed the original tender and then sat out games refusing to play I believe he would have been fined.. So he's just following a strategy that players before him have followed... This was an option in his plan the whole time. You're acting like he gave in or something..A guy who has played like VJ has for the last 6 years shouldn't be expected to play a whole season for the peanuts AJ was offering... You AJ apologists should realize that it wouldn't be fair to VJ, and AJ is a complete dou-che for putting him in this situation... A glitch, or loophole in the current labor agreement has allowed AJ to screw over one of his best players, a loyal player, whole has done everything on the field, and negotiation wise (before 2010) that a perfect player should... He has been a great asset for the team, out played his contract, without complaint, and they Sh-it on him...

San Diego Chargers wide receiver Vincent Jackson said in an interview Friday on NFL Network that he will "absolutely" sit out the entire 2010 season if he does not get a long-term contract."We're prepared for that," Jackson said in the interview. "The union comes and talks to us about the lockout possibly next year and I've been financially smart."Jackson said he wants to return, but won't without what he thinks is the right compensation.Jackson is seeking a five-year contract worth $50 million, with $30 million guaranteed, sources told ESPN.com senior writer John Clayton."I'm ready for the long haul, but again I miss football," Jackson said. "I'm passionate about the game. I wouldn't be out here training and working as hard as I am if I wasn't. I'm hoping everything works out, but I'm not holding my breath for anything."

Sounds like he gave in to me, but what do I know. Hopefully someone smarter than me can hop in here and explain to me how saying he will sit out the entire season unless he gets a long term contract and instead signing for about 20% of his original tender is not giving in. Aside from earning himself a three game suspension for embarrassing off field activities I don't see what Vincent Jackson has done to differentiate himself from any other Charger to warrant so much sympathy. You guys award brownie points to players for not holding out the season before they hold out now?

If you think during negotiations that anything he says to the media is anything more than posturing then obviously there is no sense in us debating the issue...Getting 2 DUI's is embarrassing, but not in anyway worth underpaying him at work... And yes, I do give him brownie points for outplaying his rookie contract and not even a peep about proper compensation until the time his contract should have been up... Now he's being f-ed by a glitch, and you (AJ apologist) excuse this behavior because he had a DUI..? sickening.. No loyalty for a loyal player who had done nothing but good for your team until now... Off field mistakes don't come close to offsetting his on-field dedication...

 

[tommyGunZ]

They also get Vincent Jackson for the final 6 games of the regular season, and the playoffs.A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

Very unlikely they get a 3rd....And .... PLAYOFFS? are we talking about PLAYOFFS?... PLAYOFFS!?...So it's an mid to early 2nd in 2011 vs. a pick at the very end of the 4th in 2012... A 2011 2nd rounder is worth a 2012 1st rounder in trade values.... You're pretty far off in value there... Value is mid/late first rounder in 2012 vs. pick at the end of the 4th round 2012... Major value lost there..

Why is it unlikely San Diego gets a 3rd?And yeah, I'm talking about the playoffs. Care to put your $ where your mouth is? $100 says San Diego wins the AFC West. What's up?

 

[tommyGunZ]

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

VJ signed the tender because he needed credit for this year. I don't think anyone expected him to not play enough games to get another years credit for career status...

I didn't expect him to. I thought his best move at this point was to sit out the year and deal with next year next year. Take it to the courts if he has to. He fulfilled his contract. I don't believe the new CBA will have more than 5 years needed to accrue FA, so he will have been set free.

There is a provision in the current CBA that states that a player cannot become an UFA by sitting out the previous season. So even if 5 years is the standard under the new CBA, Jackson would be a RFA due to sitting out 2010 despite having the 5 years.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

If you think during negotiations that anything he says to the media is anything more than posturing then obviously there is no sense in us debating the issue...Getting 2 DUI's is embarrassing, but not in anyway worth underpaying him at work... And yes, I do give him brownie points for outplaying his rookie contract and not even a peep about proper compensation until the time his contract should have been up... Now he's being f-ed by a glitch, and you (AJ apologist) excuse this behavior because he had a DUI..? sickening.. No loyalty for a loyal player who had done nothing but good for your team until now... Off field mistakes don't come close to offsetting his on-field dedication...

What is there to debate? I don't even think A.J Smith could have offered any lower of an offer. How can you possibly describe any party getting over on the other without taking into effect what each party asked for during negotiations? Did Vincent Jackson get absolutely anything that he asked for?

Boss: I am offering you a 40/hr jobCH: I won't sign for that little money.Boss: Fine consider that offer off the table. My new offer is minimum wage.CH I really won't sign for that. A month later...CH Can I get that minimum wage job offer again?Boss: OkCH: Thanks. I'm glad we were able to complete this negotiation without one side getting over on the other

I agree with you. Vincent Jackson is very loyal and dedicated to his team except for when hes holding out for more money, embarrassing the team with dangerous off field behavior and allowing his agents to publicly disrespect the organization.

 

[Sebowski]

By signing the reduced tender Vincent Jackson chose a risk/reward payout thats even less in his favor than signing the original tender. That makes him a loser in the business sense for this year.How he handles the rest of the season and/or the following one if tagged is where Vincent Jackson has the ability to sabotage his career.

VJ signed the tender because he needed credit for this year. I don't think anyone expected him to not play enough games to get another years credit for career status...

I didn't expect him to. I thought his best move at this point was to sit out the year and deal with next year next year. Take it to the courts if he has to. He fulfilled his contract. I don't believe the new CBA will have more than 5 years needed to accrue FA, so he will have been set free.

There is a provision in the current CBA that states that a player cannot become an UFA by sitting out the previous season. So even if 5 years is the standard under the new CBA, Jackson would be a RFA due to sitting out 2010 despite having the 5 years.

It's semantics. It may say you can't be an UFA after sitting a year out, but it also says that 5 years of service gives you UFA after your contract expires. They contradict each other, and I'd bet an arbitrator would close the loophole. The contract he signed expired. When he signed it the rules were 5 years and you're free. The owners voided the CBA and here we are. When the terms of service are brought back down the logical thing to do would be to set VJ free.

 

[trader jake]

I fail to see how "AJ won" considering the team's current record. In the end that's all that matters.That record has more to do with Norv Turner being the head coach that the McNeill and Jackson situations though.

It's been said here before, but there's no way to know that Jackson would have changed the record at all. I'm not convinced he would have. Even if you say he would have turned one game into a win...that's not enough to offset the precedent imo. At the very most that kind of "cost" was two wins in one season. At the least it was no wins.The lesson learned is you can't hijack the team, especially when you're a behavioral risk. I'm not saying I don't see Jackson's side-- he did play out his contract. But when push comes to shove, the players are usually the ones who get shoved. I still say AJ won. The next agent will have to take this situation into account when advising their client.

Or the lesson learned is do whatever you can to avoid playing for the Charger franchise. See also: Eli Manning

 

[tommyGunZ]

When he signed it the rules were 5 years and you're free.

The rule states that you can't become an UFA the season after sitting out a season. VJax was not an UFA this season. Therefore he cannot be an UFA next year by sitting out 2010, under the current rules.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I fail to see how "AJ won" considering the team's current record. In the end that's all that matters.That record has more to do with Norv Turner being the head coach that the McNeill and Jackson situations though.

It's been said here before, but there's no way to know that Jackson would have changed the record at all. I'm not convinced he would have. Even if you say he would have turned one game into a win...that's not enough to offset the precedent imo. At the very most that kind of "cost" was two wins in one season. At the least it was no wins.The lesson learned is you can't hijack the team, especially when you're a behavioral risk. I'm not saying I don't see Jackson's side-- he did play out his contract. But when push comes to shove, the players are usually the ones who get shoved. I still say AJ won. The next agent will have to take this situation into account when advising their client.

Or the lesson learned is do whatever you can to avoid playing for the Charger franchise. See also: Eli Manning

I'd be surprised if Eli Manning wouldn't trade places with Philip Rivers right now if he had the chance.

 

[geoff8695]

I'd be surprised if Eli Manning wouldn't trade places with Philip Rivers right now if he had the chance.

Yeah, I'm sure Eli cries himself to sleep at night because he isn't a Charger... NYGiants = 4-2 1st place in their division and three years removed from their 3rd Super Bowl Championship (with Eli as QB)SD = 2-4 last place in their division, and the franchise's high water mark is a Super Bowl loss almost 20 years ago. Rivers has yet to even appear in a Super Bowl and the Chargers have NEVER won one.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Hopefully someone smarter than me can hop in here and explain to me how saying he will sit out the entire season unless he gets a long term contract and instead signing for about 20% of his original tender is not giving in.

If he'd signed his original tender, he would have made $2.68 million this year. As things stand now, he'll make $240K this year. So it's really less than 10% of his original tender.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

It's semantics. It may say you can't be an UFA after sitting a year out, but it also says that 5 years of service gives you UFA after your contract expires. They contradict each other, and I'd bet an arbitrator would close the loophole. The contract he signed expired. When he signed it the rules were 5 years and you're free. The owners voided the CBA and here we are. When the terms of service are brought back down the logical thing to do would be to set VJ free.

The two provisions don't contradict each other. One supersedes the other. There's no real debate that under the current CBA, VJ would be a restricted free agent again next year if he sat out this season. And the provisions pertaining to an uncapped year have been in the CBA since before VJ signed his contract.

 

[craxie]

The two provisions don't contradict each other. One supersedes the other.

There is nothing in the CBA to indicate which has priority

There's no real debate that under the current CBA, VJ would be a restricted free agent again next year if he sat out this season.

if by that you mean, the RFA requirement would still be 6 and he wouldn't have 6, okif by that you mean even if the requirement went back to 4 the "can't sit out a year" provision would keep him an RFA, BS

 

[Carolina Hustler]

They also get Vincent Jackson for the final 6 games of the regular season, and the playoffs.A 3rd in '12 and VJax for 6 games + playoffs in '10 >>>>>>>> a 2nd in '11.

Very unlikely they get a 3rd....And .... PLAYOFFS? are we talking about PLAYOFFS?... PLAYOFFS!?...So it's an mid to early 2nd in 2011 vs. a pick at the very end of the 4th in 2012... A 2011 2nd rounder is worth a 2012 1st rounder in trade values.... You're pretty far off in value there... Value is mid/late first rounder in 2012 vs. pick at the end of the 4th round 2012... Major value lost there..

Why is it unlikely San Diego gets a 3rd?And yeah, I'm talking about the playoffs. Care to put your $ where your mouth is? $100 says San Diego wins the AFC West. What's up?

Instead of pushing someone you don't know to make an unenforceable bet over the internet, try using communicative skills... Tell us why you think they'll get a 3rd round pick, show us how you calculate it... And same with the AFC west wins...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I'd be surprised if Eli Manning wouldn't trade places with Philip Rivers right now if he had the chance.

Yeah, I'm sure Eli cries himself to sleep at night because he isn't a Charger... NYGiants = 4-2 1st place in their division and three years removed from their 3rd Super Bowl Championship (with Eli as QB)SD = 2-4 last place in their division, and the franchise's high water mark is a Super Bowl loss almost 20 years ago. Rivers has yet to even appear in a Super Bowl and the Chargers have NEVER won one.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If you think during negotiations that anything he says to the media is anything more than posturing then obviously there is no sense in us debating the issue...Getting 2 DUI's is embarrassing, but not in anyway worth underpaying him at work... And yes, I do give him brownie points for outplaying his rookie contract and not even a peep about proper compensation until the time his contract should have been up... Now he's being f-ed by a glitch, and you (AJ apologist) excuse this behavior because he had a DUI..? sickening.. No loyalty for a loyal player who had done nothing but good for your team until now... Off field mistakes don't come close to offsetting his on-field dedication...

What is there to debate? I don't even think A.J Smith could have offered any lower of an offer. How can you possibly describe any party getting over on the other without taking into effect what each party asked for during negotiations? Did Vincent Jackson get absolutely anything that he asked for?

Boss: I am offering you a 40/hr jobCH: I won't sign for that little money.Boss: Fine consider that offer off the table. My new offer is minimum wage.CH I really won't sign for that. A month later...CH Can I get that minimum wage job offer again?Boss: OkCH: Thanks. I'm glad we were able to complete this negotiation without one side getting over on the other

I agree with you. Vincent Jackson is very loyal and dedicated to his team except for when hes holding out for more money, embarrassing the team with dangerous off field behavior and allowing his agents to publicly disrespect the organization.

Jackson got to minimize his exposure to injury so that he has a better chance to stay healthy and win a big contract. Basically what players want is Money wins, and to stay healthy in order to procure money and wins... It's always a consideration to do what they can to stay healthy. That's why so many players complain about preseason games...Basically he didn't want to play for peanuts per game, and expose him self to injury for 100k per game... So based on the current CBA, where even your fellow AJ apologists are saying he needed credit for this year, he's playing a minimum in order to make it to UFA next season... This has always been the expected plan for players that hold out..

 

[fatness]

He wouldn't look foolish at all. He would be preserving trade assets for the least amount of money possible. That's a goal of every GM.

I don't think so. I think the goal of every GM is to put a winning team on the field.

Happy now? Do you have a coherent rebuttal to offer or are you just here to argue semantics?

Touchy, touchy.You're interested in Smith getting value for assets. The same as people on fantasy football message boards who constantly are gleeful that they "got value" in their drafting and trading, don't care that their team finished 5-8, and believe they deserve congratulations. Most people, GM's included, want to win, not get awards for "preserving assets".

 

[crnerblitz]

I fail to see how "AJ won" considering the team's current record. In the end that's all that matters.That record has more to do with Norv Turner being the head coach that the McNeill and Jackson situations though.

It's been said here before, but there's no way to know that Jackson would have changed the record at all. I'm not convinced he would have. Even if you say he would have turned one game into a win...that's not enough to offset the precedent imo. At the very most that kind of "cost" was two wins in one season. At the least it was no wins.The lesson learned is you can't hijack the team, especially when you're a behavioral risk. I'm not saying I don't see Jackson's side-- he did play out his contract. But when push comes to shove, the players are usually the ones who get shoved. I still say AJ won. The next agent will have to take this situation into account when advising their client.

Or the lesson learned is do whatever you can to avoid playing for the Charger franchise. See also: Eli Manning

I'd be surprised if Eli Manning wouldn't trade places with Philip Rivers right now if he had the chance.

[Flo] SUPRISE!!1! [\Flo]