squistion
Footballguy
It's not. Not one person will be given voting rights as a result of this three year deferment on deportation. People are not be given citizenship and the right to vote.
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Obama To Announce Uncostitutional Amnesty (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Jim11
- Start date
The Commish
Footballguy
Certainly with you on this one Rich, but I went to find it, but i'm not sure this is the one Sammy was referring to. It's the "Gang of Eight" bill. You won't be surprised that the answer is "it depends".
The Commish
Footballguy
right...but not broken. in need of improving? sure.the part of it that allows people to come is incredibly back logged and inefficient.This can't be true because part of it allows people to come to this country. Are you in full onmode now?
timschochet
Footballguy
Which activities? And do you have a link for this? Because CNN said the opposite last night. In any case do you really believe the GOP is going to do any of this?
timschochet
Footballguy
this seems like fishing to me. Why don't you google this subject? There's plenty of info out there.what part of the policy is back logged and inefficent?the part of it that allows people to come is incredibly back logged and inefficient.This can't be true because part of it allows people to come to this country. Are you in full on
timschochet
Footballguy
OK. This all depends on your interpretation I guess.right...but not broken. in need of improving? sure.the part of it that allows people to come is incredibly back logged and inefficient.This can't be true because part of it allows people to come to this country. Are you in full on
jonessed
Footballguy
USCIS activities.I see no reason for them not to. Defunding USCIS functions has little to no impact on anything else.
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George Jefferson Airplane
Footballguy
Isn't this exactly what GW wanted to do? Didn't the Senate recently pass a bill on reform and the house blocked it?
Just like everything else in this current government, it seems they are so close but they fight just for the sake of fighting.
Just like everything else in this current government, it seems they are so close but they fight just for the sake of fighting.
jonessed
Footballguy
Bush didn't go through with it because the administration determined they didn't have the legal authority. He certainly wanted to.
Your opinions here are pretty dense. Odumbo just set precedent for any president to act over congressional 'inaction'. Here is a newsflash for tools like you...Congress is not required to act on anything. If people do not like that, we have a system for this, vote them out.
Not only that, but this idiot did not even grant a full amnesty and they are not getting many benefits. Do you think they will be happy with this? They will not. I will give it until Monday until the whining starts. Meanwhile, this idiot has done nothing but create a huge problem. Believe it or not, but there are is actually a sizable Republican contingent who support amnesty in some form. That probably is not happening now, as Obdubo has done nothing here but totally inflamed the far right wing of the party. The sad part about this is that he did it deliberately. This is divisiveness at it worst and anyone who agrees with this is a tool of the highest order.
jamny
Footballguy
snowmonkey501
Footballguy
the president said the system needs to be fixed. you said it was backlogged and inefficent. how do you fix a backlog and inefficency?this seems like fishing to me. Why don't you google this subject? There's plenty of info out there.what part of the policy is back logged and inefficent?the part of it that allows people to come is incredibly back logged and inefficient.This can't be true because part of it allows people to come to this country. Are you in full on
timschochet
Footballguy
i love it when anti illegal immigration conservatives think they know what Latino Americans are thinking . Here's a tip: the vast majority of Latino Americans are going to absolutely adore what Obama did last night , and absolutely detest the GOP's reaction to it.
Exactly.....this is why Obama's actions are so idiotic. This does not solve the problem in any way shape or form. Not only that, but it will not survive the courts. The Supreme Court has always been protective of its power against the other branches, no matter what the party. This will be no different. It wil;l be struck down and all of these people he 'helped' then will be screwed. He does not care about them though.
tommyboy
Footballguy
mcintyre1
Footballguy
jamny
Footballguy
My point exactly. Yet again, Obama has done a masterful job of taking the spotlight away from Republican victories. All because of the Republican refusal to vote on this in the House.
F Boehner.
timschochet
Footballguy
Again please look it up. Or otherwise make your point which I suspect you really want to do . I predict that your point is that illegal immigrants, being "illegal" , aren't really part of our immigration issues . Which is completely false . But go ahead and make the argument.the president said the system needs to be fixed. you said it was backlogged and inefficent. how do you fix a backlog and inefficency?this seems like fishing to me. Why don't you google this subject? There's plenty of info out there.what part of the policy is back logged and inefficent?the part of it that allows people to come is incredibly back logged and inefficient.This can't be true because part of it allows people to come to this country. Are you in full on
timschochet
Footballguy
nothing to do with Boehner. Everything to do with the conservative base .
George Jefferson Airplane
Footballguy
Might have been more to do with him not wanting to anger people in his own party? I don't know the answer but it seems that may have played a role.
All Latinos think alike? That is racist.
All conservatives think alike? That is just plain dumb.
Whatever. I am not going even argue this because it is like talking to a brick wall on both sides. We will see what comes of this. I am of the opinion that this will ruin Obama and also sink the next Democratic nominee. So, in hindsight, I guess I should be pretty happy about this.
squistion
Footballguy
Stopped reading there. No one (either left or right) who makes up cutesy nicknames for politicians, usually has anything worthwhile to say or add to any discussion.
jamny
Footballguy
jonessed
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
This wouldn't be so offensive if he was a little less uppity and if he was actually, y'know, born here.
Yes....It is sort of funny that they cannot foresee how this is all going to blow up in their face down the line.
Parrothead
Footballguy
what are peoples thoughts on meeting the "requirements"- ie providing identification like a birth certificate, etc? no ID, no amnesty
jonessed
Footballguy
He wanted to do it. His legal team said he didn't have the authority. Obama didn't even believe he had the authority until recently.
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George Jefferson Airplane
Footballguy
snowmonkey501
Footballguy
if the problems are as you say then how do you fix them? how do you fix "backlog and inefficiency"? I asked which part was broken you said all of it.Again please look it up. Or otherwise make your point which I suspect you really want to do . I predict that your point is that illegal immigrants, being "illegal" , aren't really part of our immigration issues . Which is completely false . But go ahead and make the argument.the president said the system needs to be fixed. you said it was backlogged and inefficent. how do you fix a backlog and inefficency?this seems like fishing to me. Why don't you google this subject? There's plenty of info out there.what part of the policy is back logged and inefficent?the part of it that allows people to come is incredibly back logged and inefficient.This can't be true because part of it allows people to come to this country. Are you in full on
seems to me that youre the one thats fishing.
Dude...this is not really a discussion. It is more like a steady stream of thinly veiled insults.
Jim11
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/1f5e041c11294c318d11779be7d22119/reagan-bush-also-acted-alone-shield-immigrants
—1986. Congress and Reagan enacted a sweeping overhaul that gave legal status to up to 3 million immigrants without authorization to be in the country, if they had come to the U.S. before 1982. Spouses and children who could not meet that test did not qualify, which incited protests that the new law was breaking up families.
—1987. Early efforts in Congress to amend the law to cover family members failed. Reagan's Immigration and Naturalization Service commissioner announced that minor children of parents granted amnesty by the law would get protection from deportation. Spouses and children of couples in which one parent qualified for amnesty but the other did not remained subject to deportation, leading to efforts to amend the 1986 law.
—1989. By a sweeping 81-17 vote, the Senate in July voted to prohibit deportations of family members of immigrants covered by the 1986 law. The House failed to act.
—1990. In February, President George H.W. Bush, acting through the Immigration and Naturalization Service, established a "family fairness" in which family members living with a legalizing immigrant and who were in the U.S. before passage of the 1986 law were granted protection from deportation and authorized to seek employment. The administration estimated up to 1.5 million people would be covered by the policy. Congress in October passed a broader immigration law that made the protections permanent.
—2012. In July, the Obama administration announces a new policy curbing deportations for certain immigrants brought illegally to the country as kids. The policy, Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA), applies to people younger than 30 who were brought to the U.S. before they turned 16 and meet other criteria such as graduating high school. It has now granted two-year deportation reprieves and work permits to nearly 600,000 people.
—2013-2014 (Congress). After months of work, the Senate in June 2013 passes, 68-32, a huge immigration overhaul bill that includes a path to citizenship for immigrants who meet strict criteria. The House fails to act. In a televised interview with Telemundo, Obama says expanding the DACA program to cover the parents of children allowed to remain in the country under the program "would be ignoring the law in a way that I think would be very difficult to defend legally. So that's not an option."
—2014 Frustrated by Congress' inability to act on immigration, Obama announces in June that he'll use executive powers to address other elements of the flawed immigration system. Like Bush, Obama is expected to extend deportation protections to families of U.S. citizens or permanent residents. Obama's anticipated action would not award legal status, but it would offer temporary protection from deportation to up to 5 million people, as well as the possibility of obtaining a work permit. He delayed action until after Election Day. On Monday, Democratic leaders sent a letter to Obama saying they strongly support his plans to take executive action on immigration.
—1986. Congress and Reagan enacted a sweeping overhaul that gave legal status to up to 3 million immigrants without authorization to be in the country, if they had come to the U.S. before 1982. Spouses and children who could not meet that test did not qualify, which incited protests that the new law was breaking up families.
—1987. Early efforts in Congress to amend the law to cover family members failed. Reagan's Immigration and Naturalization Service commissioner announced that minor children of parents granted amnesty by the law would get protection from deportation. Spouses and children of couples in which one parent qualified for amnesty but the other did not remained subject to deportation, leading to efforts to amend the 1986 law.
—1989. By a sweeping 81-17 vote, the Senate in July voted to prohibit deportations of family members of immigrants covered by the 1986 law. The House failed to act.
—1990. In February, President George H.W. Bush, acting through the Immigration and Naturalization Service, established a "family fairness" in which family members living with a legalizing immigrant and who were in the U.S. before passage of the 1986 law were granted protection from deportation and authorized to seek employment. The administration estimated up to 1.5 million people would be covered by the policy. Congress in October passed a broader immigration law that made the protections permanent.
—2012. In July, the Obama administration announces a new policy curbing deportations for certain immigrants brought illegally to the country as kids. The policy, Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA), applies to people younger than 30 who were brought to the U.S. before they turned 16 and meet other criteria such as graduating high school. It has now granted two-year deportation reprieves and work permits to nearly 600,000 people.
—2013-2014 (Congress). After months of work, the Senate in June 2013 passes, 68-32, a huge immigration overhaul bill that includes a path to citizenship for immigrants who meet strict criteria. The House fails to act. In a televised interview with Telemundo, Obama says expanding the DACA program to cover the parents of children allowed to remain in the country under the program "would be ignoring the law in a way that I think would be very difficult to defend legally. So that's not an option."
—2014 Frustrated by Congress' inability to act on immigration, Obama announces in June that he'll use executive powers to address other elements of the flawed immigration system. Like Bush, Obama is expected to extend deportation protections to families of U.S. citizens or permanent residents. Obama's anticipated action would not award legal status, but it would offer temporary protection from deportation to up to 5 million people, as well as the possibility of obtaining a work permit. He delayed action until after Election Day. On Monday, Democratic leaders sent a letter to Obama saying they strongly support his plans to take executive action on immigration.
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
pretty sure it had everything to do with Boehner being fearful that if he brought it to a vote he would kiss his leadership position goodbye.
this seems to be a losing issue for the Republicans and they seem to be falling right into Obama's trap of getting all lathered up. The Republicans would be wise to tone down the rhetoric and still express their concerns over the legality of the President's action but mostly they should call Obama's bluff and work on drafting an immigration bill that they can pass very early in the next session. Let the courts sort out Obama's actions are legal.
Sand
Footballguy
Well, there are two parts to what he said. First that he was putting down in executive action what the administration has been doing for 6 years already - that deportations would be sharply curtailed. This flies in the face of "he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed", but he's been ignoring that particular part of Constitution exists for a while and it will be very hard to reel that back in. The second was the work permit item, which he was very vague on and it will be very interesting to see what details leak out here. Whatever this new piece of paper is it hasn't been approved by Congress, who has sole purview over immigration policy, so that part seems to be a difficult road to hoe for the admin.
I also have to sit back and be amazed at what this President has said and what he has done. Over the last few years the "income inequality" meme has been paraded around by this administration ad nauseum. Yet they have expressly and knowingly done exactly the opposite of improving this. By keeping rates incredibly low the super rich, who have first access to this cheap, easy money, have made huge, massive bank over the course of this admin. Now the President is doing his best to crush the wage structure of the low end of the scale and further widen this divide. It boggles.
squistion
Footballguy
Congrats on the thread title Jim. It is neither amnesty nor unconstitutional, but outside of that you nailed it (and too bad you misspelled unconstitutional).
timschochet
Footballguy
The point Tommyboy brings up about the drivers licenses is an important one. The public seems to be very conflicted about illegal immigration. Recent polling suggests that 70% of the public favors a path to citizenship for illegals. That makes Latino activists and progressives think that the public is on their side on this issue. However, whenever the public gets to actually vote on this question they reject anything that would give the illegals any rights or privileges, as they did in Oregon, which is a very blue state. This in turn convinces conservatives that the public is on their side .
Personally I have always believed that the public leans much more toward the conservative point of view on this subject and always will. But it doesn't help conservatives much because Dems and independents who are anti- illegal generally don't prioritize it over other issues the way many conservatives do.
Personally I have always believed that the public leans much more toward the conservative point of view on this subject and always will. But it doesn't help conservatives much because Dems and independents who are anti- illegal generally don't prioritize it over other issues the way many conservatives do.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't think Obama ever used the words "unconstitutional". He said that as President he didn't have the power to do it. He was either wrong (or right) or being deceptive when he said that. Who knows? Either way, it's an embarrassing moment for him. But it doesn't really affect the question of whether or not what he did last night was constitutional. On the news channels last night there were some excellent arguments on both sides. I lean toward it being legal though I am certainly no expert. The whole executive order thing has always seemed a gray area in the law. I was (and remain) uncomfortable with the President assuming this much authority, but that's a feeling which has no bearing on the legality.
In any case it's a moot point because the Republicans will do nothing to challenge the legality other than rhetoric, IMO.
In any case it's a moot point because the Republicans will do nothing to challenge the legality other than rhetoric, IMO.
Gary Coal Man
Footballguy
True
Likely true.
This guy, however, is going to challenge the legality of Obama's immigration plan...
Arizona's Arpaio sues Obama on immigration
Rich Conway
Footballguy
The next GOP president will up the ante by doing something the Democrats don't like.
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timschochet
Footballguy
As far as John Boehner goes, I'm not a huge fan (who is?) but he was in an impossible situation here. The Republican establishment, of which he is a member, desperately want to resolve this issue in order to avoid alienating Latino Americans. In addition, they are heavily tied to the Chamber of Commerce, which has always been strongly in favor of a continual free flow of labor from our southern borders, and favors a path to citizenship. But the conservative base is not in favor of any of these things.
Beginning with the 2010 elections, Republicans promoted more conservative (Tea Party) candidates for House seats, seeing it as a means to energize the Republican base and to take control of the House of Representatives, which they managed to do. But you reap what you sew: ever since then, John Boehner has had to manage a caucus filled with people who want nothing to do with the way Boehner, as an establishment Republican, was used to doing business. On this issue in particular conservatives stated in no uncertain terms that if he brought the immigration reform package to a vote, he would have lost his role as speaker,. and been replaced by a much more hard line conservative. Which Boehner recognized would have been a national calamity for the GOP. So Boehner chose not to bring the bill up.
Beginning with the 2010 elections, Republicans promoted more conservative (Tea Party) candidates for House seats, seeing it as a means to energize the Republican base and to take control of the House of Representatives, which they managed to do. But you reap what you sew: ever since then, John Boehner has had to manage a caucus filled with people who want nothing to do with the way Boehner, as an establishment Republican, was used to doing business. On this issue in particular conservatives stated in no uncertain terms that if he brought the immigration reform package to a vote, he would have lost his role as speaker,. and been replaced by a much more hard line conservative. Which Boehner recognized would have been a national calamity for the GOP. So Boehner chose not to bring the bill up.
timschochet
Footballguy
Jim11
Footballguy
Obama's latest lies.
https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2014/11/top-10-lies-from-obamas-nullification-speech
Lie #1: Every President has Taken Executive Action on Immigration: No other president has ever issued an amnesty of anywhere near this scope, created it out of thin air, or built it upon a prior executive action instead of a statute. And in the case of President Eisenhower, his executive action was to deport 80,000 illegal immigrants.
Lie #2: Illegal Immigrant Crossings are Down: Actually, this is the third straight year that border crossings have gone up, not to mention the entirely new wave from Central America.
Lie #3: It does not grant citizenship or the right to stay here permanently: Under the royal edict, the work permits can be renewed every three years, and most likely, they will be renewed at the same 99.5% acceptance rate as DACA applications. And once they get Social Security cards, they are going nowhere. So yes, this is permanent. And yes, they will be able to get green cards, which puts them on an automatic path to citizenship: “we are reducing the time that families are separated while obtaining their green cards. Undocumented immigrants who are immediate relatives of lawful permanent residents or sons or daughters of US citizens can apply to get a waiver if a visa is available.”
Lie #4: Only 5 Million: Make no mistake about it. Obama’s illegal amnesty will not just apply to 5 million individuals. It will apply by default to all 12-20 million illegals in the country as well as the millions more who will now come here to enjoy the permanent cessation of borders and sovereignty. Given the numerous options for people to become eligible for amnesty, ICE and CPB will be restricted from enforcing the law against anyone because each individual has to be afforded the opportunity to present themselves and apply for status. There is no way those who were here for less than 5 years will be deported and there’s no way the new people rushing the border and overstaying their visas will be repatriated.
Lie #5: Deport Felons: Obama claims he is going to focus on deporting felons. Yet, he has done the opposite. 36,000 convicted criminal aliens were released last year, 80,000 criminal aliens encountered by ICE weren’t even placed into deportation proceedings, 167,000 criminal aliens who were ordered deported are still at large, 341,000 criminal aliens released by ICE without deportation orders are known to be free and at large in the US. Again, this is cessation of deportations for everyone. They are leaving no illegal behind.
...the bureaucracy will be flooded with applications of illegals, and those are the applications that will be prioritized, those families who came here legally will have to wait longer to be united. There is no longer an incentive to enter the legal immigration process.
Lie #6: Don’t deport families: Obama is playing the family card. It works like this: people are encouraged to come here illegally, Obama grants them amnesty, then their relatives all get to come, even though they would otherwise be ineligible under public charge laws. Yet, at the same time, because the bureaucracy will be flooded with applications of illegals, and those are the applications that will be prioritized, those families who came here legally will have to wait longer to be united. There is no longer an incentive to enter the legal immigration process.
Lie #7: They have to pay taxes to stay: Aside from the absurd notion that they would turn someone away for not paying taxes, almost every one of these illegal immigrants lacks a high enough income to incur a net positive tax liability. Hence, by paying taxes, he actually means they will collect refundable tax credits!
Lie #8: Background Checks: Just the thought of a criminal background check of people coming from the third world on a lawless program is a joke. But the reality is that Obama has already done this with DACA, and 99.5% of applications were approved, including those of criminals.
Lie #9: Cracking Down on Illegal Immigration at the Border: Obama promises to beef up resources at the border. But as we’ve seen over the past few years, what good are more agents if they are explicitly intimidated into turning a blind eye. Moreover, there is no promise to build a fence or implement a visa tracking system, so any talk of enforcement is an insult to our intelligence. Moreover, he is unilaterally abolishing the Secure Communities program, the only successful interior enforcement program left after he abolished 287g state-federal cooperation in 2012. At a time when we are facing threats from Islamic terror and deadly diseases, this invitation to the world will present a security nightmare.
Lie #10: Scripture tells us, we shall not oppress a stranger: It’s great to see him quoting the Bible for once, but nice try. There are different variations of this verse throughout the Bible, but each one uses the Hebrew word “Ger” to describe what Obama translates as “stranger.” A Ger is a convert to Judaism. The commandment was not referring to people who illegally migrate to a nation state. And more importantly, it is downright offensive to Americans to insinuate that not granting them benefits is tantamount to oppression, especially given the fact that they have been the biggest recipients of our generous legal system. Moreover, if there is oppression taking place it is to the American taxpayer and worker and those who suffer from gangs like MS-13.
https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2014/11/top-10-lies-from-obamas-nullification-speech
Lie #1: Every President has Taken Executive Action on Immigration: No other president has ever issued an amnesty of anywhere near this scope, created it out of thin air, or built it upon a prior executive action instead of a statute. And in the case of President Eisenhower, his executive action was to deport 80,000 illegal immigrants.
Lie #2: Illegal Immigrant Crossings are Down: Actually, this is the third straight year that border crossings have gone up, not to mention the entirely new wave from Central America.
Lie #3: It does not grant citizenship or the right to stay here permanently: Under the royal edict, the work permits can be renewed every three years, and most likely, they will be renewed at the same 99.5% acceptance rate as DACA applications. And once they get Social Security cards, they are going nowhere. So yes, this is permanent. And yes, they will be able to get green cards, which puts them on an automatic path to citizenship: “we are reducing the time that families are separated while obtaining their green cards. Undocumented immigrants who are immediate relatives of lawful permanent residents or sons or daughters of US citizens can apply to get a waiver if a visa is available.”
Lie #4: Only 5 Million: Make no mistake about it. Obama’s illegal amnesty will not just apply to 5 million individuals. It will apply by default to all 12-20 million illegals in the country as well as the millions more who will now come here to enjoy the permanent cessation of borders and sovereignty. Given the numerous options for people to become eligible for amnesty, ICE and CPB will be restricted from enforcing the law against anyone because each individual has to be afforded the opportunity to present themselves and apply for status. There is no way those who were here for less than 5 years will be deported and there’s no way the new people rushing the border and overstaying their visas will be repatriated.
Lie #5: Deport Felons: Obama claims he is going to focus on deporting felons. Yet, he has done the opposite. 36,000 convicted criminal aliens were released last year, 80,000 criminal aliens encountered by ICE weren’t even placed into deportation proceedings, 167,000 criminal aliens who were ordered deported are still at large, 341,000 criminal aliens released by ICE without deportation orders are known to be free and at large in the US. Again, this is cessation of deportations for everyone. They are leaving no illegal behind.
...the bureaucracy will be flooded with applications of illegals, and those are the applications that will be prioritized, those families who came here legally will have to wait longer to be united. There is no longer an incentive to enter the legal immigration process.
Lie #6: Don’t deport families: Obama is playing the family card. It works like this: people are encouraged to come here illegally, Obama grants them amnesty, then their relatives all get to come, even though they would otherwise be ineligible under public charge laws. Yet, at the same time, because the bureaucracy will be flooded with applications of illegals, and those are the applications that will be prioritized, those families who came here legally will have to wait longer to be united. There is no longer an incentive to enter the legal immigration process.
Lie #7: They have to pay taxes to stay: Aside from the absurd notion that they would turn someone away for not paying taxes, almost every one of these illegal immigrants lacks a high enough income to incur a net positive tax liability. Hence, by paying taxes, he actually means they will collect refundable tax credits!
Lie #8: Background Checks: Just the thought of a criminal background check of people coming from the third world on a lawless program is a joke. But the reality is that Obama has already done this with DACA, and 99.5% of applications were approved, including those of criminals.
Lie #9: Cracking Down on Illegal Immigration at the Border: Obama promises to beef up resources at the border. But as we’ve seen over the past few years, what good are more agents if they are explicitly intimidated into turning a blind eye. Moreover, there is no promise to build a fence or implement a visa tracking system, so any talk of enforcement is an insult to our intelligence. Moreover, he is unilaterally abolishing the Secure Communities program, the only successful interior enforcement program left after he abolished 287g state-federal cooperation in 2012. At a time when we are facing threats from Islamic terror and deadly diseases, this invitation to the world will present a security nightmare.
Lie #10: Scripture tells us, we shall not oppress a stranger: It’s great to see him quoting the Bible for once, but nice try. There are different variations of this verse throughout the Bible, but each one uses the Hebrew word “Ger” to describe what Obama translates as “stranger.” A Ger is a convert to Judaism. The commandment was not referring to people who illegally migrate to a nation state. And more importantly, it is downright offensive to Americans to insinuate that not granting them benefits is tantamount to oppression, especially given the fact that they have been the biggest recipients of our generous legal system. Moreover, if there is oppression taking place it is to the American taxpayer and worker and those who suffer from gangs like MS-13.
timschochet
Footballguy
Isn't he still investigating Obama's birth certificate? Damn what a busy man Joe is.
Jim11
Footballguy
What next GOP president? Who's going to beat Hillary in 2016/2020? And after that, the Dem. base will be overwhelming.
![[icon]](/data/avatars/s/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}