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***Official 2017 NCAA Hoops Tourney thread: Congrats UNC, all the refs from NCCG should be banned for life*** (5 Viewers)

TLEF316 said:
saw it in real time. It was obvious even from the wide angle.

But it was basically a makeup call for the incorrectly called deflection on the airball 3.

Congrats to UNC fans. Gonzaga shot themselves in the foot by missing a million bunnies (and coming out of the locker room 3 minutes late to start the 2nd) and the tight whistle put Collins in foul trouble to kill them off.
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I just saw a pic of it. Yeah that was a bad miss by the ref standing on the baseline his whole hand was planted OB.

 
TLEF316 said:
saw it in real time. It was obvious even from the wide angle.

But it was basically a makeup call for the incorrectly called deflection on the airball 3.

Congrats to UNC fans. Gonzaga shot themselves in the foot by missing a million bunnies (and coming out of the locker room 3 minutes late to start the 2nd) and the tight whistle put Collins in foul trouble to kill them off. For UNC to win the game with Jackson playing so terribly is a testament to a solid veteran group.
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Deflection?  You mean the foul?

 
tdoss said:
Deflection?  You mean the foul?
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They didn't call a foul(although maybe they should have) . Shooting fouls are MOSTLY subjective. (I can live with someone missing a shooting foul call unless its blatantly obvious) Who touched the ball last or someone being OOB should be pretty cut and dried.

 
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Well, we had a great run of championship series/games starting with last year's NCAA basketball championship. Hopefully this won't be the start of a year of poorly officiated unwatchable championships.

 
The ball is tippedAnd there you areYou're running for a basketOh ### ####it there's anoooother foul callAnd all the yearsNo one knowsJust how hard you workedBut nooooooow it shows...(in) one shining moment, you're on the free throw lineOne shining moment, both teams are in the bonus, and we're not even under niiiiiiine But life is shortAnd this game is so so so longWith the sound of a whistleAnother big man is gone And when it's doneFoul or airballYou always did your bestCuz inside you knew...(that) one shining moment you're shooting airballs in a domeOne shining moment, your tutor is in bed because she's going to your class tomorrow at home Feel the beat of your heartAbsolutely no wind in your faceIt's no more than a free throw shooting contestThis game is a disgrace ...And when it's doneWin or loseAt least we didn't blow 5 grand to goCuz inside you knew...(that) one shining moment, you reached for the skyOne shining moment, you knewOne shining moment, you were willing to tryOne shining moment.......you were out of bounds while laying on the floor in front of the reeeeeeef

 
PlasmaDogPlasma said:
Do you think bank robbers should be allowed to keep the money?
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Do you think teams who run cover for a homicidal murdering tight end before their coach fakes a heart attack and then goes to Ohio state should keep the titles?

the answer is of course they should. So should unc. But don't be a hypocrite, all schools cheat. 

 
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Capella said:
Do you think teams who run cover for a homicidal murdering tight end before their coach fakes a heart attack and then goes to Ohio state should keep the titles?

the answer is of course they should. So should unc. But don't be a hypocrite, all schools cheat. 
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Penalizing kids that weren't even at a school when a violation occurred, is moronic.  I'm all for vacating wins from the past, but losing scholarships and postseasons bans sucks.  It would be different if it were the same coach and group of players, but it rarely is.  A stiff monetary fine and vacated wins should suffice.

 
I wanted Gonzaga, but somehow managed to win the work point spread bracket pool for the second time in four years (started with Rhode Island ... I swept through with UConn three years ago).

But mostly I wanted a great game. Close finish, but too much like UConn-Butler for my liking.

 
Yeah all schools cheat.  Like the NCAA taking away USC's 2004 title in football for the Reggie Bush stuff is just stupid.  I still can't bel;ieve Bush gave his Heisman back, if you are a millionaire that's a good chance to hire a bunch of lawyers to tell the NCAA to go piss up a tree. 

I won't go as far as others in saying the NCAA is a slave plantation, but it certainly is organized crime.  But we all buy into it, so I guess we are as much to blame as anyone. 

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Yeah all schools cheat.  Like the NCAA taking away USC's 2004 title in football for the Reggie Bush stuff is just stupid.  I still can't bel;ieve Bush gave his Heisman back, if you are a millionaire that's a good chance to hire a bunch of lawyers to tell the NCAA to go piss up a tree. 

I won't go as far as others in saying the NCAA is a slave plantation, but it certainly is organized crime.  But we all buy into it, so I guess we are as much to blame as anyone. 
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I couldn't believe he did that either. Come take it out of my house, nerds. 

 
Capella said:
Doctor Detroit said:
Yeah all schools cheat.  Like the NCAA taking away USC's 2004 title in football for the Reggie Bush stuff is just stupid.  I still can't bel;ieve Bush gave his Heisman back, if you are a millionaire that's a good chance to hire a bunch of lawyers to tell the NCAA to go piss up a tree. 

I won't go as far as others in saying the NCAA is a slave plantation, but it certainly is organized crime.  But we all buy into it, so I guess we are as much to blame as anyone. 
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I couldn't believe he did that either. Come take it out of my house, nerds. 
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Better get a court order mother####ers!

I understand that was politics for Reggie but he's gonna regret that forever.  That's a time you stand your ground and say #### it, it's not like USC was gonna be mad at him. 

 
Dickie Dunn said:
I wanted Gonzaga, but somehow managed to win the work point spread bracket pool for the second time in four years (started with Rhode Island ... I swept through with UConn three years ago).

But mostly I wanted a great game. Close finish, but too much like UConn-Butler for my liking.
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Butler shot eighteen percent from the floor in that one. Far fewer fouls, but that game was played a lot slower. 58 possessions in that one, as opposed to 74 tonight. But neither game was exactly easy on the eyes.

Interestingly, every UNC game in the tourney was betw. 73 and 76 possessions.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
Yeah all schools cheat.  Like the NCAA taking away USC's 2004 title in football for the Reggie Bush stuff is just stupid.  I still can't bel;ieve Bush gave his Heisman back, if you are a millionaire that's a good chance to hire a bunch of lawyers to tell the NCAA to go piss up a tree. 

I won't go as far as others in saying the NCAA is a slave plantation, but it certainly is organized crime.  But we all buy into it, so I guess we are as much to blame as anyone. 
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Oh yeah, it's an absurd cabal. But FIFA and the NFL are pretty loathsome too.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've gotta go catch up on some boxing.

 
Tar Heels$! 

Officisting was a scratch, both teams got ####ed - that Berry fouls on a ogre? The 3 pointer that wasn't touched and should've been UNC ball befor the 3? Meeks 4th?Im sure Zags fan can make the same observations from their endS

Thqt was by far the worst game UNac played all tourney, but a title is a tile!!  

Jusutn kllkvv - #### I can't type, prob puking too, but #### it go Heels !

 
Dickie Dunn said:
But mostly I wanted a great game. Close finish, but too much like UConn-Butler for my liking.
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Exactly how I feel. This Gonzaga team tonight was that 2nd year Butler team. Neither of those teams could make shots close to the rim during the championship game.

 
dickey moe said:
Exactly how I feel. This Gonzaga team tonight was that 2nd year Butler team. Neither of those teams could make shots close to the rim during the championship game.
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During the 2nd half of that game, Butler had a 13 minute stretch during which they scored three points.

Depends on what you like, or don't like, I guess. UConn won ugly, but there wasn't a whole lot of drama, that stretch that Butler had just killed the game off. The level of play was a lot higher tonight, but the refs wrecked the game in the 2H and might have swung the outcome.

 
Short Corner said:
Ummm, yeah
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I expect you to reflexively reject the idea.  So let me offer you this...  next time, you're on a basketball court, pull down a rebound at the block, pivot to look upcourt, spot your target, and hit them with a pass near midcourt.  And have sometime with a stopwatch timing you from when you first touch the ball until the receiver catches your pass.  

If the time elapsed for rebound, pass, and reception is less than 0.0 seconds, I will freely concede my idea is without merit and will never bring it up again.  But if it takes more than 0.0 seconds, there has to be a time window where the deliberate FT miss when up by one point benefits the shooting team.  

(Note also the opponent needs to be out of timeouts to deploy the strategy, as a timeout reintroduces the benefit of throwing a pass upcourt without the clock running.  Don't think I explicitly mentioned that earlier.  In the context of the play we were talking about, Oregon was out of timeouts.)  

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
I expect you to reflexively reject the idea.  So let me offer you this...  next time, you're on a basketball court, pull down a rebound at the block, pivot to look upcourt, spot your target, and hit them with a pass near midcourt.  And have sometime with a stopwatch timing you from when you first touch the ball until the receiver catches your pass.  

If the time elapsed for rebound, pass, and reception is less than 0.0 seconds, I will freely concede my idea is without merit and will never bring it up again.  But if it takes more than 0.0 seconds, there has to be a time window where the deliberate FT miss when up by one point benefits the shooting team.  

(Note also the opponent needs to be out of timeouts to deploy the strategy, as a timeout reintroduces the benefit of throwing a pass upcourt without the clock running.  Don't think I explicitly mentioned that earlier.  In the context of the play we were talking about, Oregon was out of timeouts.)  
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Up 1, opponent has no TOs, I think this is the exact right play. With four seconds left it doesn't really matter if you're winning by 1 or 2, and you're right the time to gather and outlet is going to kill a lot of the clock by the time the receiver gets the pass. You might have a shot if your rebounder is an excellent outlet passer, but still drawing pretty thin unless you have Kevin Love throwing an outlet to Steph Curry, to shoot an off-balance 35 footer. Even then it's still pretty thin. 

Up 2, at that point I think I try and make it. If it does go in, and I'm up 3, then I foul the opponent intentionally and make them shoot FT's. As hard as it is for a team to rebound, outlet, shoot in four seconds, if you're up 2 they're doing it for the win. If you're up 3, you foul, and then they have to make a FT, brick the second one on purpose, o-reb and score in a very limited amount of time for the tie.

It's a really narrow set of circumstances where you'd intentionally miss a FT with the lead and have it make sense. Don't think I've ever seen it before, although I have seen situations where I've realized that a team up 3 shooting its last FT with ~5 seconds left had the win/win situation of either salting the game away by going up 4, or by missing and, again, not leaving the opposing team time enough to get a shot off.

 
Speaking on the last seconds of a game, why don't more coaches have players throw the ball up sky high, and downcourt if possible?  Rick Barry style.  What are the "metrics" on that jump ball getting converted in say, 5 seconds or less?  Is this against your rules??

 
Rodrigo Duterte said:
Speaking on the last seconds of a game, why don't more coaches have players throw the ball up sky high, and downcourt if possible?  Rick Barry style.  What are the "metrics" on that jump ball getting converted in say, 5 seconds or less?  Is this against your rules??
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I think if you're down to 4-5 seconds, have the lead and the ball, it's almost always better to get fouled and take some free throws. I don't have any numbers to back this up. 

 
Good Posting Judge said:
I think if you're down to 4-5 seconds, have the lead and the ball, it's almost always better to get fouled and take some free throws. I don't have any numbers to back this up. 
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Of course there are no numbers to back it up, no coach would dare to do it, it's too unconventional.  

Look, you can do the numbers on this one in your head.  That ball is not coming down with enough time to realistically score.  The same cannot be said with your 63% foul shooter who has no problem missing two, under the circumstances.....  Meanwhile, the opposing team has a timeout (which they could not have called with the ball in the air).

 
Rodrigo Duterte said:
Speaking on the last seconds of a game, why don't more coaches have players throw the ball up sky high, and downcourt if possible?  Rick Barry style.  What are the "metrics" on that jump ball getting converted in say, 5 seconds or less?  Is this against your rules??
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I think a few years ago a player did that, and the ball hit the center-court scoreboard with a couple seconds left. OB to the other team, who scored to win.

 
Rodrigo Duterte said:
Speaking on the last seconds of a game, why don't more coaches have players throw the ball up sky high, and downcourt if possible?  Rick Barry style.  What are the "metrics" on that jump ball getting converted in say, 5 seconds or less?  Is this against your rules??
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Y there's a video from last season of a kid doing this, misjudged the time and lost on a deportation heave.  -EV compared to taking the foul IMO.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Butler shot eighteen percent from the floor in that one. Far fewer fouls, but that game was played a lot slower. 58 possessions in that one, as opposed to 74 tonight. But neither game was exactly easy on the eyes.

Interestingly, every UNC game in the tourney was betw. 73 and 76 possessions.
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I thought Gonzaga ran great offense, just couldn't finish.  Best player on the floor tonight was Collins IMO and the refs limited him when UNC couldn't.

 
When you compare last night's game to last year's championship game it was like watching 2 different sports.  Thanks refs

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Up 1, opponent has no TOs, I think this is the exact right play. With four seconds left it doesn't really matter if you're winning by 1 or 2, and you're right the time to gather and outlet is going to kill a lot of the clock by the time the receiver gets the pass. You might have a shot if your rebounder is an excellent outlet passer, but still drawing pretty thin unless you have Kevin Love throwing an outlet to Steph Curry, to shoot an off-balance 35 footer. Even then it's still pretty thin. 

Up 2, at that point I think I try and make it. If it does go in, and I'm up 3, then I foul the opponent intentionally and make them shoot FT's. As hard as it is for a team to rebound, outlet, shoot in four seconds, if you're up 2 they're doing it for the win. If you're up 3, you foul, and then they have to make a FT, brick the second one on purpose, o-reb and score in a very limited amount of time for the tie.

It's a really narrow set of circumstances where you'd intentionally miss a FT with the lead and have it make sense. Don't think I've ever seen it before, although I have seen situations where I've realized that a team up 3 shooting its last FT with ~5 seconds left had the win/win situation of either salting the game away by going up 4, or by missing and, again, not leaving the opposing team time enough to get a shot off.
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This is not correct. Look at Oregon/UNC game. UNC got the rebound on the missed free throw, threw it out to Berry and then Oregon recovered and fouled Berry and a whopping 1.5 seconds expired. 

I never understand why teams clear out on these plays. Purdue against Iowa St and UNC against Oregon are exactly why you shouldnt.  

 
Glad the Heels were able to overcome the pain of last season and get a one. Very sloppy game overall though. Maybe this is why they shouldn't play basketball in football stadiums? Both teams shot the ball poorly, even free throws weren't going in. And then refs, wow the refs were awful. The 2nd half was terrible.

 
The refs had quick whistles in that one, but both teams played overly aggressive and went in to the post a ton. They deserve some of the "blame," if you want to call it that, for the game being what it was.

Not that I mind, of course.

Helluva Gonzaga team this year, didn't watch much during the year but they impressed me in the postseason. Both teams lost their shooting touch, I assume because of the stakes and the physicality and maybe even the stadium, but the Zags were missing on better looks than the Heels IMO. Heels just made the plays down the stretch, plus I think Karnowski just isn't used to playing teams with the interior size to stop him and it threw him. Collins handled it much better but he couldn't stop fouling.  I'm sure its not much consolation this AM but it's pretty great that they get a banner out of this season and will go down as the first Final Four Zag team, they deserve to be remembered.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Up 1, opponent has no TOs, I think this is the exact right play. With four seconds left it doesn't really matter if you're winning by 1 or 2, and you're right the time to gather and outlet is going to kill a lot of the clock by the time the receiver gets the pass. You might have a shot if your rebounder is an excellent outlet passer, but still drawing pretty thin unless you have Kevin Love throwing an outlet to Steph Curry, to shoot an off-balance 35 footer. Even then it's still pretty thin. 

Up 2, at that point I think I try and make it. If it does go in, and I'm up 3, then I foul the opponent intentionally and make them shoot FT's. As hard as it is for a team to rebound, outlet, shoot in four seconds, if you're up 2 they're doing it for the win. If you're up 3, you foul, and then they have to make a FT, brick the second one on purpose, o-reb and score in a very limited amount of time for the tie.

It's a really narrow set of circumstances where you'd intentionally miss a FT with the lead and have it make sense. Don't think I've ever seen it before, although I have seen situations where I've realized that a team up 3 shooting its last FT with ~5 seconds left had the win/win situation of either salting the game away by going up 4, or by missing and, again, not leaving the opposing team time enough to get a shot off.
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It is very narrow, IMO similar to when a team would rather take a safety than try to punt out of their own end zone.  

Like you mentioned, up 2 or 3, the value of making the FT helps so much against the opponent making a three-pointer, go ahead and try to make it.  Up more than 3, so little time on the clock it's not going to matter.  But up 1, making a FT doesn't change what happens if the opponent makes a three-pointer, so there's a narrow time window where draining a little clock to take a 2-pointer out of play (and taking an additional pass away to narrow the range of possible three-pointers) is worth the trouble of a deliberate miss.  Even if it's a measly 1.5 seconds, that's one fewer pass a team can make before having to put the ball up.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
It is very narrow, IMO similar to when a team would rather take a safety than try to punt out of their own end zone.  

Like you mentioned, up 2 or 3, the value of making the FT helps so much against the opponent making a three-pointer, go ahead and try to make it.  Up more than 3, so little time on the clock it's not going to matter.  But up 1, making a FT doesn't change what happens if the opponent makes a three-pointer, so there's a narrow time window where draining a little clock to take a 2-pointer out of play (and taking an additional pass away to narrow the range of possible three-pointers) is worth the trouble of a deliberate miss.  Even if it's a measly 1.5 seconds, that's one fewer pass a team can make before having to put the ball up.
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While I agree with this generally, there is the chance the shooting team commits a foul during the rebound of the intentionally-missed FT possibly giving the other team 2 FTs 

 
TobiasFunke said:
The refs had quick whistles in that one, but both teams played overly aggressive and went in to the post a ton. They deserve some of the "blame," if you want to call it that, for the game being what it was.

Not that I mind, of course.

Helluva Gonzaga team this year, didn't watch much during the year but they impressed me in the postseason. Both teams lost their shooting touch, I assume because of the stakes and the physicality and maybe even the stadium, but the Zags were missing on better looks than the Heels IMO. Heels just made the plays down the stretch, plus I think Karnowski just isn't used to playing teams with the interior size to stop him and it threw him. Collins handled it much better but he couldn't stop fouling.  I'm sure its not much consolation this AM but it's pretty great that they get a banner out of this season and will go down as the first Final Four Zag team, they deserve to be remembered.
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The refs may have had quick whistles, but a majority of the calls were away from the ball.  This has nothing to do with style of plays, it has 100% to do with inept officiating.  These guys were absolutely atrocious, and it effected the outcome of the game.  Collins is an absolute stud, and 4 of his fouls were complete BS, FOUR!  Hell, 3 of his fouls were bad calls away from the ball, that cannot happen. 

Karnowski was terrible inside, but he's got Meeks just laying on him all game, which is why he was short.  With as many fouls as they did call, these have to be called.  You can go straight up, but you can't lean in on someone with your arms in the air, it's a foul. 

 
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