Redskins and the Rooney Rule (1 Viewer)

[monessen]

It seems inevitable that Daniel Snyder will be hiring Mike Shanahan soon. We are even hearing reports that Shanahan has begun assembling a coaching staff. Kudos to Jim Zorn for operating in such a hostile environment.

The point of this message is that, once again, the Rooney Rule has been followed in lip-service fashion. Jerry Gray has supposedly been interviewed, but it is essentially an obligatory action. Snyder simply needed to adhere to the rule and now he is covered. There will be those who say, well, Gray got some experience by virtue of an interview. But he's been to this rodeo before. How much more "experience" does he need from this bogus, courtesy-oriented, going through the motions nonsense? It seems like whenever there is a "done deal" with a particular coach already earmarked for a team, Gray is the designated "go to" token applicant.

Snyder can certainly hire Shanahan; that is his right. But the rather cynical use of Gray in this circumstance underscores again the dubious value of the Rooney Rule if teams continue to circumvent its intention.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

It seems inevitable that Daniel Snyder will be hiring Mike Shanahan soon. We are even hearing reports that Shanahan has begun assembling a coaching staff. Kudos to Jim Zorn for operating in such a hostile environment.

The point of this message is that, once again, the Rooney Rule has been followed in lip-service fashion. Jerry Gray has supposedly been interviewed, but it is essentially an obligatory action. Snyder simply needed to adhere to the rule and now he is covered. There will be those who say, well, Gray got some experience by virtue of an interview. But he's been to this rodeo before. How much more "experience" does he need from this bogus, courtesy-oriented, going through the motions nonsense? It seems like whenever there is a "done deal" with a particular coach already earmarked for a team, Gray is the designated "go to" token applicant.

Snyder can certainly hire Shanahan; that is his right. But the rather cynical use of Gray in this circumstance underscores again the dubious value of the Rooney Rule if teams continue to circumvent its intention.

It's intention is about as bogus as it gets. Move on.

 

[Sleeping King]

The entire rule is idiotic. Let's assume at some point the league has 17 of 32 coaches that are minority. At that point does a new rule need to be implemented saying you have to interview a white guy?

 

[Shaolin Hangman]

This is the natural byproduct of a stupid rule. What did you expect?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Snyder can certainly hire Shanahan; that is his right. But the rather cynical use of Gray in this circumstance underscores again the dubious value of the Rooney Rule if teams continue to circumvent its intention.

You're just now noticing this? It's a dumb rule, and has been from day one.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

The entire rule is idiotic. Let's assume at some point the league has 17 of 32 coaches that are minority. At that point does a new rule need to be implemented saying you have to interview a white guy?

Great post.

 

[Ozymandias]

The rule is only there for PR purposes, because the usual suspects were crying racism. Owners want to win, and they'll hire whoever gives them the best chance to win.

It's a stupid rule, but that's what our stupid culture demands.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches.

The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.

I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

 

[Chaka]

What constitutes a minority?

Would interviewing a Jew satisfy the rule?

Religious minorities?

Would interviewing a person of Hispanic descent still satisfy the rule in California?

What about a woman?

How about a person of mixed race (1/2 white), would you have to interview two of them to satisfy the rule?

 

[finito]

Not a Snyder fan but have no problem with this. As others have stated, the rule is ridiculous and this is to be expected.

 

[jackdubl]

What constitutes a minority?

Would interviewing a Jew satisfy the rule? No

Religious minorities?No.

Would interviewing a person of Hispanic descent still satisfy the rule in California?Yes, or anywhere else.

What about a woman?Yes.

How about a person of mixed race (1/2 white), would you have to interview two of them to satisfy the rule?No.

Say what you want about the rule, it has sped up the inevitable. There will always be cases where a coach has already been picked, regardless of the coach's race. But Mike Tomlin won the Pittsburgh job in the interview, Rooney said it himself, and who know's if he gets that interview without the rule.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches. The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

Is it still not a business? Are we going to have a Rooney rule for quarterbacks at some point? You say head-in-the-sand and I say affirmative action race-card-pulling.

 

[Keepers]

No doubt Gray knew beforehand that Shanahan has the inside track to the job, but he still decided to interview for his own reasons.

 

[Ozymandias]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches. The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

It is obscene, literally obscene that there are virtually no non-African American running backs in the NFL, because there are a lot of them in college.(The stupidity of that statement matches the stupidity above).

 

[Jason Wood]

Interviewing Jerry Gray and then having it "confirmed" in the media that it satisfied the Rooney Rule is, unfortunately, the natural evolution of an arbitrary rule with no teeth. The INTENT of the Rooney Rule is/was admirable, and if you look back to the debates about the rule at its onset, I argued vehemently for its value. But the critics pointed out how easily circumvented the rule would become, and the Gray interview is just the latest proof point supporting those claims.

This is a league run by captains of industry, generally smart, ambitious and intelligent men who have become obscenely wealthy (or maintained said wealth) in their other endeavors. To think they wouldn't have sniffed out a loophole and taken advantage of it in short order was naive.

Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

 

[Chaka]

What constitutes a minority?

Would interviewing a Jew satisfy the rule? No

Religious minorities?No.

Would interviewing a person of Hispanic descent still satisfy the rule in California?Yes, or anywhere else.

What about a woman?Yes.

How about a person of mixed race (1/2 white), would you have to interview two of them to satisfy the rule?No.

Say what you want about the rule, it has sped up the inevitable. There will always be cases where a coach has already been picked, regardless of the coach's race. But Mike Tomlin won the Pittsburgh job in the interview, Rooney said it himself, and who know's if he gets that interview without the rule.

What about people with prosthetic limbs?Color blindness?

What if the NFL puts a franchise in Mexico, will white people satisfy the rule for that team?

Left handers?

Homosexuals?

Chinese people (or east Indians)?

Libertarians?

People from Rhode Island?

Vegetarians?

People named Billy Joe?

 

[Chaka]

BTW doesn't the interview have to occur after the season to satisfy The Rule?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches. The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

It is obscene, literally obscene that there are virtually no non-African American running backs in the NFL, because there are a lot of them in college.(The stupidity of that statement matches the stupidity above).

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.Exactly which white RBs in college do you feel haven't had an adequate chance to prove themselves? Which white RBs do you believe went undrafted because they were white? From where I sit the NFL is about as pure a meritocracy as you could hope to find in terms of getting the best players on the field.Do you really believe whites are discriminated against as players?If not, do you believe that blacks aren't qualified to coach in the NFL? Because that's the parallel you just drew. Here are some facts for Oz and his fellow travelers:The first African-American head coach wasn't hired until 1989. Thirteen years later, in 2002 - the year before the Rooney rule went into effect, there were still only two.Seven years after the Rooney Rule shined a bright light on the problem there are TEN (IIRC). Including two Superbowl winners.

 

[Jason Wood]

BTW doesn't the interview have to occur after the season to satisfy The Rule?

Apparently not.http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4777140

Fritz Pollard Alliance chairman John Wooten said secondary coach Jerry Gray interviewed with owner Dan Snyder several weeks ago for the job that is currently held by Jim Zorn.

Wooten said the interview satisfies the Rooney Rule that requires teams to talk to a minority candidate when filling a head coaching position. Wooten said it didn't matter that the job is not yet vacant.

"Dan Snyder handled it the way it should have been handled," Wooten said. "He made a call in and he did it the right way."

 

[Chaka]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches.

The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.

I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

It is obscene, literally obscene that there are virtually no non-African American running backs in the NFL, because there are a lot of them in college.(The stupidity of that statement matches the stupidity above).

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.Exactly which white RBs in college do you feel haven't had an adequate chance to prove themselves? Which white RBs do you believe went undrafted because they were white?

Did you really mean to suggest that blacks aren't qualified to coach in the NFL? Because that's the parallel you just drew.

Here are some facts for Oz and his fellow travelers:

The first African-American head coach was hired in 1989. Thirteen years later, in 2002 - the year before the Rooney rule went into effect, there were still only two.

Seven years after the Rooney Rule shined a bright light on the problem there are TEN (IIRC). Including two Superbowl winners.

Mission accomplished!There is also a SB runner up in there too. And we have a President of 1/2 African descent.

Do you think that perhaps we can explore putting an end to The Rule at this point? If not at what point can we?

 

[Go DC Yourself]

Interviewing Jerry Gray and then having it "confirmed" in the media that it satisfied the Rooney Rule is, unfortunately, the natural evolution of an arbitrary rule with no teeth. The INTENT of the Rooney Rule is/was admirable, and if you look back to the debates about the rule at its onset, I argued vehemently for its value. But the critics pointed out how easily circumvented the rule would become, and the Gray interview is just the latest proof point supporting those claims.This is a league run by captains of industry, generally smart, ambitious and intelligent men who have become obscenely wealthy (or maintained said wealth) in their other endeavors. To think they wouldn't have sniffed out a loophole and taken advantage of it in short order was naive. Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

There are plenty of benefits to interviewing for jobs that you don't end up getting. Interviewing is a form of networking. Those involved in the process understand it. And poster wdcrob accurately describes the success of the Rooney Rule.

 

[jackdubl]

After reading Woods's post, I think many have misunderstood the intent of the Rooney rule. It was never meant to be a strict rule with teeth, never meant to force owners to hire a particular candidate. It was merely meant to increase the likelihood of black coaches being hired. It has done that and the results are hard to argue with. There were two black head coaches when the rule was created in 2002, there were nine at the transition between last season and this season if you count Herm, Romeo, and Dungy. That implies that the rule has been a great success.

A rule will look stupid if you don't understand its intent. The rules governing medical marijauna use seem overbroad and allow the prescription for every possible ailment or non-ailment, which is ridiculous, until you realize that its proponents just want to legalize marijauna. Then the rule makes sense.

 

[Jason Wood]

Interviewing Jerry Gray and then having it "confirmed" in the media that it satisfied the Rooney Rule is, unfortunately, the natural evolution of an arbitrary rule with no teeth. The INTENT of the Rooney Rule is/was admirable, and if you look back to the debates about the rule at its onset, I argued vehemently for its value. But the critics pointed out how easily circumvented the rule would become, and the Gray interview is just the latest proof point supporting those claims.This is a league run by captains of industry, generally smart, ambitious and intelligent men who have become obscenely wealthy (or maintained said wealth) in their other endeavors. To think they wouldn't have sniffed out a loophole and taken advantage of it in short order was naive. Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

There are plenty of benefits to interviewing for jobs that you don't end up getting. Interviewing is a form of networking. Those involved in the process understand it. And poster wdcrob accurately describes the success of the Rooney Rule.

I understand that side of it, but critics can't have it both ways. If the Gray interview was an abomination and a joke as so many are saying, then it can't at the same time have been a smart, beneficial thing for Gray to participate in. If there's value in his HAVING the interview, then there by definition had to have been value in the Skins CONDUCTING the interview with him, even if it ultimately circumvents the rule b/c they are set on Shanahan.

 

[Chaka]

BTW how about some props for Al Davis? Tom Flores, Art Shell, Amy Trask; say what you will about Al but he is light years ahead of the league in issues like this.

Considering how often he fires and hires new head coaches Al at least deserves an exemption from The Rule.

 

[zed2283]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches.

The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.

I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

It is obscene, literally obscene that there are virtually no non-African American running backs in the NFL, because there are a lot of them in college.(The stupidity of that statement matches the stupidity above).

That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read.Exactly which white RBs in college do you feel haven't had an adequate chance to prove themselves? Which white RBs do you believe went undrafted because they were white? From where I sit the NFL is about as pure a meritocracy as you could hope to find in terms of getting the best players on the field.

Do you really believe whites are discriminated against as players?

If not, do you believe that blacks aren't qualified to coach in the NFL? Because that's the parallel you just drew.

Here are some facts for Oz and his fellow travelers:

The first African-American head coach wasn't hired until 1989. Thirteen years later, in 2002 - the year before the Rooney rule went into effect, there were still only two.

Seven years after the Rooney Rule shined a bright light on the problem there are TEN (IIRC). Including two Superbowl winners.

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

 

[zed2283]

The entire rule is idiotic. Let's assume at some point the league has 17 of 32 coaches that are minority. At that point does a new rule need to be implemented saying you have to interview a white guy?

No... didn't you know that racism only works one way?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Interviewing Jerry Gray and then having it "confirmed" in the media that it satisfied the Rooney Rule is, unfortunately, the natural evolution of an arbitrary rule with no teeth. The INTENT of the Rooney Rule is/was admirable, and if you look back to the debates about the rule at its onset, I argued vehemently for its value. But the critics pointed out how easily circumvented the rule would become, and the Gray interview is just the latest proof point supporting those claims.This is a league run by captains of industry, generally smart, ambitious and intelligent men who have become obscenely wealthy (or maintained said wealth) in their other endeavors. To think they wouldn't have sniffed out a loophole and taken advantage of it in short order was naive. Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

There are plenty of benefits to interviewing for jobs that you don't end up getting. Interviewing is a form of networking. Those involved in the process understand it. And poster wdcrob accurately describes the success of the Rooney Rule.

I understand that side of it, but critics can't have it both ways. If the Gray interview was an abomination and a joke as so many are saying, then it can't at the same time have been a smart, beneficial thing for Gray to participate in. If there's value in his HAVING the interview, then there by definition had to have been value in the Skins CONDUCTING the interview with him, even if it ultimately circumvents the rule b/c they are set on Shanahan.

I think that there are plenty of cynical interviews and that the Redskins/Gray interview is probably one of them. But IMO even those are useful because they continue to make this issue visible. When Sherm and Marvin Lewis were passed over season after season for HC interviews you had a major problem. That would never happen today - the Rooney Rule would ensure that they got in front of owners and at the very least had a chance wow one of them. And being forced to interview minority candidates also puts subtle pressure on at least the more fair-minded of the owners to move out of their comfort zones.So yes, IMO even in an instance like the current one in Washington there's value in the Rooney Rule and value in the interview.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

BTW how about some props for Al Davis? Tom Flores, Art Shell, Amy Trask; say what you will about Al but he is light years ahead of the league in issues like this. Considering how often he fires and hires new head coaches Al at least deserves an exemption from The Rule.

Exemption granted.

 

[Chaka]

All kidding aside wdcrob is right. The Rule was necessary and it did help.

I just wonder if it has outlived its necessity.

 

[Go DC Yourself]

Interviewing Jerry Gray and then having it "confirmed" in the media that it satisfied the Rooney Rule is, unfortunately, the natural evolution of an arbitrary rule with no teeth. The INTENT of the Rooney Rule is/was admirable, and if you look back to the debates about the rule at its onset, I argued vehemently for its value. But the critics pointed out how easily circumvented the rule would become, and the Gray interview is just the latest proof point supporting those claims.This is a league run by captains of industry, generally smart, ambitious and intelligent men who have become obscenely wealthy (or maintained said wealth) in their other endeavors. To think they wouldn't have sniffed out a loophole and taken advantage of it in short order was naive. Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

There are plenty of benefits to interviewing for jobs that you don't end up getting. Interviewing is a form of networking. Those involved in the process understand it. And poster wdcrob accurately describes the success of the Rooney Rule.

I understand that side of it, but critics can't have it both ways. If the Gray interview was an abomination and a joke as so many are saying, then it can't at the same time have been a smart, beneficial thing for Gray to participate in. If there's value in his HAVING the interview, then there by definition had to have been value in the Skins CONDUCTING the interview with him, even if it ultimately circumvents the rule b/c they are set on Shanahan.

I'm not a critic of it. In this instance, Bruce Allen may know nothing of Jerry Gray. The interview exposes Bruce Allen to Jerry Gray. A few weeks from now, when a new GM and/or coach are putting together a staff, they can call up Bruce Allen and ask about Jerry Gray. Sure, they could ask Vinny Cerato or Jim Zorn or Greg Blatche about Jerry Gray, but depending on the particulars of their experience with the four, they may value Bruce Allen's opinion much more.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

As someone who is involved with business hiring, forced hiring practices (or the opposite, discrimination based wrongful termination suits) make me sick. This is nothing more than that. No one cries foul for Dungy hand picking his minority replacement and the ensuing circumvention of the Rooney rule.

 

[Jason Wood]

Interviewing Jerry Gray and then having it "confirmed" in the media that it satisfied the Rooney Rule is, unfortunately, the natural evolution of an arbitrary rule with no teeth. The INTENT of the Rooney Rule is/was admirable, and if you look back to the debates about the rule at its onset, I argued vehemently for its value. But the critics pointed out how easily circumvented the rule would become, and the Gray interview is just the latest proof point supporting those claims.This is a league run by captains of industry, generally smart, ambitious and intelligent men who have become obscenely wealthy (or maintained said wealth) in their other endeavors. To think they wouldn't have sniffed out a loophole and taken advantage of it in short order was naive. Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

There are plenty of benefits to interviewing for jobs that you don't end up getting. Interviewing is a form of networking. Those involved in the process understand it. And poster wdcrob accurately describes the success of the Rooney Rule.

I understand that side of it, but critics can't have it both ways. If the Gray interview was an abomination and a joke as so many are saying, then it can't at the same time have been a smart, beneficial thing for Gray to participate in. If there's value in his HAVING the interview, then there by definition had to have been value in the Skins CONDUCTING the interview with him, even if it ultimately circumvents the rule b/c they are set on Shanahan.

I'm not a critic of it. In this instance, Bruce Allen may know nothing of Jerry Gray. The interview exposes Bruce Allen to Jerry Gray. A few weeks from now, when a new GM and/or coach are putting together a staff, they can call up Bruce Allen and ask about Jerry Gray. Sure, they could ask Vinny Cerato or Jim Zorn or Greg Blatche about Jerry Gray, but depending on the particulars of their experience with the four, they may value Bruce Allen's opinion much more.

That's a fair point, thanks for articulating that side of things.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Interviewing Jerry Gray and then having it "confirmed" in the media that it satisfied the Rooney Rule is, unfortunately, the natural evolution of an arbitrary rule with no teeth. The INTENT of the Rooney Rule is/was admirable, and if you look back to the debates about the rule at its onset, I argued vehemently for its value. But the critics pointed out how easily circumvented the rule would become, and the Gray interview is just the latest proof point supporting those claims.This is a league run by captains of industry, generally smart, ambitious and intelligent men who have become obscenely wealthy (or maintained said wealth) in their other endeavors. To think they wouldn't have sniffed out a loophole and taken advantage of it in short order was naive. Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

There are plenty of benefits to interviewing for jobs that you don't end up getting. Interviewing is a form of networking. Those involved in the process understand it. And poster wdcrob accurately describes the success of the Rooney Rule.

I understand that side of it, but critics can't have it both ways. If the Gray interview was an abomination and a joke as so many are saying, then it can't at the same time have been a smart, beneficial thing for Gray to participate in. If there's value in his HAVING the interview, then there by definition had to have been value in the Skins CONDUCTING the interview with him, even if it ultimately circumvents the rule b/c they are set on Shanahan.

I'm not a critic of it. In this instance, Bruce Allen may know nothing of Jerry Gray. The interview exposes Bruce Allen to Jerry Gray. A few weeks from now, when a new GM and/or coach are putting together a staff, they can call up Bruce Allen and ask about Jerry Gray. Sure, they could ask Vinny Cerato or Jim Zorn or Greg Blatche about Jerry Gray, but depending on the particulars of their experience with the four, they may value Bruce Allen's opinion much more.

I don't understand why this couldn't happen with a much less racially geared set-up. Why can't the rule be something like, teams are required to interview 5 candidates for open head coaching and general manager positions? Period.

 

[zed2283]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

Why do you say that? Maybe they aren't as good of coaches, ever think about that? If whites represent 70% of the population, why is it "unfair" if 70% of head coaches, front office personnel, etc. are white?

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

Why do you say that? Maybe they aren't as good of coaches, ever think about that? If whites represent 70% of the population, why is it "unfair" if 70% of head coaches, front office personnel, etc. are white?

Because race-math is funny math.

 

[Yenrub]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

As someone who is involved with business hiring, forced hiring practices (or the opposite, discrimination based wrongful termination suits) make me sick. This is nothing more than that. No one cries foul for Dungy hand picking his minority replacement and the ensuing circumvention of the Rooney rule.

They aren’t forced to HIRE any oneMy guess would be that Polian named Dungy’s replacement not Dungy but let’s say it was Dungy

Did you have a problem with the Seahawks naming Mora as Homlgren’s replacement?

 

[monessen]

My sense is that, if Morris is one and done in Tampa, the dingdong brothers there that hired Marvin Lewis as HC then reneged when Gruden became available, will fly in Jerry Gray for a hollow interview before offering the job to Bill Cowher. I believe their rationale for pulling the rug out from Lewis was that he and former coach Dungy were too similar in philosophy. They can possibly use that justification again with regard to Morris and Gray. They'll overpay for Cowher. They were ready to do the same for Parcells.

In reply to Jason Wood, whose points are well-taken and with which I agree, Gray may be trying to play the good soldier until owners can't just disregard him anymore. Susan Lucci eventually won her daytime Emmy that way.

BTW, I don't think President Obama interviewed Gray before offering Dan Rooney the U.S. Ambassadorship to Ireland. The Rooney Rule didn't apply in that context to Dan Rooney, but he was the beneficiary of having impressed Obama with his commitment to minority hiring.

 

[The Westin]

It's not like they're forcing people to hire someone based on their race, it's just interviews so I don't see the big deal. I think it's completely unneccessary and I think it's ridiculous that getting more black head coaches is a "goal" of the NFL....who gives a damn what color a guy is? You hire who you think gives you the best chance to win. But like I said, it's interviews, so whatever

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

So did you really just say that whites aren't qualified to play RB in the pros? Are you really saying that white athletes aren't as fast, strong, athletic, or smart as black athletes? That's what it sounds like to me.

I dunno. But how awesome is it that we don't have to guess?! Why don't you check the combine results and get back to me with your findings. I'm not arguing for equality of results - only equality of opportunity. And IMO white RBs have 100% the opportunity that black RBs have. While blacks have not had the same good fortune in terms of head coaching jobs.

As someone who is involved with business hiring, forced hiring practices (or the opposite, discrimination based wrongful termination suits) make me sick. This is nothing more than that. No one cries foul for Dungy hand picking his minority replacement and the ensuing circumvention of the Rooney rule.

They aren’t forced to HIRE any oneMy guess would be that Polian named Dungy’s replacement not Dungy but let’s say it was Dungy

Did you have a problem with the Seahawks naming Mora as Homlgren’s replacement?

My only problem with the Mora hire was that Mora is a bad coach. But, I didn't say I had a problem with who was hired. I said that when it's the minority ignoring the rule, nobody says anything. And that says something to me about those who were screaming the loudest. They don't want equality, they want to scream.

 

[jackdubl]

Maybe there will be a time when the Rooney rule becomes outdated, but it ain't now. Just because you aren't racist doesn't mean there isn't racism. Anyone catch the news story of the Louisiana Judge who was forced to retire because he refused to marry mixed race couples? It happened in 2009 people! There's a lot of old farts who are still living in the past, and some young farts in certain places that are doing the same. And believe me, a lot of owners are real old farts.

 

[fatness]

Here's what I don't understand. Why would Jerry Gray take the interview? Did he really think he had a shot at the job for a second? Did he figure there was no downside to the interview even if he suspected it was a dead end? If the interview is widely viewed as a joke from the start, shouldn't some of the criticism fall on Gray (or other guys like Dennis Green who performed a perfunctory role with Dallas for his friend Jerry Jones so they could hire Parcells?)

That one's fairly simple: Jerry Gray wants to be a head coach. He interviewed for the Lions job before they hired Schwartz, and he interviewed for the University of Houston HC job. Obviously he wants to be a head coach. I doubt he would have taken any of those interviews if he felt there was no chance at getting the job. And getting recognized as a HC candidate can raise the possibility of getting future HC interviews. Really, if you want to be a head coach, the way to get there is not by turning down interviews.

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches. The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

It is obscene, literally obscene that there are virtually no non-African American running backs in the NFL, because there are a lot of them in college.(The stupidity of that statement matches the stupidity above).

VERY VERY

 

[jackdubl]

It was obscene (literally, obscene) that in a league where the majority of the players are African-American there were virtually no minority coaches. The rule was put in to make the issue high-profile enough so that even head-in-the-sand folks like those in this thread might take notice. To that extent it's obviously been a roaring success.I'll let someone else do the research on minority head coaches before and after the rule, but I think you'll find that the results are black and white.

It is obscene, literally obscene that there are virtually no non-African American running backs in the NFL, because there are a lot of them in college.(The stupidity of that statement matches the stupidity above).

VERY VERY

Yeah, there needs to be a rule that says white guys can try out for running back if they want.

 

[elmanx]

After reading Woods's post, I think many have misunderstood the intent of the Rooney rule. It was never meant to be a strict rule with teeth, never meant to force owners to hire a particular candidate. It was merely meant to increase the likelihood of black coaches being hired. It has done that and the results are hard to argue with. There were two black head coaches when the rule was created in 2002, there were nine at the transition between last season and this season if you count Herm, Romeo, and Dungy. That implies that the rule has been a great success.

The truth is that we'll never really know if the rule was a success or not. The only way to know is if we could compare the situation now to what would have happened if there was no Rooney rule. And I think that there would have been more Black head coaches hired anyway as more and more Black coaches were getting experience as assistants and college coaches. I think that both on the field and off, NFL owners are going to hire the best personnel to win. But even if that's not true, the rule is irrelevant.

If an owner has something against Black head coaches, he's going to just go through the motions and hire a White guy.

If an owner just wants to win, then he's going to spare no expense and do an exhaustive search to find the right guy regardless of what color they are. The thought that wealthy NFL owners with every resource at their disposal need something as silly as the Rooney rule to discover a strong black candidate is laughable.

Also the fact that Rooney said that Tomlin got the job because of the Rooney rule has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Obviously he is going to say positive stuff about the Rooney rule.

 

[jackdubl]

After reading Woods's post, I think many have misunderstood the intent of the Rooney rule. It was never meant to be a strict rule with teeth, never meant to force owners to hire a particular candidate. It was merely meant to increase the likelihood of black coaches being hired. It has done that and the results are hard to argue with. There were two black head coaches when the rule was created in 2002, there were nine at the transition between last season and this season if you count Herm, Romeo, and Dungy. That implies that the rule has been a great success.

The truth is that we'll never really know if the rule was a success or not. The only way to know is if we could compare the situation now to what would have happened if there was no Rooney rule. And I think that there would have been more Black head coaches hired anyway as more and more Black coaches were getting experience as assistants and college coaches. I think that both on the field and off, NFL owners are going to hire the best personnel to win. But even if that's not true, the rule is irrelevant.

If an owner has something against Black head coaches, he's going to just go through the motions and hire a White guy.

If an owner just wants to win, then he's going to spare no expense and do an exhaustive search to find the right guy regardless of what color they are. The thought that wealthy NFL owners with every resource at their disposal need something as silly as the Rooney rule to discover a strong black candidate is laughable.

Also the fact that Rooney said that Tomlin got the job because of the Rooney rule has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Obviously he is going to say positive stuff about the Rooney rule.

All good points. But I think you give owners a little too much credit. Coaches didn't play black QBs for a long time for mostly the same reasons owners didn't hire black coaches. But you'd figure coaches would put the best talent on the field as well.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Who the hell is Jerry Gray?

Nevermind...

Yeah, he needs a shot. Fairly impressive resume.

 

[monessen]

Jerry Gray--outstanding U of Texas cornerback, NFL player, and defensive coach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Gray

Mookie, I know you asked me to move on after raising this topic, but it clearly had legs. I say give the forum fans a choice. There's probably a thread somewhere about how Justin Forsett might do against Tennessee (probably really well if Julius Jones is out), so some fans can chime in on that one wherever it is.

Interestingly, Dan Rooney ordered Chuck Noll to fire Tony Dungy from the Steeler coaching staff after the '88 season. And, when teams interested in Dungy as a potential head coach would contact Rooney for a reference, old Dan would say Tony didn't have the necessary demeanor to be one (too nice a guy). To his credit in later years, Rooney admitted he was wrong. It may have been one of the early seeds for his advocacy of the Rule.

 

[elmanx]

After reading Woods's post, I think many have misunderstood the intent of the Rooney rule. It was never meant to be a strict rule with teeth, never meant to force owners to hire a particular candidate. It was merely meant to increase the likelihood of black coaches being hired. It has done that and the results are hard to argue with. There were two black head coaches when the rule was created in 2002, there were nine at the transition between last season and this season if you count Herm, Romeo, and Dungy. That implies that the rule has been a great success.

The truth is that we'll never really know if the rule was a success or not. The only way to know is if we could compare the situation now to what would have happened if there was no Rooney rule. And I think that there would have been more Black head coaches hired anyway as more and more Black coaches were getting experience as assistants and college coaches. I think that both on the field and off, NFL owners are going to hire the best personnel to win. But even if that's not true, the rule is irrelevant.

If an owner has something against Black head coaches, he's going to just go through the motions and hire a White guy.

If an owner just wants to win, then he's going to spare no expense and do an exhaustive search to find the right guy regardless of what color they are. The thought that wealthy NFL owners with every resource at their disposal need something as silly as the Rooney rule to discover a strong black candidate is laughable.

Also the fact that Rooney said that Tomlin got the job because of the Rooney rule has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Obviously he is going to say positive stuff about the Rooney rule.

All good points. But I think you give owners a little too much credit. Coaches didn't play black QBs for a long time for mostly the same reasons owners didn't hire black coaches. But you'd figure coaches would put the best talent on the field as well.

Yes, but that problem (i.e., the Black QB one), resolved itself without any such rule. I think that the Black Coach problem would have resolved itself similarly. I think that the Rooney rule just happened to be enacted around the time the coach problem was going to solve itself. But that's just my guess, and I admit that. There's no way we'll ever know for sure.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Jerry Gray--outstanding U of Texas cornerback, NFL player, and defensive coach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Gray

Mookie, I know you asked me to move on after raising this topic, but it clearly had legs. I say give the forum fans a choice. There's probably a thread somewhere about how Justin Forsett might do against Tennessee (probably really well if Julius Jones is out), so some fans can chime in on that one wherever it is.

Interestingly, Dan Rooney ordered Chuck Noll to fire Tony Dungy from the Steeler coaching staff after the '88 season. And, when teams interested in Dungy as a potential head coach would contact Rooney for a reference, old Dan would say Tony didn't have the necessary demeanor to be one (too nice a guy). To his credit in later years, Rooney admitted he was wrong. It may have been one of the early seeds for his advocacy of the Rule.

I have no idea what you're getting at in the first paragraph. Yes the topic has legs - it's a race driven topic in the land of FBGs. And in the second paragraph: What does firing Dungy have to do with hiring coaches that are minorities?