How do you feel about Orton now? (1 Viewer)

[CaptainHook]

what makes you think orton has such limited potential

 

[moleculo]

Well, fortunately, he is now playing behind a much better offensive line than he had in Chicago, so he shouldn't face that situation nearly as often.From a fantasy perspective, if Orton wins the job and stays healthy, I think there is little doubt he will be above average. Last season, Denver attempted 620 passes. McDaniel's offense attempted 534. Denver's defense will presumably still be weak, so I'll project 550 passing attempts. Last season, Orton averaged 6.4 ypa and had a 3.9% TD percentage and 2.6% interception percentage. Just carrying those numbers over, with 550 attempts, he'd throw for 3520 yards, 21 TDs, and 14 interceptions. But those numbers don't reflect better offensive coaching and playcalling, better OL, and/or better targets. And it uses numbers that were hurt when he played hurt, which we don't know he will have to do this season. I think he could easily throw for 3700 yards and 25 TDs.Now, granted, there are some ifs and suppositions in there, but I think the upside potential is there.

Brilliant post. Amazing value QBs like this are so easy to pick out. (My QBs last year were rodgers and cutler)I find it so funny that the myth of orton's weak arm still remains. It is based on the bears using him as a game manager during his rookie season. When he had one of the best defenses in the league on the other side of the ball. LOL.Orton is my guy this year. Nothing makes me happier than hearing people talk about his weak arm.. "No look you don't understand he's not as good as favre because he doesn't make risky throws off his back foot" LOL this thread is gold.

Orton could be a steal, but if you grab his as your starter, you have balls that could fit in a dump truck. Orton doesn't have a "weak" arm, he is the bottom half of arm stregnth in the league. He is no Tim Couch. LOL at the 25 TD's and 3700 yards.... not many QB's can do that with them being on the team 3+ years, better targets, better coaching (thats for sure) and a better D to keep giving him the ball back. To say Orton can is seriously like asking for a Ferrari for Christmas.The ONLY reason he was named starter NOW is because of McDaniels Ego. If McDaniels played everything right and has proved to us he knows what he is doing, I would have TONS more faith in this move. But since McDaniels hasn't done ANYTHING that makes me think he is playing madden 2008 in his head as he tries to run the team... this is an Ego move. He got Orton in the trade with Cutler. If he started Simms, that trade would look very bad... oh wait it already does LOL! Tooo late.Broncos will definitely be a team I will root against all year long. Just so they can get a real head coach in there and make real decisions.

all of your grandstanding against Orton makes me think that like Kyle Shanahan, you have some sort of unholy mancrush for Chris Simms.

Its not so much man crush on Simms.. I do like Simms I think he could be a very good QB under the right tutelage, Simms has unlimited potential where Orton does not. I already said in multiple posts that Orton may end up being better then Simms on thsi team... I am just a little peeved and dumbfounded as to why you don't let a player who is superior in physical attributes at least get a shot at the starting job. Its not like this team is going to be good on defense, and Orton will not be the "mad bomber" which leads me to believe the Broncos will really suck, not only in real life but in fantasy land too.My disclaimer for all those who assume... I am not saying Simms at QB would be the end all be all, I would just be much more excited for the offense of the Broncos... in the NFL and fantasy.

If Simms is so great, why has he not surfaced elsewhere as a legit NFL calibre starting QB yet? He was ok before the spleen thing in '05, in '06 he couldn't beat out the great Bruce Gradkowski (or was he still hurt in '06?)...where was he in '07? In '08, he couldn't beat a 36 yr old Kerry Collins, a man who hadn't exactly lit the world on fire for years. I'm not trying to say that Orton is the greatest thing since sliced bread; I simply don't understand why you think Simms is heads and shoulders above everyone Orton...for Pete's sake, have you even seen him throw a football since 2006? How do you know that brief spark, four years ago, was legit? Sorry, I just don't see "unlimited potential", based on his track record.

 

[Traders2001]

He will be the starter , great .

He is worthless so wont last more then 5 - 6 weeks as the starter .

 

[Darker Knight]

If Simms is so great, why has he not surfaced elsewhere as a legit NFL calibre starting QB yet? He was ok before the spleen thing in '05, in '06 he couldn't beat out the great Bruce Gradkowski (or was he still hurt in '06?)...where was he in '07? In '08, he couldn't beat a 36 yr old Kerry Collins, a man who hadn't exactly lit the world on fire for years. I'm not trying to say that Orton is the greatest thing since sliced bread; I simply don't understand why you think Simms is heads and shoulders above everyone Orton...for Pete's sake, have you even seen him throw a football since 2006? How do you know that brief spark, four years ago, was legit? Sorry, I just don't see "unlimited potential", based on his track record.

nail on head here

 

[bigums]

If Simms is so great, why has he not surfaced elsewhere as a legit NFL calibre starting QB yet? He was ok before the spleen thing in '05, in '06 he couldn't beat out the great Bruce Gradkowski (or was he still hurt in '06?)...where was he in '07? In '08, he couldn't beat a 36 yr old Kerry Collins, a man who hadn't exactly lit the world on fire for years. I'm not trying to say that Orton is the greatest thing since sliced bread; I simply don't understand why you think Simms is heads and shoulders above everyone Orton...for Pete's sake, have you even seen him throw a football since 2006? How do you know that brief spark, four years ago, was legit? Sorry, I just don't see "unlimited potential", based on his track record.

nail on head here

That both of you used head references is funny. The knock on Simms going all the way back to college is his head. He's been the better physical prospect in almost every situation and has never capitalized. Major Applewhite (whose greatest physical characteristic is moxie) kept him out of the lineup. Athletic giants like Brad Johnson, Brian Griese, Bruce Gradkowski and Kerry Collins kept him out of the lineup. Notice a pattern, here? His dad was a heady leader, but from all accounts Chris got none of those traits. Even during his injury shortened 'breakout' season, he averaged <1 TD and >1TO per game. Not good.Back to Orton, I think he'll be a surprise to a lot of people this season. Maybe last season was an aberration for him, but if it was a sign of his potential, he could be very good in a controlled passing offense behind a VERY good OL.

 

[switz]

He will be the starter , great .He is worthless so wont last more then 5 - 6 weeks as the starter .

Who do you think takes the job from him? Simms or Ratliff? I don't see either one being anything close to starter material.

 

[Max Power]

Orton is as Orton does.

I'm liking Simms at this point

 

[Jack Burton]

Orton looked impossibly bad on those picks .

If I was a Bronco fan I would want McD gone post haste.

 

[Mainevent]

KC fan =

I like Denver's new coaching staff.

Orton 3/3 on his first 3 drives... really outdid all my expectations.

 

[moleculo]

Well, fortunately, he is now playing behind a much better offensive line than he had in Chicago, so he shouldn't face that situation nearly as often.From a fantasy perspective, if Orton wins the job and stays healthy, I think there is little doubt he will be above average. Last season, Denver attempted 620 passes. McDaniel's offense attempted 534. Denver's defense will presumably still be weak, so I'll project 550 passing attempts. Last season, Orton averaged 6.4 ypa and had a 3.9% TD percentage and 2.6% interception percentage. Just carrying those numbers over, with 550 attempts, he'd throw for 3520 yards, 21 TDs, and 14 interceptions. But those numbers don't reflect better offensive coaching and playcalling, better OL, and/or better targets. And it uses numbers that were hurt when he played hurt, which we don't know he will have to do this season. I think he could easily throw for 3700 yards and 25 TDs.Now, granted, there are some ifs and suppositions in there, but I think the upside potential is there.

Brilliant post. Amazing value QBs like this are so easy to pick out. (My QBs last year were rodgers and cutler)I find it so funny that the myth of orton's weak arm still remains. It is based on the bears using him as a game manager during his rookie season. When he had one of the best defenses in the league on the other side of the ball. LOL.Orton is my guy this year. Nothing makes me happier than hearing people talk about his weak arm.. "No look you don't understand he's not as good as favre because he doesn't make risky throws off his back foot" LOL this thread is gold.

Orton could be a steal, but if you grab his as your starter, you have balls that could fit in a dump truck. Orton doesn't have a "weak" arm, he is the bottom half of arm stregnth in the league. He is no Tim Couch. LOL at the 25 TD's and 3700 yards.... not many QB's can do that with them being on the team 3+ years, better targets, better coaching (thats for sure) and a better D to keep giving him the ball back. To say Orton can is seriously like asking for a Ferrari for Christmas.The ONLY reason he was named starter NOW is because of McDaniels Ego. If McDaniels played everything right and has proved to us he knows what he is doing, I would have TONS more faith in this move. But since McDaniels hasn't done ANYTHING that makes me think he is playing madden 2008 in his head as he tries to run the team... this is an Ego move. He got Orton in the trade with Cutler. If he started Simms, that trade would look very bad... oh wait it already does LOL! Tooo late.Broncos will definitely be a team I will root against all year long. Just so they can get a real head coach in there and make real decisions.

all of your grandstanding against Orton makes me think that like Kyle Shanahan, you have some sort of unholy mancrush for Chris Simms.

Its not so much man crush on Simms.. I do like Simms I think he could be a very good QB under the right tutelage, Simms has unlimited potential where Orton does not. I already said in multiple posts that Orton may end up being better then Simms on thsi team... I am just a little peeved and dumbfounded as to why you don't let a player who is superior in physical attributes at least get a shot at the starting job. Its not like this team is going to be good on defense, and Orton will not be the "mad bomber" which leads me to believe the Broncos will really suck, not only in real life but in fantasy land too.My disclaimer for all those who assume... I am not saying Simms at QB would be the end all be all, I would just be much more excited for the offense of the Broncos... in the NFL and fantasy.

I'm starting to come around.

 

[Gargoylez]

I realize this is pre season, but Orton looked like garbage and Simms threw the ball better then anyone else on the field in that game....

Simms out performed him BADLY today.

What is going to be the "cause" of Ortons horrid day? 49ers do not have a good defense... so what was the reason Orton looked terrible?

 

[The Jacket]

Dr. Malo: Stronger arm than Brady and Manning; should "easily" eclipse 3500 yards, 20 TDs and with only 10 INTs.

Hey, Dr. Malo?

 

[Banger]

This is exactly why you don't trade a franchise QB even if he's a baby. Now Orton/Simms will be like Grossman/Orton...one bad game/half the fans will be calling for the other but hey they got some draft picks...

 

[Darker Knight]

if you take out his 3 picks...he looked pretty good....

 

[Banger]

if you take out his 3 picks...he looked pretty good....

 

[Dreamer]

If the WR comes back for the ball, the first pick is a TD.

 

[DoubleG]

If the WR comes back for the ball, the first pick is a TD.

Appropriate user name.This is almost as good a post as the "if you take away the 3 picks..." logic.Just waiting for Switz to weigh in on this thread now...

 

[Dreamer]

If the WR comes back for the ball, the first pick is a TD.

Appropriate user name.This is almost as good a post as the "if you take away the 3 picks..." logic.Just waiting for Switz to weigh in on this thread now...

Not defending him by any means, the other 2 picks were terrible. But he didn't get any help on the first one. A little effort and that's a TD. Just throwing that out there. Much like Orton last night.

 

[switz]

If the WR comes back for the ball, the first pick is a TD.

Appropriate user name.This is almost as good a post as the "if you take away the 3 picks..." logic.Just waiting for Switz to weigh in on this thread now...

I don't have anything to weigh in on. I didn't see the game, and you really can't base anything on stats from a QBs first preseason game with a new team. Had I seen the game I'd probably have an opinion. I know this, the people down on Orton will view the picks as evidence he sucks. The people high on Orton will discount the picks entirely due to it being preseason, and the first game with a new team. I think it's somewhere in the middle. I think anyone with a brain knows that basing anything on Simms performance against scrubs is foolish.Orton is the starter, it was s preseason game. I'm going to try to catch the next one if I can get it online. But I don't think McD is going to make a QB change until we're into the season a bit.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble.

I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

 

[Routilla]

Orton = the suck.

 

[PatsWillWin]

If the WR comes back for the ball, the first pick is a TD.

Appropriate user name.This is almost as good a post as the "if you take away the 3 picks..." logic.

Just waiting for Switz to weigh in on this thread now...

I don't have anything to weigh in on. I didn't see the game, and you really can't base anything on stats from a QBs first preseason game with a new team. Had I seen the game I'd probably have an opinion. I know this, the people down on Orton will view the picks as evidence he sucks. The people high on Orton will discount the picks entirely due to it being preseason, and the first game with a new team. I think it's somewhere in the middle. I think anyone with a brain knows that basing anything on Simms performance against scrubs is foolish.

Orton is the starter, it was s preseason game. I'm going to try to catch the next one if I can get it online. But I don't think McD is going to make a QB change until we're into the season a bit.

Not one person has done this. The 2nd and 3rd INT's transcend such excuses because of how inexcusably terrible they were, and have left even the most ardent Ortonite (who actually watched the game) stunned in what I can only guess is a terrifying combination of shock and nausea.

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

Consensus FBG staff rankings have Orton at QB17. 6 out of 15 staffers have him between 11 and 15. Dodds has him at QB15. There is a 10 point difference in Dodds' projections between Orton and the 20th QB.I certainly don't think Orton should be drafted as a QB1, but he's not being drafted there, for the most part. The Denver QB might have value, considering the receiving talent and bad defense. Look at what Tyler friggin Thigpen did last year in a lesser situation in effectively 13 games. QB12. What was his upside? Orton's ranking takes into consideration bust potential and situational upside. If he loses the job, the then-current Denver starter will be ranked in the mid-late teens. Bad NFL QBs aren't necessarily bad fantasy QBs.As far as Garrard is concerned I don't understand your issue at all. He finished #11 last year and #16 the year before IN ONLY 12 GAMES. The Oline should be better, the WRs are not worse and may be better.... FBGs has him ranked between QB8 and QB19, with an average of QB12.9. Dodds has him at QB13. Where is this crazy hype? Ranking him below where he has finished previously is not hype. Garrard is a solid fantasy QB and is ranked appropriately, imo.

 

[smackthefirst]

I was higher on Orton going into that preseason game than I am now, that's for sure. I play in a lot of 2QB leagues so finding QBs in the middle of the pack with potential is always a daunting task. While I don't think Orton is a great QB by any stretch, I agree with Lott's point that it was more the situation in Denver leading me to liking their QB and not as much the talent of Orton himself.

But that game changed that and yes I realize it was preseason and it was his first time on the field in a game situation with his new team, but he was down right terrible last night. Even without the interceptions, Orton just didn't impress me with any of the little things he did. And this is the second time as Orton didn't do much to impress the fans in the open scrimmage Denver had either. Even with the situation in Denver being one that I think lends itself favorably to the QB's fantasy production, I'm finding it harder and harder to have enough faith in Orton to draft him.

Hopefully he turns it around the next preseason game and shows what I saw at the start of last season; but if he keeps this up, the QB controversy will start gaining more steam and we've all seen how Orton's performances suffer when there's a QB controversy brewing.

 

[Cookiemonster]

Anybody think it would have taken Simms as long to beat out Grossman?

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

I picked Simms up this offseason as part of my "throw enough crap against the wall and see what sticks" approach to fining a b/u QB in a dynasty league. I had Warner and nobody else. I picked up Simms, Leftwich, both San Fran QBs. I've since acquired Leinart and Cassel, but am holding out hope that Simms pulls the upset.

We'll see.

 

[Jason Wood]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

MOP, I'm with you on Orton being overranked, but Garrard? You know that even last year he was QB11, right? This year he's got a much better offensive line, and a better WR corps. What's the problem with projecting him QB14 (the current consensus ranking?)

 

[Jason Wood]

McDaniels has no choice but to stick by Orton right now and hope that he plays better with the 1st next week. To reverse himself so quickly would really send a bad signal. Now if Orton is ineffective again next week? Then I think you can figure Simms to at least get a shot with the 1s in the 3rd preseason game.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

Consensus FBG staff rankings have Orton at QB17. 6 out of 15 staffers have him between 11 and 15. Dodds has him at QB15. There is a 10 point difference in Dodds' projections between Orton and the 20th QB.I certainly don't think Orton should be drafted as a QB1, but he's not being drafted there, for the most part. The Denver QB might have value, considering the receiving talent and bad defense. Look at what Tyler friggin Thigpen did last year in a lesser situation in effectively 13 games. QB12. What was his upside? Orton's ranking takes into consideration bust potential and situational upside. If he loses the job, the then-current Denver starter will be ranked in the mid-late teens. Bad NFL QBs aren't necessarily bad fantasy QBs.As far as Garrard is concerned I don't understand your issue at all. He finished #11 last year and #16 the year before IN ONLY 12 GAMES. The Oline should be better, the WRs are not worse and may be better.... FBGs has him ranked between QB8 and QB19, with an average of QB12.9. Dodds has him at QB13. Where is this crazy hype? Ranking him below where he has finished previously is not hype. Garrard is a solid fantasy QB and is ranked appropriately, imo.

In 13 out of 16 games last season David Garrard threw for 1 or 0 TDs each week....he never threw 3+ in any games...where is the upside vs Carson Palmer (RANKED 17th!!!) who is projected fairly close and has 34 career games of 2+ TDs thrown and is only about 30 years olds, plays on a team that will be behind a lot, has 3 legitimate weapons at WR...seriously?

 

[BoulderBob]

You can beat Orton by collapsing the pocket on him. Do that and he will dump it off, or take the sack.

Well, fortunately, he is now playing behind a much better offensive line than he had in Chicago, so he shouldn't face that situation nearly as often.From a fantasy perspective, if Orton wins the job and stays healthy, I think there is little doubt he will be above average. Last season, Denver attempted 620 passes. McDaniel's offense attempted 534. Denver's defense will presumably still be weak, so I'll project 550 passing attempts. Last season, Orton averaged 6.4 ypa and had a 3.9% TD percentage and 2.6% interception percentage. Just carrying those numbers over, with 550 attempts, he'd throw for 3520 yards, 21 TDs, and 14 interceptions. But those numbers don't reflect better offensive coaching and playcalling, better OL, and/or better targets. And it uses numbers that were hurt when he played hurt, which we don't know he will have to do this season. I think he could easily throw for 3700 yards and 25 TDs.Now, granted, there are some ifs and suppositions in there, but I think the upside potential is there.

Brilliant post. Amazing value QBs like this are so easy to pick out. (My QBs last year were rodgers and cutler)I find it so funny that the myth of orton's weak arm still remains. It is based on the bears using him as a game manager during his rookie season. When he had one of the best defenses in the league on the other side of the ball. LOL.Orton is my guy this year. Nothing makes me happier than hearing people talk about his weak arm.. "No look you don't understand he's not as good as favre because he doesn't make risky throws off his back foot" LOL this thread is gold.

It's not that he has a weak arm, it's that he can't hit the broad-side of a barn if it's more than 15 yards away from him. McD would be wise to see if Chris Simms has matured since 2006...

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

MOP, I'm with you on Orton being overranked, but Garrard? You know that even last year he was QB11, right? This year he's got a much better offensive line, and a better WR corps. What's the problem with projecting him QB14 (the current consensus ranking?)

Jason, I hear what you are saying but fnd me a game where Garrard is the difference? It's great you can get him later, it's nice his year end numbers are top12...but much like I argued against Clinton Portis 2 seasons ago that while he was top10 his impact was minimal many weeks and he didn't live up to his 1st round selection, many in here fought me tooth and nail.If you take Garrard as your QB1, you would have to be extrmely stacked at other positions IMHO to make a real push towards the championship in your league. Garrard wasn't anchoring any championship teams I was a part of or any leagues I saw him in. I'll bet a good amount of money that Palmer far exceeds that 17 ranking over Garrard at #13. It's painful, not a lot want to talk about it but its a handful of players that make the difference. It's a handful of plays that decide most football games and FF is not much different. It was Turner in the 4th, DeAngelo in the 8th(or later), Warner, Calvin in the 4th, those were a few players that made the difference last year and carried teams to championships...I don't see David Garrard ever being that guy.

 

[gianmarco]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

Consensus FBG staff rankings have Orton at QB17. 6 out of 15 staffers have him between 11 and 15. Dodds has him at QB15. There is a 10 point difference in Dodds' projections between Orton and the 20th QB.I certainly don't think Orton should be drafted as a QB1, but he's not being drafted there, for the most part. The Denver QB might have value, considering the receiving talent and bad defense. Look at what Tyler friggin Thigpen did last year in a lesser situation in effectively 13 games. QB12. What was his upside? Orton's ranking takes into consideration bust potential and situational upside. If he loses the job, the then-current Denver starter will be ranked in the mid-late teens. Bad NFL QBs aren't necessarily bad fantasy QBs.As far as Garrard is concerned I don't understand your issue at all. He finished #11 last year and #16 the year before IN ONLY 12 GAMES. The Oline should be better, the WRs are not worse and may be better.... FBGs has him ranked between QB8 and QB19, with an average of QB12.9. Dodds has him at QB13. Where is this crazy hype? Ranking him below where he has finished previously is not hype. Garrard is a solid fantasy QB and is ranked appropriately, imo.

In 13 out of 16 games last season David Garrard threw for 1 or 0 TDs each week....he never threw 3+ in any games...where is the upside vs Carson Palmer (RANKED 17th!!!) who is projected fairly close and has 34 career games of 2+ TDs thrown and is only about 30 years olds, plays on a team that will be behind a lot, has 3 legitimate weapons at WR...seriously?

Go back to 2007 and he ended the year with 5 of the last 6 games with 2+ TDs. The guy consistently scores 18-20 fantasy pts/week. Sure, he doesn't have the upside of a Peyton Manning or Carson Palmer or Rodgers to throw for 400 yds and 4 TDs in a game. But there is also value to consistency. Garrard rarely put up stinkers, particularly back in 2007. Last year, despite a completely decimated O-line and a dearth of WR's to throw to, he still ended up QB11. Again, not everyone has to have upside to have value. A guy like Welker isn't going to throw up many 150+ yd games or 3 TD games. That doesn't mean he doesn't have good value. A guy like Rudi Johnson rarely put up LT like games. But there was value in the consistency he brought week to week and year to year. That's what Garrard's value is. He's an ideal backup. He's cheap. He won't bomb when you plug him in. And if he end up having to rely on him as a QB1, he will consistently get you that 18-20 pts on a weekly basis. He's not gonna throw up many 30 pt games like some of the elite QBs, but he's also not gonna bomb and put up many stinkers. There's value to that. A big reason is his contribution to the running game. Now, you add improved WR's, improved (and healthy) O-line, and a continued elite running game and he's about as safe a pick as you can make. And it costs you pennies on the dollar. In a recent startup draft this year, I got him at QB19. That was higher than I had seen in other drafts (QB22 or later). I simply don't see any better QB value this year. He doesn't have to win you a championship single-handedly to have good value. And he's being hyped because his cost is well below what his production is. How is that over-hyping?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

MOP, I'm with you on Orton being overranked, but Garrard? You know that even last year he was QB11, right? This year he's got a much better offensive line, and a better WR corps. What's the problem with projecting him QB14 (the current consensus ranking?)

Jason, I hear what you are saying but fnd me a game where Garrard is the difference? It's great you can get him later, it's nice his year end numbers are top12...but much like I argued against Clinton Portis 2 seasons ago that while he was top10 his impact was minimal many weeks and he didn't live up to his 1st round selection, many in here fought me tooth and nail.If you take Garrard as your QB1, you would have to be extrmely stacked at other positions IMHO to make a real push towards the championship in your league. Garrard wasn't anchoring any championship teams I was a part of or any leagues I saw him in. I'll bet a good amount of money that Palmer far exceeds that 17 ranking over Garrard at #13. It's painful, not a lot want to talk about it but its a handful of players that make the difference. It's a handful of plays that decide most football games and FF is not much different. It was Turner in the 4th, DeAngelo in the 8th(or later), Warner, Calvin in the 4th, those were a few players that made the difference last year and carried teams to championships...I don't see David Garrard ever being that guy.

AGreed MOP, most specifically on the Garrard thing, and the prefect draft article says target him too, not good IMO.

 

[Jason Wood]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

MOP, I'm with you on Orton being overranked, but Garrard? You know that even last year he was QB11, right? This year he's got a much better offensive line, and a better WR corps. What's the problem with projecting him QB14 (the current consensus ranking?)

Jason, I hear what you are saying but fnd me a game where Garrard is the difference? It's great you can get him later, it's nice his year end numbers are top12...but much like I argued against Clinton Portis 2 seasons ago that while he was top10 his impact was minimal many weeks and he didn't live up to his 1st round selection, many in here fought me tooth and nail.If you take Garrard as your QB1, you would have to be extrmely stacked at other positions IMHO to make a real push towards the championship in your league. Garrard wasn't anchoring any championship teams I was a part of or any leagues I saw him in. I'll bet a good amount of money that Palmer far exceeds that 17 ranking over Garrard at #13. It's painful, not a lot want to talk about it but its a handful of players that make the difference. It's a handful of plays that decide most football games and FF is not much different. It was Turner in the 4th, DeAngelo in the 8th(or later), Warner, Calvin in the 4th, those were a few players that made the difference last year and carried teams to championships...I don't see David Garrard ever being that guy.

But any QB that finished QB10 or QB11 or QB12 wasn't a good every week starter. That meant you had one of the worst starters on average each week. I view Garrard as a great QB2 this year, someone who could keep your team contending in byes and in an injury situation. To mean, that's what ranking a QB 12th means.

 

[gianmarco]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble.

I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

MOP, I'm with you on Orton being overranked, but Garrard? You know that even last year he was QB11, right? This year he's got a much better offensive line, and a better WR corps. What's the problem with projecting him QB14 (the current consensus ranking?)

Jason, I hear what you are saying but fnd me a game where Garrard is the difference? It's great you can get him later, it's nice his year end numbers are top12...but much like I argued against Clinton Portis 2 seasons ago that while he was top10 his impact was minimal many weeks and he didn't live up to his 1st round selection, many in here fought me tooth and nail.If you take Garrard as your QB1, you would have to be extrmely stacked at other positions IMHO to make a real push towards the championship in your league. Garrard wasn't anchoring any championship teams I was a part of or any leagues I saw him in.

I'll bet a good amount of money that Palmer far exceeds that 17 ranking over Garrard at #13.

It's painful, not a lot want to talk about it but its a handful of players that make the difference. It's a handful of plays that decide most football games and FF is not much different. It was Turner in the 4th, DeAngelo in the 8th(or later), Warner, Calvin in the 4th, those were a few players that made the difference last year and carried teams to championships...I don't see David Garrard ever being that guy.

So, in other words, with the exception of these handful of guys, no one else has value? We shouldn't concentrate or talk about anyone other than the elite difference makers? I could buy what you're selling if people are trying to convince others to take Garrard in the top 10 and are advocating for him to be a top QB1. I have yet to see that claim by ANYONE. That doesn't mean he can't help a fantasy team. Every year, QB's are lost. Guys who owned Romo last year didn't skip a beat if they had Garrard backing him up. Those that backed Brady up last year with Garrard weren't constantly shuffling between JT O'Sullivan to Gus Frerotte to Daunte Culpepper. There is value to that. Even if it's not elite player value. Not everyone can be elite. That's the whole point and definition of the word. Elite players make the difference but they aren't the only part to success. There were Calvin and DeAngelo owners that didn't win. For some it was because they had Palmer as their starter and got stuck starting Trent Edwards instead.

 

[gianmarco]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

MOP, I'm with you on Orton being overranked, but Garrard? You know that even last year he was QB11, right? This year he's got a much better offensive line, and a better WR corps. What's the problem with projecting him QB14 (the current consensus ranking?)

Jason, I hear what you are saying but fnd me a game where Garrard is the difference? It's great you can get him later, it's nice his year end numbers are top12...but much like I argued against Clinton Portis 2 seasons ago that while he was top10 his impact was minimal many weeks and he didn't live up to his 1st round selection, many in here fought me tooth and nail.If you take Garrard as your QB1, you would have to be extrmely stacked at other positions IMHO to make a real push towards the championship in your league. Garrard wasn't anchoring any championship teams I was a part of or any leagues I saw him in. I'll bet a good amount of money that Palmer far exceeds that 17 ranking over Garrard at #13. It's painful, not a lot want to talk about it but its a handful of players that make the difference. It's a handful of plays that decide most football games and FF is not much different. It was Turner in the 4th, DeAngelo in the 8th(or later), Warner, Calvin in the 4th, those were a few players that made the difference last year and carried teams to championships...I don't see David Garrard ever being that guy.

AGreed MOP, most specifically on the Garrard thing, and the prefect draft article says target him too, not good IMO.

Target him at an ADP of 120. How is that "not good"? Are there lots more worthwhile choices that late in the draft that are going to win your season for you?

 

[Routilla]

Garrard is not going to help your FF team win a title. He may help you win a game or two but he will not match other top QBs on very many weeks. As another poster said, the rest of your team had better be stacked if he's your QB1.

Concerning Orton or INTon as I have seen already, I know the coach has to stand by him right now. I did not see any of his plays and caught Simms for the last 2 possessions. I will certainly be watching next week since I snagged Simms off of the WW last night.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

MOP, I'm with you on Orton being overranked, but Garrard? You know that even last year he was QB11, right? This year he's got a much better offensive line, and a better WR corps. What's the problem with projecting him QB14 (the current consensus ranking?)

Jason, I hear what you are saying but fnd me a game where Garrard is the difference? It's great you can get him later, it's nice his year end numbers are top12...but much like I argued against Clinton Portis 2 seasons ago that while he was top10 his impact was minimal many weeks and he didn't live up to his 1st round selection, many in here fought me tooth and nail.If you take Garrard as your QB1, you would have to be extrmely stacked at other positions IMHO to make a real push towards the championship in your league. Garrard wasn't anchoring any championship teams I was a part of or any leagues I saw him in. I'll bet a good amount of money that Palmer far exceeds that 17 ranking over Garrard at #13. It's painful, not a lot want to talk about it but its a handful of players that make the difference. It's a handful of plays that decide most football games and FF is not much different. It was Turner in the 4th, DeAngelo in the 8th(or later), Warner, Calvin in the 4th, those were a few players that made the difference last year and carried teams to championships...I don't see David Garrard ever being that guy.

But any QB that finished QB10 or QB11 or QB12 wasn't a good every week starter. That meant you had one of the worst starters on average each week. I view Garrard as a great QB2 this year, someone who could keep your team contending in byes and in an injury situation. To mean, that's what ranking a QB 12th means.

Point taken Jason

 

[Lott's Fingertip]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

Consensus FBG staff rankings have Orton at QB17. 6 out of 15 staffers have him between 11 and 15. Dodds has him at QB15. There is a 10 point difference in Dodds' projections between Orton and the 20th QB.I certainly don't think Orton should be drafted as a QB1, but he's not being drafted there, for the most part. The Denver QB might have value, considering the receiving talent and bad defense. Look at what Tyler friggin Thigpen did last year in a lesser situation in effectively 13 games. QB12. What was his upside? Orton's ranking takes into consideration bust potential and situational upside. If he loses the job, the then-current Denver starter will be ranked in the mid-late teens. Bad NFL QBs aren't necessarily bad fantasy QBs.As far as Garrard is concerned I don't understand your issue at all. He finished #11 last year and #16 the year before IN ONLY 12 GAMES. The Oline should be better, the WRs are not worse and may be better.... FBGs has him ranked between QB8 and QB19, with an average of QB12.9. Dodds has him at QB13. Where is this crazy hype? Ranking him below where he has finished previously is not hype. Garrard is a solid fantasy QB and is ranked appropriately, imo.

In 13 out of 16 games last season David Garrard threw for 1 or 0 TDs each week....he never threw 3+ in any games...where is the upside vs Carson Palmer (RANKED 17th!!!) who is projected fairly close and has 34 career games of 2+ TDs thrown and is only about 30 years olds, plays on a team that will be behind a lot, has 3 legitimate weapons at WR...seriously?

Palmer should be ranked ahead of Garrard, but that is not an indictment of Garrard. Only Dodds has Palmer ranked that low, and I would bet that it is because Palmer needs to show his health before Dodds moves him up.Garrard also runs more than average, and including those TDs he had 5 multiple-TD games. Most QBs run for less than 100 yards in the year... Garrard averages 20 per game. That's an extra 20+ points, or about 3-5 TDs worth. He had 3600+ yards last year, nothing wrong with that. What other QBs should be ranked ahead of Garrard that aren't already? There are a few that may be capable of more, but there are all kinds of blemishes on these guys. The difference makers you speak of are already ranked in the top 10. If you play in a 12+ team, not everybody will have a top 10 Qb.....

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

Orton finished as QB18 last year while throwing to Devin Hester and Brandon Lloyd while playing under a defensive coach. Now he's throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal under an offensive coach that got Matt Cassel to play like a top-10 fantasy QB and you think ranking him QB15 is illogical?

 

[massraider]

Orton finished as QB18 last year while throwing to Devin Hester and Brandon Lloyd while playing under a defensive coach. Now he's throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal under an offensive coach that got Matt Cassel to play like a top-10 fantasy QB and you think ranking him QB15 is illogical?

This is an assumption I am not willing to make.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

Orton finished as QB18 last year while throwing to Devin Hester and Brandon Lloyd while playing under a defensive coach. Now he's throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal under an offensive coach that got Matt Cassel to play like a top-10 fantasy QB and you think ranking him QB15 is illogical?

You assumption is that Orton will be the starting QB. Any more performances like last night and your assumption may be a faulty one.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Orton finished as QB18 last year while throwing to Devin Hester and Brandon Lloyd while playing under a defensive coach. Now he's throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal under an offensive coach that got Matt Cassel to play like a top-10 fantasy QB and you think ranking him QB15 is illogical?

You assumption is that Orton will be the starting QB. Any more performances like last night and your assumption may be a faulty one.

obviously. Orton has at least been an effective NFL QB since 2005. The Broncos also apparently really wanted him in the trade. I don't think he'll have that short of a hook. It's a rebuilding team anyway.

 

[Jason Wood]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

Orton finished as QB18 last year while throwing to Devin Hester and Brandon Lloyd while playing under a defensive coach. Now he's throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal under an offensive coach that got Matt Cassel to play like a top-10 fantasy QB and you think ranking him QB15 is illogical?

Very little separates QB15 from QB20, it's really a moot argument. I personally think Orton isn't a quality fantasy QB2 though, whatever rank that would indicate to someone.

 

[Avery]

Orton finished as QB18 last year while throwing to Devin Hester and Brandon Lloyd while playing under a defensive coach. Now he's throwing to Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal under an offensive coach that got Matt Cassel to play like a top-10 fantasy QB and you think ranking him QB15 is illogical?

You assumption is that Orton will be the starting QB. Any more performances like last night and your assumption may be a faulty one.

Decision number 3,763 I don't understand from McDaniels.Why announce a starting QB even before he's had any real practices with either of his top two QBs?I don't buy into the argument that it would somehow stabilize the team to know who their QB is going into camp. We're talking about Kyle Orton and Chris Simms here. It's not like he would be declaring an open competition between Brady and O'Connell.By naming Orton the starting QB so early he's backing himself into (yet another) corner where if Orton continues to falter he will either look foolish and stubborn by sticking with him or foolish and indecisive for changing his mind after too quick a decision. If he let the competition play out, he would be fostering an environment where those that perform better get to play.

 

[Verbal Kint]

I've said it before but it bears repeating...the sooner FBG stops pumping up Kyle Orton as a top15 QB in their rankings the better. This and the David Garrard hype is really hurting the credibility in my opinion when it is painfully obvious that Orton is really a back up QB that parades arund like a starter. He has limited upside and you factor in the pressure of the shoes he is trying to fill and the guy is going to crumble. I'm sorry but I watched Orton go in round 7 last night during a draft and I feel like the guy standing atop the Titanic...if you go with Orton as your #1 B, you really are taking a leap of faith and also going completely against logic, IMHO.

MOP, I'm with you on Orton being overranked, but Garrard? You know that even last year he was QB11, right? This year he's got a much better offensive line, and a better WR corps. What's the problem with projecting him QB14 (the current consensus ranking?)

Jason, I hear what you are saying but fnd me a game where Garrard is the difference? It's great you can get him later, it's nice his year end numbers are top12...but much like I argued against Clinton Portis 2 seasons ago that while he was top10 his impact was minimal many weeks and he didn't live up to his 1st round selection, many in here fought me tooth and nail.If you take Garrard as your QB1, you would have to be extrmely stacked at other positions IMHO to make a real push towards the championship in your league. Garrard wasn't anchoring any championship teams I was a part of or any leagues I saw him in. I'll bet a good amount of money that Palmer far exceeds that 17 ranking over Garrard at #13. It's painful, not a lot want to talk about it but its a handful of players that make the difference. It's a handful of plays that decide most football games and FF is not much different. It was Turner in the 4th, DeAngelo in the 8th(or later), Warner, Calvin in the 4th, those were a few players that made the difference last year and carried teams to championships...I don't see David Garrard ever being that guy.

No one is saying that the QB11 is that guy. But he's solid enough that you can grab the Turners and the Calvins instead of the Rivers or the Rodgers.

 

[flapgreen]

gl Broncos.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Cutler threw at least 3 or 4 passes tonight that should have been easy interceptions. I guess he sucks too. Bears should probably cut him outright.

 

[Jason Wood]

Cutler threw at least 3 or 4 passes tonight that should have been easy interceptions. I guess he sucks too. Bears should probably cut him outright.

LOL...apples and oranges Rud?Orton has a history of being a below average NFL passer, Cutler quite the opposite. One earns a shorter leash than the other. C'mon now.

 

[Gargoylez]

I watched the game until the starting QB's were unrecognizable... I believe mr. Hanky was at QB at one point.

In one drop back,. Cutler looked good, through the ball with authority and was fair at best. Wasn't expecting much else. But there was two or three throws that baffled me, the hail mary wounded duck throw that McLovin intercepted was one of the worst passes I witnessed this preseason so far. No offense to Hester, he is improving and looks to have great potential... he is no Moss, Owens or Fitz who will battle the CB and out jump people to get a ball. Like one person said in the forums I was in, after Cutler threw that pass, they said "only 3 guys could of caught that, moss, owens and fitz... no one else, definitely not Hester"

As bad as Orton played, Cutler did NOT look much better. THere were at least 2 other throws that could of easily been intercepted.... so all you cutler manlovers and orton bong hitters... both of your QB's... looked poor.