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***Official 2017 NCAA Hoops Tourney thread: Congrats UNC, all the refs from NCCG should be banned for life*** (3 Viewers)

I thought about this game a ton this morning.  I really think that we need to go back to officiating these games like it was 30 years ago.  If you touch someone at all, it's a foul.  If your hand is on the side of the ball at all, it's a carry.  It's not necessarily a style of basketball I would enjoy watching, but they've got to take the guess work out of the game by officials.  It may take a year or two for the athletes to get used to, but it would be a better result when kids learn to actually slide their feet and play defense.  Officiating has gotten progressively worse in the last 4-5 years, I can't imagine what it's going to be like in another 5 years.

 
bleachercreacher said:
The refs may have had quick whistles, but a majority of the calls were away from the ball.  This has nothing to do with style of plays, it has 100% to do with inept officiating.  These guys were absolutely atrocious, and it effected the outcome of the game.  Collins is an absolute stud, and 4 of his fouls were complete BS, FOUR!  Hell, 3 of his fouls were bad calls away from the ball, that cannot happen. 

Karnowski was terrible inside, but he's got Meeks just laying on him all game, which is why he was short.  With as many fouls as they did call, these have to be called.  You can go straight up, but you can't lean in on someone with your arms in the air, it's a foul. 
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Yes, they called off-ball fouls on Collins. And Collins also got away with a hard shooting foul on Meeks in the second half- can't remember exactly when it was but Meeks had a clear lane to the bucket to a slam after a great interior pass and Collins came late from his side and got all body. The ball ended up rolling in after the contact knocked it free which is probably why they didn't call it, but it should have been an and-one and Collins could have been sidelined even earlier.

The calls on Meeks and Karnowski were about even. They played similar games with similar styles and got similar up and down treatment from the refs. Both got away with some aggressive play but also got dinged on some cheapies. Meeks' fourth, on a "hip check" on a loose ball halfway through the second half, was iffy at best.  And Karnowski got away with multiple walks as well, including this hilarious seven-step shuffle early in the second half, while of course Meeks was probably out of bounds on that loose ball scramble in the final minutes.

Bottom line it probably evens out in the end. In fact the teams got called for the same number of fouls and shot the same number of FTs, with one of the Zag fouls and two of the UNC FTs being intentional at the end of the game. It wasn't pretty, but nobody was shafted.

Also I'm not sure I understand your argument that off-ball foul calls are by definition bad or wrong.  Do you think teams should be able to hold off-ball offensive players and set moving screens all game, secure in the knowledge that refs won't call too many of those no matter how many are committed?

 
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Capella said:
NBA in the 90s, except for Jordan, was dog####. Come on man. Those games were all 82-77. The Knicks were just beating people up. 
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How can anyone not long for the era of two guys playing 1-on-1 while eight guys spaced the floor and watched?  I mean it was so bad they had to shorten the three point line for two years.

 
Worst game UNC played all tourney, shocked they won. Justin Jackson continued with the terrible shot selection, Meeks didn't do anything that special on offense and was on the bench for a lot of the game, Berry shot 38% from the field, Pinson's only attribute is passing, Maye was a non-factor - Hicks slightly above average play was the difference for UNC IMO. 

I just took a look at the stats, 4/27 from 3, 57% from the FT line, & out-rebounded... How they won this game is beyond me.

The officiating was awful, just absolutely terrible, all-around. 

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Worst game UNC played all tourney, shocked they won. Justin Jackson continued with the terrible shot selection, Meeks didn't do anything that special on offense and was on the bench for a lot of the game, Berry shot 38% from the field, Pinson's only attribute is passing, Maye was a non-factor - Hicks slightly above average play was the difference for UNC IMO. 

I just took a look at the stats, 4/27 from 3, 57% from the FT line, & out-rebounded... How they won this game is beyond me.

The officiating was awful, just absolutely terrible, all-around. 
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So you didn't watch?

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Worst game UNC played all tourney, shocked they won. Justin Jackson continued with the terrible shot selection, Meeks didn't do anything that special on offense and was on the bench for a lot of the game, Berry shot 38% from the field, Pinson's only attribute is passing, Maye was a non-factor - Hicks slightly above average play was the difference for UNC IMO. 

I just took a look at the stats, 4/27 from 3, 57% from the FT line, & out-rebounded... How they won this game is beyond me.

The officiating was awful, just absolutely terrible, all-around. 
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I really think the football stadium affected the shooting.  Oregon could not hit wide open 3's they have making all year in the second half on Saturday.  I saw the same thing last night.  Jackson got hot in the second half Saturday and hit 3 3's in a row which proved to be the difference. 

Overall some poor basketball games this weekend IMO.  Only Gonzaga against South Carolina played well.  

 
Don't Noonan said:
I really think the football stadium affected the shooting.  Oregon could not hit wide open 3's they have making all year in the second half on Saturday.  I saw the same thing last night.  Jackson got hot in the second half Saturday and hit 3 3's in a row which proved to be the difference. 

Overall some poor basketball games this weekend IMO.  Only Gonzaga against South Carolina played well.  
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I'm on board with the stadium being the reason for the poor shooting. The vantage points have to be off in playing in such a big stadium compared to a basketball arena. But, it isn't going to change since the NCAA makes too much money to move it to a smaller venue.

 
Rodrigo Duterte said:
Nice work!  

But that is nowhere near how it should be done.  And even in that instance, what are the odds of it happening again?

Regardless, I do love that you found that.
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Yeah, I agree.  Should be a more prominent strategy, it's fairly easy to execute. But I'm a Wiz fan so I immediately thought of that when I saw the question.  It's hilarious.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Yes, they called off-ball fouls on Collins. And Collins also got away with a hard shooting foul on Meeks in the second half- can't remember exactly when it was but Meeks had a clear lane to the bucket to a slam after a great interior pass and Collins came late from his side and got all body. The ball ended up rolling in after the contact knocked it free which is probably why they didn't call it, but it should have been an and-one and Collins could have been sidelined even earlier.

The calls on Meeks and Karnowski were about even. They played similar games with similar styles and got similar up and down treatment from the refs. Both got away with some aggressive play but also got dinged on some cheapies. Meeks' fourth, on a "hip check" on a loose ball halfway through the second half, was iffy at best.  And Karnowski got away with multiple walks as well, including this hilarious seven-step shuffle early in the second half, while of course Meeks was probably out of bounds on that loose ball scramble in the final minutes.

Bottom line it probably evens out in the end. In fact the teams got called for the same number of fouls and shot the same number of FTs, with one of the Zag fouls and two of the UNC FTs being intentional at the end of the game. It wasn't pretty, but nobody was shafted.

Also I'm not sure I understand your argument that off-ball foul calls are by definition bad or wrong.  Do you think teams should be able to hold off-ball offensive players and set moving screens all game, secure in the knowledge that refs won't call too many of those no matter how many are committed?
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I think off the ball fouls should be called, I just think that a majority of the off the ball fouls they called last night were absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary.  I believe Collins got called for 2 moving screens, and 1 was legitimate.  The call on Collins in the lane when he was posting up as the was awful too.  I know there were many more, but these are the two that stick out in my mind.  If the foul is committed, it should be called, but they weren't being committed anywhere near the rate that they were calling. 

I'm not saying that the game was officiated unevenly, it was equally atrocious.  What I'm saying is that the result of the fouls that were called effected Gonzaga significantly more than it did UNC, and it probably cost Gonzaga a NCAA title.  When the game had flow, for a little bit in the first half, UNC couldn't keep up with Gonzaga.  If you just add Collins to Gonzaga's team when he had to sit, Gonzaga wins this game.

 
bleachercreacher said:
I think off the ball fouls should be called, I just think that a majority of the off the ball fouls they called last night were absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary.  I believe Collins got called for 2 moving screens, and 1 was legitimate.  The call on Collins in the lane when he was posting up as the was awful too.  I know there were many more, but these are the two that stick out in my mind.  If the foul is committed, it should be called, but they weren't being committed anywhere near the rate that they were calling. 

I'm not saying that the game was officiated unevenly, it was equally atrocious.  What I'm saying is that the result of the fouls that were called effected Gonzaga significantly more than it did UNC, and it probably cost Gonzaga a NCAA title.  When the game had flow, for a little bit in the first half, UNC couldn't keep up with Gonzaga.  If you just add Collins to Gonzaga's team when he had to sit, Gonzaga wins this game.
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As I said, Collins also got away with a fairly hard on-ball foul, so if you're hypothetically taking a ticky-tack off-ball foul off the board for him you'd have to add that one too. Also like I said before Meeks got a cheapie fourth foul and had to leave the game from the 10 minute to 5 minute mark of the second half.

Also, assuming you're talking about the early Gonzaga run that turned a tie game into a seven point lead- that came during what I thought was a huge Roy Williams mistake (one of his few this postseason), when he fielded a unit with Pinson and four bench guys going into the second TV timeout.  The announcers didn't mention it so guessing most people missed it but the UNC fans I was with lost their minds. I think that was the reason for the run, not "game flow."  The Heels don't exactly have a problem with free-flowing games.

 
Back of the napkin math estimates the NCAA makes 33 million more holding it at a football stadium as opposed to a regular arena, so don't ever expect those days to return. 

 
Final Bracket results for the major metrics.  Kenpom even better than Vegas.  RPI = lol.


Bracket


 Percentile


Kenpom


88%


Vegas Futures


73%


Sagarin


78%


ESPN BPI


78%


Chalk


72%


Nate Silver(538)


58%


RPI


39%



ETA: This marks the third year in a row I've been looking this that kenpom comes out on top.

 
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Capella said:
Back of the napkin math estimates the NCAA makes 33 million more holding it at a football stadium as opposed to a regular arena, so don't ever expect those days to return. 
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NCAA would hold the entire Tournament in domes if they could.  But they are better off rotating early round sites and spreading them across the country,  

They used to put an early weekend at next year's Final Four site so the facility could have a practice run at hosting the event, adding at least six dome games to the bracket.

 
TobiasFunke said:
As I said, Collins also got away with a fairly hard on-ball foul, so if you're hypothetically taking a ticky-tack off-ball foul off the board for him you'd have to add that one too. Also like I said before Meeks got a cheapie fourth foul and had to leave the game from the 10 minute to 5 minute mark of the second half.

Also, assuming you're talking about the early Gonzaga run that turned a tie game into a seven point lead- that came during what I thought was a huge Roy Williams mistake (one of his few this postseason), when he fielded a unit with Pinson and four bench guys going into the second TV timeout.  The announcers didn't mention it so guessing most people missed it but the UNC fans I was with lost their minds. I think that was the reason for the run, not "game flow."  The Heels don't exactly have a problem with free-flowing games.
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I'm taking 3 fouls off of Collins count.  He had 2 legitimate fouls last night.  I remember both plays you are talking about, and agree with you.  Give Collins 3 fouls and Meeks 3 fouls and Gonzaga wins this game going away.  Heck, if Meeks if officiated like Collins was last night, he doesn't make it out of the first half.  He literally just lays on people.

 
bleachercreacher said:
I'm taking 3 fouls off of Collins count.  He had 2 legitimate fouls last night.  I remember both plays you are talking about, and agree with you.  Give Collins 3 fouls and Meeks 3 fouls and Gonzaga wins this game going away.  Heck, if Meeks if officiated like Collins was last night, he doesn't make it out of the first half.  He literally just lays on people.
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Sure, man.  Whatever you say.  It's all a conspiracy, probably.

 
I thought the revs played it tight, but these kids didn't know how not to play hard.  Not an all-time great game, but it was fine with me.

 
MattFancy said:
I'm on board with the stadium being the reason for the poor shooting. The vantage points have to be off in playing in such a big stadium compared to a basketball arena. But, it isn't going to change since the NCAA makes too much money to move it to a smaller venue.
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I was a sophomore or junior in high school when I saw North Carolina State play in the HHH Metrodome in Minneapolis.  So, 30+ years later we're going to start worrying about the vantage points?

 
MarvinTScamper said:
I was a sophomore or junior in high school when I saw North Carolina State play in the HHH Metrodome in Minneapolis.  So, 30+ years later we're going to start worrying about the vantage points?
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Some venues can be better than others. Anyone have any field goal percentage info from the last few years of final fours? Curious to see how they compare to the rest of tourney games and teams' average throughout the season.

 
MarvinTScamper said:
I was a sophomore or junior in high school when I saw North Carolina State play in the HHH Metrodome in Minneapolis.  So, 30+ years later we're going to start worrying about the vantage points?
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MattFancy said:
Some venues can be better than others. Anyone have any field goal percentage info from the last few years of final fours? Curious to see how they compare to the rest of tourney games and teams' average throughout the season.
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Sorry, I don't know how to multi-quote.  Anyway they moved away from the previous dome setup which was at one end of the stadium to the current "midfield" setup fairly recently.  538 did a bit explaining this and looking at the shooting numbers last year.  Although the numbers might look a little different after this year's poor shooting.

 
MattFancy said:
Some venues can be better than others. Anyone have any field goal percentage info from the last few years of final fours? Curious to see how they compare to the rest of tourney games and teams' average throughout the season.
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last year - Villanova shot 58% from the field in the Nat'l Chamionship vs 48% for the year - NRG Stadium

2015 - Duke shot 47% from the field vs 48% on the year - Lucas Oil Stadium 

2014 - UConn shot 41% from the field vs 45% on the year - AT&T Stadium

2013 - Louisville shot 46% from the field vs 46% on the year  - Georgia Dome

 
How does everyone feel about the hurt Gonzaga kid thinking he could win the game all by himself when down by 3. I mean he has heart but cmon.

 
He scored Gonzaga's last eight points before that, but yes, they probably should have come up with something better. Can't remember if they had a timeout left or not.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Up 1, opponent has no TOs, I think this is the exact right play. With four seconds left it doesn't really matter if you're winning by 1 or 2, and you're right the time to gather and outlet is going to kill a lot of the clock by the time the receiver gets the pass. You might have a shot if your rebounder is an excellent outlet passer, but still drawing pretty thin unless you have Kevin Love throwing an outlet to Steph Curry, to shoot an off-balance 35 footer. Even then it's still pretty thin. 

Up 2, at that point I think I try and make it. If it does go in, and I'm up 3, then I foul the opponent intentionally and make them shoot FT's. As hard as it is for a team to rebound, outlet, shoot in four seconds, if you're up 2 they're doing it for the win. If you're up 3, you foul, and then they have to make a FT, brick the second one on purpose, o-reb and score in a very limited amount of time for the tie.

It's a really narrow set of circumstances where you'd intentionally miss a FT with the lead and have it make sense. Don't think I've ever seen it before, although I have seen situations where I've realized that a team up 3 shooting its last FT with ~5 seconds left had the win/win situation of either salting the game away by going up 4, or by missing and, again, not leaving the opposing team time enough to get a shot off.
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It's really difficult to grab an offensive rebound on a missed free throw.  Why would they intentionally miss the free throw and then try to get the offensive rebound with Oregon in the DOUBLE bonus?  How often does Meeks get called for an over the back foul here at 2:50/2:51? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5GAG9qKVq8

If UNC has a foul to give, sure.  If UNC sends their players back, sure.  But you don't risk fouling a team in the double bonus on the very unlikely chance you get an OR off a missed free throw.  That's insane.

By the way here were Berry's FTs in the final four:

Oregon: made, made, made, made, MISSED, MISSED, made, MISSED, MISSED

Gonzaga: MISSED, made, made, made, MISSED, MISSED, MISSED, made

Seems like he is a giant choke imo.

I also think you two are vastly underestimating how quickly these athletes (especially since any coach should have a play drawn up in this specific situation) can get down the floor.  We aren't timing guys from the local YMCA 40+ rec league here.

 
tjnc09 said:
By the way here were Berry's FTs in the final four:

Oregon: made, made, made, made, MISSED, MISSED, made, MISSED, MISSED

Gonzaga: MISSED, made, made, made, MISSED, MISSED, MISSED, made

Seems like he is a giant choke imo.
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Yup.  The free throw he missed last year in the opening round game vs Florida Gulf Coast, leaving him a mere 19-20 from the line during UNC's postseason run to the ACC tournament title and the national championship game, still haunts my dreams.

 
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MattFancy said:
Some venues can be better than others. Anyone have any field goal percentage info from the last few years of final fours? Curious to see how they compare to the rest of tourney games and teams' average throughout the season.
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When I was in the states it was always a big deal in NorCal and State Finals if a team was perimeter oriented  or not as those games are played in a cavernous Arco (now Golden 1?).   Scoring was always WAY down for those teams.  The girls final this year, played beteween two of the top five teams in the country was 44-40.  The same two teams met earlier in the year in a 77-76 game.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Yup.  The free throw he missed last year in the opening round game vs Florida Gulf Coast, leaving him a mere 19-20 from the line during UNC's postseason run to the ACC tournament title and the national championship game, still haunts my dreams.
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:lmao:   shooting free throws in close elimination games is different than shooting free throws in elimination games where they won by 16, 19, 15, 14, 17 and then lost by three (where he shot 2 FT down 10).

 
tjnc09 said:
:lmao:   shooting free throws in close elimination games is different than shooting free throws in elimination games where they won by 16, 19, 15, 14, 17 and then lost by three (where he shot 2 FT down 10).
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He also went 4-4 from three in that 15-16 national championship game. And he went 6-6 from the line (and 3-3 from three) in the ACC tournament final vs UVA, one of the best and most tense games of the 15-16 season. And he pretty much single-handedly beat Duke down the stretch a month ago to lock up the 1 seed. And he was a combined 10-13 from the line during the regionals in Memphis. And he knocked down huge threes immediately after both of the instances in which Gonzaga briefly grabbed a lead during the second half last night (@ 12:37 and 4:20). And he's shot well from the line and otherwise performed well in the clutch in tons of other situations since becoming a starter at the beginning last season. And his last two FTs last night came after the game was effectively over. And he was hurt this postseason and it was widely reported that it affected his stroke. 

But sure, shrink your sample size to whatever parameters support your troll-ish conclusion that he's a choker.

 
TobiasFunke said:
He also went 4-4 from three in that 15-16 national championship game. And he went 6-6 from the line (and 3-3 from three) in the ACC tournament final vs UVA, one of the best and most tense games of the 15-16 season. And he pretty much single-handedly beat Duke down the stretch a month ago to lock up the 1 seed. And he was a combined 10-13 from the line during the regionals in Memphis. And he knocked down huge threes immediately after both of the instances in which Gonzaga briefly grabbed a lead during the second half last night (@ 12:37 and 4:20). And he's shot well from the line and otherwise performed well in the clutch in tons of other situations since becoming a starter at the beginning last season. And his last two FTs last night came after the game was effectively over. And he was hurt this postseason and it was widely reported that it affected his stroke. 

But sure, shrink your sample size to whatever parameters support your troll-ish conclusion that he's a choker.
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Joel Berry can't shoot free throws in late, competitive elimination games.  You spent a lot of time writing things that do nothing to disprove that. 

 
tjnc09 said:
Joel Berry can't shoot free throws in late, competitive elimination games.  You spent a lot of time writing things that do nothing to disprove that. 
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Then you're basing this on two missed three throws vs Oregon, since the other ones either weren't late or weren't competitive. But if manipulating data to falsely crap on some college kid makes you happy then you do you, GB.

And I'm delighted to "waste" my time on UNC's exploits over the last two seasons. I'll break down every player on the roster for both seasons this week if you want. It's basically what I'm gonna be doing instead of working anyway, in between watching the extended highlights and One Shining Moment over and over.

 
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