Official US Women's soccer thread: Gold Cup Final- US 1 - Brazil 0! (2 Viewers)

[stlrams]

Totally agree. She had no business playing. From what I remember, 3 corners that never got more 3-4 off the ground and at near post, badly miss pk, several passes to no body. The only passes she connected were back to defenders. Coach should be fired.

The odd thing about Rapinoe is that the coach was not afraid to exclude other stars from the past (like Christian Press) who were even younger than Rapinoe and showed similar signs of no longer being their best. Press was hurt at the time of the WC but she had also been left out of recent rosters when healthy.

Ironically the one reason he may have rostered Rapinoe was due to her experience in pk shoot outs.

Why play her up top when she historically played defense?

 

[encaitar]

Totally agree. She had no business playing. From what I remember, 3 corners that never got more 3-4 off the ground and at near post, badly miss pk, several passes to no body. The only passes she connected were back to defenders. Coach should be fired.

The odd thing about Rapinoe is that the coach was not afraid to exclude other stars from the past (like Christian Press) who were even younger than Rapinoe and showed similar signs of no longer being their best. Press was hurt at the time of the WCV but she had been left out of recent rosters when healthy.

Ironically the one reason he may have rostered her was due to her experience in pk shoot outs.

Rapinoe is probably the best set piece taker in US women's history. She won the Golden Boot at the last world cup due to scoring 3 PKs and 1 FK among her 6 goals and 2 of her 3 assists were on corners.

That is probably the exact reason she was brought in. Now, she did horribly at those things this time around, but I was certainly shocked to see her perform so badly at what she was supposedly best at.

 

[encaitar]

Totally agree. She had no business playing. From what I remember, 3 corners that never got more 3-4 off the ground and at near post, badly miss pk, several passes to no body. The only passes she connected were back to defenders. Coach should be fired.

The odd thing about Rapinoe is that the coach was not afraid to exclude other stars from the past (like Christian Press) who were even younger than Rapinoe and showed similar signs of no longer being their best. Press was hurt at the time of the WC but she had also been left out of recent rosters when healthy.

Ironically the one reason he may have rostered Rapinoe was due to her experience in pk shoot outs.

Why play her up top when she historically played defense?

She's always been a winger.

 

[belljr]

I don’t know enough to know whether they really deserved it, though I know there were a number of legal and contractual issues well beyond simple gender inequality.

Here is the rough skinny

1) A handful of years back, many on the US Women's national team could not sustain a career in soccer financially. The NWSL simply did not have the money to pay them a wage that was better than what they could do with their college degrees.

2) US Soccer was fearful that they were going to lose a large amount of national team players who would go on to other things

3) US Soccer reached back into their history and came up with a similar plan that they used for the men back in the early 90's, before MLS started. They decided to pay the NWSL salaries of the US National team players and while no one was getting rich, the national team players were given a salary that was far above the other NWSL players and allowed them to continue as professional soccer players.

4) A few years pass by and the women start to want equal pay for US national team games. On the surface, they were getting paid far less for National Team duty than the men were. But every time negotiations were held, US Soccer kept pointing out that they were paying their salaries and that the salaries had to factor into their over all compensation from US Soccer when comparing what they gave the men (which did not include any salary support).

5) They fought this out until they ended up in court in which the women lost, due to the salaries.

6) The women appealed and lost again

7) This is when they decided the only way to win was to use the court of public opinion and spread the gospel of equal pay.

8) US Soccer stood firm and the fight went on for way too long.

9) Eventually the deal US Soccer cut with the NWSL was set to expire. Once the salaries were off the US Soccer books, the two sides quickly agreed because US Soccer could finally give the women the exact same deal they gave the men.

10) This almost settled the whole thing, except for one MAJOR obstacle. The women also wanted the same bonus's the men would get from the WC's. This was a huge problem because US Soccer does not provide those bonuses, they come directly from FIFA. FIFA gives higher bonuses to the men than the women because they base it off of revenue.

11) This caused another prolonged fight until a compromise was made. The men decided to pool all of their bonus WC money that they would earn with the bonus money that the women would earn from the WC and then split it evenly. I believe we are the only federation that does this but I would guess it may become much more common in the future.

This ended the years long battle. It was very unfortunate because millions of dollars were wasted on lawyers when from the absolute jump every one could see the salaries were never going to be ignored when considering the compensation.

This is obviously a 50,000 foot view and there were many smaller steps in between but this should give you a rough outline of the process.

While this is all true the biggest factor was the US woman were a much bigger draw then the men in viewership/merchandise sales

 

[The Z Machine]

While this is all true the biggest factor was the US woman were a much bigger draw then the men in viewership/merchandise sales

I don't think that will be the case in 2022 - 2027.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

And how sick was Rodman? I hated they took her off because I felt she could provide a moment of magic but if she was spent then I get it.

She was clearly the best player on the field even sick. So I was pleplexed she was the first one subbed.

Better than Naeher and Girma - not for me? She was the best among a poor group of forwards, but imo none of the front band played as well as Horan, Ertz, Sonnett, Fox and Sullivan behind them

 

[CletiusMaximus]

While this is all true the biggest factor was the US woman were a much bigger draw then the men in viewership/merchandise sales

I don't think that will be the case in 2022 - 2027.

Among the several things working in their favor in the court of public opinion, the fact is the timing of the lawsuit and related media campaign could not have been better for them, riding an absolute high, on top of the world, while the men were crapping out in Couva. This is the circumstance that lead to situations like me being at a friends barbeque and just smiling and nodding while several guests confidently agreed the women could beat the men in a game.

 

[The Z Machine]

This is the circumstance that lead to situations like me being at a friends barbeque and just smiling and nodding while several guests confidently agreed the women could beat the men in a game.

Did you ask them if the field conditions were wet and bumpy?

 

[NewlyRetired]

I don't know exactly how they do this but it is fascinating none the less

====================


Eliot McKinley

@etmckinley

Simulating the shots that #USWNT took at the 2023 World Cup 250,000 times reveals that in only 1.85% of simulations did they score only 4 goals from their 85 shots and 9.3 xG. In another dimension, they score 15 and Vltako is a hero rather than a dead coach walking.

 

[rockaction]

This is the circumstance that lead to situations like me being at a friends barbeque and just smiling and nodding while several guests confidently agreed the women could beat the men in a game.

The quote function isn't working correctly. Want to make sure that people know this is Cletius's quote.

I was going to say that I've had a miserable morning and night, and that might be reflected in my performance on the board today. Then I hear quotes like this and it's exactly why I've said what I've said. Because people actually believe this **** and act indignantly when you tell them the truth.

Like you're a monster.

It's sad.

It's not all that important to me until confronted (like in '99) by women in one's life who honestly and earnestly believe this **** and believe you're a poopy pants if you don't agree with them wholeheartedly and actively judge you for it and the lack of opportunity presented to just prove it because it is so and would be proven otherwise if you hadn't conspired with the patriarchy to keep them down.

That's why I don't get reflexively sexist or too schadenfreudian about it. Because there are real people with real hopes and dreams and it's being sold and marketed as political and social justice. And it's a ****ing fantasy world that nobody should live in.

 

[The Z Machine]

I don't know exactly how they do this but it is fascinating none the less

====================


Eliot McKinley

@etmckinley

Simulating the shots that #USWNT took at the 2023 World Cup 250,000 times reveals that in only 1.85% of simulations did they score only 4 goals from their 85 shots and 9.3 xG. In another dimension, they score 15 and Vltako is a hero rather than a dead coach walking.

********. Lots of those shots weren't that dangerous. And something tells me SWE would have pushed harder on offense if they found themselves down a goal.

 

[stlrams]

And how sick was Rodman? I hated they took her off because I felt she could provide a moment of magic but if she was spent then I get i

She was clearly the best player on the field even sick. So I was pleplexed she was the first one subbed.

Better than Naeher and Girma - not for me? She was the best among a poor group of forwards, but imo none of the front band played as well as Horan, Ertz, Sonnett, Fox and Sullivan behind them

She was clearly the most dynamic player up-front. Naeher had one good save. girma was really good and our best defender.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Here is a stat that is the ultimate gut punch

==============

The US gave up 2 shots on goal, TOTAL, in all 4 games, and are going home before the quarter finals.

 

[AAABatteries]

This is the circumstance that lead to situations like me being at a friends barbeque and just smiling and nodding while several guests confidently agreed the women could beat the men in a game.

There’s no chance I could sit by and let this one slide. It’s crazy.

 

[NewlyRetired]

This is the circumstance that lead to situations like me being at a friends barbeque and just smiling and nodding while several guests confidently agreed the women could beat the men in a game.

There’s no chance I could sit by and let this one slide. It’s crazy.

Were you around during the Rhonda Rousey could beat the majority of the male fighters in the UFC, era? It was the same kind of nonsense.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

This is the circumstance that lead to situations like me being at a friends barbeque and just smiling and nodding while several guests confidently agreed the women could beat the men in a game.

The quote function isn't working correctly. Want to make sure that people know this is Cletius's quote.

I was going to say that I've had a miserable morning and night, and that might be reflected in my performance on the board today. Then I hear quotes like this and it's exactly why I've said what I've said. Because people actually believe this **** and act indignantly when you tell them the truth.

Like you're a monster.

It's sad.

It's not all that important to me until confronted (like in '99) by women in one's life who honestly and earnestly believe this **** and believe you're a poopy pants if you don't agree with them wholeheartedly and actively judge you for it and the lack of opportunity presented to just prove it because it is so and would be proven otherwise if you hadn't conspired with the patriarchy to keep them down.

That's why I don't get reflexively sexist or too schadenfreudian about it. Because there are real people with real hopes and dreams and it's being sold and marketed as political and social justice. And it's a ****ing fantasy world that nobody should live in.

I get it and surely have done similar things myself but it does come off as schadenfreude when you choose this particular moment to come into the thread and bring up an old trope we’ve all heard over the years and your comments had nothing to do with the game that just finished. For me it’s like going into a rival team’s thread in the football forum and pissing on them right after a gut punch loss when they‘re still mourning. It does seem like classic trolling to me - trying to provoke the exact reaction you got. It’s different if you’ve followed the team and been part of the community and watch the games prior to today.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

And how sick was Rodman? I hated they took her off because I felt she could provide a moment of magic but if she was spent then I get i

She was clearly the best player on the field even sick. So I was pleplexed she was the first one subbed.

Better than Naeher and Girma - not for me? She was the best among a poor group of forwards, but imo none of the front band played as well as Horan, Ertz, Sonnett, Fox and Sullivan behind them

She was clearly the most dynamic player up-front. Naeher had one good save. girma was really good and our best defender.

Naeher was a 10/10 if you include the shootout. I wonder whether Rodman would’ve taken a penalty if she were still in the game. I don’t know much about her but just based on her age I’d be reluctant to give her one. Obviously in retro she couldn’t have done any worse than Smith and Rapinoe.

 

[rockaction]

It’s different if you’ve followed the team and been part of the community and watch the games prior to today.

I think to follow the team and be part of the community would be in direct contradiction to how I feel about USWNT as an entity and the disingenuous political and social marketing done on their behalf (and by themselves). It wouldn't make any sense to hold the views I hold and follow them in an "our girls" type of way that so many do. I'd be a hypocrite. I look at them as old school, second-wave feminism agitators in the same mold as Gloria Steinem, repeating their same old tropes from the seventies, passing off warmed over **** as hot new justice. Have I rooted for them in the past? Yes, I have with skepticism. But the past four-six years were a bit much for me.

For me it’s like going into a rival team’s thread in the football forum and pissing on them right after a gut punch loss when they‘re still mourning

This is probably a fair assessment and one that I did not foresee when I made the comments I made. But I'm not walking any of those comments back, and I think they're fair and justified. Any "same old trope" allegation; however, has inherent in it that the reader is ascribing values to me I do not hold, though, so I'm not accepting that charge. There's no real "same old" about the trope.

 

[belljr]

So the women are now exactly equal to the men since the men never won an elimination but one time ........

 

[Tom Hagen]

Even though her and Smith may have been one cycle to early to be starters, they are likely going to have to build around these two going forward. The biggest issue right now is finding a new #9 (a problem that took the men years to solve on their side as we went pretty much the entire cycle chucking things at the wall and hoping they would stick).

With the rest of the world putting money into women's development, I wonder if the USWNT starts looking at recruiting dual nats. US troops in Germany must have had daughters also.

 

[encaitar]

Even though her and Smith may have been one cycle to early to be starters, they are likely going to have to build around these two going forward. The biggest issue right now is finding a new #9 (a problem that took the men years to solve on their side as we went pretty much the entire cycle chucking things at the wall and hoping they would stick).

With the rest of the world putting money into women's development, I wonder if the USWNT starts looking at recruiting dual nats. US troops in Germany must have had daughters also.

There were 53 American citizens playing for OTHER teams in this women's world cup. I think it'll be awhile before the US starts sniping talent in the women's game.

 

[Vanilla Guerrilla]

Thanks guys for doing a great job with stats of putting this in perspective. They statistically (other than the only stat that matters) played well, even though the last 2 matches looked awful to me. That Portugal game was one of the worst matches I feel I've ever watched.

 

[QuizGuy66]

We sticking with the rest of the tourney this thread? The England/Nigeria game was a tense one.

-QG

 

[Uruk-Hai]

We sticking with the rest of the tourney this thread? The England/Nigeria game was a tense one.

-QG

I'm gonna watch when I can, but don't post much because I know just this side of zero about soccer.

 

[The Z Machine]

We sticking with the rest of the tourney this thread? The England/Nigeria game was a tense one.

-QG

Stupid colonizers won this time.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Remember when the men's team won a world cup .... Good times

Did I do that right?

Sort of like saying Walter Hagen was the 3rd best golfer of all time since he has 11 majors. The competition stunk. The men have always had to play countries with resources poring into their programs. The women, maybe 3 other countries remotely cared about the results (Germany, Japan, Canada and for giggles throw in a Scandinavian country)

 

[BassNBrew]

I don’t know enough to know whether they really deserved it, though I know there were a number of legal and contractual issues well beyond simple gender inequality.

Here is the rough skinny

1) A handful of years back, many on the US Women's national team could not sustain a career in soccer financially. The NWSL simply did not have the money to pay them a wage that was better than what they could do with their college degrees.

2) US Soccer was fearful that they were going to lose a large amount of national team players who would go on to other things

3) US Soccer reached back into their history and came up with a similar plan that they used for the men back in the early 90's, before MLS started. They decided to pay the NWSL salaries of the US National team players and while no one was getting rich, the national team players were given a salary that was far above the other NWSL players and allowed them to continue as professional soccer players.

4) A few years pass by and the women start to want equal pay for US national team games. On the surface, they were getting paid far less for National Team duty than the men were. But every time negotiations were held, US Soccer kept pointing out that they were paying their salaries and that the salaries had to factor into their over all compensation from US Soccer when comparing what they gave the men (which did not include any salary support).

5) They fought this out until they ended up in court in which the women lost, due to the salaries.

6) The women appealed and lost again

7) This is when they decided the only way to win was to use the court of public opinion and spread the gospel of equal pay.

8) US Soccer stood firm and the fight went on for way too long.

9) Eventually the deal US Soccer cut with the NWSL was set to expire. Once the salaries were off the US Soccer books, the two sides quickly agreed because US Soccer could finally give the women the exact same deal they gave the men.

10) This almost settled the whole thing, except for one MAJOR obstacle. The women also wanted the same bonus's the men would get from the WC's. This was a huge problem because US Soccer does not provide those bonuses, they come directly from FIFA. FIFA gives higher bonuses to the men than the women because they base it off of revenue.

11) This caused another prolonged fight until a compromise was made. The men decided to pool all of their bonus WC money that they would earn with the bonus money that the women would earn from the WC and then split it evenly. I believe we are the only federation that does this but I would guess it may become much more common in the future.

This ended the years long battle. It was very unfortunate because millions of dollars were wasted on lawyers when from the absolute jump every one could see the salaries were never going to be ignored when considering the compensation.

This is obviously a 50,000 foot view and there were many smaller steps in between but this should give you a rough outline of the process.

Great summary.

Now because of the greed of one generation NWSL will struggle. The potential was there for it to be a top league. At least we’ll have the memories of the victory tour.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Remember when the men's team won a world cup .... Good times

Did I do that right?

Sort of like saying Walter Hagen was the 3rd best golfer of all time since he has 11 majors. The competition stunk. The men have always had to play countries with resources poring into their programs. The women, maybe 3 other countries remotely cared about the results (Germany, Japan, Canada and for giggles throw in a Scandinavian country)

It is no coincidence that the worst WC performance and the worst Olympic performance for the US women have come after many other countries have started to take the women's game a little more seriously.

 

[General Malaise]

Let the flatulence pass and it passes. Everybody can read and judge for themselves. I'd actually like the board less moderated and censorious than it is. That's why I'm saying what I'm saying right this very moment.

We got rid of the PSF for a reason. Told to leave that sort of rhetoric out of the FFA. So, I'm having a hard time accepting that sort of post as, well, acceptable. You might want less moderation, but this is the current landscape of the FFA, friend.

 

[rockaction]

You might want less moderation, but this is the current landscape of the FFA, friend.

What is the current landscape? The report button for things we find unacceptable? Whose line in the sand about what is and isn't acceptable are you willing to trust on that one? What about one man's gold is another man's rubbish and all that?

What if your comments were scrutinized by somebody with a less-than-forgiving outlook towards your political or social disposition and suspensions and banning hung in the balance? Would you feel comfortable with that?

There are no perfect answers. Just I would have let it pass and not gotten federal with somebody who is obviously either incapable of acting within Overton windows of social graces, or is trying to get your hackles raised (they are), or worse, lacks the ability to discern what is and isn't appropriate in any social setting.

 

[rockaction]

Anyway, we did this with Quez before. We have differing conceptions of the board and what should or shouldn't happen when a disturbed person uses it for a public airing of grievances.

 

[NewlyRetired]

While youth team results do not always match what senior teams do, there does seem to be a clear trend happening at all levels for the US.

From ESPN:

The USWNT's under-20 team did not get out of the group stage at both the 2022 and 2018 U-20 Women's World Cups.
The U-17 USWNT did get out of the group in 2022, only to be eliminated in its first knockout game, and previously crashed out of its groups in 2018 and 2014

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Well, this looked fun. In my head canon,, I'm now going to picture Carli Lloyd every time I read a rockaction post.

 

[identikit]

Well, this looked fun. In my head canon,, I'm now going to picture Carli Lloyd every time I read a rockaction post.

Sounded like Ms Lloyd was pretty much right about things throughout the tourney.

IMO

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Well, this looked fun. In my head canon,, I'm now going to picture Carli Lloyd every time I read a rockaction post.

Sounded like Ms Lloyd was pretty much right about things throughout the tourney.

IMO

I don't really see a correlation between Lloyd's criticisms and the way the team underperformed. I'm not bent out of shape that she made them. I've heard them before. But Rapinoe really didn't play that much. Smith is young enough so that she really doesn't fit with the group that Lloyd was talking about. Morgan is the only one that I can think of that has been both outspoken (though not really on the stuff that drives people crazy) and who had a really bad tournament.

I didn't think Rapinoe played very well in 2019, but she had some key goals and won the Golden Ball. It's a funny old game.

 

[rockaction]

Wait that tanner guy is quez? When did he get so angry? I don’t remember him like that.

Just to clarify. No, he's not. Quez got into QAnon stuff. Tanner9919 is a different guy that posts over in the SP (and has posted there for years) and seems to have massive trouble with etiquette, and sometimes seemingly borders on having trouble processing reality. And that's the rub with me and that. I'm going to leave it alone, and like I said, let GM have the last word.

 

[Capella]

Wait that tanner guy is quez? When did he get so angry? I don’t remember him like that.

Just to clarify. No, he's not. Quez got into QAnon stuff. Tanner9919 is a different guy that posts over in the SP (and has posted there for years) and seems to have massive trouble with etiquette, and sometimes seemingly borders on having trouble processing reality. And that's the rub with me and that. I'm going to leave it alone, and like I said, let GM have the last word.

Gotcha, thanks. Haven’t seen much of quez around lately so it would have made sense.

 

[Da Guru]

Well, this looked fun. In my head canon,, I'm now going to picture Carli Lloyd every time I read a rockaction post.

Sounded like Ms Lloyd was pretty much right about things throughout the tourney.

IMO

I don't really see a correlation between Lloyd's criticisms and the way the team underperformed. I'm not bent out of shape that she made them. I've heard them before. But Rapinoe really didn't play that much. Smith is young enough so that she really doesn't fit with the group that Lloyd was talking about. Morgan is the only one that I can think of that has been both outspoken (though not really on the stuff that drives people crazy) and who had a really bad tournament.

I didn't think Rapinoe played very well in 2019, but she had some key goals and won the Golden Ball. It's a funny old game.

Rapinoe is too old to play at the highest level, should not have made the team this year as it is time for fresh blood.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

The Danish team is easy on the eyes.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I saw Lauren James suspension got raised to two games for the dumb stomp. She is going to feel like crap if England go out before she gets back.

 

[rockaction]

Did GM and FreeBaGeL delete their posts in response to Tanner9919 or did a mod prune it? I look way out of context here. Perhaps I can delete my own? Would anybody object?

The "virtue jumping jacks" comment now looks directed at nobody but my imagination.

eta* Never mind. A mod had to prune it. Now I'm iso on the block, calling for the ball. Nobody is passing it to me. Heh. Boy, do I seem out of context with those comments.

 

[Rich Conway]

Did GM and FreeBaGeL delete their posts in response to Tanner9919 or did a mod prune it? I look way out of context here. Perhaps I can delete my own? Would anybody object?

The "virtue jumping jacks" comment now looks directed at nobody but my imagination.

eta* Never mind. A mod had to prune it. Now I'm iso on the block, calling for the ball. Nobody is passing it to me. Heh. Boy, do I seem out of context with those comments.

Hah, was wondering what the hell you were talking about! Edit: not your fault, just seemed odd coming from out of nowhere.

 

[General Malaise]

I didn't delete anything.

 

[rockaction]

I didn't delete anything.

I only fleetingly thought that then immediately figured it out, GB. I've deleted some of my comments that were referring to nothing now. Should be nice and confusing for the reader.

 

[General Malaise]

May we move forward and let the past fade away in the rear view mirror.

 

[The Z Machine]

Terrible reversal of a penalty called in the run of play. The Dutch should feel hard done.

 

[The Kansas Comet]

Terrible reversal of a penalty called in the run of play. The Dutch should feel hard done.

Agreed. Spain got away with one there. Totally unnecessary push in the back.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Terrible reversal of a penalty called in the run of play. The Dutch should feel hard done.

Agreed. Spain got away with one there. Totally unnecessary push in the back.

And now Spain gets a penalty kick. This ref really screwed the Dutch by not calling the shove.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Ridiculous penalty

 

[Nick Vermeil]

12 minutes. Haha