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Obama To Announce Uncostitutional Amnesty (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Jim11
- Start date
HellToupee
Footballguy
Seems like someone different is running the Schochet account recently. Definitely a different posting style wise & tone
This article references a few different studies on the relationship between immigration, jobs, and wages: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_great_divergence/features/2010/the_united_states_of_inequality/did_immigration_create_the_great_divergence.html
Not related directly, but I think it is a good read.
timschochet
Footballguy
Really? In what way? I think if you asked some of my biggest longtime critics here (jon mx, Rich Conway, Strikes2k) they would tell you I've been fairly consistent on this issue.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
First you use the word "felon", then you use the word "convicted criminal". You do know that those two things are not necessarily the same......riiiiiiight?
jamny
Footballguy
njherdfan
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm not sure what it means when he says it's "nothing to do with Boehner." It's entirely to do with Boehner wanting to keep his position. As for working on a bill they can pass, the bill that passed the Senate absolutely would pass the house if Boehner let it come to a vote, but there's a vocal contingent of Republicans that want nothing to do with any sort of immigration reform, so in that sense, there's no such thing as "a bill they can pass" and expect Obama to sign.
timschochet
Footballguy
Oh it was all over the place last year. I wouldn't know where to look now, but conservative leaders all appeared on the talk shows and stated that if Boehner brought the bill up he would be gone.
HellToupee
Footballguy
More curt with a healthy heaping condescension sprinkled in
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't think I'm any more condescending than normal.
As for curtness, thanks for the concern. From now on I will make my replies much more long winded.
timschochet
Footballguy
Anyhow HT, you wouldn't understand.
jonessed
Footballguy
I think any lawsuits on the matter will come through the states. Better that it gets cleaned up sooner than later.
jonessed
Footballguy
And there were House bills that would have passed the Senate if Reid allowed a vote. That's how these things work.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Senate bill is an all-encompassing bill which involves spending serious money on the border and giving illegals a path to citizenship after a long and grueling process. All Obama is doing is telling 4-5 million illegals who have legal children growing up here, we're not going to deport you. There is no talk of making them citizens. And it's only for the remainder of Obama's presidency- any future President can revoke this (though, in all probability, they never will.)
jonessed
Footballguy
There are quite a few. There are summaries of the bill out there if you want to read up.
The two biggest difference are probably the border security measures and the path to citizenship.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
You're certainly consistent on this issue. You've recently become a lot more shrill and less thoughtful/rational.timschochet said:
jonessed
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
An OK read, but certainly nothing that shows what timschochet keeps claiming (that illegal immigration is a net benefit).Slapdash said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Loan Sharks
Not a Wolf
timschochet
Footballguy
Thoughtful piece by Paul Krugman this morning:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/opinion/paul-krugman-immigration-children.html
First, there are more than a million young people in this country who came — yes, illegally — as children and have lived here ever since. Second, there are large numbers of children who were born here — which makes them U.S. citizens, with all the same rights you and I have — but whose parents came illegally, and are legally subject to being deported.
What should we do about these people and their families? There are some forces in our political life who want us to bring out the iron fist — to seek out and deport young residents who weren’t born here but have never known another home, to seek out and deport the undocumented parents of American children and force those children either to go into exile or to fend for themselves.
Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story
But that isn’t going to happen, partly because, as a nation, we aren’t really that cruel; partly because that kind of crackdown would require something approaching police-state rule; and, largely, I’m sorry to say, because Congress doesn’t want to spend the money that such a plan would require. In practice, undocumented children and the undocumented parents of legal children aren’t going anywhere.
The real question, then, is how we’re going to treat them. Will we continue our current regime of malign neglect, denying them ordinary rights and leaving them under the constant threat of deportation? Or will we treat them as the fellow Americans they already are?
The truth is that sheer self-interest says that we should do the humane thing. Today’s immigrant children are tomorrow’s workers, taxpayers and neighbors. Condemning them to life in the shadows means that they will have less stable home lives than they should, be denied the opportunity to acquire skills and education, contribute less to the economy, and play a less positive role in society. Failure to act is just self-destructive.
But speaking for myself, I don’t care that much about the money, or even the social aspects. What really matters, or should matter, is the humanity. My parents were able to have the lives they did because America, despite all the prejudices of the time, was willing to treat them as people. Offering the same kind of treatment to today’s immigrant children is the practical course of action, but it’s also, crucially, the right thing to do. So let’s applaud the president for doing it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/opinion/paul-krugman-immigration-children.html
First, there are more than a million young people in this country who came — yes, illegally — as children and have lived here ever since. Second, there are large numbers of children who were born here — which makes them U.S. citizens, with all the same rights you and I have — but whose parents came illegally, and are legally subject to being deported.
What should we do about these people and their families? There are some forces in our political life who want us to bring out the iron fist — to seek out and deport young residents who weren’t born here but have never known another home, to seek out and deport the undocumented parents of American children and force those children either to go into exile or to fend for themselves.
Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story
But that isn’t going to happen, partly because, as a nation, we aren’t really that cruel; partly because that kind of crackdown would require something approaching police-state rule; and, largely, I’m sorry to say, because Congress doesn’t want to spend the money that such a plan would require. In practice, undocumented children and the undocumented parents of legal children aren’t going anywhere.
The real question, then, is how we’re going to treat them. Will we continue our current regime of malign neglect, denying them ordinary rights and leaving them under the constant threat of deportation? Or will we treat them as the fellow Americans they already are?
The truth is that sheer self-interest says that we should do the humane thing. Today’s immigrant children are tomorrow’s workers, taxpayers and neighbors. Condemning them to life in the shadows means that they will have less stable home lives than they should, be denied the opportunity to acquire skills and education, contribute less to the economy, and play a less positive role in society. Failure to act is just self-destructive.
But speaking for myself, I don’t care that much about the money, or even the social aspects. What really matters, or should matter, is the humanity. My parents were able to have the lives they did because America, despite all the prejudices of the time, was willing to treat them as people. Offering the same kind of treatment to today’s immigrant children is the practical course of action, but it’s also, crucially, the right thing to do. So let’s applaud the president for doing it.
timschochet
Footballguy
Just for you, Rich:
http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/index.html
5 Illegal Immigration myths debunked:
Myth # 1: They don't pay taxes
Undocumented immigrants are already U.S. taxpayers.
Collectively, they paid an estimated $10.6 billion to state and local taxes in 2010, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), a research organization that works on tax policy issues. Contributions varied by state. In Montana they contributed $2 million. In California, more than $2.2 billion. On average they pay about 6.4% of their income in state and local taxes, ITEP said.
A 2007 Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report on the impact of undocumented immigrants on the budgets of local and state governments cited IRS figures showing that 50% to 75% of the about 11 million unauthorized U.S. immigrants file and pay income taxes each year.
A 2013 CBO analysis of the failed bipartisan bill introduced by the so-called "gang of 8" that would have created a path to legal status for many undocumented immigrants found that increasing legal immigration would increase government spending on refundable tax credits, Medicaid and health insurance subsidies, among other federal benefits. But it would also create even more tax revenue by way of income and payroll taxes. That could reduce deficits by $175 billion over the first 10 years and by at least $700 billion in the second decade.
ITEP estimates that allowing certain immigrants to stay in the country and work legally would boost state and local tax contributions by $2 billion a year.
Myth # 2: They don't pay into Social Security
The truth is that undocumented immigrants contribute more in payroll taxes than they will ever consume in public benefits.
Take Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid an eye-popping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade.
"They are paying an estimated $15 billion a year into Social Security with no intention of ever collecting benefits," Stephen Goss, chief actuary of the SSA told CNNMoney. "Without the estimated 3.1 million undocumented immigrants paying into the system, Social Security would have entered persistent shortfall of tax revenue to cover payouts starting in 2009," he said.
As the baby boom generation ages and retires, immigrant workers are key to shoring up Social Security and counteracting the effects of the decline in U.S.-born workers paying into the system, Goss said.
Without immigrants, the Social Security Board of Trustees projects that the system will no longer be able to pay the full promised benefits by 2037.
Myth #3: They drain the system
Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and most other public benefits. Most of these programs require proof of legal immigration status and under the 1996 welfare law, even legal immigrants cannot receive these benefits until they have been in the United States for more than five years.
Non-citizen immigrant adults and children are about 25% less likely to be signed up for Medicaid than their poor native-born equivalents and are also 37% less likely to receive food stamps, according to a 2013 study by the Cato Institute.
Citizen children of illegal immigrants -- often derogatorily referred to as "anchor babies" -- do qualify for social benefits. Also, undocumented immigrants are eligible for schooling and emergency medical care. Currently, the average unlawful immigrant household costs taxpayers $14,387 per household, according to a recent report by The Heritage Foundation. But in its 2013 "Immigration Myths and Facts" report, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce says most economists see providing these benefits as an investment for the future, when these children become workers and taxpayers.
A CBO report on the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 concluded that a path to legalization for immigrants would increase federal revenues by $48 billion. Such a plan would see $23 billion in increased costs from the use of public services, but ultimately, it would produce a surplus of $25 billion for government coffers, CBO said.
Myth # 4: They take American jobs
The American economy needs immigrant workers.
The belief that immigrants take jobs that can otherwise be filled by hard-working Americans has been disputed by an overwhelming number of economic research studies and data.
Removing the approximately 8 million unauthorized workers in the United States would not automatically create 8 million job openings for unemployed Americans, said Daniel Griswold, director of the Cato Institute's Center for Trade Policy Studies, in his 2011 testimony before the House Judiciary Sub-committee on Immigration Policy and Enforcement.
The reason, according to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, is two-fold. For one, removing millions of undocumented workers from the economy would also remove millions of entrepreneurs, consumers and taxpayers. The economy would actually lose jobs. Second, native-born workers and immigrant workers tend to possess different skills that often complement one another.
According to Griswold, immigrants, regardless of status, fill the growing gap between expanding low-skilled jobs and the shrinking pool of native-born Americans who are willing to take such jobs. By facilitating the growth of such sectors as retail, agriculture, landscaping, restaurants, and hotels, low-skilled immigrants have enabled those sectors to expand, attract investment, and create middle-class jobs in management, design and engineering, bookkeeping, marketing and other areas that employ U.S. citizens.
America's unions support the president's executive action. "For far too long, our broken immigration system has allowed employers to drive down wages and working conditions in our country," the AFL-CIO says on its website. "The brunt of the impact has been born by immigrant workers, who face the highest rates of wage theft, sexual harassment, and death and injury on the job."
Myth # 5: It's just a matter of following the law
Many Americans want immigrants to enter the country legally.
But under current immigration laws, there are very few options for legal immigration, the costs are increasingly prohibitive and the wait for any kind of status can be long and frustrating.
According to the State Department, that imaginary "immigration line" is already 4.4 million people long and depending on the type of visa sought and the country of origin, the wait can be years to decades long. In some countries, such as the Philippines and Mexico people have been waiting over 20 years for approval of a family-sponsored visa.
Immigrants can legally get to the U.S by being sponsored by an employer or a family member, they can enter the country as refugees, or they could receive one of the selectively distributed professional or diversity visas. The Diversity Visa Program makes 55,000 green cards available to persons from countries with low rates of immigration to the U.S.
According to the State Department, the fees to obtain permanent U.S. visas can range from $200 to over $700, excluding legal fees. Plus, there are visa quotas which limits immigration from any given country.
In many poor, violence-ridden countries, or in cases where parents are separated from their children, immigrants say the wait is unbearable, leaving many to resort to illegal border crossing.
That journey can be expensive and deadly.
Smugglers charge anywhere from $3000 to upwards of $70,000 depending on country of origin, mode of transport and distance travelled according to the Mexican Migration Project, a multidisciplinary research effort between investigators in Mexico and the U.S.
Many don't make it. According to federal records, more than 6,000 immigrants have died crossing the southern border since 1998
http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/index.html
5 Illegal Immigration myths debunked:
Myth # 1: They don't pay taxes
Undocumented immigrants are already U.S. taxpayers.
Collectively, they paid an estimated $10.6 billion to state and local taxes in 2010, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), a research organization that works on tax policy issues. Contributions varied by state. In Montana they contributed $2 million. In California, more than $2.2 billion. On average they pay about 6.4% of their income in state and local taxes, ITEP said.
A 2007 Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report on the impact of undocumented immigrants on the budgets of local and state governments cited IRS figures showing that 50% to 75% of the about 11 million unauthorized U.S. immigrants file and pay income taxes each year.
A 2013 CBO analysis of the failed bipartisan bill introduced by the so-called "gang of 8" that would have created a path to legal status for many undocumented immigrants found that increasing legal immigration would increase government spending on refundable tax credits, Medicaid and health insurance subsidies, among other federal benefits. But it would also create even more tax revenue by way of income and payroll taxes. That could reduce deficits by $175 billion over the first 10 years and by at least $700 billion in the second decade.
ITEP estimates that allowing certain immigrants to stay in the country and work legally would boost state and local tax contributions by $2 billion a year.
Myth # 2: They don't pay into Social Security
The truth is that undocumented immigrants contribute more in payroll taxes than they will ever consume in public benefits.
Take Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid an eye-popping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade.
"They are paying an estimated $15 billion a year into Social Security with no intention of ever collecting benefits," Stephen Goss, chief actuary of the SSA told CNNMoney. "Without the estimated 3.1 million undocumented immigrants paying into the system, Social Security would have entered persistent shortfall of tax revenue to cover payouts starting in 2009," he said.
As the baby boom generation ages and retires, immigrant workers are key to shoring up Social Security and counteracting the effects of the decline in U.S.-born workers paying into the system, Goss said.
Without immigrants, the Social Security Board of Trustees projects that the system will no longer be able to pay the full promised benefits by 2037.
Myth #3: They drain the system
Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and most other public benefits. Most of these programs require proof of legal immigration status and under the 1996 welfare law, even legal immigrants cannot receive these benefits until they have been in the United States for more than five years.
Non-citizen immigrant adults and children are about 25% less likely to be signed up for Medicaid than their poor native-born equivalents and are also 37% less likely to receive food stamps, according to a 2013 study by the Cato Institute.
Citizen children of illegal immigrants -- often derogatorily referred to as "anchor babies" -- do qualify for social benefits. Also, undocumented immigrants are eligible for schooling and emergency medical care. Currently, the average unlawful immigrant household costs taxpayers $14,387 per household, according to a recent report by The Heritage Foundation. But in its 2013 "Immigration Myths and Facts" report, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce says most economists see providing these benefits as an investment for the future, when these children become workers and taxpayers.
A CBO report on the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 concluded that a path to legalization for immigrants would increase federal revenues by $48 billion. Such a plan would see $23 billion in increased costs from the use of public services, but ultimately, it would produce a surplus of $25 billion for government coffers, CBO said.
Myth # 4: They take American jobs
The American economy needs immigrant workers.
The belief that immigrants take jobs that can otherwise be filled by hard-working Americans has been disputed by an overwhelming number of economic research studies and data.
Removing the approximately 8 million unauthorized workers in the United States would not automatically create 8 million job openings for unemployed Americans, said Daniel Griswold, director of the Cato Institute's Center for Trade Policy Studies, in his 2011 testimony before the House Judiciary Sub-committee on Immigration Policy and Enforcement.
The reason, according to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, is two-fold. For one, removing millions of undocumented workers from the economy would also remove millions of entrepreneurs, consumers and taxpayers. The economy would actually lose jobs. Second, native-born workers and immigrant workers tend to possess different skills that often complement one another.
According to Griswold, immigrants, regardless of status, fill the growing gap between expanding low-skilled jobs and the shrinking pool of native-born Americans who are willing to take such jobs. By facilitating the growth of such sectors as retail, agriculture, landscaping, restaurants, and hotels, low-skilled immigrants have enabled those sectors to expand, attract investment, and create middle-class jobs in management, design and engineering, bookkeeping, marketing and other areas that employ U.S. citizens.
America's unions support the president's executive action. "For far too long, our broken immigration system has allowed employers to drive down wages and working conditions in our country," the AFL-CIO says on its website. "The brunt of the impact has been born by immigrant workers, who face the highest rates of wage theft, sexual harassment, and death and injury on the job."
Myth # 5: It's just a matter of following the law
Many Americans want immigrants to enter the country legally.
But under current immigration laws, there are very few options for legal immigration, the costs are increasingly prohibitive and the wait for any kind of status can be long and frustrating.
According to the State Department, that imaginary "immigration line" is already 4.4 million people long and depending on the type of visa sought and the country of origin, the wait can be years to decades long. In some countries, such as the Philippines and Mexico people have been waiting over 20 years for approval of a family-sponsored visa.
Immigrants can legally get to the U.S by being sponsored by an employer or a family member, they can enter the country as refugees, or they could receive one of the selectively distributed professional or diversity visas. The Diversity Visa Program makes 55,000 green cards available to persons from countries with low rates of immigration to the U.S.
According to the State Department, the fees to obtain permanent U.S. visas can range from $200 to over $700, excluding legal fees. Plus, there are visa quotas which limits immigration from any given country.
In many poor, violence-ridden countries, or in cases where parents are separated from their children, immigrants say the wait is unbearable, leaving many to resort to illegal border crossing.
That journey can be expensive and deadly.
Smugglers charge anywhere from $3000 to upwards of $70,000 depending on country of origin, mode of transport and distance travelled according to the Mexican Migration Project, a multidisciplinary research effort between investigators in Mexico and the U.S.
Many don't make it. According to federal records, more than 6,000 immigrants have died crossing the southern border since 1998
jamny
Footballguy
Oh, if Dana Rohrabacher and Matt Salmon wanted it done, it was a done deal.
I'm sure there are always people saying things like that. Doesn't mean it would have happened and that Boehner believed it would.
timschochet
Footballguy
That article I just posted, which appeared today in the CNN Money section, basically states everything that I have asserted for years, backed up by statistics and an overwhelming number of studies: illegal immigrants pay lots of taxes, they pay into Social Security, they receive very few benefits and are not a drain on the system, they pay much more than they will ever consume, they don't take American jobs, and the so-called "line" they're supposed to stay in really doesn't exist. In short, they are a NET BENEFIT.
timschochet
Footballguy
Of course. Nobody is challenging that. Republicans are challenging the ability of the President to take the actions he is doing by executive order instead of working with Congress.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
That's all well and good, but even if we take those statistics and studies at face value, it doesn't show that illegal immigration is a net benefit. It doesn't show that it's a net benefit at the current level, or if there were more (or less).
fatness
Footballguy
I misunderstood. I thought you were asking for links to conservatives stating his would lose his role as speaker.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
Man I hope not. I have an awesome Rapture suit I've been hanging on to.timschochet said:
jamny
Footballguy
Not some individuals. Tim made it sound like (in the bolded) conservatives as a block said he would be out. I'm sure every move he makes brings calls for him being removed. Hell, I've been saying it for a couple of years now. I just don't remember a unified coalition of leading conservatives saying it.
eta: thanks for the examples though. I do appreciate it.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
If they paying more into the system than they're taking out, how can you deny that they're a net benefit?And if there were less of them, then we wouldn't have gotten 100 billion paid into Social Security over the last 10 years. They are keeping that program afloat!
Rich Conway
Footballguy
No one is making the claim that they don't pay taxes. No one is making the claim that they don't pay into SS. So we might as well throw out those first two "myths".
Let's take a look at myth #3... While illegal immigrants may not be eligible for welfare, food stamps, etc., let's not pretend that some aren't receiving them. The second paragraph directly contradicts the data here: http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011 (Disclaimer: I have no idea if this organization is credible). The third paragraph notes some expenditures associated with illegal immigration (by no means all, of course), but simply dismisses it away by calling it an investment.
Myths #4 and #5 are entirely unrelated to whether illegal immigration is a net benefit to the economy or not.
So, basically, there's no data here that we can use to determine whether illegal immigration is a net benefit or not.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
First off, as an aside, I don't believe the organization you posted IS credible, but that's just a personal opinion.
More importantly, you say that "no one is claiming they don't pay taxes or social security"- actually, Republican politicians DO make this claim all the time. But even if I accepted your statement, you can't just dismiss it out of hand. You apparently had no reaction to the fact that they over the last 10 years they paid 100 billion into SS alone- that's no small number. Further, you pass over the part of the article which cites studies which clearly state how much illegals cost the taxpayer ($14,000 per household per the Heritage Foundation) versus how much they bring in- already a net positive, to increase by 25 billion if we have a path to legalization.
So yes, you can always choose not to believe these statistics and studies presented, but if you accept them, there is no way not to conclude that they're a net benefit. IMO.
culdeus
Footballguy
Not trying to be a ####, but this will come off that way. Anyone care to show me how this exact thing could be accomplished under the constitution?
New to Tim? He'll post a bunch of crap that he doesn't back up at all, then throw in a few links which say nothing remotely close to what he claims they say.
snowmonkey501
Footballguy
backlog and inefficiency?
no they arent. and unemployment benefits are not an economic stimulus either.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I'm well aware that illegals pay SS, income taxes, etc., so I can't imagine why you'd think I would have a significant reaction to this news. I also wouldn't likely have any particular reaction if you told me the earth was round.
I didn't pass over the $14K claim, but it's not what you think it is. That's a $14K net cost per illegal household, not a $14K cost. That is, the Heritage study ALREADY counted the taxes paid by illegals and still shows a $14K cost.
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/05/the-fiscal-cost-of-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-to-the-us-taxpayer
Sand
Footballguy
And they cost about 10 billion a year in services. That is a pretty poor return and nowhere near the net benefit you tout. It's more akin to a monetary bloodbath.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
snowmonkey501
Footballguy
tommyboy
Footballguy
the issue is that Obama has usurped the power of Congress to make law, by using Executive power to legalize 5M immigrants. IN this case it was because of Congressional "INACTION"
which is your precedent.
previous Presidents have made executive decree's to resolve Congressional "ACTION", ie to tweak unintended results of laws Congress passed.
so assuming you keep this new power to make law via the Executive, then all future Presidents can use this new power to make law and then claim it was due to Congressional "inaction".
timschochet
Footballguy
Well I tried anyhow. The article was filled with stats and studies and stated very plainly that illegals will never take out more from the system than they pay in. It seems to me that any reasonable person would conclude that the 100 billion paid into Social Security by itself alone pays for all the costs of illegals and then some , even in California, even if we accept Sand's 10 billion a year figure (which I'm highly skeptical about). But I know I'm never gonna convince most people that the benefits far outweigh the costs. It's true though and always has been.
snowmonkey501
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
if Fatness is correct in his posts then your assertion is false. Reagan did not issue an order to correct unintended consequences; the consequences were deliberate and fully intended, and Reagan issued an order to reverse it. So he is the one who set the precedent not Obama.
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