Is Ben Roethlisberger as good as Tom Brady? (1 Viewer)

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

I'm sorry but I can't do it... how the heck can Rivers be in FRONT of Big Ben?!!

Playoffs don't mean anything anymore?

Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?

Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

Because Rivers is a better player than Roethlisberger. They mean something, but not everything. A playoff game is effectively just 1 game.

Really don't mean any more than a big play at any other time in the game. Points are points.

It does, do you have any proof that Roethlisberger is better than Rivers in TIGHT games, outside of factors that are highly dependent on other players, such as wins, and over a sample that gives it any meaning?

Debatable.

[1]They mean everything if you want to be considered elite.

[2.]It absolutely means more if you make THE play at a crucial time in the game than say the first quarter. How is this a question? Ask Romo how that works... make plays occasionally throughout the game and NOT when the chips are down OR make plays occasionally throughout the game AND when the chips are down. Yes points are points but at certain times in the game the QB HAS to make a play to win or put his team in a position to win the game and while I haven't broken down EVERY game in the regular seasons I HAVE broken down an awful lot of the playoff games and you can tell the difference when you break it down. Example would be Chargers vs. Jets last season when ole Rivers had 2 turnovers in back to back possessions if I'm remembering it correctly.

[3.]Again... haven't broken down every game but I'm assuming that you also don't have proof to the contrary. As for a sample that gives it any meaning how about we start with the playoffs?

1. Lol at deciding what it means to be elite to fit the argument.2. You wouldn't have to make THE play if you made THE play earlier in the game. The timing doesn't matter too much. It really doesn't matter too much when you put up points, just that you do. Dropping 35 before half and 0 in the 2nd half is same as scoring 35 in the 4th quarter.

3. You really overrate the playoffs vs the regular season.

1.) True I guess everyone is entitled to believe what they think it takes to be elite.

2.) So how come Philip hasn't been able to do that so far in the playoffs? Make the plays early so you don't HAVE to make them late or when things haven't gone his way earlier in the game... how come he hasn't come through?

3.) You really overrate the regular season vs the playoffs... yep you gotta do well during the regular season in order to get to the playoffs but you gotta win in the playoffs to be in this discussion IMO.

 

[az_prof]

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

I find it interesting that he would have won three rings and been to the Pro Bowl exactly one time in 7 seasons.

When he has played his career in the same conference as Brady and Manning, it really isn't all that interesting. Throw in your Carson Palmer types every so often and voila. Stats rule in this day and age.

Right. I put almost no weight in pro bowl and All star elections. They tend to be based as much on previously having won as anything. And being from certain markets tend to help your chances.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

1. Lol at deciding what it means to be elite to fit the argument.

2. You wouldn't have to make THE play if you made THE play earlier in the game. The timing doesn't matter too much. It really doesn't matter too much when you put up points, just that you do. Dropping 35 before half and 0 in the 2nd half is same as scoring 35 in the 4th quarter.

3. You really overrate the playoffs vs the regular season.

1.) True I guess everyone is entitled to believe what they think it takes to be elite.

2.) So how come Philip hasn't been able to do that so far in the playoffs? Make the plays early so you don't HAVE to make them late or when things haven't gone his way earlier in the game... how come he hasn't come through?

3.) You really overrate the regular season vs the playoffs... yep you gotta do well during the regular season in order to get to the playoffs but you gotta win in the playoffs to be in this discussion IMO.

2. I think you are putting too much of the burden of winning on the QB alone. Rivers has played well in the playoffs, obviously not enough to be better than 3-4, but winning is not the sole indicator of how well a QB played. The difference in one playoff game was a Pats WR stripping a Chargers DB of an INT. Tom Brady didn't inspire Troy Brown to cause that fumble. Giving Brady some extra credit for Brown's play seems strange to me.3. I understand your point better if we are discussing who has had the better career. Obviously playoff success is the goal, however, I think the truth of the quality of a player becomes clearer over the course of more games. It seems to me that giving massive weight to the playoffs would be akin to randomly picking 3 weeks of the regular season and deciding all of your fantasy football decisions on that.

 

[ptsteelers]

3. I understand your point better if we are discussing who has had the better career. Obviously playoff success is the goal, however, I think the truth of the quality of a player becomes clearer over the course of more games. It seems to me that giving massive weight to the playoffs would be akin to randomly picking 3 weeks of the regular season and deciding all of your fantasy football decisions on that.

But you are taking the stance that "regular season" games are exactly the same as post season games. Playoff games should be given more weight because they have more weight attached to them. There is no "We will get them next week" thought process once you get to the playoffs. How many times have you heard about players getting sick from being so nervous they puke in week 3 of the regular season? Now how about week 3 of the playoffs?

 

[pghrob]

If Pittsburgh wins another SB this year then short of another major character controversy Ben is a shoe in to HOF.

While I would tend to agree that if PIT wins another SB, Big Ben will probably be a HOFer, I find it interesting that he would have won three rings and been to the Pro Bowl exactly one time in 7 seasons.

The Pro Bowl has become a joke. Vince Young and David Garrard???

Which is why I thought it was interesting. Why pick those guys instead of Big Ben (seeing how he could become an apparent lock HOFer in a couple of weeks). It just seems odd that people are raving about him, yet he's been somewhat ignored in the selection process for the annual best-of-the-game exhibition.

Hence the reason this topic is now 8 pages long.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

My opinion is that Ben is the PERFECT QB for the Steelers. He limits mistakes, can improvise if he has to and knows how to manage close games. The Steelers thrive in close games. They're not built to win a shootout. But they are built to win games that are decided by one score or less. And Ben has done it over and over again. He doesn't put the defense in bad situations and he finds the open guy.

But while Ben is perfect for Pittsburgh, it doesn't make him all that great as an overall QB. If you put him on the Rams I don't think he'd do much better than Bradford (that's a compliment to Bradford as well). But put him in Indianapolis, where the defense hasn't been very intimidating, and I doubt he wins any Super Bowls.

Not taking away anything from his championships or the role he played in winning them. I think that's just a perfect example of the right QB thriving in the right system. The only other team I'd see him having similar success with is Baltimore.

I think Brady would be really good pretty much wherever he went. Same with Manning and Brees and Rivers. I don't feel that way about Ben.

 

[Godsbrother]

I think Brady would be really good pretty much wherever he went. Same with Manning and Brees and Rivers. I don't feel that way about Ben.

Certainly entitled to your opinion and you may be right. But I have seen Brady and Manning under pressure and they just don't do well under the kind of pressure that Ben sees every week.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Now brady averages 5 at/game more than ben over 15 seasons? Stop the fictional excuses.

What's fictional? I said he averages 4.5 more attempts per game (apparently, it's 4.2) Multiply that by 16 games a year times 13-15 years (guesstimated career span of these two guys) and you get a rather large discrepancy in attempts (and yards/TDs as well.) These guys both hover around 7.5 yards per attempt and a 5% TD percentage. 4.2 attempts x 16 games x 15 seasons (let's all hope they both play that long) = over 1,000 pass attempts. That will likely result in Brady finishing with 7,000-8,000 yards and 50-55 TDs more than Roethlisberger over the course of their careers. So, again - no, Ben probably will not equal Brady's career numbers when all is said and done. Thus, Ben's "greatness" as compared to Brady will likely be in the rings, clutch performances, playoff #s, and per pass stats rather than aggregate statistics. And this isn't even factoring in the increased # of hits and rush attempts that Ben accumulates, making the likelihood of him playing and being effective late in his career more tenuous than Brady.What about this is so difficult for you to grasp?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Brady has averaged 32.5 passing attempts per game over his career. Roethlisberger has averaged 28.3.

Regular season I show Brady at 32.93 att/game and Ben at 28.28... thats a 14.2% difference per game. Ben has 227 ypg, and Brady has 239.6 per game... thats a 5% difference.

4.65 attempts per game, rounded off is 5 att/gm, which is exactly what I said earlier. According to 12punch, though, this is a "fictional excuse" as to why Brady will likely finish with a superior stat profile, even though their per pass metrics are very similar. Apparently, his crystal ball shows that Roethlisberger will throw the ball 35+ times a game for the next several years, even though he's never approached that # in the past, and his 32 att/gm this season (a career high) is still below Brady's career average.Facts/logic taking a beating here.

 

[switz]

I think Brady would be really good pretty much wherever he went. Same with Manning and Brees and Rivers. I don't feel that way about Ben.

Certainly entitled to your opinion and you may be right. But I have seen Brady and Manning under pressure and they just don't do well under the kind of pressure that Ben sees every week.

Maybe in the past, but for the last couple years Manning's OL has been terrible and he's seen tons of pressure every week, he just gets the ball out quicker than Ben. I will agree though that earlier in his career Manning did not handle pressure well.Brady on the other hand has always been pretty much untouchable, and against the Jets showed happy feet. It's not characteristic of him IMO, but he rarely gets touched, it's hard to say how he handles pressure for real.

 

[David Yudkin]

Brady has averaged 32.5 passing attempts per game over his career. Roethlisberger has averaged 28.3.

Regular season I show Brady at 32.93 att/game and Ben at 28.28... thats a 14.2% difference per game. Ben has 227 ypg, and Brady has 239.6 per game... thats a 5% difference.

4.65 attempts per game, rounded off is 5 att/gm, which is exactly what I said earlier. According to 12punch, though, this is a "fictional excuse" as to why Brady will likely finish with a superior stat profile, even though their per pass metrics are very similar. Apparently, his crystal ball shows that Roethlisberger will throw the ball 35+ times a game for the next several years, even though he's never approached that # in the past, and his 32 att/gm this season (a career high) is still below Brady's career average.Facts/logic taking a beating here.

Ben became a starter two years younger than Brady did. If both play well into their 30s, that should more than make up for Brady throwing 4 more passes a game by the time both are retired. If Brady plays 5 more seasons throwing the ball at the same rate . . .4.2 extra passes a game * 16 games * 14 seasons = 940 for Brady

475 passes per year * 2 years = 950 for Ben

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Brady has averaged 32.5 passing attempts per game over his career. Roethlisberger has averaged 28.3.

Regular season I show Brady at 32.93 att/game and Ben at 28.28... thats a 14.2% difference per game. Ben has 227 ypg, and Brady has 239.6 per game... thats a 5% difference.

4.65 attempts per game, rounded off is 5 att/gm, which is exactly what I said earlier. According to 12punch, though, this is a "fictional excuse" as to why Brady will likely finish with a superior stat profile, even though their per pass metrics are very similar. Apparently, his crystal ball shows that Roethlisberger will throw the ball 35+ times a game for the next several years, even though he's never approached that # in the past, and his 32 att/gm this season (a career high) is still below Brady's career average.Facts/logic taking a beating here.

Ben became a starter two years younger than Brady did. If both play well into their 30s, that should more than make up for Brady throwing 4 more passes a game by the time both are retired. If Brady plays 5 more seasons throwing the ball at the same rate . . .4.2 extra passes a game * 16 games * 14 seasons = 940 for Brady

475 passes per year * 2 years = 950 for Ben

If Roethlisberger is still starting/playing at the same age at which Brady retires (or even 1-2 years younger), then sure. But I really don't see that happening. I don't think calendar age is as important as the # of seasons played when determining when a QB will reach the end of his effectiveness/career.My entire point is that I believe Brady will end his career with a significant edge in attempts, which will make his career stats more impressive. I don't even really see the point of debating it further, because it's all speculation.

As a side note, even if they do end up playing the same amount of games and/or end up with the same # of attempts, I think Roethlisberger will surpass Brady in yardage, but will probably still fall a bit short in TDs. Brady has a higher TD% than Roethlisberger, primarily because the Patriots throw the ball more in the red zone and inside the 10 and 5 than the Steelers do, and Brady's short-passing, quick strike style is also much more effective in red-zone passing. For his career, Brady averages 4.83 att/gm inside the 20 to Ben's 4.08, 2.21 att/gm inside the 10 to Ben's 1.63, and .95 att/gm inside the 5 to Ben's .73. His TD #s in close are 1.3/gm inside the 20 to Ben's .97, .95/gm inside the 10 to Ben's .58, and .57/gm inside the 5 to Ben's .31.

 

[Fensalk]

Tomlin has openly committed to strengthening the run game. Therefore, the climate in Steeler camp is not conducive to maintaining or beefing up the passing game to maximize Ben's potential. Its possible Ben may have already had his best season statistically if Tomlin follows through with that pledge.

If you want to get excited about Ben's future production, you want to hear Tomlin say we are going to be more aggressive on offense, or we are going to make drafting a WR a high priority in round 1.

 

[12punch]

Now brady averages 5 at/game more than ben over 15 seasons? Stop the fictional excuses.

What's fictional? I said he averages 4.5 more attempts per game (apparently, it's 4.2) Multiply that by 16 games a year times 13-15 years (guesstimated career span of these two guys) and you get a rather large discrepancy in attempts (and yards/TDs as well.) These guys both hover around 7.5 yards per attempt and a 5% TD percentage. 4.2 attempts x 16 games x 15 seasons (let's all hope they both play that long) = over 1,000 pass attempts. That will likely result in Brady finishing with 7,000-8,000 yards and 50-55 TDs more than Roethlisberger over the course of their careers. So, again - no, Ben probably will not equal Brady's career numbers when all is said and done. Thus, Ben's "greatness" as compared to Brady will likely be in the rings, clutch performances, playoff #s, and per pass stats rather than aggregate statistics. And this isn't even factoring in the increased # of hits and rush attempts that Ben accumulates, making the likelihood of him playing and being effective late in his career more tenuous than Brady.What about this is so difficult for you to grasp?

If you're really still going on about this I'd have to ask you the exact same question. I don't know what it is about some people, but if you just started this thread desperate to win some kind of Internet argument you don't need to spam meaningless numbers --- just declare yourself the winner and move on. I promise not to contest it.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Now brady averages 5 at/game more than ben over 15 seasons? Stop the fictional excuses.

What's fictional? I said he averages 4.5 more attempts per game (apparently, it's 4.2) Multiply that by 16 games a year times 13-15 years (guesstimated career span of these two guys) and you get a rather large discrepancy in attempts (and yards/TDs as well.) These guys both hover around 7.5 yards per attempt and a 5% TD percentage. 4.2 attempts x 16 games x 15 seasons (let's all hope they both play that long) = over 1,000 pass attempts. That will likely result in Brady finishing with 7,000-8,000 yards and 50-55 TDs more than Roethlisberger over the course of their careers. So, again - no, Ben probably will not equal Brady's career numbers when all is said and done. Thus, Ben's "greatness" as compared to Brady will likely be in the rings, clutch performances, playoff #s, and per pass stats rather than aggregate statistics. And this isn't even factoring in the increased # of hits and rush attempts that Ben accumulates, making the likelihood of him playing and being effective late in his career more tenuous than Brady.What about this is so difficult for you to grasp?

If you're really still going on about this I'd have to ask you the exact same question. I don't know what it is about some people, but if you just started this thread desperate to win some kind of Internet argument you don't need to spam meaningless numbers --- just declare yourself the winner and move on. I promise not to contest it.

What?Take a look back. The point you seem to have an issue with is that I said that I doubted, whether through a paucity of attempts, a shortened career, or both, that Roethlisberger would ever statistically surpass Tom Brady. You took umbrage with this for some reason, that I don't yet, and likely never will, understand. I've said several times that this is simply my opinion, and that we don't know for sure what will happen. Yet, you continue to dredge it up. I still can't even figure out what you're attempting to argue here. I'm not trying to "win" anything. I'm a Steelers fan saying that Brady is a better QB than Roethlisberger and that Ben will likely never have the attempts nor career longevity to surpass Brady statistically, despite their per attempt stats being very comparable. What part(s) of this do you have an issue with?

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

1. Lol at deciding what it means to be elite to fit the argument.

2. You wouldn't have to make THE play if you made THE play earlier in the game. The timing doesn't matter too much. It really doesn't matter too much when you put up points, just that you do. Dropping 35 before half and 0 in the 2nd half is same as scoring 35 in the 4th quarter.

3. You really overrate the playoffs vs the regular season.

1.) True I guess everyone is entitled to believe what they think it takes to be elite.

2.) So how come Philip hasn't been able to do that so far in the playoffs? Make the plays early so you don't HAVE to make them late or when things haven't gone his way earlier in the game... how come he hasn't come through?

3.) You really overrate the regular season vs the playoffs... yep you gotta do well during the regular season in order to get to the playoffs but you gotta win in the playoffs to be in this discussion IMO.

2. I think you are putting too much of the burden of winning on the QB alone. Rivers has played well in the playoffs, obviously not enough to be better than 3-4, but winning is not the sole indicator of how well a QB played. The difference in one playoff game was a Pats WR stripping a Chargers DB of an INT. Tom Brady didn't inspire Troy Brown to cause that fumble. Giving Brady some extra credit for Brown's play seems strange to me.

3. I understand your point better if we are discussing who has had the better career. Obviously playoff success is the goal, however, I think the truth of the quality of a player becomes clearer over the course of more games. It seems to me that giving massive weight to the playoffs would be akin to randomly picking 3 weeks of the regular season and deciding all of your fantasy football decisions on that.

2.) While I will agree that often we place too much of the burden on the QB its not like other QBs in the playoffs haven't been plagued by the same sort of things that happened to Phil in the game against NE. How about the infamous 4th & 1 that David Garrard converted to beat the Steelers in the playoffs a few years back when the NFL sent a letter later to admit that they missed the obvious holding call when a defender was right in front of Garrard (truth be told it was Tyrone Carter so Garrard prolly woulda ran him over anyway.)

3.) While I can agree with you that the true quality of a player is better judged over a career it is worth pointing out that so far Ben has outplayed Phil in the playoffs and I'm not talking wins. Even with Ben's putrid Super Bowl XL his numbers have been better in the postseason than Phil. I'm not counting yards obviously because Ben has played in more games but I'm talking YPA and Completion % and QB Rating. Since the styles of the teams are vastly different its prolly not as easy as just saying Phil averages more ypg either so I'm just trying to stop an argument from that before it happens.

I think Phil's great and he should be recognized as a top QB but when it comes time to WIN the game or MAKE the play that could ultimately lead his team to victory I trust Ben more. A lot of it is his ability to extend the play when the opposing defense WINS the initial match-ups whether that be at the line or in coverage. Phil has not proven that he can do that with any consistency.

Of note... All 4 QBs in the championship round this year are mobile.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

1. Lol at deciding what it means to be elite to fit the argument.

2. You wouldn't have to make THE play if you made THE play earlier in the game. The timing doesn't matter too much. It really doesn't matter too much when you put up points, just that you do. Dropping 35 before half and 0 in the 2nd half is same as scoring 35 in the 4th quarter.

3. You really overrate the playoffs vs the regular season.

1.) True I guess everyone is entitled to believe what they think it takes to be elite.

2.) So how come Philip hasn't been able to do that so far in the playoffs? Make the plays early so you don't HAVE to make them late or when things haven't gone his way earlier in the game... how come he hasn't come through?

3.) You really overrate the regular season vs the playoffs... yep you gotta do well during the regular season in order to get to the playoffs but you gotta win in the playoffs to be in this discussion IMO.

2. I think you are putting too much of the burden of winning on the QB alone. Rivers has played well in the playoffs, obviously not enough to be better than 3-4, but winning is not the sole indicator of how well a QB played. The difference in one playoff game was a Pats WR stripping a Chargers DB of an INT. Tom Brady didn't inspire Troy Brown to cause that fumble. Giving Brady some extra credit for Brown's play seems strange to me.

3. I understand your point better if we are discussing who has had the better career. Obviously playoff success is the goal, however, I think the truth of the quality of a player becomes clearer over the course of more games. It seems to me that giving massive weight to the playoffs would be akin to randomly picking 3 weeks of the regular season and deciding all of your fantasy football decisions on that.

2.) While I will agree that often we place too much of the burden on the QB its not like other QBs in the playoffs haven't been plagued by the same sort of things that happened to Phil in the game against NE. How about the infamous 4th & 1 that David Garrard converted to beat the Steelers in the playoffs a few years back when the NFL sent a letter later to admit that they missed the obvious holding call when a defender was right in front of Garrard (truth be told it was Tyrone Carter so Garrard prolly woulda ran him over anyway.)

3.) While I can agree with you that the true quality of a player is better judged over a career it is worth pointing out that so far Ben has outplayed Phil in the playoffs and I'm not talking wins. Even with Ben's putrid Super Bowl XL his numbers have been better in the postseason than Phil. I'm not counting yards obviously because Ben has played in more games but I'm talking YPA and Completion % and QB Rating. Since the styles of the teams are vastly different its prolly not as easy as just saying Phil averages more ypg either so I'm just trying to stop an argument from that before it happens.

I think Phil's great and he should be recognized as a top QB but when it comes time to WIN the game or MAKE the play that could ultimately lead his team to victory I trust Ben more. A lot of it is his ability to extend the play when the opposing defense WINS the initial match-ups whether that be at the line or in coverage. Phil has not proven that he can do that with any consistency.

Of note... All 4 QBs in the championship round this year are mobile.

My point about the Troy Brown strip was that the NFL playoffs are really a crapshoot, so assigning a ton of value to a QB;s record in the playoff is probably not a the best metric for evaluating a player. Playoffs Only

Rivers

7.95 YPA

58.5 cmp %

3.93% INT

32.7 passes per game

Roethlisberger

7.95 YPA

61.6% CMP %

3.87% INT

28.2 passes per game

considering the usage, Rivers has probably played better in the playoffs than Roethlisberger.

That said, we are still only talking about a 7 game and an 11 game sample for both guys without factoring in strength of schedule for defense. Nor can I find anywhere online to find playoff fumble or sack stats, my guess is that those numbers would make Rivers look better as Ben historically has taken more sacks than Rivers, but certainly not sure without the actual numbers.

 

[Bayhawks]

My point about the Troy Brown strip was that the NFL playoffs are really a crapshoot, so assigning a ton of value to a QB;s record in the playoff is probably not a the best metric for evaluating a player.

Playoffs Only

Rivers

7.95 YPA

58.5 cmp %

3.93% INT

32.7 passes per game

Roethlisberger

7.95 YPA

61.6% CMP %

3.87% INT

28.2 passes per game

considering the usage, Rivers has probably played better in the playoffs than Roethlisberger.

How do you come to this conclusion? The stats that YOU provided show that they have identical YPA, Roethlisberger has a higher completion % and lower INT rate. At the most, you could suggest that Rivers has been equal to Roethlisberger, but using YOUR stats, you have no basis to say Rivers has played better.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Good video clip from the Inside the NFL crew discussing Roehtlisberger and where he ranks among QB:

LINK

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

My point about the Troy Brown strip was that the NFL playoffs are really a crapshoot, so assigning a ton of value to a QB;s record in the playoff is probably not a the best metric for evaluating a player.

Playoffs Only

Rivers

7.95 YPA

58.5 cmp %

3.93% INT

32.7 passes per game

Roethlisberger

7.95 YPA

61.6% CMP %

3.87% INT

28.2 passes per game

considering the usage, Rivers has probably played better in the playoffs than Roethlisberger.

How do you come to this conclusion? The stats that YOU provided show that they have identical YPA, Roethlisberger has a higher completion % and lower INT rate. At the most, you could suggest that Rivers has been equal to Roethlisberger, but using YOUR stats, you have no basis to say Rivers has played better.

You also keep talking about sacks but Ben doesn't get sacked near as much in the postseason. For every time he does get sacked I KNOW he makes at least 1 play that Phil couldn't make by escaping a would be sacker that comes free from the start of the play. We are splitting hairs like many of you have said but it comes down to who you would rather have and why.

I'd rather have Ben because of the multiple ways that he can beat you.... Period.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

My point about the Troy Brown strip was that the NFL playoffs are really a crapshoot, so assigning a ton of value to a QB;s record in the playoff is probably not a the best metric for evaluating a player.

Playoffs Only

Rivers

7.95 YPA

58.5 cmp %

3.93% INT

32.7 passes per game

Roethlisberger

7.95 YPA

61.6% CMP %

3.87% INT

28.2 passes per game

considering the usage, Rivers has probably played better in the playoffs than Roethlisberger.

How do you come to this conclusion? The stats that YOU provided show that they have identical YPA, Roethlisberger has a higher completion % and lower INT rate. At the most, you could suggest that Rivers has been equal to Roethlisberger, but using YOUR stats, you have no basis to say Rivers has played better.

The stats are extremely close except for usage. I'm assuming that being used more reduces efficiency. The more one aspect of an offense is used, the more it warrants attention from the defense. Use an extreme example would make this point more clear. Which would be a better player of two QBs who complete every pass for a TD, the one who throws 1 pass a game vs one who throws 5 passes a game.

Rivers accounts for 35.8 more yards per game at a similar efficiency. I'm saying his performance likely has been better, but it certainly is close. So close, that effectively saying one is clearly better because of playoff performance is meaningless.

Also, I mention sacks because Roethlisberger has historically more sacks than Rivers per pass during the regular season. I'd say it is likely that this trend would continue, but without access to playoff sack stats, I cannot prove it. The fact that he "makes plays Phil couldn't" doesn't seem to be reflected in their playoff stats.

That said, my reason for preferring Rivers is mostly based on his superior performance over his career, most of which has been the regular season.

 

[Choke]

mostly based on his superior performance over his career,

You are not fooling anyone.

 

[GoodLloydHaveMercy]

My point about the Troy Brown strip was that the NFL playoffs are really a crapshoot, so assigning a ton of value to a QB;s record in the playoff is probably not a the best metric for evaluating a player.

Playoffs Only

Rivers

7.95 YPA

58.5 cmp %

3.93% INT

32.7 passes per game

Roethlisberger

7.95 YPA

61.6% CMP %

3.87% INT

28.2 passes per game

considering the usage, Rivers has probably played better in the playoffs than Roethlisberger.

How do you come to this conclusion? The stats that YOU provided show that they have identical YPA, Roethlisberger has a higher completion % and lower INT rate. At the most, you could suggest that Rivers has been equal to Roethlisberger, but using YOUR stats, you have no basis to say Rivers has played better.

The stats are extremely close except for usage. I'm assuming that being used more reduces efficiency. The more one aspect of an offense is used, the more it warrants attention from the defense. Use an extreme example would make this point more clear. Which would be a better player of two QBs who complete every pass for a TD, the one who throws 1 pass a game vs one who throws 5 passes a game.

Rivers accounts for 35.8 more yards per game at a similar efficiency. I'm saying his performance likely has been better, but it certainly is close. So close, that effectively saying one is clearly better because of playoff performance is meaningless.

Also, I mention sacks because Roethlisberger has historically more sacks than Rivers per pass during the regular season. I'd say it is likely that this trend would continue, but without with access to playoff sack stats, I cannot prove it. The fact that he "makes plays Phil couldn't" doesn't seem to be reflected in their playoff stats.

That said, my reason for preferring Rivers is mostly based on his superior performance over his career, most of which has been the regular season.

Sacks through first 7 games of each one's playoff career

Phil

3 in a L

1 in a W

0 in a W

1 in a L

4 in a W

4 in a L

2 in a L

15 total

Ben

1 in a W

1 in a L

1 in a W

2 in a W

2 in a W

1 in a W

6 in a L

14 total

now based on YOUR logic Ben has been USED more in the playoffs (more games played)

Using an extreme example would make this point more clear. Which would be a better player of two QBs who complete every playoff pass for a TD, the one who throws 1 pass a game in more than 7 playoff games or the one who throws 1 pass a game in ONLY 7 playoff games.

clearly I'm being sarcastic but to the point... I don't recall Phil coming up with the "Flash" plays that we see Ben put up when he avoids free rushers and still finds somebody open downfield.

I stand behind my

 

[Bayhawks]

The stats are extremely close except for usage. I'm assuming that being used more reduces efficiency. The more one aspect of an offense is used, the more it warrants attention from the defense.

That's probably true, in most cases. However, rather than assuming about how efficient Roethlisberger is/isn't, why don't you just look at the numbers?Roethlisberger had the most attempts of his career in 2009 (506 or 33.7/game). He also had his highest completion %, his highest YPA (8.6) since his first 2 years when he had under 300 attempts, his highest passing yardage total, and 2nd highest TD total. These numbers are also extremely similar to what Rivers put up this year, although Rivers had about 40 extra passing attempts. I think it's a poor assumption on your part to suggest that the numbers are only close because Roethlisberger passes less, and is therefore more efficient. In fact, the opposite is probably more true: the numbers are only close because Rivers gets more opportunities to put up numbers.

Use an extreme example would make this point more clear. Which would be a better player of two QBs who complete every pass for a TD, the one who throws 1 pass a game vs one who throws 5 passes a game.

Use of an example that is not quite so extreme would be more accurate, though. Rivers throws touchdowns at a 5.5% rate, while Roethlisberger does so at a 5.1% rate. The numbers are very close here, and Ben's 5.1% career clip is the exact same as his 5.1% clip from 2009 when he had the most attempts in his career. It appears he doesn't get less efficient with his TD rate when he gets more opportunities, either.

Rivers accounts for 35.8 more yards per game at a similar efficiency. I'm saying his performance likely has been better, but it certainly is close. So close, that effectively saying one is clearly better because of playoff performance is meaningless.

Again, what you are saying doesn't make sense, based on the information that YOU PROVIDED. If the statistics are a virtual dead heat, then playoff performance should most definitely be the "tie-breaker." Look at Jim Kelly and Joe Montana. Similar stats:Montana-15 years, 192 starts, 40531 pass yards (211 yards/game), 63.2 completion %, 7.5 YPA 273 TD, 5.1% TD ratio

Kelly-11 years, 160 starts, 35467 pass yards (221 yards/game), 60.1 completion %, 7.4 YPA 237 TD, 5.1% TD ratio

Virtually identical stats on a game-by-game basis, especially when you consider Kelly spent some of his best years in the USFL. Yet, despite the statistics being a virtual dead heat, Montana is regarded as one of (if not the best) QB of all time. What sets them apart? PLAYOFF SUCCESS! Montana 4-SB, Kelly 0-SB.

If 2 QBs are very similar with numbers put up during the regular season, playoff success should definitely be considered. Trent Dilfer shouldn't be regarded as a better QB than Jim Kelly based on his playoff success, but Roethlisberger should definitely be considered a superior QB to Rivers based on their respective playoff successes/failures.

Also, I mention sacks because Roethlisberger has historically more sacks than Rivers per pass during the regular season. I'd say it is likely that this trend would continue, but without access to playoff sack stats, I cannot prove it. The fact that he "makes plays Phil couldn't" doesn't seem to be reflected in their playoff stats.

It can't?Rivers-7 playoff games, 260 yards/game, 1.1 TD/game, 1.3 INT/game, 58.5% completion, 8.0 YPA, 79.2 QB rating

Ben-11 playoff games, 225 yards/game, 1.6 TD/game, 1.1 INT/game, 61.6% completion, 8.0 YPA, 101.8 QB rating

I think the playoff numbers very much demonstrate that Ben makes plays Rivers can't.

That said, my reason for preferring Rivers is mostly based on his superior performance over his career, most of which has been the regular season.

Since NONE of the statistics demonstrate that Rivers is superior to Roethlisberger (as you yourself have noted), this is an odd statement.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I thought Ghost Rider, as usual, likes to tweak the Steeler fans a little but is always fair with his comments and makes valid points. He and I have disagreed vehemently in the past, but it's always respectful and never resorts to the type of name-calling and "turn on the TV" garbage that sometimes permeates these discussions.

 

[12punch]

Wut?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I think the Steelers ran something like 65-70% running plays. Go figure.

Not a good game from Ben, but once again, even when he has an off day, he manages to make a couple plays with his legs and a couple of clutch throws.

And we're off to Dallas.

 

[cvnpoka]

roeth played poor today but the steelers won.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

That becomes moot when you consider that those situations would never even occur if Pittsburgh's defense didn't single-handidly put them in them.It's great that Ben Roethlisberger has a couple times picked up a clutch first down or thrown a clutch late TD in a close game. But without the best defense in the world creating those situations that clutch late TD is merely a garbage time score to help Pitt lose by 13 instead of by 20.Really we need look no further than 2009. The*only* year that Big Ben played without an elite defense Pitt failed to even make the playoffs. Roethlisberger is a good fit for Pittsburgh because they're defense is so good that one or two good plays a game is enough for them year after year. For every single other franchise in the NFL, that's not really that valuable when you're trading 57 minutes of offensive stagnation per game to get those one or two plays, and you're trailing by 20 when those plays finally pop up.

 

[draino]

In the NFL careers and legacy are defined in the post season.

If thats the case then Terry Bradshaw is the second best quarterback ever, but its not Ben Roethlisberger is the most overrated qb in the NFL. 10-19 133 2ints but he made that 3rd down pass......freaking wonderful....He has to play 2 or 3 plays a game and his defense and running game carries him the rest of game. Ben is good but will never be in Montana, Elway, Marino, Brady, or P. Manning's class. He will just have more rings thanks to the Pittsburgh organization who have the best drafts year after year. Defense still can win Championships and Pittsburgh proves it time and again. Ben had the worst super bowl ever for a QB( 9/21 123yards and 2int) but still won. It should be a good super bowl but if Roethlisberger plays his normal game then they will lose by 10 points. He receives accolades because we live in the ESPN era where if you win championships then you are considered great regardless if you really contribute to the victory. He better play like a great QB otherwise he will remain the worst QB with 2 rings (Yes I think Plunkett and Bart Starr are better than him at this point in his career).

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

That becomes moot when you consider that those situations would never even occur if Pittsburgh's defense didn't single-handidly put them in them.It's great that Ben Roethlisberger has a couple times picked up a clutch first down or thrown a clutch late TD in a close game. But without the best defense in the world creating those situations that clutch late TD is merely a garbage time score to help Pitt lose by 13 instead of by 20.Really we need look no further than 2009. The*only* year that Big Ben played without an elite defense Pitt failed to even make the playoffs. Roethlisberger is a good fit for Pittsburgh because they're defense is so good that one or two good plays a game is enough for them year after year. For every single other franchise in the NFL, that's not really that valuable when you're trading 57 minutes of offensive stagnation per game to get those one or two plays, and you're trailing by 20 when those plays finally pop up.

This is really inaccurate. This was one of his worst games of the season (kudos to the Jets defense, they took Ward and Wallace out of the game) and he still made more than "1 or 2 good plays." I've resigned myself to the fact that he'll never really get his due, but I don't really care so much any more, as long as the Steelers keep collecting hardware (which coincidentally, I suppose, wasn't happening in the 80s and 90s, despite the fact that the Steelers often had equally dominant defenses.)

 

[Steelers4Life]

Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

That becomes moot when you consider that those situations would never even occur if Pittsburgh's defense didn't single-handidly put them in them.It's great that Ben Roethlisberger has a couple times picked up a clutch first down or thrown a clutch late TD in a close game. But without the best defense in the world creating those situations that clutch late TD is merely a garbage time score to help Pitt lose by 13 instead of by 20.Really we need look no further than 2009. The*only* year that Big Ben played without an elite defense Pitt failed to even make the playoffs. Roethlisberger is a good fit for Pittsburgh because they're defense is so good that one or two good plays a game is enough for them year after year. For every single other franchise in the NFL, that's not really that valuable when you're trading 57 minutes of offensive stagnation per game to get those one or two plays, and you're trailing by 20 when those plays finally pop up.

Funny, Tom Brady has played in a pass-happy offense for a majority of his career, but the next time he wins a Super Bowl without a top ranked defense will be the FIRST time he wins a Super Bowl without a top ranked defense. People give him all the credit, but his defense and Adam Vinatieri have had equal parts in all of it.The reason Ben is such a good fit for the Steelers is because the offensive line has been poor in recent years in pass protection. Guys like Brady and Manning are deadly accurate and tremendous at sitting in the pocket and picking apart defenses. However, if you put pressure in their face, they struggle. With Ben, he's even better AFTER a defender makes contact with him and he never folds in the face of pressure.

 

[Ballstein]

Hit Big Ben....don't matterHit Tom Brady....game over

Jets revealed this

 

[Chaz McNulty]

I think the Steelers ran something like 65-70% running plays. Go figure.Not a good game from Ben, but once again, even when he has an off day, he manages to make a couple plays with his legs and a couple of clutch throws. And we're off to Dallas.

This is why Defense wins Championships. A guy like Manning cannot afford to have an off day in the playoffs. I've seen Ben win the Superbowl on an 'off day'.

 

[jojoh07]

I think the Steelers ran something like 65-70% running plays. Go figure.

Not a good game from Ben, but once again, even when he has an off day, he manages to make a couple plays with his legs and a couple of clutch throws.

And we're off to Dallas.

This is why Defense wins Championships. A guy like Manning cannot afford to have an off day in the playoffs. I've seen Ben win the Superbowl on an 'off day'.

 

[Hellfire Snail]

I think the Steelers ran something like 65-70% running plays. Go figure.Not a good game from Ben, but once again, even when he has an off day, he manages to make a couple plays with his legs and a couple of clutch throws. And we're off to Dallas.

This is why Defense wins Championships. A guy like Manning cannot afford to have an off day in the playoffs. I've seen Ben win the Superbowl on an 'off day'.

Manning had not one but several off-games when he won his Superbowl, including the Superbowl.

 

[Ghost Rider]

This is why Defense wins Championships. A guy like Manning cannot afford to have an off day in the playoffs. I've seen Ben win the Superbowl on an 'off day'.

Manning didn't play well in either of the first two games of their four-game Super Bowl run in '06.

 

[CrossEyed]

Making a big play when your team needs it doesn't mean anything anymore?Preforming well in TIGHT games doesn't mean anything anymore?

That becomes moot when you consider that those situations would never even occur if Pittsburgh's defense didn't single-handidly put them in them.It's great that Ben Roethlisberger has a couple times picked up a clutch first down or thrown a clutch late TD in a close game. But without the best defense in the world creating those situations that clutch late TD is merely a garbage time score to help Pitt lose by 13 instead of by 20.Really we need look no further than 2009. The*only* year that Big Ben played without an elite defense Pitt failed to even make the playoffs. Roethlisberger is a good fit for Pittsburgh because they're defense is so good that one or two good plays a game is enough for them year after year. For every single other franchise in the NFL, that's not really that valuable when you're trading 57 minutes of offensive stagnation per game to get those one or two plays, and you're trailing by 20 when those plays finally pop up.

This is really inaccurate. This was one of his worst games of the season (kudos to the Jets defense, they took Ward and Wallace out of the game) and he still made more than "1 or 2 good plays." I've resigned myself to the fact that he'll never really get his due, but I don't really care so much any more, as long as the Steelers keep collecting hardware (which coincidentally, I suppose, wasn't happening in the 80s and 90s, despite the fact that the Steelers often had equally dominant defenses.)

Fantasy football has ruined people's ability to recognize what a great NFL QB looks like.

 

[3C's]

Roethlisberger is the worst qb in the NFL with 2 rings.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

Roethlisberger is the worst qb in the NFL with 2 rings.

Hopefully he's the worst Qb with THREE rings in 2 weeks...

 

[3C's]

Roethlisberger is the worst qb in the NFL with 2 rings.

Hopefully he's the worst Qb with THREE rings in 2 weeks...

 

[cvnpoka]

I think the Steelers ran something like 65-70% running plays. Go figure.Not a good game from Ben, but once again, even when he has an off day, he manages to make a couple plays with his legs and a couple of clutch throws. And we're off to Dallas.

This is why Defense wins Championships. A guy like Manning cannot afford to have an off day in the playoffs. I've seen Ben win the Superbowl on an 'off day'.

Manning had not one but several off-games when he won his Superbowl, including the Superbowl.

this would can be classified under "makings his point for him"

 

[Choke]

I think the Steelers ran something like 65-70% running plays. Go figure.Not a good game from Ben, but once again, even when he has an off day, he manages to make a couple plays with his legs and a couple of clutch throws. And we're off to Dallas.

This is why Defense wins Championships. A guy like Manning cannot afford to have an off day in the playoffs. I've seen Ben win the Superbowl on an 'off day'.

Manning had not one but several off-games when he won his Superbowl, including the Superbowl.

this would can be classified under "makings his point for him"

Most of your entire team better be playing well if you want to win a title. That doesnt discount Tom, Ben or Peyton.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

They both bring different attributes to the game. I don't know what it is about Ben but it just never seems like you can beat this guy down the stretch. You almost have to kill him to beat him.

You can't determine who's better with so many years left to play. Just enjoy their careers for now because there's nothing witty or factual you can say to sway an opposing thinker with so many good years left to play.

I just know many Steelers fans wanted Ben gone from the team prior to this seasons start and many others thought and think Troy P. is more valuable or just as valuable to their team, crazy.

You think any Pats fan wants Brady gone for any reason or thinks any defensive player is equal to Brady as far as importance to the team?

 

[kyoun1e]

Yesterday's game is a perfect example of why statistics lie when doing all these QB comparisons.

On the face of it, Ben's day looked horrible -- 10-19-121-0-2. Yet, if you WATCHED the game you saw that he had critical runs for first downs along with a rushing TD and a handful of clutch throws.

As a Brady fan, I acknowledge that Big Ben may not be a great QB (however the heck you really define that), but is a WINNER and just a flat out great football player. Ben may never lead the league in passing efficiency or grab a passing title, but who cares?

He may very well get his third ring and tie Brady and tie him as well in the "reputation" department.

And that's fine.

Because you can add up all the yardage, TDs, passer ratings you want, but in the end it's about getting those rings (Manning fans).

KY

 

[Choke]

Yesterday's game is a perfect example of why statistics lie when doing all these QB comparisons.

On the face of it, Ben's day looked horrible -- 10-19-121-0-2. Yet, if you WATCHED the game you saw that he had critical runs for first downs along with a rushing TD and a handful of clutch throws.

As a Brady fan, I acknowledge that Big Ben may not be a great QB (however the heck you really define that), but is a WINNER and just a flat out great football player. Ben may never lead the league in passing efficiency or grab a passing title, but who cares?

He may very well get his third ring and tie Brady and tie him as well in the "reputation" department.

And that's fine.

Because you can add up all the yardage, TDs, passer ratings you want, but in the end it's about getting those rings (Manning fans).

KY

When asked why his team was so successful in holding Roethlisberger and the Steelers passing game to only 133 yards with two interceptions, Rex Ryan answered: "Dont talk to me about stats. Ben (Roethlisberger) was the best player on the field today."

 

[Godsbrother]

Yesterday's game is a perfect example of why statistics lie when doing all these QB comparisons.

On the face of it, Ben's day looked horrible -- 10-19-121-0-2. Yet, if you WATCHED the game you saw that he had critical runs for first downs along with a rushing TD and a handful of clutch throws.

As a Brady fan, I acknowledge that Big Ben may not be a great QB (however the heck you really define that), but is a WINNER and just a flat out great football player. Ben may never lead the league in passing efficiency or grab a passing title, but who cares?

He may very well get his third ring and tie Brady and tie him as well in the "reputation" department.

And that's fine.

Because you can add up all the yardage, TDs, passer ratings you want, but in the end it's about getting those rings (Manning fans).

KY

When asked why his team was so successful in holding Roethlisberger and the Steelers passing game to only 133 yards with two interceptions, Rex Ryan answered: "Dont talk to me about stats. Ben (Roethlisberger) was the best player on the field today."

FF has skewed a lot of people's vision of what is important. I thought Roethlisberger was fine. The passing numbers weren't big but the Steelers O went extremely conservative and only threw 19 times. As far as he picks go one was off of Mendy's hands and the other was basically a punt. He made some nice throws and big runs when he needed to and the Steelers won the game. I am pretty sure Sanchez would trade his stat line with Ben if it meant a trip to the Super Bowl.

 

[Bayhawks]

Yesterday's game is a perfect example of why statistics lie when doing all these QB comparisons.

On the face of it, Ben's day looked horrible -- 10-19-121-0-2. Yet, if you WATCHED the game you saw that he had critical runs for first downs along with a rushing TD and a handful of clutch throws.

As a Brady fan, I acknowledge that Big Ben may not be a great QB (however the heck you really define that), but is a WINNER and just a flat out great football player. Ben may never lead the league in passing efficiency or grab a passing title, but who cares?

He may very well get his third ring and tie Brady and tie him as well in the "reputation" department.

And that's fine.

Because you can add up all the yardage, TDs, passer ratings you want, but in the end it's about getting those rings (Manning fans).

KY

When asked why his team was so successful in holding Roethlisberger and the Steelers passing game to only 133 yards with two interceptions, Rex Ryan answered: "Dont talk to me about stats. Ben (Roethlisberger) was the best player on the field today."

FF has skewed a lot of people's vision of what is important. I thought Roethlisberger was fine. The passing numbers weren't big but the Steelers O went extremely conservative and only threw 19 times. As far as he picks go one was off of Mendy's hands and the other was basically a punt. He made some nice throws and big runs when he needed to and the Steelers won the game.

The pick off of Mendenhall's hands should be blamed on both players. Mendenhall appeared to slip as he turned, so when the pass was a bit high, he wasn't set to receive it and basically "volley-balled" it up in the air. Ben did throw that pass awfully hard, it appeared (and just a tad high) for a screen pass.The 2nd pick-you are correct that it was basically a punt (actually, it may have worked out better than a punt as they tackled Pool at the 14). However, it occured on 2nd down, so that "punt" cost them the chance to gain some yards and put points on the board. Furthermore, if Roethlisberger had put that ball towards the sideline/pylon, I think it was a TD. Sanders was open, and Pool was inside. Ben threw it inside, and basically gave the INT to Pool.

That being said, Ben made some big runs and critical throws when they needed them (both 1st down conversions on the last drive were HUGE & tough throws), so even though the stats weren't there, he had a good day.

 

[parrot]

Yesterday's game is a perfect example of why statistics lie when doing all these QB comparisons.

On the face of it, Ben's day looked horrible -- 10-19-121-0-2. Yet, if you WATCHED the game you saw that he had critical runs for first downs along with a rushing TD and a handful of clutch throws.

As a Brady fan, I acknowledge that Big Ben may not be a great QB (however the heck you really define that), but is a WINNER and just a flat out great football player. Ben may never lead the league in passing efficiency or grab a passing title, but who cares?

He may very well get his third ring and tie Brady and tie him as well in the "reputation" department.

And that's fine.

Because you can add up all the yardage, TDs, passer ratings you want, but in the end it's about getting those rings (Manning fans).

KY

When asked why his team was so successful in holding Roethlisberger and the Steelers passing game to only 133 yards with two interceptions, Rex Ryan answered: "Dont talk to me about stats. Ben (Roethlisberger) was the best player on the field today."

FF has skewed a lot of people's vision of what is important. I thought Roethlisberger was fine. The passing numbers weren't big but the Steelers O went extremely conservative and only threw 19 times. As far as he picks go one was off of Mendy's hands and the other was basically a punt. He made some nice throws and big runs when he needed to and the Steelers won the game. I am pretty sure Sanchez would trade his stat line with Ben if it meant a trip to the Super Bowl.

On the other hand, he also bounced a pass right off Kyle Wilson's facemask. That said, Ben did have some nice runs and some amazing escapes yesterday. I don't know how he didn't get sacked on the play were he threw the long pick.

 

[mcintyre1]

Yesterday's game is a perfect example of why statistics lie when doing all these QB comparisons.

On the face of it, Ben's day looked horrible -- 10-19-121-0-2. Yet, if you WATCHED the game you saw that he had critical runs for first downs along with a rushing TD and a handful of clutch throws.

As a Brady fan, I acknowledge that Big Ben may not be a great QB (however the heck you really define that), but is a WINNER and just a flat out great football player. Ben may never lead the league in passing efficiency or grab a passing title, but who cares?

He may very well get his third ring and tie Brady and tie him as well in the "reputation" department.

And that's fine.

Because you can add up all the yardage, TDs, passer ratings you want, but in the end it's about getting those rings (Manning fans).

KY

When asked why his team was so successful in holding Roethlisberger and the Steelers passing game to only 133 yards with two interceptions, Rex Ryan answered: "Dont talk to me about stats. Ben (Roethlisberger) was the best player on the field today."

FF has skewed a lot of people's vision of what is important. I thought Roethlisberger was fine. The passing numbers weren't big but the Steelers O went extremely conservative and only threw 19 times. As far as he picks go one was off of Mendy's hands and the other was basically a punt. He made some nice throws and big runs when he needed to and the Steelers won the game.

The pick off of Mendenhall's hands should be blamed on both players. Mendenhall appeared to slip as he turned, so when the pass was a bit high, he wasn't set to receive it and basically "volley-balled" it up in the air. Ben did throw that pass awfully hard, it appeared (and just a tad high) for a screen pass.The 2nd pick-you are correct that it was basically a punt (actually, it may have worked out better than a punt as they tackled Pool at the 14). However, it occured on 2nd down, so that "punt" cost them the chance to gain some yards and put points on the board. Furthermore, if Roethlisberger had put that ball towards the sideline/pylon, I think it was a TD. Sanders was open, and Pool was inside. Ben threw it inside, and basically gave the INT to Pool.

That being said, Ben made some big runs and critical throws when they needed them (both 1st down conversions on the last drive were HUGE & tough throws), so even though the stats weren't there, he had a good day.

The 2nd pick would have been a huge gain (if not TD) had Roeth not had to evade the pass rush. I'm still not sure how he knew that guy was coming. I saw his clean path to the QB and thought "Oh god, he's gonna get drilled," and at the last second Roeth does his little spin move to slip away. Unfortunately, that spin move meant that the Jets secondary had time to catch up to Sanders and get the pick.