Offical Korean War Thread (1 Viewer)

[cstu]

Why aren't we talking about bombing them? Much more of a threat than Iran...nevermind, because Israel.

 

[cstu]

Indeed, it doesn't seem like North Korea fits anywhere on the standard left-right political spectrum that, say, someone in the U.S. would think about. Is that the case?

If we have to posit it anywhere on the ideological spectrum, we have to say that it's more of a far-right country. This is a country with a race-based way of looking at the world. It does have a command economy, but the far-right national defense states of the 1930s and 1940s, namely imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, also had a command economy. It was perhaps not quite as extreme as the one you see in North Korea, but a command economy is by no means incompatible with a far-right state.

But we have to keep in mind that this left-right scale should really be envisioned more as a kind of circle. In other words, the further you get to the extreme left, the closer you get to the extreme right. I would see North Korea as being right there where the extreme right and the extreme left meet.

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2010/04/immersion-in-propaganda-racebased-nationalism-and-the-unfigureoutable-vortex-of-juche-thought-colin-.html- Good piece.

This is truly frightening:

Even the North Koreans who escape from the country — and they are very small in number, those who choose to stay outside North Korea — still subscribe broadly to this racially-based way of looking at the world.

They are still fans of Kim Il Sung, even if they think that Kim Jong Il is a bad man.

It's extraordinary, really, that you don't have intellectual opposition to the regime in North Korea. We have very few refugees from North Korea who can be described as being political dissidents.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yes pretty much a totally hopeless existence.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Some folks like Fox saying it didn't happen. This has gone on long enough. UN and the World needs to pur pressure on North Korea and topple them by whatever means necessary. I usually am not sympathetic towards people who allow themselves to be controlled by their gov't like in the ME.

With North Korea we have seen inside what it is like there with shows like Vice and it's pretty GD scary the way the people are treated and controlled.

It angers me but at the same time there isn't much any of us can do about it.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The outrageous thing is we have had like what two different deals with these fascists and they just crap on it, and we do very little. This is like the Iran situation in that this now drives Japan and maybe others to develop their own nuke weapon program. Our inability to take care of this situation causes multiple ripples of problems.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Indeed, it doesn't seem like North Korea fits anywhere on the standard left-right political spectrum that, say, someone in the U.S. would think about. Is that the case?If we have to posit it anywhere on the ideological spectrum, we have to say that it's more of a far-right country. This is a country with a race-based way of looking at the world. It does have a command economy, but the far-right national defense states of the 1930s and 1940s, namely imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, also had a command economy. It was perhaps not quite as extreme as the one you see in North Korea, but a command economy is by no means incompatible with a far-right state.

But we have to keep in mind that this left-right scale should really be envisioned more as a kind of circle. In other words, the further you get to the extreme left, the closer you get to the extreme right. I would see North Korea as being right there where the extreme right and the extreme left meet.

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2010/04/immersion-in-propaganda-racebased-nationalism-and-the-unfigureoutable-vortex-of-juche-thought-colin-.html

- Good piece.

They have brainwashed generations of people. I feel terrible people would have to live like that in an area where most countries are civil. I don't think of the Far East like I do the Middle East. China is somewhat bad but they are pretty civil with folks.

We can't live in a World where a little crybaby dictator who kills his own family members for S&G is allowed to do this.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The most amazingly stupid thing of all is we invaded Iraq which didn't have a nuke program but we left Iran and NK alone. The whole Iraq War has been a disaster coming and going but for crying out loud if you're going to do it, do it.

 

[Sinn Fein]

When they discover oil, or a trove of rare-earth resources in North Korea, we will care. Until then, meh.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

When they discover oil, or a trove of rare-earth resources in North Korea, we will care. Until then, meh.

Is there a point where this lunatic with access to the codes would shake you? Or do you just assume he has the same thirst to live life as you?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's all on China, they won't do anything about it. It's like their stupid, criminal, drug abusing, spoiled little brother. No matter how much trouble or damage or harm he causes they won't hear of turning him in to the cops.

McArthur and Truman should have handled these turds properly back in the day and not crossed the Yalu, we wouldn't be dealing with this today.

 

[Sinn Fein]

When they discover oil, or a trove of rare-earth resources in North Korea, we will care. Until then, meh.

Is there a point where this lunatic with access to the codes would shake you? Or do you just assume he has the same thirst to live life as you?

Does not scare me one bit. Can't imagine that he wants to give up what he has. He has to rattle a few sabers now and again to make sure the world is paying attention - but otherwise, really nothing to gain by attacking South Korea or Japan.

Iran is a different story - aside from the oil (well not really). They want to exert more power in the region, and control more resources. There are currently a lot of resources to fight over - which is one reason the region is so unstable.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

True, NK is a half-peninsula prison with 20 million inmates. It makes nothing, trades with no one, cannibalizes it's own resources.

 

[Thunderlips]

It's all on China, they won't do anything about it. It's like their stupid, criminal, drug abusing, spoiled little brother. No matter how much trouble or damage or harm he causes they won't hear of turning him in to the cops.

McArthur and Truman should have handled these turds properly back in the day and not crossed the Yalu, we wouldn't be dealing with this today.

Truman was too much of a ##### wimp to let McCarthur go in there and blow out those commie bastards though....

 

[timschochet]

It's all on China, they won't do anything about it. It's like their stupid, criminal, drug abusing, spoiled little brother. No matter how much trouble or damage or harm he causes they won't hear of turning him in to the cops.

McArthur and Truman should have handled these turds properly back in the day and not crossed the Yalu, we wouldn't be dealing with this today.

Truman was too much of a ##### wimp to let McCarthur go in there and blow out those commie bastards though....

Stop with that nonsense. Truman fired MacArthur because MacArthur's "solution" was to nuke Peking. There was no way to defeat North Korea then. There is no way to defeat them now. China is their protector. Nothing has changed.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Tim that's total bs on the 2nd part, the US had NK defeated. Had them whipped. Mac violated orders and Truman didn't take steps to rein him in beforehand.

 

[Ursa M]

It's all on China, they won't do anything about it. It's like their stupid, criminal, drug abusing, spoiled little brother. No matter how much trouble or damage or harm he causes they won't hear of turning him in to the cops.

McArthur and Truman should have handled these turds properly back in the day and not crossed the Yalu, we wouldn't be dealing with this today.

Truman was too much of a ##### wimp to let McCarthur go in there and blow out those commie bastards though....

Stop with that nonsense. Truman fired MacArthur because MacArthur's "solution" was to nuke Peking.There was no way to defeat North Korea then. There is no way to defeat them now. China is their protector. Nothing has changed.

Actually, China likes having them around because they are a pain in the USA ###.

 

[timschochet]

Tim that's total bs on the 2nd part, the US had NK defeated. Had them whipped. Mac violated orders and Truman didn't take steps to rein him in beforehand.

What do you mean whipped? Without crossing the Yalu they never would have been whipped. It' would be like attacking America from west to east and driving your troops all the way to the Misssissippi and then stopping. There was no way to win that war. All we could do was push North Korea back to their own side.

 

[freakinback]

When they discover oil, or a trove of rare-earth resources in North Korea, we will care. Until then, meh.

Wow, so 2003! Thanks for contributing.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

From the reddit thread, there is essentially zero difference between the test today vs the one in 2013.

There is almost no chance this was a true multi-stage H-bomb. The seismic activity is virtually identical to their 2013 test. The yield will likely be similar. (Keep in mind, the magnitude of the 2013 seismic event was corrected from 4.9 to 5.1, making this test roughly the same yield as then.) Just look at this comparison of the seismic waves:http://i.imgur.com/n6Ee4M8.jpg

The seismic records are far too similar for this to be a substantially different device than the 2013 test. Look at this comparison of all four North Korean tests (black - 2006; blue - 2009; yellow - 2013; red - 2016):

http://i.imgur.com/7W8vK6m.jpg

 

[Sinn Fein]

When they discover oil, or a trove of rare-earth resources in North Korea, we will care. Until then, meh.

Wow, so 2003! Thanks for contributing.

Ok Einstein - what is your immediate concern over North Korea?

Do you think they are ready to launch a nuclear missile at South Korea or Japan? Or anyone else?

Do you think China lets Jong Un stay in power if led a massive attack against anyone in the region?

What is the end game today that is any different than 2003? The reality is North Korea is contained in a relatively safe box - we can't go in and simply depose Jong Un for a multitude of reasons - most of which I assume you are aware.

 

[timschochet]

When they discover oil, or a trove of rare-earth resources in North Korea, we will care. Until then, meh.

Wow, so 2003! Thanks for contributing.

Ok Einstein - what is your immediate concern over North Korea?Do you think they are ready to launch a nuclear missile at South Korea or Japan? Or anyone else?

Do you think China lets Jong Un stay in power if led a massive attack against anyone in the region?

What is the end game today that is any different than 2003? The reality is North Korea is contained in a relatively safe box - we can't go in and simply depose Jong Un for a multitude of reasons - most of which I assume you are aware.

For once I fully agree with Sinn Fein. Excellent analysis.

 

[Thunderlips]

It's all on China, they won't do anything about it. It's like their stupid, criminal, drug abusing, spoiled little brother. No matter how much trouble or damage or harm he causes they won't hear of turning him in to the cops.

McArthur and Truman should have handled these turds properly back in the day and not crossed the Yalu, we wouldn't be dealing with this today.

Truman was too much of a ##### wimp to let McCarthur go in there and blow out those commie bastards though....

Stop with that nonsense. Truman fired MacArthur because MacArthur's "solution" was to nuke Peking.There was no way to defeat North Korea then. There is no way to defeat them now. China is their protector. Nothing has changed.

Nope...Should have crossed the 38th parallel, pushed those rice eaters back to the Great Wall of China.....took THAT apart brick by brick and then nuked them back to the ####### Stone Age forever. But if you're so smart, Mr Helper....tell me why we didn't do it?...WHY DIDN'T WE DO IT? WHY!?????

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It's all on China, they won't do anything about it. It's like their stupid, criminal, drug abusing, spoiled little brother. No matter how much trouble or damage or harm he causes they won't hear of turning him in to the cops.

McArthur and Truman should have handled these turds properly back in the day and not crossed the Yalu, we wouldn't be dealing with this today.

Truman was too much of a ##### wimp to let McCarthur go in there and blow out those commie bastards though....

Stop with that nonsense. Truman fired MacArthur because MacArthur's "solution" was to nuke Peking.There was no way to defeat North Korea then. There is no way to defeat them now. China is their protector. Nothing has changed.

Nope...Should have crossed the 38th parallel, pushed those rice eaters back to the Great Wall of China.....took THAT apart brick by brick and then nuked them back to the ####### Stone Age forever. But if you're so smart, Mr Helper....tell me why we didn't do it?...WHY DIDN'T WE DO IT? WHY!?????

US could have done one or the other, the course we did take was the absolute worst, that's for sure.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

From the reddit thread, there is essentially zero difference between the test today vs the one in 2013.

There is almost no chance this was a true multi-stage H-bomb. The seismic activity is virtually identical to their 2013 test. The yield will likely be similar. (Keep in mind, the magnitude of the 2013 seismic event was corrected from 4.9 to 5.1, making this test roughly the same yield as then.) Just look at this comparison of the seismic waves:http://i.imgur.com/n6Ee4M8.jpg

The seismic records are far too similar for this to be a substantially different device than the 2013 test. Look at this comparison of all four North Korean tests (black - 2006; blue - 2009; yellow - 2013; red - 2016):

http://i.imgur.com/7W8vK6m.jpg

There's a lot of speculation about this. NK did explode a nuke though, it's not the seismic number or yield but the nature of the waves that are the telling part. No one knows about that except the highest intelligence levels in SK & the US likely. However if I'm not mistaken only the NK and its wacko news service has announced the hydrogen bomb aspect, we should wait for some confirmation from some reliable source.

Now if NK did conduct a nuke test but not a thermonuclear test the question would be then why, why would they want us and others to think it was a thermo nuke, and also why now.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Tim that's total bs on the 2nd part, the US had NK defeated. Had them whipped. Mac violated orders and Truman didn't take steps to rein him in beforehand.

What do you mean whipped? Without crossing the Yalu they never would have been whipped. It' would be like attacking America from west to east and driving your troops all the way to the Misssissippi and then stopping.There was no way to win that war. All we could do was push North Korea back to their own side.

Yes, the US had NK cornered and backed up to the far corner of their own country. The US had won it, it was Mac trying to trigger a larger war, which he got but which the US did not (maybe understandably) follow through on, which landed us where we are today.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

When they discover oil, or a trove of rare-earth resources in North Korea, we will care. Until then, meh.

Wow, so 2003! Thanks for contributing.

Ok Einstein - what is your immediate concern over North Korea?

Do you think they are ready to launch a nuclear missile at South Korea or Japan? Or anyone else?

Do you think China lets Jong Un stay in power if led a massive attack against anyone in the region?

What is the end game today that is any different than 2003? The reality is North Korea is contained in a relatively safe box - we can't go in and simply depose Jong Un for a multitude of reasons - most of which I assume you are aware.

Professor Fein, while this is a good summary and all, you understand folks have emotions. You seem like you manage thru life without giving in to the emotional side of things, wish I could master that.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Tim that's total bs on the 2nd part, the US had NK defeated. Had them whipped. Mac violated orders and Truman didn't take steps to rein him in beforehand.

What do you mean whipped? Without crossing the Yalu they never would have been whipped. It' would be like attacking America from west to east and driving your troops all the way to the Misssissippi and then stopping.There was no way to win that war. All we could do was push North Korea back to their own side.

Yes, the US had NK cornered and backed up to the far corner of their own country. The US had won it, it was Mac trying to trigger a larger war, which he got but which the US did not (maybe understandably) follow through on, which landed us where we are today.

Middle East is stealing all their thunder. You might think with the World occupied by the ME that NoKo would just thank their lucky star flags and not attract attention. If you are running things there the way they are, why would you do something like detonate an H-Bomb...the answer is for whatever reason NoKo wants attention or wants some money and supplies and feels saber rattling is their only way of communication.

I cannot believe in 2016 we are going to continue to allow this to happen. Millions of people are being persecuted, many are in concentration camps/work prisons with sub human conditions we could never even dream of here.

I feel terrible for those folks, and it's one of the few countries where I don't blame the citizens or people for their plight. Maybe I should but after viewing videos put out by Vice and other media folks it is hard to turn a blind eye. The UN condemned everything they did and have done yet no action.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Tim that's total bs on the 2nd part, the US had NK defeated. Had them whipped. Mac violated orders and Truman didn't take steps to rein him in beforehand.

What do you mean whipped? Without crossing the Yalu they never would have been whipped. It' would be like attacking America from west to east and driving your troops all the way to the Misssissippi and then stopping.There was no way to win that war. All we could do was push North Korea back to their own side.

Yes, the US had NK cornered and backed up to the far corner of their own country. The US had won it, it was Mac trying to trigger a larger war, which he got but which the US did not (maybe understandably) follow through on, which landed us where we are today.

Middle East is stealing all their thunder. You might think with the World occupied by the ME that NoKo would just thank their lucky star flags and not attract attention. If you are running things there the way they are, why would you do something like detonate an H-Bomb...the answer is for whatever reason NoKo wants attention or wants some money and supplies and feels saber rattling is their only way of communication.

I cannot believe in 2016 we are going to continue to allow this to happen. Millions of people are being persecuted, many are in concentration camps/work prisons with sub human conditions we could never even dream of here.

I feel terrible for those folks, and it's one of the few countries where I don't blame the citizens or people for their plight. Maybe I should but after viewing videos put out by Vice and other media folks it is hard to turn a blind eye. The UN condemned everything they did and have done yet no action.

It's possible they are doing this because the US is occupied with the mideast, and Russia, and Iran, and refugees in EU and here, and Isis, etc.

They could have exploded a nuke, pretending like it's thermo when it's not, just to stir the ant pile when we least want it. This causes panic in Japan and SK, elsewhere. They could be fishing for their own nuke deal - yet another one, we have already had two with them IIRC.

 

[kentric]

It's all on China, they won't do anything about it. It's like their stupid, criminal, drug abusing, spoiled little brother. No matter how much trouble or damage or harm he causes they won't hear of turning him in to the cops.

McArthur and Truman should have handled these turds properly back in the day and not crossed the Yalu, we wouldn't be dealing with this today.

Truman was too much of a ##### wimp to let McCarthur go in there and blow out those commie bastards though....

Stop with that nonsense. Truman fired MacArthur because MacArthur's "solution" was to nuke Peking.There was no way to defeat North Korea then. There is no way to defeat them now. China is their protector. Nothing has changed.

What are your views of the Germans sneak attack on Pearl Harbor?

 

[timschochet]

Tim that's total bs on the 2nd part, the US had NK defeated. Had them whipped. Mac violated orders and Truman didn't take steps to rein him in beforehand.

What do you mean whipped? Without crossing the Yalu they never would have been whipped. It' would be like attacking America from west to east and driving your troops all the way to the Misssissippi and then stopping.There was no way to win that war. All we could do was push North Korea back to their own side.

Yes, the US had NK cornered and backed up to the far corner of their own country. The US had won it, it was Mac trying to trigger a larger war, which he got but which the US did not (maybe understandably) follow through on, which landed us where we are today.

This is really sad. It's a complete misunderstanding of history to believe that we ever had that war won.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Tim that's total bs on the 2nd part, the US had NK defeated. Had them whipped. Mac violated orders and Truman didn't take steps to rein him in beforehand.

What do you mean whipped? Without crossing the Yalu they never would have been whipped. It' would be like attacking America from west to east and driving your troops all the way to the Misssissippi and then stopping.There was no way to win that war. All we could do was push North Korea back to their own side.

Yes, the US had NK cornered and backed up to the far corner of their own country. The US had won it, it was Mac trying to trigger a larger war, which he got but which the US did not (maybe understandably) follow through on, which landed us where we are today.

This is really sad. It's a complete misunderstanding of history to believe that we ever had that war won.

This shows the furthest advance by the US.

I would say that is a more than substantial, nearly entire conquest of NK.

It was very end of October 1950 that China finally attack the US/UN. China had warned the US this would happen if it kept advancing and Mac convinced Truman they would not attack and Truman did nothing to take the situation in hand. I don't know what portion of the huge losses the US took came after that, but it was likely the far far great majority.

 

[timschochet]

Saints, as the Revolutionary War demonstrated, land doesn't matter if you fail to destroy the other army. The North Koreans ran away from MacArthur, and retreated behind the Yalu. The minute our forces moved back south they would have moved in again. And they were setting up guerillas too. It would have been the Vietnam War all over again. That's why MacArthur crossed the Yalu, in order to finish off the North h Koreans and ensure no stalemate. But the Chinese intervened.

Unwinnable war. No victory possible.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints, as the Revolutionary War demonstrated, land doesn't matter if you fail to destroy the other army. The North Koreans ran away from MacArthur, and retreated behind the Yalu. The minute our forces moved back south they would have moved in again. And they were setting up guerillas too. It would have been the Vietnam War all over again. That's why MacArthur crossed the Yalu, in order to finish off the North h Koreans and ensure no stalemate. But the Chinese intervened.

Unwinnable war. No victory possible.

The NK forces were disintegrated by September-October 1950.

This is Zhou's letter of 9/30/50:

Moreover, time after time, it sent its air force, which is invading Korea, to intrude into the air over the Liaotung Province of China, strafing and bombing, and sent its naval forces which are invading Korea to bombard Chinese merchant shipping on the high seas. The U.S. aggressive forces have invaded China's borders and may at any time expand their aggression. MacArthur, Commander-in-Chief of the American aggression against Taiwan and Korea, long ago disclosed the aggressive design of the U.S. Government, and is continuing to invent new excuses for extending its aggression.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/zhou-enlai/1950/10/x01.htm

- This is not unlike Nixon's secret war. The US had crossed the Yalu and the American people were not told. Truman did not deal with his out of control general.

It is indeed a failure on Truman's part and for all the American soldiers he saved at Hiroshima and Nagasaki he then 5 years later ended costing many tens of thousands their lives. Sad but true.

 

[timschochet]

BTW, Saints, don't know if you're aware of this but in the 1590s, the Japanese, united for the first time in their history under the peasant warlord Hideyoshi, invaded Korea. They easily conquered most of the country but knew they could never win the war without destroying the Korean army. So they chased them north across the Yalu and- guess what? The Chinese counter attacked. The next three years were a bloody stalemate until Shogun Iyeyasu (on whom Toranaga is based) replaced Hideyoshi and wisely removed all forces.

 

[mcintyre1]

Good for them.

I hate to say it, but I'm actually beginning to think that Kim Jong-Un might be able to be a positive influence on his country. Then again, he doesn't have to work too hard to be better than his predecessors.

Whoops...

 

[timschochet]

You're correct about Truman erring in not stopping MacArthur earlier. That would have saved many lives. But it would not have prevented the eventual stalemate.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

BTW, Saints, don't know if you're aware of this but in the 1590s, the Japanese, united for the first time in their history under the peasant warlord Hideyoshi, invaded Korea. They easily conquered most of the country but knew they could never win the war without destroying the Korean army. So they chased them north across the Yalu and- guess what? The Chinese counter attacked. The next three years were a bloody stalemate until Shogun Iyeyasu (on whom Toranaga is based) replaced Hideyoshi and wisely removed all forces.

I did not know that. However the Japanese in the 16th century didn't have aerial recon or any of the tools we had to know where China's army was positioned. - But let's face it, China warned the US diplomatically to stop, even as the US had already pressed right up the Yalu. They told Truman what they would do and they told Truman that we had crossed into their territory and had attacked their ships and bombed their territory. - McArthur convinced Truman that none of this had happened and that he had nothing to worry about. It's all MMQB'ing but basically Truman took Mac's word over what the Chinese, his diplomats and his intelligence services were telling him. It was a brutal miscalculation. The US could have held Pyongyang and created a buffer with China which would have given us a defensive position they could hold. NK would have been squeezed out of existence. There is no indication that China would have invaded if the US had held the line. We had two full months to accomplish this.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

BTW, Saints, don't know if you're aware of this but in the 1590s, the Japanese, united for the first time in their history under the peasant warlord Hideyoshi, invaded Korea. They easily conquered most of the country but knew they could never win the war without destroying the Korean army. So they chased them north across the Yalu and- guess what? The Chinese counter attacked. The next three years were a bloody stalemate until Shogun Iyeyasu (on whom Toranaga is based) replaced Hideyoshi and wisely removed all forces.

Btw Tim that's the second time you made that point about our forces being compelled to chase the NK'eans into China. I get the point, and I guess you're right that Mac felt compelled to do that, but it was still foolish. It was all premised on the idea that China would not invade. Going into China gave them every reason to invade, it ensured that.

 

[Jayrod]

It's all on China, they won't do anything about it. It's like their stupid, criminal, drug abusing, spoiled little brother. No matter how much trouble or damage or harm he causes they won't hear of turning him in to the cops.

McArthur and Truman should have handled these turds properly back in the day and not crossed the Yalu, we wouldn't be dealing with this today.

Truman was too much of a ##### wimp to let McCarthur go in there and blow out those commie bastards though....

Stop with that nonsense. Truman fired MacArthur because MacArthur's "solution" was to nuke Peking.There was no way to defeat North Korea then. There is no way to defeat them now. China is their protector. Nothing has changed.

Nope...Should have crossed the 38th parallel, pushed those rice eaters back to the Great Wall of China.....took THAT apart brick by brick and then nuked them back to the ####### Stone Age forever. But if you're so smart, Mr Helper....tell me why we didn't do it?...WHY DIDN'T WE DO IT? WHY!?????

I'd listen to this guy, he can probably pull off a triple Lindy.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Good for them.

I hate to say it, but I'm actually beginning to think that Kim Jong-Un might be able to be a positive influence on his country. Then again, he doesn't have to work too hard to be better than his predecessors.

Whoops...

Yaknow, a guy like that with that haircut, you'd figure some Swedish fish, a new hoverboard, some Bieber tickets, maybe an intro to Miley, and maybe a cool bomber jacket from Abercrombie would do the trick. Did we try any of that?