Is Ben Roethlisberger as good as Tom Brady? (3 Viewers)

[cvnpoka]

no just when considering the most likely reasons why he has a skyhigh sack rate.

 

[Choke]

you troll'd this thread.

 

[Bayhawks]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

For those that think playoff wins are a team effort and can't be put on the QB, that's the case for Philip Rivers to be on the same level as Tom Brady, not Ben Roethlisberger. The Chargers haven't beaten the Steelers or the Patriots in the playoffs. If they had, Rivers would be right up there. Rivers has a cannon arm, make good decisions with the ball, a quick release, good pocket presence, and a passion and drive to win. He's got everything you want. His team defense just isn't very good, and his coaches aren't very good. Rivers is turning into Dan Marino out in San Diego. If you put Ben Roethlisberger on the Chargers, there is no way they'd have been as successful as they've been. Rivers carries the Chargers. Put Rivers in a Steelers uniform, with that defense backing him up, and that would scare the hell out of the rest of the league. Rivers' skillset is simply flawless.

Huh, that sounds exactly like Roethlisberger. The only thing that doesn't really apply is the quick release. But since Roethlisberger has almost the exact same completion % and YPA as Rivers, I'd imagine that they'd have been just as successful as they've been with Rivers.

you continue to ignore sacks.

Seeing as you are the first person to mention them in this thread (I believe), how am I "continuing" to ignore them?But, for argument's sake, we could also say I'm also ignoring yards after the catch by his receivers. The QB has some control over a receivers yards after the catch, by putting the ball in a place where the receiver will have the opportunity to run with it, BUT ultimately that stat is more influenced by another player(s). In much the same way, sacks are (usually) more a result of offensive line play, rather than of the QB. Are there times when a QB can avoid a sack by throwing the ball away? Yes, but most times when a QB is sacked, it's because the O-line screwed up, not the QB.

 

[Bayhawks]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

This is just completely and totally false.If you knew anything about Bruce Aryans, you would know that his offense is a vertical-based passing offense. He only runs as much as he does, because it has been mandated to him (by the owners, and, I believe, by Tomlin). His pass plays DO NOT call for a lot of 3 step drops (other than the occasional short-yardage slant or WR screen plays). Most of the time, Roethlisberger is asked to take a 5 or 7 step drop, and wait for deep ins, posts, corners, flys and double move routes (often requiring pump fakes) to develop. When you couple this with the fact that the Steelers O-line hasn't been very good for the past several years (they lost their 2 starting tackles for the season, and on Saturday, at 1 point, they had a 3rd-string tackle playing on 1 side, and an OG playing on the other), you would understand that the pressure Ben is under is almost always a combination of deep drops and poor O-line play. To suggest that the pressure he faces (and escapes from) is "often" his own doing shows your bias and ignorance.

 

[treat88]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

This is just completely and totally false.If you knew anything about Bruce Aryans, you would know that his offense is a vertical-based passing offense. He only runs as much as he does, because it has been mandated to him (by the owners, and, I believe, by Tomlin). His pass plays DO NOT call for a lot of 3 step drops (other than the occasional short-yardage slant or WR screen plays). Most of the time, Roethlisberger is asked to take a 5 or 7 step drop, and wait for deep ins, posts, corners, flys and double move routes (often requiring pump fakes) to develop. When you couple this with the fact that the Steelers O-line hasn't been very good for the past several years (they lost their 2 starting tackles for the season, and on Saturday, at 1 point, they had a 3rd-string tackle playing on 1 side, and an OG playing on the other), you would understand that the pressure Ben is under is almost always a combination of deep drops and poor O-line play. To suggest that the pressure he faces (and escapes from) is "often" his own doing shows your bias and ignorance.

To be fair, even amongst Steeler fans it is well understood about Ben that you take some bad to go along with the excellence.He is inconsistent in getting the ball out on time, even in his 5 and 7 step drops. He likes to wait for his receivers to gain separation before he throws to a spot rather than trusting the timing of the play. He rarely checks down and hates to throw the ball away. There is upside to this style of play but it's got to be recognized that there is a down side as well.The high number of sacks is absolutely multi-factorial but Ben's style is one of those factors.I think criticisms could be leveled at any QB in the discussion, but recognizing those tendencies in no way diminishes their play.In terms of the original question is Ben better than Tom...in some ways yes and in some ways no. They've both got their strengths and weaknesses but on any given day either might be the better QB. Throw in Brees, Rodgers, and Manning and the same could be said about any of them. The rest need to prove something to be mentioned in this class.

 

[Mustang Man]

Big Ben is every bit as good as Brady and I thought that before this last game.

 

[cvnpoka]

Yes, but most times when a QB is sacked, it's because the O-line screwed up, not the QB.

this is a contentious statement. i was under the impression that the opposite is true.

 

[pghrob]

By Len Pasquarelli

The Sports Xchange - Len Pasquarelli is a Senior NFL Writer for The Sports Xchange. He has covered the NFL for 33 years and is a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee. His NFL coverage earned recognition as the winner of the McCann Award for distinguished reporting in 2008.

This is strictly cart-before-the-horse stuff, because Ben Roethlisberger must still divine a way to do something two of his more famous contemporaries could not the past two weeks, and defeat Coach Blowhard and the New York Jets, before meriting an invitation to Super Bowl XLV.

But, just for the sake of argument, let’s say that Roethlisberger emerges victorious on Sunday evening in the AFC championship game. And then, moving the hypothesis forward another giant step, that Roethlisberger exits Cowboys Stadium on the night of Feb. 6 with his hands around a third Vince Lombardi Trophy.

Notwithstanding the unknown degree of his dalliance in Milledgeville, Ga., that earned him a four-game suspension at the outset of this season – and the Hall of Fame by-laws, which arrived by FedEx the other day, reminded that selectors are not to contemplate any such off-field indiscretions, either alleged or proven – does a third Super Bowl victory earn Roethlisberger a bust in the Canton, Ohio, shrine?

Given that Roethlisberger is merely 28 years old, and by even conservative metrics still likely has another seven or so productive seasons to compile his resume, it’s a debate that won’t bubble up until this selector is well into further dotage. The same by-laws dictate, after all, a player must be retired for at least five years until his accomplishments can be considered, and that probably puts us around 2023 or so until any esteemed Hall of Fame board can discuss Roethlisberger’s career.

Even my estimable Hall of Fame colleague and longtime good friend, Ed Bouchette of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the city’s representative on the august HOF board of selectors, won’t have to fret about preparing the presentation argument.

Then again, how much of an argument would it really be?

You wouldn’t have to have Iron City beer flowing through your veins, or have a Terrible Towel atop the mantel, to make a pretty convincing case.

A third Super Bowl title – go ahead, dream a little bit, fellow ‘Burgh natives – would catapult Roethlisberger into elite company.

Very elite, if, indeed, there can be those kinds of super-lofty categories.

After his first Super Bowl victory a year ago, Drew Brees of New Orleans noted that he hoped to add to his championship bounty, but acknowledged: “I’m not sure that anything will ever top this.” Imagine winning three of the things. It never gets old and, to the contrary, it makes your memory and your legacy forever young.

Not counting the late George Blanda, who was relegated to beloved clutch kicker late in his career – and who many fans forget once threw a football, not booted it, for a living – there are 17 modern-era quarterbacks in the Hall of Fame. All but six of them own at least one Super Bowl ring. Only three quarterbacks from the Super Bowl Era – Dan Fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, and Warren Moon – never started in the championship game. The 11 modern-day quarterbacks enshrined in Canton, have an aggregate 23 Super Bowl titles.

“It’s certainly not (a prerequisite), but it kind of validates you,” said Dan Marino, who, ironically, does not have a Super Bowl ring.

Only one quarterback with multiple Super Bowl-winning starts, Jim Plunkett of the Raiders, is not in the Hall of Fame.

Were Roethlisberger to win a third, just two other quarterbacks with strong ties to Western Pennsylvania, Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw, would have more. And isn’t the old football saw that the only statistic that really matters for a quarterback is the number of championships he wins?

The intriguing thing about Roethlisberger, who had to rebuild a whole lot more than just his throwing motion (as a recent newspaper article detailed) during a long and trying offseason, is that despite playing the game’s most conspicuous position, he isn’t even the face of one of the NFL’s most storied franchises. He’d require about another foot’s worth of hair hanging out the back of his helmet to rate that status. Which pretty much pigeonholes him in the same niche Bradshaw once occupied.

And, his statistics aside, Roethlisberger is rarely mentioned with, say, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, as one of the NFL’s great passer. But he has ranked among the top five passers, in terms of quarterback rating, in five of seven seasons. And he already owns twice as many Super Bowl rings as Manning and is just one shy of Brady.

The consensus is that Brady, who hasn’t exactly distinguished himself in postseason play with his playoff performances the past two seasons, could retire now and waltz into the Hall of Fame. But Brady hasn’t won a Super Bowl title since the ‘04 season. And Big Ben could yet claim a third championship in the six seasons since then.

Roethlisberger is only 28, or two years younger than Bradshaw was when he won his third Super Bowl championship. He’s also five years younger than Brady, the presumptive Hall-of-Fame shoo-in. He is 9-2 in the playoffs, two more postseason victories than the combined total of the three other quarterbacks still playing. And as has been well documented by my hometown media in recent days, his teammates believe in him even more than ever at this time of year.

In a recent column by another ‘Burgh-buddy, Ron Cook, Roethlisberger suggested he still has “a lot of fingers left” for more Super Bowl rings. Adding another Super Bowl trinket to the collection, we’re guessing, will pretty much earn Roethlisberger a Hall of Fame bust.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I'm sorry but I can't do it... how the heck can Rivers be in FRONT of Big Ben?!!Playoffs don't mean anything anymore?Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

Because Rivers is a better player than Roethlisberger. They mean something, but not everything. A playoff game is effectively just 1 game. Really don't mean any more than a big play at any other time in the game. Points are points.It does, do you have any proof that Roethlisberger is better than Rivers in TIGHT games, outside of factors that are highly dependent on other players, such as wins, and over a sample that gives it any meaning?

 

[Steelfan7]

Roethlisberger needs to lead the Steelers past the Patriots in the playoffs before he can be considered to be on that level to a lot of people. Even if the Steelers win the Super Bowl this year, they will just say the Steelers needed the Jets to clear a path for them by knocking out New England. And they'll point out the other two rings Ben has weren't won by going through the Patriots, either.

Wait, because the Patriots are no longer good enough to win SBs, Roethlisberger can't be on the same level as Brady? Look at the Steelers playoff runs since Roethlisberger came into the league. They played the Patriots ONE TIME, when Roethlisberger was a rookie. It's not like the Pats have beaten the Steelers 5 times. It's not Roethlisberger's fault that Brady hasn't been able to get the job done the last few years.

Looks to me like Brady is losing on purpose in the division round so he doesn't have to face Ben in the AFCCG. He knows the jig is up, and the news is out.

 

[Steelfan7]

I'm sorry but I can't do it... how the heck can Rivers be in FRONT of Big Ben?!!Playoffs don't mean anything anymore?Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

Because Rivers is a better player than Roethlisberger. They mean something, but not everything. A playoff game is effectively just 1 game. Really don't mean any more than a big play at any other time in the game. Points are points.It does, do you have any proof that Roethlisberger is better than Rivers in TIGHT games, outside of factors that are highly dependent on other players, such as wins, and over a sample that gives it any meaning?

In the NFL careers and legacy are defined in the post season.

 

[12punch]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

This is just completely and totally false.If you knew anything about Bruce Aryans, you would know that his offense is a vertical-based passing offense. He only runs as much as he does, because it has been mandated to him (by the owners, and, I believe, by Tomlin). His pass plays DO NOT call for a lot of 3 step drops (other than the occasional short-yardage slant or WR screen plays). Most of the time, Roethlisberger is asked to take a 5 or 7 step drop, and wait for deep ins, posts, corners, flys and double move routes (often requiring pump fakes) to develop. When you couple this with the fact that the Steelers O-line hasn't been very good for the past several years (they lost their 2 starting tackles for the season, and on Saturday, at 1 point, they had a 3rd-string tackle playing on 1 side, and an OG playing on the other), you would understand that the pressure Ben is under is almost always a combination of deep drops and poor O-line play. To suggest that the pressure he faces (and escapes from) is "often" his own doing shows your bias and ignorance.

you need to explain this to the OP

 

[pghrob]

I'm sorry but I can't do it... how the heck can Rivers be in FRONT of Big Ben?!!

Playoffs don't mean anything anymore?

Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?

Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

Because Rivers is a better player than Roethlisberger. They mean something, but not everything. A playoff game is effectively just 1 game.

Really don't mean any more than a big play at any other time in the game. Points are points.

It does, do you have any proof that Roethlisberger is better than Rivers in TIGHT games, outside of factors that are highly dependent on other players, such as wins, and over a sample that gives it any meaning?

Tough to separate out the isolated impact that a qb has in comeback wins. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts clearly applies. Both Rivers and Roethlisberger have led their teams to come from behind wins.http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...player=RivePh00 - 12 fourth quarter comebacks, 15 game-winning drives

vs.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play...player=RoetBe00 - 19 fourth quarter comebacks, 25 game-winning drives

 

[Tanner9919]

If Big Ben wins this a SB this year (or any year for that matter) , that guarantees him a spot in the HOF, and his postseason record is second to none, better than Brady's if my memory serves me correctly...

Ben will have a better postseason record, and just as many SB titles as Brady, putting him ahead of Brady in the best-ever QB conversations , the ones that include Elway, Montana, etc..

what makes Ben better is he can play to ways - the schoolyard QB, or the pocket passer.either way, the guy simply wins!

 

[David Yudkin]

If Big Ben wins this a SB this year (or any year for that matter) , that guarantees him a spot in the HOF, and his postseason record is second to none, better than Brady's if my memory serves me correctly...

Ben will have a better postseason record, and just as many SB titles as Brady, putting him ahead of Brady in the best-ever QB conversations , the ones that include Elway, Montana, etc..

what makes Ben better is he can play to ways - the schoolyard QB, or the pocket passer.either way, the guy simply wins!

Like Brady, Ben could also see the Steelers slip some while still making the playoffs . . . thus potentially causing more losses and a worse post season record.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

This is just completely and totally false.If you knew anything about Bruce Aryans, you would know that his offense is a vertical-based passing offense. He only runs as much as he does, because it has been mandated to him (by the owners, and, I believe, by Tomlin). His pass plays DO NOT call for a lot of 3 step drops (other than the occasional short-yardage slant or WR screen plays). Most of the time, Roethlisberger is asked to take a 5 or 7 step drop, and wait for deep ins, posts, corners, flys and double move routes (often requiring pump fakes) to develop. When you couple this with the fact that the Steelers O-line hasn't been very good for the past several years (they lost their 2 starting tackles for the season, and on Saturday, at 1 point, they had a 3rd-string tackle playing on 1 side, and an OG playing on the other), you would understand that the pressure Ben is under is almost always a combination of deep drops and poor O-line play. To suggest that the pressure he faces (and escapes from) is "often" his own doing shows your bias and ignorance.

you need to explain this to the OP

 

[Sheriff66]

you troll'd this thread.

You're shocked by this?

 

[shadyridr]

I love watching Big Ben play and I root for him despite him being such a schmuck in real life.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I thought Ghost Rider, as usual, likes to tweak the Steeler fans a little but is always fair with his comments and makes valid points. He and I have disagreed vehemently in the past, but it's always respectful and never resorts to the type of name-calling and "turn on the TV" garbage that sometimes permeates these discussions.

 

[Bayhawks]

Yes, but most times when a QB is sacked, it's because the O-line screwed up, not the QB.

this is a contentious statement. i was under the impression that the opposite is true.

It's not contentious at all. While there are occasions where a QB goes "deer in the headlights" and freezes up, allowing the defense to get to him, it is far more common that the O-line doesn't give him enough time to make the pass(es) the play is designed for.Look at the NE/NYJ game, for an example.Brady's O-line has protected him extremely well this year. 25 sacks, 1.5/game, the 4th best rate this year.Sunday, Brady was sacked 5 times. Did he suddenly become indecisive and start screwing up, for no reason? No, his O-line was getting beat by the Jets defense. They weren't protecting him, and he took more sacks as a result. It's the nature of sacks. They are more affected by O-line play than by QB play.

 

[Clorox]

Hilarious...ESPN has a poll up right now asking who you would rather has at QB in the playoffs: Rodgers or Roethlisberger. Rodgers is winning handily. I love the hate.

 

[Bayhawks]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

This is just completely and totally false.If you knew anything about Bruce Aryans, you would know that his offense is a vertical-based passing offense. He only runs as much as he does, because it has been mandated to him (by the owners, and, I believe, by Tomlin). His pass plays DO NOT call for a lot of 3 step drops (other than the occasional short-yardage slant or WR screen plays). Most of the time, Roethlisberger is asked to take a 5 or 7 step drop, and wait for deep ins, posts, corners, flys and double move routes (often requiring pump fakes) to develop. When you couple this with the fact that the Steelers O-line hasn't been very good for the past several years (they lost their 2 starting tackles for the season, and on Saturday, at 1 point, they had a 3rd-string tackle playing on 1 side, and an OG playing on the other), you would understand that the pressure Ben is under is almost always a combination of deep drops and poor O-line play. To suggest that the pressure he faces (and escapes from) is "often" his own doing shows your bias and ignorance.

To be fair, even amongst Steeler fans it is well understood about Ben that you take some bad to go along with the excellence.He is inconsistent in getting the ball out on time, even in his 5 and 7 step drops. He likes to wait for his receivers to gain separation before he throws to a spot rather than trusting the timing of the play. He rarely checks down and hates to throw the ball away. There is upside to this style of play but it's got to be recognized that there is a down side as well.

The high number of sacks is absolutely multi-factorial but Ben's style is one of those factors.

I think criticisms could be leveled at any QB in the discussion, but recognizing those tendencies in no way diminishes their play.

In terms of the original question is Ben better than Tom...in some ways yes and in some ways no. They've both got their strengths and weaknesses but on any given day either might be the better QB. Throw in Brees, Rodgers, and Manning and the same could be said about any of them. The rest need to prove something to be mentioned in this class.

The bolded, to my knowledge is absolutely true. Roethlisberger feels that he can make a play, and will hold the ball longer than other QBs might. Sacks that occur as a result of this would have to attributed to him. However, more often than not, the Steelers' O-line doesn't hold their protection for as long as the play needs, causing him to make defenders miss or take a sack. This makes up the majority of sacks against Pittsburgh, and the blame for them is more accurately given to the O-line than Roethlsiberger.

 

[cvnpoka]

Yes, but most times when a QB is sacked, it's because the O-line screwed up, not the QB.

this is a contentious statement. i was under the impression that the opposite is true.

It's not contentious at all. While there are occasions where a QB goes "deer in the headlights" and freezes up, allowing the defense to get to him, it is far more common that the O-line doesn't give him enough time to make the pass(es) the play is designed for.Look at the NE/NYJ game, for an example.

Brady's O-line has protected him extremely well this year. 25 sacks, 1.5/game, the 4th best rate this year.

Sunday, Brady was sacked 5 times. Did he suddenly become indecisive and start screwing up, for no reason? No, his O-line was getting beat by the Jets defense. They weren't protecting him, and he took more sacks as a result. It's the nature of sacks. They are more affected by O-line play than by QB play.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-anal...n-sacks-part-ii

My feeling, based on these statistics, is that the quarterback is more important than the line

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=4152

While sacks can be the fault of the offensive line or the accomplishment of the defensive player, the evidence is pretty clear that the quarterback is at least as responsible for his team's sack rate as other passing performance measures that we readily attribute primarily to the quarterback.

well, i think this at least proves there is some disagreement on how the shares of responsibility are distributed with regards to sacks.

 

[az_prof]

By Len PasquarelliThe Sports Xchange - Len Pasquarelli is a Senior NFL Writer for The Sports Xchange. He has covered the NFL for 33 years and is a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee. His NFL coverage earned recognition as the winner of the McCann Award for distinguished reporting in 2008. This is strictly cart-before-the-horse stuff, because Ben Roethlisberger must still divine a way to do something two of his more famous contemporaries could not the past two weeks, and defeat Coach Blowhard and the New York Jets, before meriting an invitation to Super Bowl XLV. But, just for the sake of argument, let’s say that Roethlisberger emerges victorious on Sunday evening in the AFC championship game. And then, moving the hypothesis forward another giant step, that Roethlisberger exits Cowboys Stadium on the night of Feb. 6 with his hands around a third Vince Lombardi Trophy. Notwithstanding the unknown degree of his dalliance in Milledgeville, Ga., that earned him a four-game suspension at the outset of this season – and the Hall of Fame by-laws, which arrived by FedEx the other day, reminded that selectors are not to contemplate any such off-field indiscretions, either alleged or proven – does a third Super Bowl victory earn Roethlisberger a bust in the Canton, Ohio, shrine? Given that Roethlisberger is merely 28 years old, and by even conservative metrics still likely has another seven or so productive seasons to compile his resume, it’s a debate that won’t bubble up until this selector is well into further dotage. The same by-laws dictate, after all, a player must be retired for at least five years until his accomplishments can be considered, and that probably puts us around 2023 or so until any esteemed Hall of Fame board can discuss Roethlisberger’s career. Even my estimable Hall of Fame colleague and longtime good friend, Ed Bouchette of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, the city’s representative on the august HOF board of selectors, won’t have to fret about preparing the presentation argument. Then again, how much of an argument would it really be? You wouldn’t have to have Iron City beer flowing through your veins, or have a Terrible Towel atop the mantel, to make a pretty convincing case. A third Super Bowl title – go ahead, dream a little bit, fellow ‘Burgh natives – would catapult Roethlisberger into elite company. Very elite, if, indeed, there can be those kinds of super-lofty categories. After his first Super Bowl victory a year ago, Drew Brees of New Orleans noted that he hoped to add to his championship bounty, but acknowledged: “I’m not sure that anything will ever top this.” Imagine winning three of the things. It never gets old and, to the contrary, it makes your memory and your legacy forever young. Not counting the late George Blanda, who was relegated to beloved clutch kicker late in his career – and who many fans forget once threw a football, not booted it, for a living – there are 17 modern-era quarterbacks in the Hall of Fame. All but six of them own at least one Super Bowl ring. Only three quarterbacks from the Super Bowl Era – Dan Fouts, Sonny Jurgensen, and Warren Moon – never started in the championship game. The 11 modern-day quarterbacks enshrined in Canton, have an aggregate 23 Super Bowl titles. “It’s certainly not (a prerequisite), but it kind of validates you,” said Dan Marino, who, ironically, does not have a Super Bowl ring. Only one quarterback with multiple Super Bowl-winning starts, Jim Plunkett of the Raiders, is not in the Hall of Fame. Were Roethlisberger to win a third, just two other quarterbacks with strong ties to Western Pennsylvania, Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw, would have more. And isn’t the old football saw that the only statistic that really matters for a quarterback is the number of championships he wins? The intriguing thing about Roethlisberger, who had to rebuild a whole lot more than just his throwing motion (as a recent newspaper article detailed) during a long and trying offseason, is that despite playing the game’s most conspicuous position, he isn’t even the face of one of the NFL’s most storied franchises. He’d require about another foot’s worth of hair hanging out the back of his helmet to rate that status. Which pretty much pigeonholes him in the same niche Bradshaw once occupied. And, his statistics aside, Roethlisberger is rarely mentioned with, say, Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, as one of the NFL’s great passer. But he has ranked among the top five passers, in terms of quarterback rating, in five of seven seasons. And he already owns twice as many Super Bowl rings as Manning and is just one shy of Brady. The consensus is that Brady, who hasn’t exactly distinguished himself in postseason play with his playoff performances the past two seasons, could retire now and waltz into the Hall of Fame. But Brady hasn’t won a Super Bowl title since the ‘04 season. And Big Ben could yet claim a third championship in the six seasons since then. Roethlisberger is only 28, or two years younger than Bradshaw was when he won his third Super Bowl championship. He’s also five years younger than Brady, the presumptive Hall-of-Fame shoo-in. He is 9-2 in the playoffs, two more postseason victories than the combined total of the three other quarterbacks still playing. And as has been well documented by my hometown media in recent days, his teammates believe in him even more than ever at this time of year. In a recent column by another ‘Burgh-buddy, Ron Cook, Roethlisberger suggested he still has “a lot of fingers left” for more Super Bowl rings. Adding another Super Bowl trinket to the collection, we’re guessing, will pretty much earn Roethlisberger a Hall of Fame bust.

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

 

[fred_1_15301]

Hilarious...ESPN has a poll up right now asking who you would rather has at QB in the playoffs: Rodgers or Roethlisberger. Rodgers is winning handily. I love the hate.

I don't think it's hate towards Ben as much as it's respect towards Rodgers. Rodgers has been lights out in every playoff opportunity he's had. I think in a couple years most people will consider Rodgers the best qb in the league.

 

[Road Dogg]

7 pages?

c'mon man

 

[12punch]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

This is just completely and totally false.If you knew anything about Bruce Aryans, you would know that his offense is a vertical-based passing offense. He only runs as much as he does, because it has been mandated to him (by the owners, and, I believe, by Tomlin). His pass plays DO NOT call for a lot of 3 step drops (other than the occasional short-yardage slant or WR screen plays). Most of the time, Roethlisberger is asked to take a 5 or 7 step drop, and wait for deep ins, posts, corners, flys and double move routes (often requiring pump fakes) to develop. When you couple this with the fact that the Steelers O-line hasn't been very good for the past several years (they lost their 2 starting tackles for the season, and on Saturday, at 1 point, they had a 3rd-string tackle playing on 1 side, and an OG playing on the other), you would understand that the pressure Ben is under is almost always a combination of deep drops and poor O-line play. To suggest that the pressure he faces (and escapes from) is "often" his own doing shows your bias and ignorance.

you need to explain this to the OP

About your OC

 

[David Yudkin]

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

While I would tend to agree that if PIT wins another SB, Big Ben will probably be a HOFer, I find it interesting that he would have won three rings and been to the Pro Bowl exactly one time in 7 seasons.QBs with multiple rings:Montana - 4 rings, 8 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pro selectionsBradshaw - 4 rings, 3 Pro Bowls, 1 All-Pro selectionBrady - 3 rings, 6 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pro selectionsAikman - 3 rings, 6 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pro selectionsGriese - 2 rings, 8 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pro selectionsElway - 2 rings, 9 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro selectionsStaubach - 2 rings, 6 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pro selectionsStarr - 2 rings, 4 Pro Bowls, 1 All-Pro selectionRoethlisberger - 2 rings, 1 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro selectionsPlunkett - 2 rings, 0 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pro selectionsSimms - 2 rings (sort of), 2 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pro selections

 

[Copeman]

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

I find it interesting that he would have won three rings and been to the Pro Bowl exactly one time in 7 seasons.

When he has played his career in the same conference as Brady and Manning, it really isn't all that interesting. Throw in your Carson Palmer types every so often and voila. Stats rule in this day and age.

 

[Godsbrother]

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

While I would tend to agree that if PIT wins another SB, Big Ben will probably be a HOFer, I find it interesting that he would have won three rings and been to the Pro Bowl exactly one time in 7 seasons.

The Pro Bowl has become a joke. Vince Young and David Garrard???

 

[David Yudkin]

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

While I would tend to agree that if PIT wins another SB, Big Ben will probably be a HOFer, I find it interesting that he would have won three rings and been to the Pro Bowl exactly one time in 7 seasons.

The Pro Bowl has become a joke. Vince Young and David Garrard???

Which is why I thought it was interesting. Why pick those guys instead of Big Ben (seeing how he could become an apparent lock HOFer in a couple of weeks). It just seems odd that people are raving about him, yet he's been somewhat ignored in the selection process for the annual best-of-the-game exhibition.

 

[switz]

Yes, but most times when a QB is sacked, it's because the O-line screwed up, not the QB.

this is a contentious statement. i was under the impression that the opposite is true.

It's not contentious at all. While there are occasions where a QB goes "deer in the headlights" and freezes up, allowing the defense to get to him, it is far more common that the O-line doesn't give him enough time to make the pass(es) the play is designed for.Look at the NE/NYJ game, for an example.

Brady's O-line has protected him extremely well this year. 25 sacks, 1.5/game, the 4th best rate this year.

Sunday, Brady was sacked 5 times. Did he suddenly become indecisive and start screwing up, for no reason? No, his O-line was getting beat by the Jets defense. They weren't protecting him, and he took more sacks as a result. It's the nature of sacks. They are more affected by O-line play than by QB play.

The answer to your question in bold is yes. Anyone who watched that game (and wasn't a Brady/Pats fan) knows that Brady had happy feet. He wasn't even pressured when he three the INT like two minutes into the game. Stop blaming the OL, which as you posted has been EXTREMELY good all year long. What makes more sense - one player messed up, or five players messed up? Exactly - one player, Brady.

 

[Copeman]

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

While I would tend to agree that if PIT wins another SB, Big Ben will probably be a HOFer, I find it interesting that he would have won three rings and been to the Pro Bowl exactly one time in 7 seasons.

The Pro Bowl has become a joke. Vince Young and David Garrard???

Which is why I thought it was interesting. Why pick those guys instead of Big Ben (seeing how he could become an apparent lock HOFer in a couple of weeks). It just seems odd that people are raving about him, yet he's been somewhat ignored in the selection process for the annual best-of-the-game exhibition.

Those players making the SB can't play in the pro-bowl. And the NFL/referees has it set up already that the Steelers are gonna play in the SB this year. Haven't you heard?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

This is just completely and totally false.If you knew anything about Bruce Aryans, you would know that his offense is a vertical-based passing offense. He only runs as much as he does, because it has been mandated to him (by the owners, and, I believe, by Tomlin). His pass plays DO NOT call for a lot of 3 step drops (other than the occasional short-yardage slant or WR screen plays). Most of the time, Roethlisberger is asked to take a 5 or 7 step drop, and wait for deep ins, posts, corners, flys and double move routes (often requiring pump fakes) to develop. When you couple this with the fact that the Steelers O-line hasn't been very good for the past several years (they lost their 2 starting tackles for the season, and on Saturday, at 1 point, they had a 3rd-string tackle playing on 1 side, and an OG playing on the other), you would understand that the pressure Ben is under is almost always a combination of deep drops and poor O-line play. To suggest that the pressure he faces (and escapes from) is "often" his own doing shows your bias and ignorance.

you need to explain this to the OP

About your OC

I'm well aware of Arians' play calling tendencies. However, as he posted, his pass plays are mitigated to some extent by the philosophy of ownership and coaches. I expect that to continue as long as Tomlin/Rooney are running the show. I'll be surprised if Ben ever has 560 attempts in a season, which is what would be required to be a 35 pass attempts per game season (the low end of what I said I didn't expect), let alone the 570, 580, 600 attempt seasons Brady has had in the past handful of years. I'm not sure why you keep harping on this. We've already shown that career to date, Brady has averaged close to 5 more attempts per game than Roethlisberger. That gap may narrow somewhat in the next few years, but we don't know that for sure. What we do know is that 4.5 attempts per game x 16 games per season x 13-15 seasons in a career adds up to a significant # of yards and TDs on the bottom line.

 

[12punch]

Now brady averages 5 at/game more than ben over 15 seasons?

Stop the fictional excuses.

 

[David Yudkin]

Brady has averaged 32.5 passing attempts per game over his career. Roethlisberger has averaged 28.3.

 

[Bayhawks]

Yes, but most times when a QB is sacked, it's because the O-line screwed up, not the QB.

this is a contentious statement. i was under the impression that the opposite is true.

It's not contentious at all. While there are occasions where a QB goes "deer in the headlights" and freezes up, allowing the defense to get to him, it is far more common that the O-line doesn't give him enough time to make the pass(es) the play is designed for.Look at the NE/NYJ game, for an example.

Brady's O-line has protected him extremely well this year. 25 sacks, 1.5/game, the 4th best rate this year.

Sunday, Brady was sacked 5 times. Did he suddenly become indecisive and start screwing up, for no reason? No, his O-line was getting beat by the Jets defense. They weren't protecting him, and he took more sacks as a result. It's the nature of sacks. They are more affected by O-line play than by QB play.

The answer to your question in bold is yes. Anyone who watched that game (and wasn't a Brady/Pats fan) knows that Brady had happy feet. He wasn't even pressured when he three the INT like two minutes into the game. Stop blaming the OL, which as you posted has been EXTREMELY good all year long. What makes more sense - one player messed up, or five players messed up? Exactly - one player, Brady.

No, the answer is no. When he threw the INT, the Jets broke the O-line, and he scrambled to his right, and threw a pass without setting his feet. That's not his forte, and the ball floated on him. Not because he just screwed up, he was under pressure, and usually he doesn't have to deal with that.Watch the game. He was under pressure ALL GAME. He didn't deal with it well. If you want to call that him messing up, fine, but the FACT is that he wouldn't have messed up if he wasn't constantly under pressure because his O-line had already "messed up."

 

[kyoun1e]

Yes, but most times when a QB is sacked, it's because the O-line screwed up, not the QB.

this is a contentious statement. i was under the impression that the opposite is true.

It's not contentious at all. While there are occasions where a QB goes "deer in the headlights" and freezes up, allowing the defense to get to him, it is far more common that the O-line doesn't give him enough time to make the pass(es) the play is designed for.Look at the NE/NYJ game, for an example.

Brady's O-line has protected him extremely well this year. 25 sacks, 1.5/game, the 4th best rate this year.

Sunday, Brady was sacked 5 times. Did he suddenly become indecisive and start screwing up, for no reason? No, his O-line was getting beat by the Jets defense. They weren't protecting him, and he took more sacks as a result. It's the nature of sacks. They are more affected by O-line play than by QB play.

The answer to your question in bold is yes. Anyone who watched that game (and wasn't a Brady/Pats fan) knows that Brady had happy feet. He wasn't even pressured when he three the INT like two minutes into the game. Stop blaming the OL, which as you posted has been EXTREMELY good all year long. What makes more sense - one player messed up, or five players messed up? Exactly - one player, Brady.

No, the answer is no. When he threw the INT, the Jets broke the O-line, and he scrambled to his right, and threw a pass without setting his feet. That's not his forte, and the ball floated on him. Not because he just screwed up, he was under pressure, and usually he doesn't have to deal with that.Watch the game. He was under pressure ALL GAME. He didn't deal with it well. If you want to call that him messing up, fine, but the FACT is that he wouldn't have messed up if he wasn't constantly under pressure because his O-line had already "messed up."

I think everyone above needs to re-watch this game.If you watched Brady all game it wasn't like he had to get rid of the ball on three step drops. He had plenty of time to the point where he'd progress through all of his receivers...and then START THE PROGRESSION OVER AGAIN.

Coverage sacks. The Jets D were lights out in coverage bottom line. The offensive line can't hold lineman and backers forever.

As for the int, there was no serious pressure. Pace did cause Brady to alter the pass, but as Brady said on WEEI radio, "that's the most conservative call in the playbook." It's a play he usually executes in his sleep. But you know what, HE SCREWED UP.

KY

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

sometimes Yes that is the case but it can also be said that QBs like Peyton and Tom DON'T extend plays and so when protection breaks down immediately they either go into the fetal position (Peyton) or they crumble like Brady did on Sunday.

 

[cvnpoka]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

sometimes Yes that is the case but it can also be said that QBs like Peyton and Tom DON'T extend plays and so when protection breaks down immediately they either go into the fetal position (Peyton) or they crumble like Brady did on Sunday.

peytons ability to make reads and get rid of the ball insanely fast is why his sack rate is consistenly top of the league, despite changes in oline.

 

[David Yudkin]

The Jets lined up in blitz formations but would drop 8 guys into coverage and took away the middle of the field and underneath routes. Since NE usually ran short routes without deep go routes, many times the Pats receivers got to their end points of their routes and had no place else to go. Brady had no one to throw to even with 6 or 7 seconds to throw. With no one open, no movement, and no major changes in playcalling, Brady was doomed. You could tell they were not on the same page, because when plays broke down and guys starting ad libbing, Brady through passes nowhere near where the receivers were going or turning.

The Pats should have had Brady scramble and run by design, run a QB draw up the middle, run RB swing passes in the flat, and run sideline patterns for the receivers. All those would have helped free up the TEs for some looks in the seam and up the middle. But Brady rarely runs anything other than a QB sneak. On passing plays, they also should have overloaded one side of the field and then look for someone away from that part of the field. But they mostly ran balanced formations in the second half and the Jets could just camp out in the middle of the field.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I'm sorry but I can't do it... how the heck can Rivers be in FRONT of Big Ben?!!Playoffs don't mean anything anymore?Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

Because Rivers is a better player than Roethlisberger. They mean something, but not everything. A playoff game is effectively just 1 game. Really don't mean any more than a big play at any other time in the game. Points are points.It does, do you have any proof that Roethlisberger is better than Rivers in TIGHT games, outside of factors that are highly dependent on other players, such as wins, and over a sample that gives it any meaning?

Debatable.They mean everything if you want to be considered elite.It absolutely means more if you make THE play at a crucial time in the game than say the first quarter. How is this a question? Ask Romo how that works... make plays occasionally throughout the game and NOT when the chips are down OR make plays occasionally throughout the game AND when the chips are down. Yes points are points but at certain times in the game the QB HAS to make a play to win or put his team in a position to win the game and while I haven't broken down EVERY game in the regular seasons I HAVE broken down an awful lot of the playoff games and you can tell the difference when you break it down. Example would be Chargers vs. Jets last season when ole Rivers had 2 turnovers in back to back possessions if I'm remembering it correctly.Again... haven't broken down every game but I'm assuming that you also don't have proof to the contrary. As for a sample that gives it any meaning how about we start with the playoffs?

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

Hilarious...ESPN has a poll up right now asking who you would rather has at QB in the playoffs: Rodgers or Roethlisberger. Rodgers is winning handily. I love the hate.

I don't think it's hate towards Ben as much as it's respect towards Rodgers. Rodgers has been lights out in every playoff opportunity he's had. I think in a couple years most people will consider Rodgers the best qb in the league.

Truth... dude is insane and when he puts a few pelts on the wall he will be in that category.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

While I would tend to agree that if PIT wins another SB, Big Ben will probably be a HOFer, I find it interesting that he would have won three rings and been to the Pro Bowl exactly one time in 7 seasons.QBs with multiple rings:Montana - 4 rings, 8 Pro Bowls, 3 All-Pro selectionsBradshaw - 4 rings, 3 Pro Bowls, 1 All-Pro selectionBrady - 3 rings, 6 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pro selectionsAikman - 3 rings, 6 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pro selectionsGriese - 2 rings, 8 Pro Bowls, 2 All-Pro selectionsElway - 2 rings, 9 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro selectionsStaubach - 2 rings, 6 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pro selectionsStarr - 2 rings, 4 Pro Bowls, 1 All-Pro selectionRoethlisberger - 2 rings, 1 Pro Bowl, 0 All-Pro selectionsPlunkett - 2 rings, 0 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pro selectionsSimms - 2 rings (sort of), 2 Pro Bowls, 0 All-Pro selections

Sorry but the Pro Bowl is a joke... David Garrard was a pro-bowler last year.Besides... perception that Tom and Peyton are the greatest QBs of this era leaves little room for a 3rd QB who plays in an offense not designed or pressured to score 30+ pts a game like Philip Rivers or Houston's Matt Schaub.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

the ability to extend a play when everything else breaks down

ben is getting too much credit here when you consider that his indecision is often the reason why this needs to occur.

sometimes Yes that is the case but it can also be said that QBs like Peyton and Tom DON'T extend plays and so when protection breaks down immediately they either go into the fetal position (Peyton) or they crumble like Brady did on Sunday.

peytons ability to make reads and get rid of the ball insanely fast is why his sack rate is consistenly top of the league, despite changes in oline.

yep and his ability to NOT extend plays when his reads are wrong or his WRs are pressured in the playoffs is why he ends up in the fetal position and ultimately out of the playoffs before he should be.

 

[Choke]

Brady has averaged 32.5 passing attempts per game over his career. Roethlisberger has averaged 28.3.

Regular season I show Brady at 32.93 att/game and Ben at 28.28... thats a 14.2% difference per game. Ben has 227 ypg, and Brady has 239.6 per game... thats a 5% difference.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

The Jets lined up in blitz formations but would drop 8 guys into coverage and took away the middle of the field and underneath routes. Since NE usually ran short routes without deep go routes, many times the Pats receivers got to their end points of their routes and had no place else to go. Brady had no one to throw to even with 6 or 7 seconds to throw. With no one open, no movement, and no major changes in playcalling, Brady was doomed. You could tell they were not on the same page, because when plays broke down and guys starting ad libbing, Brady through passes nowhere near where the receivers were going or turning.The Pats should have had Brady scramble and run by design, run a QB draw up the middle, run RB swing passes in the flat, and run sideline patterns for the receivers. All those would have helped free up the TEs for some looks in the seam and up the middle. But Brady rarely runs anything other than a QB sneak. On passing plays, they also should have overloaded one side of the field and then look for someone away from that part of the field. But they mostly ran balanced formations in the second half and the Jets could just camp out in the middle of the field.

This is where I feel Ben and the Steelers will cause a tougher matchup for the Jets... they know how to "ad lib" and they have 3 legitimate deep threats. It should be quite the chess match but ultimately I think that the Steelers D vs. Sanchez will decide the game one way or another.... oh yeah and of course special teams will play a huge factor as well.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I'm sorry but I can't do it... how the heck can Rivers be in FRONT of Big Ben?!!

Playoffs don't mean anything anymore?

Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?

Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

Because Rivers is a better player than Roethlisberger. They mean something, but not everything. A playoff game is effectively just 1 game.

Really don't mean any more than a big play at any other time in the game. Points are points.

It does, do you have any proof that Roethlisberger is better than Rivers in TIGHT games, outside of factors that are highly dependent on other players, such as wins, and over a sample that gives it any meaning?

Debatable.

[1]They mean everything if you want to be considered elite.

[2.]It absolutely means more if you make THE play at a crucial time in the game than say the first quarter. How is this a question? Ask Romo how that works... make plays occasionally throughout the game and NOT when the chips are down OR make plays occasionally throughout the game AND when the chips are down. Yes points are points but at certain times in the game the QB HAS to make a play to win or put his team in a position to win the game and while I haven't broken down EVERY game in the regular seasons I HAVE broken down an awful lot of the playoff games and you can tell the difference when you break it down. Example would be Chargers vs. Jets last season when ole Rivers had 2 turnovers in back to back possessions if I'm remembering it correctly.

[3.]Again... haven't broken down every game but I'm assuming that you also don't have proof to the contrary. As for a sample that gives it any meaning how about we start with the playoffs?

1. Lol at deciding what it means to be elite to fit the argument.2. You wouldn't have to make THE play if you made THE play earlier in the game. The timing doesn't matter too much. It really doesn't matter too much when you put up points, just that you do. Dropping 35 before half and 0 in the 2nd half is same as scoring 35 in the 4th quarter.

3. You really overrate the playoffs vs the regular season.

 

[Choke]

3. You really overrate the playoffs vs the regular season.

Ask Dan Marino. Ask Fran Tarkenton. Ask Dan Fouts.

 

[Steeler]

3. You really overrate the playoffs vs the regular season.

The NFL is about winning Lombardi Trophies so the playoffs should matter more.