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Obamacare: Obama just straight up lied to you, in your face (6 Viewers)

Yup. That's the 3rd major study showing just how much more these new policies are compared to the ones that they are replacing because the ACA mandated that they be canceled. But the increased cost is "OK" because of subsidies, or other people's money. The problem with socialism, though, is that at some point you run out of other people's money.....

 
My gf is dealing with an ACA nightmare right now. This legislation is so kid unfriendly. Seems like the system can't handle adding kids to individual subsidized coverage mid year. No one at the marketplace knows how to help. Looking at two more kids going from the ranks of insured to uninsured in 5 days. My son still remains uninsured awaiting a medicaid response/denial.

 
So I'm changing jobs, and with that comes picking a new healthcare plan. Now, at my old job, I could cover myself, my wife and children for about $140 per check. This is a county lifeguard job, but still it's pretty nice as far as benefits go. Now with this new job as a high school math teacher, the plan they offer to cover me, my wife and kids is $476 per check. The reason for that is the school board decided that they didn't want to cover the 50% they used to provide for the dependents of the employee on the plan. This means that I'm trying to find something cheaper, but even the most basic healthcare plans that I've seen so far will run me about $460 a month. So the conclusion I'm forced to draw is that either Obama deluded himself into thinking that his plan was a good one, or he lied and now healthcare charges are going to go through the roof. I do feel that people should have access to basic healthcare, but forcing people to get it isn't the answer, and neither was the way it was rolled out. I get the distinct impression that these problems are going to snowball quickly.
The lefty mouth-breathers on this forum would say that you're lying about this. There is no possible way your insurance is going up - and in the off chance it does it's the insurance companies fault. And you're probably a greedy, rich ******* anyways so you get what you deserve.
No, I'd simply suggest that he's likely comparing apples to oranges.
I GOTS MINE!!!!!!!!!!!

 
I'm interested to know about the option you have with the kids for only $15-20 a month. Would they then have their own deductibles and such separate from the one for you and your wife? That might not be worth the $125 a month savings ($105 a month if it's $20 per child).....or do you get two checks a month at the new job? If so, just double those figures. Either way, neither are as good as what you had - plus you'll likely have to start with a brand new deductible from $0 at the new place.
Here in Florida, it's called Kid Care, and the website says we may have to pay some "small charges or co-payments for some services." It's not an ideal situation, but I'm looking at my options, and blaming Obama for such a harebrained scam that most of his healthcare plan has apparently become.
Not surprised. Blaming govt for all of your problems is an actual platform in today's Republican Party.
I GOTS MINE!!!!!!!!!!!

 
Wow, no posts in 48 hours? I know it's just you dead-enders in here, but still. Guess you're losing steam. :shrug:

Meanwhile, Virginia state legislators are breaking into the governor's offices to give him less time to consider his budgetary options for expanding Medicaid. Classy!

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/what-occurred-here-sunday-is-unacceptable/article_bf0d759e-fbde-11e3-932b-001a4bcf6878.html
Here you go!

Way to crush the GDP for its worst quarter in 5 years. I guess we can blame it on all that snow from the global warming.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fgdps-obamacare-downgrade-1403738610&ei=9tCtU7W7O8T5oASuzYLoCg&usg=AFQjCNGMHaUC5LVM-ypOLsqHu8SXNM_0-w&sig2=cbu_yc2bueLUxP6urbLo0A&bvm=bv.69837884,d.cGU

 
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Wow, no posts in 48 hours? I know it's just you dead-enders in here, but still. Guess you're losing steam. :shrug:

Meanwhile, Virginia state legislators are breaking into the governor's offices to give him less time to consider his budgetary options for expanding Medicaid. Classy!

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/what-occurred-here-sunday-is-unacceptable/article_bf0d759e-fbde-11e3-932b-001a4bcf6878.html
Here you go!

Way to crush the GDP for its worst quarter in 5 years. I guess we can blame it on all that snow from the global warming.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fgdps-obamacare-downgrade-1403738610&ei=9tCtU7W7O8T5oASuzYLoCg&usg=AFQjCNGMHaUC5LVM-ypOLsqHu8SXNM_0-w&sig2=cbu_yc2bueLUxP6urbLo0A&bvm=bv.69837884,d.cGU
If you want to attribute a large reduction in HC spending to the ACA, I'm pretty sure the supporters would take that. Regardless of the relative impact to GDP in any given quarter.

 
Wow, no posts in 48 hours? I know it's just you dead-enders in here, but still. Guess you're losing steam. :shrug:

Meanwhile, Virginia state legislators are breaking into the governor's offices to give him less time to consider his budgetary options for expanding Medicaid. Classy!

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/what-occurred-here-sunday-is-unacceptable/article_bf0d759e-fbde-11e3-932b-001a4bcf6878.html
Here you go!

Way to crush the GDP for its worst quarter in 5 years. I guess we can blame it on all that snow from the global warming.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fgdps-obamacare-downgrade-1403738610&ei=9tCtU7W7O8T5oASuzYLoCg&usg=AFQjCNGMHaUC5LVM-ypOLsqHu8SXNM_0-w&sig2=cbu_yc2bueLUxP6urbLo0A&bvm=bv.69837884,d.cGU
LOL. Do you even have any idea what you're saying here?

 
Wow, no posts in 48 hours? I know it's just you dead-enders in here, but still. Guess you're losing steam. :shrug:

Meanwhile, Virginia state legislators are breaking into the governor's offices to give him less time to consider his budgetary options for expanding Medicaid. Classy!

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/what-occurred-here-sunday-is-unacceptable/article_bf0d759e-fbde-11e3-932b-001a4bcf6878.html
Here you go!

Way to crush the GDP for its worst quarter in 5 years. I guess we can blame it on all that snow from the global warming.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fgdps-obamacare-downgrade-1403738610&ei=9tCtU7W7O8T5oASuzYLoCg&usg=AFQjCNGMHaUC5LVM-ypOLsqHu8SXNM_0-w&sig2=cbu_yc2bueLUxP6urbLo0A&bvm=bv.69837884,d.cGU
LOL. Do you even have any idea what you're saying here?
Of course I do.

I thought the article was pretty clear but I will try to dumb it down for you.

"Slow growth is the great tragedy of the Obama Presidency, and one cause is that he put his social and political priorities above the revival of economic growth."

"Contrary to this upbeat assessment, America experienced the worst economic recovery of postwar history under the Obama administration."

"...but the first quarter plunge shows what happens when you try to "transform" one sixth of the U.S. economy. The turmoil has damaging consequences. And such damage is all the more risky in an economy that is already growing well below the pace of a normal expansion."

Here is some more info that might clear up the bigger picture for you. The US has dropped from 1st to 5th under Obama in the GCI, this administration pretty much stinking it up.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2012/09/04/world-economists-confirm-americas-decline-under-obama/

 
My gf is dealing with an ACA nightmare right now. This legislation is so kid unfriendly. Seems like the system can't handle adding kids to individual subsidized coverage mid year. No one at the marketplace knows how to help. Looking at two more kids going from the ranks of insured to uninsured in 5 days. My son still remains uninsured awaiting a medicaid response/denial.
She didn't qualify for a CIC?

 
I'm really having trouble buying the argument, made both here and in the unemployment thread, that Obamacare is a key factor in slow economic growth. The ACA has barely begun and it's impact hasn't even touched employer based healthcare. You guys really believe that it is playing a significant role in the job growth numbers? It makes no sense to me.

 
I'm really having trouble buying the argument, made both here and in the unemployment thread, that Obamacare is a key factor in slow economic growth. The ACA has barely begun and it's impact hasn't even touched employer based healthcare. You guys really believe that it is playing a significant role in the job growth numbers? It makes no sense to me.
here, let a pro explain it to you:

[SIZE=12pt]The New Normal of Healthcare Spending[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]On October 6, 2013, I penned a rather lengthy discussion of the economic impact of the Affordable Care Act. I still think it was one of the better pieces I have written. You can read it herehttp://email.mauldineconomics.com/w...E800BZKitmCNpWtd1Rq86Q7wZOJYUo5HlWDWCCg-3D-3D. I offered an analysis of what healthcare will look like within a few years. Essentially, we are moving to a three-tiered system. Somewhere between 3 to 5% of people will have what is coming to be known as concierge care, another 20% or so will have what we think of as traditional insurance, and the remaining 75% will get by with some form of government-mandated and -controlled healthcare (with high deductibles and increasing costs).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I titled the letter I wrote back in October “The Road to a New Medical Order.” Business Insider,[/SIZE] which posts my letter each week (a surprising number of people think I actually write for them, which is fine by me, I guess) generally tries to come up with impactful and somewhat controversial headlines to attract readers. Their headline over my piece was “Obama Care Will Change Everything – And I Think It Might Cause a Recession.” And yes, buried deep in the article I did write:

When I am asked what keeps me up at night about our economy, my ready answer for the past few months has been the unknown transition costs associated with the ACA. I hope Jack Rivkin is right and that the transition to Obamacare proves to be just another Y2K. I truly believe that healthcare will be significantly better in 10 years, largely due to advances in technology, but also as we streamline our healthcare delivery. So I’m a long-term optimist, though I have to confess that, in the short term, which would be through the last half of 2014, I am quite concerned that dislocating 1 to 2% of the economy could be enough to push us into recession. I have nothing factual to base that on – no inverted yield curve, no evident bubble getting ready to burst – so I will stop far short of a prediction. Let’s just say that these issues need to be right up front on our radar screens. And it wouldn't hurt to keep our fingers crossed.

[SIZE=12pt]Let’s run through a quick summary of my analysis then – which is the same as how I see things today. We are going to reduce the amount of money we spend on healthcare by around 1% of GDP a year for the next four years, or about 5% per year in actual reductions. While right-thinking economists will point out that that money will be spent elsewhere, and they are correct, my concern was – and it is evidently turning out to be pretty correct – that the transition will be messy. I simply do not believe that you can change the “plumbing” of how healthcare dollars are spent, totally change the incentive structure, and demand more service for 20% fewer dollars while reducing the number of workers at hospitals, without serious short-term dislocations. [/SIZE]Like we saw last quarter.

Will all this wash out over the next few years? Absolutely. We are not on some permanent healthcare spending death march where quarter by quarter healthcare spending will keep dropping. It is just, to borrow a phrase from my friend Mohamed El-Erian, that we are entering into a New Normal of Healthcare Spending. And eventually that money that we are not spending on healthcare will get spent on something else, and those people that are not employed in the healthcare industry will find other jobs or end up taking less pay for doing the same job. But it is the turmoil created in the midst of that process that is going to create some ups and downs in the economy (more on that later).

I have regular conversations with numerous friends about what’s happening in the healthcare world, as I think that is where the real action is. For an economist, this is a wonderful experiment in incentive structures. And if you are an economist worth your salt, you know that economics is all about incentives. Individuals have an incentive to maximize their healthcare services and reduce their actual out-of-pocket expenses. Healthcare businesses have an incentive to make sure that expenses don’t exceed revenues. And the ACA is nothing if it is not an enormous incentive-changing machine.

Jack Rivkin sent me a note yesterday detailing a conversation he had recently with a healthcare provider. (I’ll remove names, just in case.)

Had a great 3 hour dinner discussion in Chicago three weeks ago with the head of the … Hospital. He realizes he’s at the bottom of the food chain but is very excited about what is happening. First dinner with him was three years ago when he was just beginning. He’s substantially changing the mix of his work force. That includes doctors who are now employees, not independent business folks. He has made the switch to outcomes-oriented medicine and is looking to become his own insurance company where he believes the big ripoff has been taking place. You should hear what he has to say about Blue Cross/Blue Shield and the people running it. He is tired of getting paid for procedures as opposed to outcomes, e.g., [he’s] down from using 7 different types of hip replacements to 3, based on those with the best long-term success. The doctors were told you either switch to what we have chosen or find another hospital. Actually “fired” some do ctors when the data showed what a high rate of repetition [their] patients had.

That complaint about insurance companies is showing up a lot. Here’s a section from a great little article by Jake Novak at CNBC called “An Obamacare bailout? Insurers already got one!”

Whether the ACA has actually helped more citizens than it's hurt has turned into a partisan war of statistics. That war will be waged for years to come. While I believe the new law will ultimately hurt more people than it helps, I realize those on the other side of the political spectrum will never agree with that assessment.

So let's not have that fruitless argument.

Instead let's focus on something the two major political camps can agree on, even if it is something that will make both of them very angry. Based on the non-partisan, hard numbers, the big winners in Obamacare America are… drumroll please… the insurance companies!

Yes, those greedy, heartless, bureaucratic, and anti-competitive health-insurance companies that President Obama kinda sorta blamed for his mother's death and Republicans blasted for seeking a bailout, and doctors accused of interfering with their medical judgment are all still alive and kicking in the 2014 world of the ACA.

Of course, insurance companies would simply argue that they’re playing by the rules and that they’re having a really difficult time making profits. Most insurance plans under Obamacare are going to rise significantly in cost later this year or next year.

Again, we find out something about incentives. It should be no surprise that a significant number of people with serious health issues who had no insurance have now signed up for the new healthcare programs. Lanhee Chen on the BloombergView site sees it this way:

At its base, the data show that people insured through the law’s exchanges have higher rates of serious medical conditions. Of the enrollees who have seen a doctor or other health-care provider in the first quarter of this year, 27 percent have significant medical problems, including diabetes, cancer, heart trouble and psychiatric conditions. That rate is substantially higher than that for patients in nonexchange market plans over the same period. And it’s more than double the rate of those who were able to hold onto their existing individual market insurance plans after President Barack Obama was forced to allow them to keep them.

This outcome should not surprise anyone. The law’s one-size-fits-all regulatory regime, which requires insurers to offer coverage to all comers and prohibits pricing of coverage based on an applicant’s health status, was bound to increase the number of relatively sicker people purchasing insurance through the exchanges. Moreover, Obama’s executive action, which effectively allowed many people who had individual market plans to remain in them through at least 2016, bifurcated the insurance markets such that healthier people remained in the plans they already had, while relatively sicker patients were left to acquire coverage through the Affordable Care Act’s exchanges.

Some of the bad risk in the exchanges has been offset by the enrollment of relatively healthy people who acquired coverage because of the law’s generous subsidies. Yet the numbers make clear that the exchanges remain a haven for those who may consume more medical services than others. (Bloomberg)

The ACA is going to be enormously contentious, as the rules are conflicting as to how insurers can make up their losses. President Obama would like to do it one way that he thinks is allowed within the rules, but there are many in Congress who think that’s a bailout for insurance companies and is against the rules. However it plays out, the ACA is going to cost someone, whether it’s taxpayers or those buying insurance, a great deal more money than initially budgeted. And the insurers will continue to be everybody’s favorite whipping boy.

As an aside, I find it an enormously intriguing idea that a healthcare hospital group is seriously thinking about setting up its own insurance company. You gotta love America, 100 different experiments going on at once. Some of them are sure to be game changers.

Why Healthcare Spending Went Down

My contacts in hospitals and elsewhere in the healthcare industry confirm that healthcare spending was down dramatically (though perhaps not quite the 6.4% in the data) in the first quarter. These same sources suggest that healthcare spending has rebounded during the second quarter. The first week of June was actually the best week ever for one major healthcare provider, but the overall trend is still for somewhat lower healthcare spending than last year.

So what happened in the first quarter? Evidently, several things. Number one, if you haven’t noticed, the deductibles for most of the ACA programs were quite high, often running as much as $5000 (which, for what it’s worth, is the deductible on my own insurance program – buying a lower deductible is significantly more expensive than simply paying the higher deductible. Go figure.)

The high deductibles were a shock to many people who were used to more-traditional health insurance. They postponed some services and started looking for transparency of pricing for the more expensive services. It is no longer uncommon for a patient to ask for a prescription for an MRI that they can take to another provider across the street who will charge them half of what the hospital provider will. If you’re paying it out of pocket, you begin to pay attention to what you’re paying. I think we should applaud that increase in transparency.

To those points, Dr. Toby Cosgrove, CEO of Cleveland Clinic, recently noted:

The entire healthcare system will have less money coming into it – we are taking costs out, so will all hospitals.... Obamacare is accelerating the process.... but this is due to transparency of costs and consumer with high-deductible plans. This is a huge social experiment involving almost 18% of GDP and 100% of people... this will take four to five years to shake out.”

Further, there were a lot of people who didn’t get Obamacare insurance in the first few months and had to wait until March or April for their insurance to kick in. Other people have lost their insurance inexplicably because insurers are losing control of their internal management systems amid all the turmoil. People are postponing what they can until their insurance kicks in or gets reinstated. Apparently, some of this has gotten sorted out in the second quarter, and healthcare spending is on a trajectory to the “new normal,” which may eventually be about 20% less than what we spend today.

Muddle Through Economy Redux

I still think the next shoe to drop may be in the third and fourth quarter when hospitals begin to realize that they have significant cash-flow problems. Estimates are that we have about 10% too many hospitals, and the creative destruction of the new healthcare system is going to relieve us of that excess. Only the strong and well-managed will survive. This is of course going to create turmoil in the whole healthcare employment world, etc., etc.

Further, Obamacare is the largest middle-class tax increase in history. Yes, enrollees are getting healthcare for their additional expenditures, but you get extra government services for an increase in regular taxes. Call it a premium or call it a tax, it still amounts to a reduction in disposable income for individuals and families. Tax increases have a negative effect on the economy equal to roughly three times their actual amount. We have gone over that research numerous times.

And that negative effect doesn’t come all at once but is actually spread out over about three years, so the Obamacare taxes will still be creating a headwind to growth this year and next.

Further, although the president has postponed some of the “features” of the ACA, such as the business mandates, they are going to kick in eventually. We’ve already seen a rather large rise in temporary employment as employers shed full-time employees so they don’t have to cover their insurance. We’re going to see more such unintentional consequences, because that’s just where the incentives are. This will of course create even more headwinds for growth and productivity.

We would have to achieve 3% GDP growth in each of the next three quarters simply to average 2% for 2014. If you go back and look at the chart on US real GDP growth, you will notice that we haven’t grown that consistently since the recovery began in 2009. GDP growth has been rather noisy.

We are at best in a slow-growth Muddle Through economy. And the problem is that consumers are getting hammered from all directions: incomes are roughly flat and core expenses are rising.

Returning to the BLS GDP report, we see that inflation was 1.3% in the first quarter as measured by personal consumption expenditures (PCE). One of the “checks and balances” I like to look at when thinking about PCE is what the Dallas Federal Reserve calls the “trimmed mean PCE inflation rate.” Basically they take all the components of inflation in the PCE (which is the Fed’s preferred measure of inflation) and remove the “outliers” (trimming them off, as it were) to smooth out the noise. And sure enough, when you go back and look at the one-month PCE inflation rates for the first quarter, 1.3% seems to be close enough for government work. But then when you look at the chart of what’s happened since then, you see a rather sharp rise in PCE. If that inflation shows up in the BLS statistics next quarter, in their first measure of Q2 GDP (which we will see in late July), it could reduce overall real GDP growth by about 1%. Just saying.
 
I'm really having trouble buying the argument, made both here and in the unemployment thread, that Obamacare is a key factor in slow economic growth. The ACA has barely begun and it's impact hasn't even touched employer based healthcare. You guys really believe that it is playing a significant role in the job growth numbers? It makes no sense to me.
Tim, I was going to make some smart alec answer about economics, but I decided to try to give you a real answer.

Bottom line uncertainty is bad for the economy.

Much of the economy is driven by consumer, business, international CONFIDENCE. The fact of the matter is Obama care has shaken up a large portion of the economy, no one knows the cost, or what the long term damage if any is going to be.

Just look at this thread, some people are predicting utter doom. Do you think those folks are going to be hiring additional workers, spending extra income or waiting until they know what is going on? Same with businesses.

In a slow economic recovery uncertainty is a crippling possibly lethal condition that can turn a recovery in to a recession or worse a full blown depression.

In response to "it makes no sense to me that businesses when faced with an unknown labor cost increase are being cautious with hiring" holding off on unneeded expenses and stockpiling reserves is what you do when an unknown is coming you prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

All of the details, pros and cons of Obamacare don't matter the turmoil and unknown is stagnating the economy.

 
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Over the last year or so many corporations & businesses have laid off workers, cut their hours, or delayed hiring, citing Obamacare as the main reason. Due to backlash from the administration they now do not list the reason.

No specific link to provide numbers, but its been mainstream news of who & how many jobs.

 
I'm really having trouble buying the argument, made both here and in the unemployment thread, that Obamacare is a key factor in slow economic growth. The ACA has barely begun and it's impact hasn't even touched employer based healthcare. You guys really believe that it is playing a significant role in the job growth numbers? It makes no sense to me.
Tim, I was going to make some smart alec answer about economics, but I decided to try to give you a real answer.

Bottom line uncertainty is bad for the economy.

Much of the economy is driven by consumer, business, international CONFIDENCE. The fact of the matter is Obama care has shaken up a large portion of the economy, no one knows the cost, or what the long term damage if any is going to be.

Just look at this thread, some people are predicting utter doom. Do you think those folks are going to be hiring additional workers, spending extra income or waiting until they know what is going on? Same with businesses.

In a slow economic recovery uncertainty is a crippling possibly lethal condition that can turn a recovery in to a recession or worse a full blown depression.

In response to "it makes no sense to me that businesses when faced with an unknown labor cost increase are being cautious with hiring" holding off on unneeded expenses and stockpiling reserves is what you do when an unknown is coming you prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

All of the details, pros and cons of Obamacare don't matter the turmoil and unknown is stagnating the economy.
 
Wasn't New York suppose to be an Obamacare success story (because it dropped the pre ACA rates so much only because they were already a guarantted issue/community rated state)?

So much for that....

http://nypost.com/2014/07/03/insurers-seeking-double-digit-increase-in-obamacare-premiums-in-ny/

"Insurance firms participating in New York’s ObamaCare health exchange are seeking double-digit hikes for patient medical premiums in 2015, new figures reviewed by The Post reveal.

The average hike sought by insurers for individual plans is 12 percent—but a number of firms serving large numbers of patients want to boost individual premiums by nearly 20 percent.

Leading the charge is Excellus Health Plan, which is seeking to sock more than 24,000 customers with a 19.7 percent hike.

The even larger MVP Health Plan, with nearly 33,000 customers, is seeking a 19 percent boost."

 
Didn't someone here suggest that I was crazy for even considering that a "death spiral" might actually be possible....?

http://www.fa-mag.com/news/obamacare-s-2015-outlook-goes-from-poor-to-critical-18427.html?section=40

"A nightmare for Affordable Care Act supporters has been the possibility that only the sick would be left to purchase insurance through its exchanges, driving premiums up and insurers out. While the law’s boosters have been quick to dismiss the possibility that such a so-called death spiral could occur, data published in the Wall Street Journal suggest that this chain of events may not be so far-fetched after all.

The findings are significant not just for what they say about how Obamacare is working now, but also for their impact on the political debate over its future.

At its base, the data show that people insured through the law’s exchanges have higher rates of serious medical conditions. Of the enrollees who have seen a doctor or other health-care provider in the first quarter of this year, 27 percent have significant medical problems, including diabetes, cancer, heart trouble and psychiatric conditions.

That rate is substantially higher than that for patients in non-exchange market plans over the same period. And it’s more than double the rate of those who were able to hold onto their existing individual market insurance plans after President Barack Obama was forced to allow them to keep them."

So the rate of those with serious medical conditions is more than double that of a group of people who were already getting 10% increases a year? Even if you say that there is "risk corridor" money there to help any potential increases, then you must admit that not only were the 39% or 41% or 49% increases not enough (depending on which study you put faith in, and I'm still waiting for someone to post a study showing anything else by the way), but also that the billions that they have already taxed from health insurance companies, which obviously trickle down to increasing everyone's premiums, was actually needed to get this thing to work - and when it's not there anymore in 3 years, premiums will have to go up even higher to account for those funds no longer coming in.

 
Hey look - i did google searches and found another loon on the interwebz who thinks i'm not crazy!
A loon called the Wall Street Journal, or Bloomberg, or Forbes? I haven't been keeping up, but are any of them TGunz approved?

Weren't you the loon who started an entire thread about the ACA "working" in New York because the average rate for the only 17,000 who had individual coverage in that state was going down? I guess if that was worth it's own thread (where you didn't even realize why there were only 17,000 people in the state with individual coverage - hint, it's exactly what the ACA is bringing nationwide) then a post about 57,000 New Yorkers all getting 19%+ increase is justified, correct?

When you set up the rules where everyone, regardless of health, can all jump in the same pool, then you're obviously going to get a larger proportion of folks with serious health conditions than you did when you had a "gatekeeper" (underwriting). That's exactly what this study shows us, that it's over twice that of the older pool. Back in the days of that "gatekeeper", people in this market were already getting 10% increases(which is really wrong, it's more like 7%) so it blew my mind when people thought that would shrink (or even stop all together like Tim who said that prices would go down), when you eliminate the gatekeeper. So now we have this pool that's over twice as sick as the pool it replaced, and you think insurance prices will go down? New York wants up to 20% increases. California only wants to increase "less than 20%", as if that's something to be proud of. Virginia's "enrollment weighted average" increase is 11.7%.

 
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I remember when this challenge was first started some here thought it wasn't going anywhere. Looks like it just might be. And this is not a right-wing conservative talking about it.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/why-obamacare-know-may-not-100000149.html
Wow, that's Laurence Tribe speaking, no conservative partisan he:

As early as this week, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C. may rule on a suit claiming that only those people who signed up for coverage through the 14-state insurance marketplaces are entitled to receive subsidies. Halbig vs. Burwell argues the subsidies can’t be provided to people in states that signed up for the 36 federal exchanges.

“It looks like the panel is quite divided over what to do with what might [have been] an inadvertent error in the legislation or might have been quite deliberate,” Tribe said. “But it’s very specific that only people that go onto a state exchange are eligible for the subsidies. And if that becomes the ultimate holding of the U.S. Supreme Court, where this is likely to end up – that’s going to have massive practical implications for the administrability of Obamacare.”

During the first six-month enrollment period, about 8 million people signed up for Obamacare through the state and federal exchanges, with most enrolling through federally operated exchanges. Eighty-seven percent of those who signed up for insurance on the federal exchanges received subsidies – or about 5.4 million people, according to analyses.

A definitive court ruling that subsidies provided through the federal exchanges are illegal would likely deliver a fatal blow to the insurance program – since it was designed to extend health coverage to millions of low-income people who couldn’t afford it without subsidies or tax credits. “I don’t have a crystal ball,” Tribe said in discussing the law’s chances should it reach the Supreme Court for yet another critical review. “But I wouldn’t bet the family farm on this coming out in a way that preserves Obamacare.”
Tribe, whose new book, Uncertain Justice, takes a deep dive into the Roberts court, said the plaintiffs make a strong argument. The legislative language is clear, he said, that the subsidies apply to exchanges established by states. Yet in drafting the law, Tribe said the administration “assumed that state exchanges would be the norm and federal exchanges would be a marginal, fallback position” – though it didn’t work out that way for a plethora of legal, administrative and political reasons.

“You could argue that as long as a state triggers it by asking the federal government to come in [and establish insurance exchanges] that it’s a state-established exchange, even though it’s a federally run exchange,” Tribe added. That might give some of the justices who aren’t strict constructionists some leeway in looking beyond the law’s specific language, he said.
It would also be totally typical for the USSC to grant a broad program constitutional muster but then dial back the breadth of that large program in other decisions.

And it would also allow Roberts a chance to get back on the other side of the fence.

:popcorn:

 
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No one knows how this thing is supposed to work, I guess: Obama unilaterally repeals Obamacare from the US territories

Looking for a place where Obamacare doesn't exist? Try moving to the U.S. Territories, where the Obama administration just provided a pretty big waiver from the law's major coverage provisions.

The Affordable Care Act's design dealt a pretty big problem to the territories. It required insurers there to comply with the law's major market reforms — guaranteed coverage, mandated benefits, limits on profits, etc. — without requiring residents to get coverage or providing subsidies to help them afford coverage. The territories — Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands — have been warning for years that would destroy their insurance markets. The individual mandate and the subsidies are the major ways the ACA tries to bring healthy people into the individual insurance market to balance out sick patients who can no longer be denied coverage.

That was until Wednesday, when the Obama administration told the territories that the coverage requirements actually don't apply to them. The exemption was posted on a Health and Human Services Web site on Thursday.

It's an apparent reversal from last July, when a HHS official told the territories there was nothing HHS could do to help them out.

"However meritorious your request might be, HHS is not authorized to choose which provisions...might apply to the territories," wrote Gary Cohen last year. He was then the head of the HHS office overseeing the ACA's insurance market reforms and left the department earlier this year.

What sparked the latest change? The definition of "state" in the Public Health Service Act indicates that the ACA market rules don't apply to the territories, HHS wrote. The department said group health plans in the territories must still comply with other requirements in the law, like the ban on lifetime and annual limits, a ban on rescission and a coverage of preventive benefits (which includes contraception coverage).

A spokesman for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which is overseeing ACA implementation, said the agency recognized that the territories’ insurers saw a greater share of sicker patients as a result of the way the law had been implemented there.


“The Department is committed to working with states and the U.S. territories in order to implement the health care law in a way that maximizes coverage options for consumers," the spokesman said. "As such, we are providing additional flexibility to the territories in order to implement the law in a way that recognizes their unique situations.”
 
No one knows how this thing is supposed to work, I guess: Obama unilaterally repeals Obamacare from the US territories

Looking for a place where Obamacare doesn't exist? Try moving to the U.S. Territories, where the Obama administration just provided a pretty big waiver from the law's major coverage provisions.

The Affordable Care Act's design dealt a pretty big problem to the territories. It required insurers there to comply with the law's major market reforms — guaranteed coverage, mandated benefits, limits on profits, etc. — without requiring residents to get coverage or providing subsidies to help them afford coverage. The territories — Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands — have been warning for years that would destroy their insurance markets. The individual mandate and the subsidies are the major ways the ACA tries to bring healthy people into the individual insurance market to balance out sick patients who can no longer be denied coverage.

That was until Wednesday, when the Obama administration told the territories that the coverage requirements actually don't apply to them. The exemption was posted on a Health and Human Services Web site on Thursday.

It's an apparent reversal from last July, when a HHS official told the territories there was nothing HHS could do to help them out.

"However meritorious your request might be, HHS is not authorized to choose which provisions...might apply to the territories," wrote Gary Cohen last year. He was then the head of the HHS office overseeing the ACA's insurance market reforms and left the department earlier this year.

What sparked the latest change? The definition of "state" in the Public Health Service Act indicates that the ACA market rules don't apply to the territories, HHS wrote. The department said group health plans in the territories must still comply with other requirements in the law, like the ban on lifetime and annual limits, a ban on rescission and a coverage of preventive benefits (which includes contraception coverage).

A spokesman for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which is overseeing ACA implementation, said the agency recognized that the territories’ insurers saw a greater share of sicker patients as a result of the way the law had been implemented there.

“The Department is committed to working with states and the U.S. territories in order to implement the health care law in a way that maximizes coverage options for consumers," the spokesman said. "As such, we are providing additional flexibility to the territories in order to implement the law in a way that recognizes their unique situations.”
That and few other interesting things are in this link that I had queued up:

Intro (summary):

July 17, 2014 was a remarkably active day in an otherwise quiet week for Affordable Care Act implementation. First, the Departments of Labor, Treasury, and Health and Human Services issued their first response to the Supreme Court’s Hobby Lobby decision —a Frequently Asked Question (FAQ) guidance requiring ERISA plans to provide notice to their participants and beneficiaries if they do not intend to cover contraceptives. Second, the Department of Health and Human Services sent letters to the territories (the Virgin Islands, Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and Puerto Rico) informing them that insurers that market individual insurance policies in the territories are no longer required to comply with the ACA’s insurance market reforms.

Third, HHS released an enrollment bulletin at its REGTAP website describing how insurers in the federally facilitated exchange should handle enrollment for 2015 for individuals whose coverage was terminated in 2014 for non-payment. This post describes these issuances, as well as the May Medicaid enrollment report released on July 11, 2014 by HHS.

 
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No one knows how this thing is supposed to work, I guess: Obama unilaterally repeals Obamacare from the US territories

Looking for a place where Obamacare doesn't exist? Try moving to the U.S. Territories, where the Obama administration just provided a pretty big waiver from the law's major coverage provisions.

The Affordable Care Act's design dealt a pretty big problem to the territories. It required insurers there to comply with the law's major market reforms — guaranteed coverage, mandated benefits, limits on profits, etc. — without requiring residents to get coverage or providing subsidies to help them afford coverage. The territories — Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands — have been warning for years that would destroy their insurance markets. The individual mandate and the subsidies are the major ways the ACA tries to bring healthy people into the individual insurance market to balance out sick patients who can no longer be denied coverage.

That was until Wednesday, when the Obama administration told the territories that the coverage requirements actually don't apply to them. The exemption was posted on a Health and Human Services Web site on Thursday.

It's an apparent reversal from last July, when a HHS official told the territories there was nothing HHS could do to help them out.

"However meritorious your request might be, HHS is not authorized to choose which provisions...might apply to the territories," wrote Gary Cohen last year. He was then the head of the HHS office overseeing the ACA's insurance market reforms and left the department earlier this year.

What sparked the latest change? The definition of "state" in the Public Health Service Act indicates that the ACA market rules don't apply to the territories, HHS wrote. The department said group health plans in the territories must still comply with other requirements in the law, like the ban on lifetime and annual limits, a ban on rescission and a coverage of preventive benefits (which includes contraception coverage).

A spokesman for the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which is overseeing ACA implementation, said the agency recognized that the territories’ insurers saw a greater share of sicker patients as a result of the way the law had been implemented there.


“The Department is committed to working with states and the U.S. territories in order to implement the health care law in a way that maximizes coverage options for consumers," the spokesman said. "As such, we are providing additional flexibility to the territories in order to implement the law in a way that recognizes their unique situations.”
OMG - are you :censored: kidding me?

[SIZE=14.5pt]We have been informed by representatives of the territories that this interpretation is undermining the stability of the territories' health insurance markets. [/SIZE]
That's from the HHS.

http://www.cms.gov/CCIIO/Resources/Letters/Downloads/letter-to-Francis.pdf

 
Litigants in the District of Columbia, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Virginia focus on a seven-word phrase in an ACA subsection to argue that premium subsidies are available only “through an Exchange established by the State.” See 26 U.S.C. § 36B(b)(2)(A) (emphasis added). They argue that individuals are not entitled to premium subsidies (and therefore would be unlikely to be able to afford health insurance) if they live in a state where the federal government is operating the Exchange. Thirty-four states have a federally facilitated Exchange, and approximately seventy-five percent of the people nationwide who qualify for premium subsidies live in those thirty-four states. If successful, these claims would essentially gut the ACA.
:shark:
 
Of note, the Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions Committee reported to the full Senate a bill that withheld subsidies from a state’s residents for four years if the state failed to establish an Exchange, and permanently withheld Exchange subsidies if the state failed to implement the bill’s employer mandate. The Finance Committee approved and reported to the full Senate the ACA’s language, which clearly, categorically, and permanently withholds tax credits in states that fail to establish an Exchange.

Before the House approved the ACA, a group of House Democrats actually complained about this feature. They likened the Senate-passed ACA’s Exchange provisions to another program that conditions individual entitlements on state action (SCHIP). They warned that hostile states could block their residents from receiving “any benefit” by refusing to establish an Exchange, just as some states denied their residents the benefits of the just-passed Children’s Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009 by refusing to participate.

To help overcome such resistance, Prof. Jost and 50 other health policy experts wrote a letter to House Democrats. They agreed the ACA was “imperfect,” yet urged the House to pass it anyway. The House, including each member of the group that complained about the conditional nature of the ACA’s Exchange subsidies, then voted to enact the ACA, including that condition.

The Obama Administration Unilaterally Created a New Entitlement

Despite clear statutory language, in 2011 the Obama administration announced it would implement those subsidies and penalties in states that did not establish Exchanges. It cited no legal authority for its decision, which sparked instant and sustained criticism, from both the public and members of Congress. The nonpartisan Congressional Research Service wrote, “A strictly textual analysis of the plain meaning of the provision would likely lead to the conclusion that the IRS’s authority to issue the premium tax credits is limited only to situations in which the taxpayer is enrolled in a state-established Exchange.”

The administration persevered, and is currently spending billions of dollars to subsidize Exchange enrollees in 34 states — two-thirds of the country — with no legal authority. Those subsidies are an important reason why Exchanges have enrolled 8 million Americans, or whatever the real number is.
We emphasize: in nearly three years, the administration has not identified a single statutory provision or piece of legislative history indicating that Congress intended the ACA to authorize tax credits in federal Exchanges. Every statutory provision and piece of legislative history the administration’s cites in its defense is fully compatible with the statutory requirement that tax-credit recipients enroll “through an Exchange established by the State.”
http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2014/05/22/halbig-and-king-a-simple-case-of-irs-overreach/

This is sounding pretty strong.

 
Drip, drip, drip...

All those pesky holes in Obamacare won't stay plugged. Either this monstrosity will collapse in the short term under the weight of its mountain of regulations or in the long term as a result of its financial unsustainability. Pick your poison.

This is exactly what happens when a single political party rams through a massive piece of ill-conceived legislation behind closed doors.

 
I expected this ruling. It's plainly obvious. But nothing will happen until the Supreme Court looks into it.

Really, they should in 2014 before the trigger kicks in in 2015. It'd be a real :tfp: to start the year under one set of rules but have them annulled halfway through.

 
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Good. Let's get rid of this ####### disaster.
Disaster? It's come in under budget, and more people signed up than expected.
It's such a success that the Dems running in 2014 are embracing it and it's a slam dunk the Dems will do great in the upcoming elections.
IS this a quote from the last election cycle? I remember that President Obama was going to be voted out because of Obamacare (aka RomneyCare)? That happened right? Or is this another election to prove that the ACA is a failure?

 
In a 2-1 vote, a panel of judges on the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia rejected the Obama administration's argument that the problem was triggered by imprecise language in the complex law and that Congress had always intended to offer the subsidies nationwide to low- and middle-income people who bought insurance through one of the state or federal health exchanges created under the law.

As written, the law states that subsidies should be paid to those who purchase insurance through an "exchange established by the state."

That would seem to leave out the 36 states in which the exchanges are operated by the federal government.

Lawyers and congressional staffers who worked on the 2010 law have described the problem as a classic wording glitch in a long and complicated piece of legislation.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-court-obamacare-subsidies-20140711-story.html

Seems as though Obamacare subsidies are squarely in the hands of the SC. They upheld the law (overall) in the first place, so it will be interesting to see how they rule here. I'd suspect they overturn the wording glitch, but we'll have to see.

 
Drip, drip, drip...

All those pesky holes in Obamacare won't stay plugged. Either this monstrosity will collapse in the short term under the weight of its mountain of regulations or in the long term as a result of its financial unsustainability. Pick your poison.

This is exactly what happens when a single political party rams through a massive piece of ill-conceived legislation behind closed doors.
I agree & if you don't remember, it was passed on promises that turned out to be huge lies.

 

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