"doing whats right" in this situation is subjective. I agree there is a problem, and it may or may not be able to be fixed in the scoring settings. As a commish, adjusting scores "subjectively" is a quick way to destroy a league. The way it is, its the same for all so it is FAIR. Sometimes doing nothing takes more "backbone" than appeasing a pissed off owner. I missed spoke when I said NFL stat, I should have said the website stats. they are accurate based on how your scoring system is setup.
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Stat Question - I think I was robbed of a week 1 win, commish disagree (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Cyclones
- Start date
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
its not scoring subjectively---the nature of the scoring system is crystal clear--the scoring of the stat was done improperly. Changing it next year is an admission that the scoring is being done incorrectly--so whats right--to score an entire season incorrectly--when the person who was wronged by the mistake noticed it immediately--even before week 2 has ended--or to solve the problem and put a message on the leagues message board to the scoring error. We've barely started week 2 here--if this was week 13--you'd probably have a point. On top of that--if a commish doesn't do whats right because he's worried about one upset owner---you are basically saying that it's better to score an entire season improperly than it is to be fair and piss off one owner--who happened to be granted a bogus win--I'd call that not having a backbone (no offense--I'm speaking hypothetically here).
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I will agree that it is early enough in the season to address if the league is on board. We do not even know if the website being utilized will allow for this to be fixed and manual adjustments all season long are not a solution. unless this is addressed in your written rules already. We actually have a very thick rule book covering many possible scenarios to avoid these types problems. This particular problem hasnt come up because we award the TD to the player...and the fumble
The reason for waiting is becasue the season has started, week 2 has started and even though the rule may be wrong or screwed up it is constistant and fair, ie same for all teams.
The commish does not own the league, everyone has an equal stake and equal say, the commish is to resolve conflicts and enforce rules. We allow the commish to interpret rules but we can also challenge the interpretation and there is a means to overrule the commsih ( in our league)
I should add, if the leagues rules specifically stated the individuals returning kicks do not get charged with a fumble then there should be no arguement or problem making a manual ajustment
The reason for waiting is becasue the season has started, week 2 has started and even though the rule may be wrong or screwed up it is constistant and fair, ie same for all teams.
The commish does not own the league, everyone has an equal stake and equal say, the commish is to resolve conflicts and enforce rules. We allow the commish to interpret rules but we can also challenge the interpretation and there is a means to overrule the commsih ( in our league)
I should add, if the leagues rules specifically stated the individuals returning kicks do not get charged with a fumble then there should be no arguement or problem making a manual ajustment
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Cyclones
Footballguy
I should also point out that I texted the commish a couple of minutes after the muff and pointed this out, as our live scoring showed the negative 2 points. He replied that the site would correct it overnight on Monday before the official scores were posted. When that didn't happen, he was unwilling to manually correct it. So, he agrees it was applied improperly but is deferring to the flaw in the sites scoring system.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
The op just stated in a post that he notified the commish about the scoring issue a couple of minutes after it happened--this issue should have been resolved before week 2 even started. The problem here is entirely with the commish not applying the nfl's stats to the ops fantasy football scoring system properly. Again--I understand where you are coming from--but this is a clear case of a d-bag commish who doesn't have a backbone to do what is right.
we are on CBS , used to love it and hate all of the changes the last few years. We moved 1 league to MFL and it is frustrating, just setting up waivers and free agency took forever and several emails for help. so far disappointed in it. FFPC use RTS, not very familiar but I would imagine since hi stake leagues use it, it would have enouigh variables to cover the situation.
Cyclones
Footballguy
There is precedent - my first year in this league I had Reggie Bush and he returned a couple of kicks for TDs (back In his saints days.) When they weren't scored for me, I called the commish and his reply was "individuals don't exist on defense or special teams in this league." Lesson learned at that point since that's what the rules said. This situation is exactly the same, but not being scored properly by the site.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Right. - Sec. 13(1)(b): "Loss of player possession by unsuccessful execution of attempted handling is a fumble charged to the player that last had possession. A muffed handoff legal or illegal is a fumble and the ball remains alive."
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2012%20-%20Rule%20Book.pdf
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
I'm a commish of a CBS league, and we have the same issue every year. CBS doesn't differentiate between fumbles that happen on DST or on offense. Our rules sound pretty similar to yours, and we've made this change manually many times. (including this week).
This is simply a cop out and a bad ruling by your commish. Your rules should trump any flaws in the websites scoring abilities.
This is simply a cop out and a bad ruling by your commish. Your rules should trump any flaws in the websites scoring abilities.
I was looking quickly at RTs and didnt see a stat to substract for a defensive team fumble. didnt see it on CBS either. If you do not have a scoring parameter for an individual KR/PR then I would think there would be on points plus or minus for a play inovling that player. I suggest emails RTS and asking them about it, work around your commsih. help him do his job. At least they can explain why the stat is the way it is
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
this whole "everything needs to be well written" enough to cover it is lame. It is absolutely in the spirit of the leagues scoring system that individual players are separated from special teams play. If an offensive player cannot score positive points from special teams--then how is it in the realm of reasonable thought that he should be subject to negative points? The way his league is supposed to be set up is that special teams stats get reflected in defensive teams. Seriously--does somebody need to wear a t-shirt that clearly says "d-bag" on it to know if that person is a "d-bag"--- it's amazingly pathetic that people are willing to completely abandon a molecule of logic and morality and need every little thing to be spelled out for them for them to differentiate between what is wrong and right. I don't see any city bylaws that prohibit being an ##### to every citizen I see---does that give me a green light to do that? Believe it or not--sometimes it's the right thing to do to use a tiny bit of common sense.
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Pipes
Footballguy
I agree with this. The league rules seem pretty clear and the scoring isn't correct on the website. It's absolutely assinine to think that individual players can lose points on special teams but cannot gain points.
MFL does have a stat catagory for fumbles on St and fumbles on defense, maybe this is where your league needs to move.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
maybe his commish needs grow a pair and do what a commish is supposed to do---do whats right in the spirit of the rule. We are talking about a game where millions of different things can happen--where those millions of different things are quantified as good as they possibly can be by programs and websites--but there is a limitation to what these programs can do--glitches happen, leagues have specific scoring parameters that the programs are incapable of recognizing. For anybody to think that it is even possible to somehow quantify or foresee the potential billions of issues that could arise from this dynamic and have a clearly written rule for every one of them is absolutely and completely absurd. This is why a commish exists--he or she is supposed to be a person that the league trusts to uphold fairness and the spirit of the rules that their particular league is governed by and manually adjust the shortcomings or limitations of these stats and programs. The issue is not how the nfl scored it, nor the program they are using in the league--the problem is that the commish in this persons league is clearly going against what the spirit of how his league is supposed to be scored. Why don't you just admit that? First---it's the rule has to be super clearly written down exactly--as if no reasonable people can interpret the spirt of the rules. Then it's you should move your league somewhere else...etc. Call a spade a spade-- the commish of this league is a moron.
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OG_GF
Footballguy
I was in a league once where the tiebreaker for the playoffs was written as: Divisional record, head to head, most points ... Etc. Everyone in the league thought that meant WITHIN your own division, even the commish. However, a d-bag player that was not in my division, had lost to me head to head, and had less points pointed out the rule, and within his division he had a better record. The d-bag commish then applied that rule, as written and his team went to the playoffs over my team.
Lesson learned? Don't play with d-bags.
Lesson learned? Don't play with d-bags.
King of the Wolfies
Footballguy
every league that I have been in as scored that as a player fumble. its one of the reasons i tend to avoid players that do returns. the other one to watch for is the forward fumble for an offensive TD. the recovering player rarely gets credit for the TD.
chickensoup
Footballguy
Sure they will count that as a fumble for the player, but most leagues also credit the individual with at least TDs they score on special teams, his does not. If EVERY league your in does things this way, you enter actually pretty specific leagues with what most would consider an absurd concept. a player can only score negative points while performing an on field action (returning kicks) that actually plays an important part of winning football games.
Picking a player that also returns kicks should never be pure negative because of a faulty rule
KingPrawn
Footballguy
THIS!!! Rules cannot possibly cover every different scenario that might happen, no matter how well the rules are written. The commissioner has and should have the latitude to rule what is best for the league based on the spirit of the rules. There was a precedent set when players were not awarded points for TDs scored on special teams and the commissioner stated then "individuals don't exist on defense or special teams in this league." He also acknowledged the scoring error when called about it when it first happened and he stated "the site will correct it overnight". He is either being too lazy or too wimpy by not making the change. Either case, he should not be commissioner. At the very minimum, he should put it up for league vote, laying out in a non-biased manner the case for either side.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Update? Did the commish finally accept logic?
This entire thread is a reminder of why we should limit voting rights based on IQ.
This entire thread is a reminder of why we should limit voting rights based on IQ.
shadyridr
Footballguy
DID ANYONE FUMBLE a punt last year and did they lose the 2 pts?
Insein
Footballguy
If this happened in my league and the rules were worded that way, I'd make the change as commish. It seems that fumbles on special teams were not intended when the rules were made.
On a side note, did CBS change this setting? We only changed to MFL this year but I don't remember cbs giving fumbles to our offensive players on st in my league. The real solution is to leave cbs. They keep raising the price and taking away more and more each year. On top of that it has more ads than yahoo at this point. Worst value in the industry.
On a side note, did CBS change this setting? We only changed to MFL this year but I don't remember cbs giving fumbles to our offensive players on st in my league. The real solution is to leave cbs. They keep raising the price and taking away more and more each year. On top of that it has more ads than yahoo at this point. Worst value in the industry.
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Steeler
Footballguy
I read more of the thread... the rules were not entered by the commish, but the site is clearly calculating the points different from the way the rules are written. OP should be awarded the win this week.
gambla
Footballguy
Same thing happened in a big money league I commish. Guy brought it up to me right after the game. I told him it was intended to not be set up that way as I wanted the defense to score all those points or be negated any points. It was something I had incorrectly done on the front end. I changed the rule to make it correct an retroactively altered the scoring so week 1 would be affected as well.
I emailed the league and explained the problem and no one even made a whiff of an objection (in a league where I typically get many voiced opinions). It was the right thing to do since the intention all along was to have the defense score all the points. There was no bias on my part...it was just the right thing to do.
I simply changed "fumbles lost" to "fumbles lost on offense". Problem solved.
I emailed the league and explained the problem and no one even made a whiff of an objection (in a league where I typically get many voiced opinions). It was the right thing to do since the intention all along was to have the defense score all the points. There was no bias on my part...it was just the right thing to do.
I simply changed "fumbles lost" to "fumbles lost on offense". Problem solved.
ffinmyblood
Footballguy
This too. Another dumb fantasy FF "standard scoring" setting. In what freaking universe should a receiver or a RB getting a hundred yards be worth more than a touchdown?? TD's are the highest scores in real football, why the hell aren't they in fantasy football?? You want to award a "minimal" point total of like 3 Pts for 100 yds etc, that seems reasonable, but 1 point for every 10 yards rushing/receiving?? Or 4 points for a passing TD?? My guy rushes for 120 yards, your guy scores two TD's and zero yards and your guy is just as valuable as mine?? What a joke. The name of the game is to score points...points in an NFL game are NOT awarded by yardage, they are awarded by TD's, FG's, Safety's and XP's. That's how the game should be played. If 35 points is generally enough to win an NFL game, it should be enough to win your fantasy game.
ffinmyblood
Footballguy
Again, everyone here is missing the real ossue(s). Why the hell are we subtracting points in Fantasy games anyway(this would be a total non discussion if that were the case), and secondly, on the whole "individual player/special teams issue", don't use TEAM defenses. Use individual defensive players. Your guy scores a TD on special teams, you get the points, if he doesn't, you don't. I don't understand why Fantasy football rules/scoring have changed so much they now leave themselves open for questions such as this. KISS....keep it simple stupid. Award points for the things the NFL does, give bonus points for 100 yds rush/receiving/300 passing(and above) and use individual defensive players. Easy peasy japaneasy. Why make it so difficult like it is now?? It's not a basketball game folks(where todays FF 100+ points is the norm) it's football. 35 points in an NFL game is a lot of points, it should be in fantasy too. Period. End of discussion.
Purple_King
Footballguy
Would you accept it if welker scores a touchdown on a punt return? If you do, then you should have no problem if he loses points for fumbling on a punt return.
Insein
Footballguy
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Donnybrook
Footballguy
There are gaps in IDP as well. Unless your scoring has the same rules for offensive players as defensive players. Mine doesn't. On the off chance that Patrick Peterson catches a ball or scores a TD on offense, he gets zero in my league.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
read the thread---the point is that his league does not give offensive players points for touchdowns---if welker had scored only the denver d would have gotten the points. If an offensive player is not recognized by his leagues rules to be able to get points--its perfectly within the realm of reason to deduce that the same player wouldn't be subject to losing points. With you being clear on this now--what are your thoughts?
Donnybrook
Footballguy
This happened last year when Gore recovered a Kaepernick fumble and ran it in for a TD. Gore was never credited for the TD. I remember because I had Gore and that play almost cost me a playoff win.
Purple_King
Footballguy
Based on that, Welker should not lose points than.jvdesigns2002 said:
Insein
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
The gaps are only there if you don't set things up correctly. I've tried to set up scoring to cover every possible scenario. After that you have to use bylaws to correct the holes left behind. If Peterson plays half dozen plays on offense, then he is obviously of more value to the Cardinals and this should carry over to fantasy football.Donnybrook said:
I know some people want to keep things simple. I prefer to have things mimic the NFL as much as possible. To each his own though.
the UFFRM
Footballguy
This is wrong. On that play Welker is on the special teams unit. He fumbled, you lose points. Put the ball on the ground and those are the consequences. This is one thing you just have to deal with when you play in team defense leagues.
Insein
Footballguy
Unless of course that league has it in their rules that a special teams fumble does not lose points. Again read the thread.
TheLurkerBelow
Footballguy
That's far from the end of the discussion. If you aren't being rhetorical and really want an answer to your question I'll give you my version. The idea with a fantasy football scoring system is to as accurately as possible translate the value of the production of real life players into value for your fantasy team. If your goal is to match values, then you can't ignore everything that happens between the end zones as you suggest we should. A RB who grinds out yards all the way down the field but doesn't get the touchdown is still very valuable to his NFL team, and a good fantasy scoring system translates that value to a fantasy team.ffinmyblood said:
That is why you give negative points for some things, that is why you give points for yards, or sacks, or fumble recoveries, and that's also what makes it even more fun to watch football when you have fantasy players playing in a game.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
This is fantasy football. Teams can score however they like. We use NFL stats as the default in the rare event that we don't have rules in place to cover a situation.
I'm surprised that RT scores it this way. We've used RT for 10 years, maybe more, and I don't remember this being an issue. And I was commissioner most of those years.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
Right. The whole "we should mimic the real game as much as possible" argument is not compelling. This is magic football afterall.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
How is it wrong? Based on his league's scoring-- his league does not recognize offensive players on special teams plays as offensive players during those plays. His leagues scoring system lumps those players into the defensive scoring system--meaning that had welker scored the td--the denver defensive team would have gotten the points-not welker. It is completely absurd to believe that it is in the spirit of his leagues scoring system to only recognize the offensive player in instances of negative points--but to completely abandon the recognition in positive plays. Based on this--it is crystal clear that the intent of his leagues scoring system is to apply all special teams positive points and negative points to the defensive team section. However--in order to do this--because of the limitations of the website that his league is run--and the fact that the NFL does not organize stats to be directly correlate with every leagues fantasy scoring system --it's required that his commish manually handle scoring glitches like this. If you are going to try to make a point--please back it up with a reasoning or rationale. Posts saying "tell him not to fumble the ball, or take your medicine" don't contribute anything.
boots11234
Footballguy
Is this a ppr? If so by your commish's logic you should have gotten one point for reception and -2 for fumble. Thus a tie. Because he had to receive the ball before fumbling. You got screwed.
Hello,
Right now, we do not get an interpretation from our stats provider for what type of plays " fumbles lost" occur , so if you don't want the deduction for the WR fumble, the commissioner can manually remove that fumble. We are hoping to change that with our stats provider, but not sure when that change might happen, hopefully this year.
So in these cases, you can manually edit game scores on the Score board - Gamecast page. Thus, you can add/remove pts and make a note why the adjustment was made.
Thanks,
Angie
www.rtsports.com
angie@rtsports.com
Right now, we do not get an interpretation from our stats provider for what type of plays " fumbles lost" occur , so if you don't want the deduction for the WR fumble, the commissioner can manually remove that fumble. We are hoping to change that with our stats provider, but not sure when that change might happen, hopefully this year.
So in these cases, you can manually edit game scores on the Score board - Gamecast page. Thus, you can add/remove pts and make a note why the adjustment was made.
Thanks,
Angie
www.rtsports.com
angie@rtsports.com
the UFFRM
Footballguy
My point is that you just have to live with the scoring how it is set up. When you play in a team defense/ special teams league any player who participates in those specific snaps are lumped together and that's just the way it is. You can't have a player who happens to play offense just arbitrarily treated differently. You may think that is exactly your point but I guarantee there have been other times in the past/present/future where this wrinkle affected numerous fantasy outcomes and it went unnoticed or was disregarded. What you need to do is change the rules for next year if you feel that strongly about it. Your only other option would be to watchdog every muffed kick or punt return along with the commish retroactively for week 1 and all weeks going forward this year which sounds like a huge waste of time/effort. What you should really be doing is playing in a return yardage league where team defense has nothing to do with special teams scoring or else maybe a return yardage IDP league.
The commissioner's logic is that you are being fussy about a detail that caused you a H2H loss putting him in the position where he has to look like the bad guy from either your perspective or the guy you will beat if anything is changed. It's a no-win situation that you are forcing him into which is most likely what he is really resenting. That's why you should take your medicine so to speak and work with the commissioner and the rest of the league to change the league format/scoring for the upcoming year. That way you can be the good guy and say you don't think it's set up fairly and you'd hate to see anyone else lose in the same fashion so it needs to be changed. One H2H loss in week 1 shouldn't be a big deal unless you think your team is just that bad. I play in a few leagues where luck is dampened by playing the league average in addition to H2H so low scoring wins aren't rewarded and high scoring losses are easier to live with. That could help as well.
Sorry to be blunt earlier.
The commissioner's logic is that you are being fussy about a detail that caused you a H2H loss putting him in the position where he has to look like the bad guy from either your perspective or the guy you will beat if anything is changed. It's a no-win situation that you are forcing him into which is most likely what he is really resenting. That's why you should take your medicine so to speak and work with the commissioner and the rest of the league to change the league format/scoring for the upcoming year. That way you can be the good guy and say you don't think it's set up fairly and you'd hate to see anyone else lose in the same fashion so it needs to be changed. One H2H loss in week 1 shouldn't be a big deal unless you think your team is just that bad. I play in a few leagues where luck is dampened by playing the league average in addition to H2H so low scoring wins aren't rewarded and high scoring losses are easier to live with. That could help as well.
Sorry to be blunt earlier.
