The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

Could be some (unintentional) backwards reasoning. Starting with a preferred or intuited conclusion, and then working backwards to find amenable facts.

Agreed. I'm always hesitant to lean too hard on claims of plenty of data when the thing one's measuring is so subjective.

I do feel pretty comfortable saying, at least from the Christian perspective that I'm familiar with, if we follow the outline and live as our faith instructs us to with a focus on "loving your neighbor - and everyone is your neighbor, especially the people that don't look, think or agree with you", things tend to go better.

The catch of course is actually living the way we're instructed to.

 

[TennesseeJed]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

That's mostly because their Christ is only a prophet, he hasn't yet been promoted to Son deity.

 

[Gally]

The less religious people have become, the crazier the world has become, maybe there's no correlation but if I know the average person, many of them need a good reason to be a good person.


Even if it's all fugazi, if religion was stopping people from stealing, committing adultery, and killing then the decline of religion is a bad thing.



Some people don't have that internal moral compass and some of us only have that moral compass because our previous generations built a society with these principles engrained and/or our parents instilled the values of those religions onto us.



I'll take the pretty lie of God if it keeps society from acting like animals, because otherwise that's all we are, animals, and the less of God there is, the more people seem to be acting like them.

Not aware of any data that confirms that. Plenty that shows the opposite though.

Come on, man. I'm open to the suggestion that this is just the poct hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but people have obviously become somewhat less religious and somewhat more crazy over the last ~20 years. No data you can possibly produce is going to convince us that water isn't actually wet. Look around.

What metric are you using for ‘crazy’? Violent crime has and continues to trend down

I'm using the metric of looking around and asking myself if what I see resembles a healthy society on a positive trajectory.

This is a difficult topic to debate, so I'm not going to bother to try. If you think our society is doing well at the moment, fine. We view reality very, very differently though.

It’s definitely not doing fine, it’s a trainwreck. Always has been, probably always will be. Can’t get around human nature. I’m looking at long-term trends over large samples of people. If you’re looking at (for example) Florida over the last 20 years, I whole-heartedly agree it appears ‘crazier’.

I’m not making any causal linkages by the way to religion or lack thereof, just saying over time that human suffering, crime, war, etc. is slowly decreasing.

Perhaps you guys are looking more at mental health. That’s tougher to quantify.

I wonder if things "seem" worse because there is more access to information and the "crazy" then there has ever been. Have things actually gotten worse or do you just get inundated with the crazy because of social media and access to info from all over the place?

 

[Captain Cranks]

I'm using the metric of looking around and asking myself if what I see resembles a healthy society on a positive trajectory.

- Murder rates are lower in more secular countries.
- Of the top 50 least violent cities in the world, nearly all of them are in less religious countries.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher murder rates and religiosity.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher violent crime and religiosity.
- In the US, the most religious states suffer the highest poverty, obesity, infant mortality, STDs, and teen pregnancy.

What exactly is "healthy" about being more religious?

 

[Joe Bryant]

- Murder rates are lower in more secular countries.
- Of the top 50 least violent cities in the world, nearly all of them are in less religious countries.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher murder rates and religiosity.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher violent crime and religiosity.
- In the US, the most religious states suffer the highest poverty, obesity, infant mortality, STDs, and teen pregnancy.

Can you please share links for these studies? Thank you.

 

[SuperFantasyFootballGuy]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

It is if you pick the right religion. Don't conflate Christianity with what's going on over there.

This is way too oversimplified. This is, after all, a thread about America. I don't think anyone here thinks what's going on in the Middle East has any parallels to what is going on in America.


Let me know the last time there was a Christian suicide bomber in the United States. It's like saying all dogs are violent because pitbulls are violent. Don't throw away the baby with the bath water.

 

[SuperFantasyFootballGuy]

I don't know why the barometer is just killing people either. What about divorce and adultery? We just going to ignore that those aren't on the rise?


Sin comes in many forms. Greed, sloth, vanity, etc. What about mass shootings? I don't think many of those people end up being religious fanatics and there is definitely a correlation between that and the drop in religious belief.


Not that it's a smoking gun, but the topic is so nuanced than to think you can just throw a few blanket statements or statistics and have an answer. Like most things you can find data on both sides of the argument, part of it is going to come down to personal experience I suppose as we don't have data for everything.


Doesn't invalidate either sides's argument, anyone who firmly believes their side is right or wrong is truly overestimating how nuanced of a topic on this really is.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Can you please share links for these studies? Thank you.

Reference to the studies are on pages 955 - 961 here

 

[Kev4029]

I don't know why the barometer is just killing people either, lol. What about divorce and adultery? We just going to ignore that those aren't on the rise?


Sin comes in many forms. Greed, sloth, vanity, etc.

This could be highly correlated to the loss of religion, but probably not for the reasons you are thinking. The biggest rise of divorce rates began as society gave women autonomy and an option of leaving bad marriages. Prior to WW2, it would have been remarkably difficult to leave a marriage as a woman, regardless of cause, but as we (society) started treating women as men's equals and as they began to enter the workforce, it gave them both the means (money) and societal ability to leave a marriage without the social stigma previously given to women who left their husbands.

I have a close family member that was born in the late 30s and married around 1960 in the south - her husband was constantly abusing her, cheating on her, and molesting their children. She didn't leave, partial due to religious reasons, societal/family pressure, and the fact that she was uneducated and without the means to support herself and her kids. She stayed with her husband through decades of this but ultimately forgave him as he became a born-again Christian (stating this not as an indictment on born-again Christians, just as context for her reasoning).

Is it a bigger moral failing by society to allow that sort of situation persist or to allow for the woman in this situation to leave the marriage? This is a relatively extreme, but not nearly as uncommon at the time as you would think, situation, but I think the answer is incredibly obvious.

 

[SuperFantasyFootballGuy]

I don't know why the barometer is just killing people either, lol. What about divorce and adultery? We just going to ignore that those aren't on the rise?


Sin comes in many forms. Greed, sloth, vanity, etc.

This could be highly correlated to the loss of religion, but probably not for the reasons you are thinking. The biggest rise of divorce rates began as society gave women autonomy and an option of leaving bad marriages. Prior to WW2, it would have been remarkably difficult to leave a marriage as a woman, regardless of cause, but as we (society) started treating women as men's equals and as they began to enter the workforce, it gave them both the means (money) and societal ability to leave a marriage without the social stigma previously given to women who left their husbands.

I have a close family member that was born in the late 30s and married around 1960 in the south - her husband was constantly abusing her, cheating on her, and molesting their children. She didn't leave, partial due to religious reasons, societal/family pressure, and the fact that she was uneducated and without the means to support herself and her kids. She stayed with her husband through decades of this but ultimately forgave him as he became a born-again Christian (stating this not as an indictment on born-again Christians, just as context for her reasoning).

Is it a bigger moral failing by society to allow that sort of situation persist or to allow for the woman in this situation to leave the marriage? This is a relatively extreme, but not nearly as uncommon at the time as you would think, situation, but I think the answer is incredibly obvious.

I love this place. Everyone here is so smart, hilarious that I can find this kind of insight on a fantasy football website of all places


Thank you for taking the time to share your perspective and experience. God bless.

 

[BlackCrowes]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

It is if you pick the right religion. Don't conflate Christianity with what's going on over there.

This is way too oversimplified. This is, after all, a thread about America. I don't think anyone here thinks what's going on in the Middle East has any parallels to what is going on in America.


Let me know the last time there was a Christian suicide bomber in the United States. It's like saying all dogs are violent because pitbulls are violent. Don't throw away the baby with the bath water.

The ‘right’ religion?

 

[SuperFantasyFootballGuy]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

It is if you pick the right religion. Don't conflate Christianity with what's going on over there.

This is way too oversimplified. This is, after all, a thread about America. I don't think anyone here thinks what's going on in the Middle East has any parallels to what is going on in America.


Let me know the last time there was a Christian suicide bomber in the United States. It's like saying all dogs are violent because pitbulls are violent. Don't throw away the baby with the bath water.

The ‘right’ religion?

You heard me, but that is a personal belief in which I am not comfortable discussing with a stranger on the internet.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm using the metric of looking around and asking myself if what I see resembles a healthy society on a positive trajectory.

- Murder rates are lower in more secular countries.
- Of the top 50 least violent cities in the world, nearly all of them are in less religious countries.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher murder rates and religiosity.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher violent crime and religiosity.
- In the US, the most religious states suffer the highest poverty, obesity, infant mortality, STDs, and teen pregnancy.

What exactly is "healthy" about being more religious?

Do you think the US is on an upward trajectory? This is a yes or no question. Feel free to define "upward trajectory" in whatever way strikes you as most appropriate.

Edit: To speed things along, if your answer is "yes," my response is going to be "cool -- you should keep it up then." If your answer is "no," my response is going to be "cool -- we agree."

 

[TennesseeJed]

I'm using the metric of looking around and asking myself if what I see resembles a healthy society on a positive trajectory.

- Murder rates are lower in more secular countries.
- Of the top 50 least violent cities in the world, nearly all of them are in less religious countries.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher murder rates and religiosity.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher violent crime and religiosity.
- In the US, the most religious states suffer the highest poverty, obesity, infant mortality, STDs, and teen pregnancy.

What exactly is "healthy" about being more religious?

Do you think the US is on an upward trajectory? This is a yes or no question. Feel free to define "upward trajectory" in whatever way strikes you as most appropriate.

Yes.

 

[SuperFantasyFootballGuy]

I'm using the metric of looking around and asking myself if what I see resembles a healthy society on a positive trajectory.

- Murder rates are lower in more secular countries.
- Of the top 50 least violent cities in the world, nearly all of them are in less religious countries.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher murder rates and religiosity.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher violent crime and religiosity.
- In the US, the most religious states suffer the highest poverty, obesity, infant mortality, STDs, and teen pregnancy.

What exactly is "healthy" about being more religious?

Do you think the US is on an upward trajectory? This is a yes or no question. Feel free to define "upward trajectory" in whatever way strikes you as most appropriate.

Edit: To speed things along, if your answer is "yes," my response is going to be "cool -- you should keep it up then." If your answer is "no," my response is going to be "cool -- we agree."

If it makes you feel better, I agree with a lot of what you've written but it's not as much fun sitting on the internet agreeing with people, is it?

 

[Captain Cranks]

Do you think the US is on an upward trajectory? This is a yes or no question. Feel free to define "upward trajectory" in whatever way strikes you as most appropriate.

Edit: To speed things along, if your answer is "yes," my response is going to be "cool -- you should keep it up then." If your answer is "no," my response is going to be "cool -- we agree."

In some ways yes, in some ways no. The yes is because crime is down and gender and racial equality is up, the latter being something Christians in this country have been an impediment to. The no is because of social media, cable news, and an increasingly corrupt government.

 

[-fish-]

I'm using the metric of looking around and asking myself if what I see resembles a healthy society on a positive trajectory.

- Murder rates are lower in more secular countries.
- Of the top 50 least violent cities in the world, nearly all of them are in less religious countries.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher murder rates and religiosity.
- In the US, there's a positive correlation between states with higher violent crime and religiosity.
- In the US, the most religious states suffer the highest poverty, obesity, infant mortality, STDs, and teen pregnancy.

What exactly is "healthy" about being more religious?

Seems like the same correlations would apply to poor education or poverty. Would it be all that surprising if the people with the least opportunity also turned to religion?

 

[TripItUp]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

What's deemed "moral" in one country may be very different than how other countries define morality. So, I don't agree with your implication about the Middle East.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

What's deemed "moral" in one country may be very different than how other countries define morality. So, I don't agree with your implication about the Middle East.

Agreed and also, there are no peer countries to the US in the ME. If you wanted to find examples of "Christian" countries that are basket cases, just keep heading south into the sub-Saharan part of Africa. None of the experiences of any of those countries tell us anything about how religion intersects with society in a country like the US.

And this should go without saying, but nobody anywhere believes that societies can be sorted lexicographically by religion. Some highly-religious countries fare a lot worse than some very secular countries, and some secular countries fare worse than some more religious countries. Nobody thinks that a little more religiosity can outweigh a lot more political polarization, a much weaker media ecosystem, much more dysfunctional government, etc. Societies seldom rise and fall for monocausal reasons. This is just one thing on the margin IMO.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Seems like the same correlations would apply to poor education or poverty. Would it be all that surprising if the people with the least opportunity also turned to religion?

Yeah, I think it's socioeconomic rather than religiosity. This was just an objective rebuttal to the opinion that reduced religiosity is driving our societal issues. As far as I've seen that opinion is nothing more than baseless wish casting.

 

[Joe Bryant]

In some ways yes, in some ways no. The yes is because crime is down and gender and racial equality is up, the latter being something Christians in this country have been an impediment to. The no is because of social media, cable news, and an increasingly corrupt government.

Thanks.

Overall, what would you say is the trajectory?

For your statement that Christians have been an impediment to racial equality, can you elaborate specifically what you mean there? And the time period you mean? Thanks.

 

[FairWarning]

The less religious people have become, the crazier the world has become, maybe there's no correlation but if I know the average person, many of them need a good reason to be a good person.


Even if it's all fugazi, if religion was stopping people from stealing, committing adultery, and killing then the decline of religion is a bad thing.



Some people don't have that internal moral compass and some of us only have that moral compass because our previous generations built a society with these principles engrained and/or our parents instilled the values of those religions onto us.



I'll take the pretty lie of God if it keeps society from acting like animals, because otherwise that's all we are, animals, and the less of God there is, the more people seem to be acting like them.

Not aware of any data that confirms that. Plenty that shows the opposite though.

Come on, man. I'm open to the suggestion that this is just the poct hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but people have obviously become somewhat less religious and somewhat more crazy over the last ~20 years. No data you can possibly produce is going to convince us that water isn't actually wet. Look around.

What metric are you using for ‘crazy’? Violent crime has and continues to trend down

I'm using the metric of looking around and asking myself if what I see resembles a healthy society on a positive trajectory.

This is a difficult topic to debate, so I'm not going to bother to try. If you think our society is doing well at the moment, fine. We view reality very, very differently though.

It’s definitely not doing fine, it’s a trainwreck. Always has been, probably always will be. Can’t get around human nature. I’m looking at long-term trends over large samples of people. If you’re looking at (for example) Florida over the last 20 years, I whole-heartedly agree it appears ‘crazier’.

I’m not making any causal linkages by the way to religion or lack thereof, just saying over time that human suffering, crime, war, etc. is slowly decreasing.

Perhaps you guys are looking more at mental health. That’s tougher to quantify.

I wonder if things "seem" worse because there is more access to information and the "crazy" then there has ever been. Have things actually gotten worse or do you just get inundated with the crazy because of social media and access to info from all over the place?

I think it’s social media and the fringes get an equal voice. Look at how many people get info from Tik Tok and IG, not much factchecking there. It’s confirmation bias at the highest level.

 

[tri-man 47]

When I was a kid in Catholic school, we would change the lyrics to the songs to be dirty. I remember one specific song called "Though the Mountains May Fall" and we changed it to be about poop and would sing it in church.

You can tell religion really stuck with me.

Every so often we have a hymn that uses the word "trod", and I always rhyme it with "you're such a stupid clod". I also sing "he rules the world with an iron first..." in 'joy to the world". And when they send the kids out for children's liturgy of the word, I always sing (quietly) "get out children, get out get out. Get out children and don't come back".

I'm 52. Lol

User name checks out.

 

[Ilov80s]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

That's mostly because their Christ is only a prophet, he hasn't yet been promoted to Son deity.

So you think only through Christianity can a society be moral?

 

[Captain Cranks]

Overall, what would you say is the trajectory?

For your statement that Christians have been an impediment to racial equality, can you elaborate specifically what you mean there? And the time period you mean? Thanks.

On the edges, society definitely feels like it's on a downward trajectory, but I blame that on technology (social media / fragmented news that make money off of confirmation bias). However, forcing it into a binary option really ignores a lot of good (or bad if your answer is upward trajectory) in the world.

I'd prefer not to answer your second question as I fear it would take this conversation too far into political territory.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'd prefer not to answer your second question as I fear it would take this conversation too far into political territory.

That's probably best.

Or better, probably best to not have made the first accusation. Especially when a Christian pastor and Christian Churches were instrumental in the movement.

We'll drop that line here.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

That's mostly because their Christ is only a prophet, he hasn't yet been promoted to Son deity.

So you think only through Christianity can a society be moral?

Not to speak for the poster, but I don't think it's remotely accurate to think society can only be moral through religion. And I don't think that's what the poster is saying at all. I don't know anyone who thinks that. Clearly, there are tons of wonderful (and moral) influences on society outside of religion or Christianity.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

That's mostly because their Christ is only a prophet, he hasn't yet been promoted to Son deity.

So you think only through Christianity can a society be moral?

No, I think any person and any society can be moral with or without religion. My remark was a toss off showing how some religions carry similar stories and lessons but come to different conclusions on how to carry out the message.

 

[Kev4029]

I'd prefer not to answer your second question as I fear it would take this conversation too far into political territory.

That's probably best.

Or better, probably best to not have made the first accusation. Especially when a Christian pastor and Christian Churches were instrumental in the movement.

We'll drop that line here.

Feels like you are goading somebody into breaking your own rules with this whole statement. And your previous post for that matter.

I think its very fair to say that some Christians have been instrumental in assisting with race relations but some have taken advantage of others' faith to make things worse. It's impossible to group hundreds of millions of Americans with the loose affiliation of the VERY broad Christian religion into the same pot. There always have been and always will be people that use any religion for good and bad.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'd prefer not to answer your second question as I fear it would take this conversation too far into political territory.

That's probably best.

Or better, probably best to not have made the first accusation. Especially when a Christian pastor and Christian Churches were instrumental in the movement.

We'll drop that line here.

Feels like you are goading somebody into breaking your own rules with this whole statement. And your previous post for that matter.

I think its very fair to say that some Christians have been instrumental in assisting with race relations but some have taken advantage of others' faith to make things worse. It's impossible to group hundreds of millions of Americans with the loose affiliation of the VERY broad Christian religion into the same pot. There always have been and always will be people that use any religion for good and bad.

I said drop it. No idea how you think that could be "goading".

Dropping that particular line of discussion is what we'll do here.

To your point, absolutely, there will always be people who use anything for good or bad.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I wonder if things "seem" worse because there is more access to information and the "crazy" then there has ever been. Have things actually gotten worse or do you just get inundated with the crazy because of social media and access to info from all over the place?

I think that's a fair point. We've never had more easy access to more information than today. That isn't always necessarily a great thing.

 

[Ilov80s]

Kind of funny that people equate religion with some form or morality - or "better' society.

The Middle East is probably one of the most religious dominated areas in the world - and I don't think anyone equates that region with morality or a "better society.

That's mostly because their Christ is only a prophet, he hasn't yet been promoted to Son deity.

So you think only through Christianity can a society be moral?

No, I think any person and any society can be moral with or without religion. My remark was a toss off showing how some religions carry similar stories and lessons but come to different conclusions on how to carry out the message.

Not sure I totally agree with that conclusion but I get you weren’t saying what I said.

 

[Jayrod]

Some of this "negative trends in society" being related to a "decline in religion" is confusing correlation with causation.

They are both happening at the same time and seem correlated, but we may not actually be seeing a cause-effect relationship. The sample size is pretty small to be honest.

One thing I believe is more cause-effect is that secularization of society has followed wealth/affluence/comfort of society. I mentioned it earlier, but as people become more self reliant and comfortable they become less religious. Why do people need to turn to God if they believe they've got everything comfortably under control? The lack of need for a tangible savior overrides the need for a spiritual savior. It is also easy to distract from any inner turmoil with entertainment options and self-medicate with alcohol or marijuana. I personally believe these are bad things, but I think the decline in religion is more a result of these issues and not the cause.

I believe some of what we are seeing as the decline is society is due to a myriad of sources. Isolationism caused by social media, widening socioeconomic disparity, political baiting and fear mongering and (closer to on our main point) an increase in selfish-centeredness all contribute to social "decline", IMO. Equating or connecting decline to any one thing while not recognizing the others paints an incomplete picture.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Yes. Causation / Correlation is one of the more challenging aspects of discussion. In just about every area.

I spend most of my time on predicting Football trying to parse out the differences.

 

[Jayrod]

Yes. Causation / Correlation is one of the more challenging aspects of discussion. In just about every area.

I spend most of my time on predicting Football trying to parse out the differences.

Good point. Trying to make accurate pre-season NFL projections is equally as daunting as trying to explain why society does what it does. So many factors are at play it becomes more art and less science.

 

[Captain Cranks]

Some of this "negative trends in society" being related to a "decline in religion" is confusing correlation with causation.

They are both happening at the same time and seem correlated, but we may not actually be seeing a cause-effect relationship. The sample size is pretty small to be honest.

One thing I believe is more cause-effect is that secularization of society has followed wealth/affluence/comfort of society. I mentioned it earlier, but as people become more self reliant and comfortable they become less religious. Why do people need to turn to God if they believe they've got everything comfortably under control? The lack of need for a tangible savior overrides the need for a spiritual savior. It is also easy to distract from any inner turmoil with entertainment options and self-medicate with alcohol or marijuana. I personally believe these are bad things, but I think the decline in religion is more a result of these issues and not the cause.

I believe some of what we are seeing as the decline is society is due to a myriad of sources. Isolationism caused by social media, widening socioeconomic disparity, political baiting and fear mongering and (closer to on our main point) an increase in selfish-centeredness all contribute to social "decline", IMO. Equating or connecting decline to any one thing while not recognizing the others paints an incomplete picture.

Overall, I agree with what you've said here (minus the need for a savior) and it's been my contention throughout this thread that those suggesting causation have more work to do in proving their point. In my personal circle, I see a lot of religious people whose behavior exacerbates our downward trajectory, not negate it. Specifically, they absorb the hate and division they're being fed by social media and cable news, internalize it as an attack on their race, culture, religion, etc. and then spread it to others in their tribes. In my opinion, this isn't about a lack of religion, but a lack of awareness of the things that are truly corrupting our society.

 

[Joe Bryant]

In my opinion, this isn't about a lack of religion, but a lack of awareness of the things that are truly corrupting our society.

Good point.

 

[Joe Bryant]

On the "Love Your Neighbor" idea, that seems pretty easy. Neighbors usually have something in common with you.

But the question always comes up is "Who is my Neighbor?"

This was the question Jesus was asked and he answered with a story of the Good Samaritan.

Luke 10:25-37 New Living Translation

The Most Important Commandment​

25 One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: “Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 Jesus replied, “What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?”

27 The man answered, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”[a]

28 “Right!” Jesus told him. “Do this and you will live!”

29 The man wanted to justify his actions, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

Parable of the Good Samaritan​

30 Jesus replied with a story: “A Jewish man was traveling from Jerusalem down to Jericho, and he was attacked by bandits. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him up, and left him half dead beside the road.

31 “By chance a priest came along. But when he saw the man lying there, he crossed to the other side of the road and passed him by. 32 A Temple assistant[b] walked over and looked at him lying there, but he also passed by on the other side.

33 “Then a despised Samaritan came along, and when he saw the man, he felt compassion for him. 34 Going over to him, the Samaritan soothed his wounds with olive oil and wine and bandaged them. Then he put the man on his own donkey and took him to an inn, where he took care of him. 35 The next day he handed the innkeeper two silver coins,[c] telling him, ‘Take care of this man. If his bill runs higher than this, I’ll pay you the next time I’m here.’

36 “Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the man who was attacked by bandits?” Jesus asked.

37 The man replied, “The one who showed him mercy.”

Then Jesus said, “Yes, now go and do the same.”

 

[Joe Bryant]

I also thought this commercial was spot on. https://youtu.be/PwExDWArh2Y?si=eVbKd8tcsDVvoVuK

Christians would be in a better spot I believe if we (obviously including me) did a better job living this out.

 

[SWC]

I also thought this commercial was spot on. https://youtu.be/PwExDWArh2Y?si=eVbKd8tcsDVvoVuK

Christians would be in a better spot I believe if we (obviously including me) did a better job living this out.

that commercial is exactly right i think the big thing that has accompanied the internet social media era and the loss of religion is the loss of a sense of shame and to be blunt i think that loss of shame has been adopted by many who proclaim hateful and cruel things in the name of the lord and i know for me personally hearing people stand for a homily and preach hate or division is a reason i have found other ways to practice my religion and to find god just my two cents take that to the bank brohans

 

[Joe Bryant]

I also thought this commercial was spot on. https://youtu.be/PwExDWArh2Y?si=eVbKd8tcsDVvoVuK

Christians would be in a better spot I believe if we (obviously including me) did a better job living this out.

that commercial is exactly right i think the big thing that has accompanied the internet social media era and the loss of religion is the loss of a sense of shame and to be blunt i think that loss of shame has been adopted by many who proclaim hateful and cruel things in the name of the lord and i know for me personally hearing people stand for a homily and preach hate or division is a reason i have found other ways to practice my religion and to find god just my two cents take that to the bank brohans

In my experience, the outright hate is pretty rare. It makes for clicks and buzz when it does happen, but I don't see much of it. What I DO see is the more discreet "look the other way" and ignore our neighbors who look/sound/think differently than us.

Interestingly, that kind of passive avoidance is exactly what Jesus called out in the story.

The two people who SHOULD have helped did not. They didn't yell or hate. They just avoided.

31 “By chance a priest came along. But when he saw the man lying there, he crossed to the other side of the road and passed him by. 32 A Temple assistant[b] walked over and looked at him lying there, but he also passed by on the other side.

I think that's the much bigger concern as it happens more easily.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thinking more on this.

I have a small group of guys I meet with weekly. It started as part of a bible study project group with the goal of learning more about how to put our faith into practice and to further friendship and fellowship with one another. The fancy church word for that is "sanctification". It means a person is supposed to become more proficient in living out one's faith.

I've been meeting with this same group for 20+ years now and I have seen with my own eyes, this process play out. And I believe I've seen it in myself. You folks see me post here - I obviously have many many many miles to go. But I have seen a clear and impactful change in myself over the years as well as a change in the guys in the group.

Of course, one could say any man should be "better" at 60 than they were at 40. That's just maturity. This is beyond that. I see improvements in emotional intelligence, in empathy, in kindness and lots of of other areas in these guys that I believe is supernatural. Again, that's not to say we have it remotely "figured" out or have "arrived". Far from it. But I've seen marked improvement and progress that is notable to me.

So if I were to switch the original question to something more like "Is living out your faith a good thing for society?", I would say in my experience, it's yes.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Thinking more on this.

I have a small group of guys I meet with weekly. It started as part of a bible study project group with the goal of learning more about how to put our faith into practice and to further friendship and fellowship with one another. The fancy church word for that is "sanctification". It means a person is supposed to become more proficient in living out one's faith.

I've been meeting with this same group for 20+ years now and I have seen with my own eyes, this process play out. And I believe I've seen it in myself. You folks see me post here - I obviously have many many many miles to go. But I have seen a clear and impactful change in myself over the years as well as a change in the guys in the group.

Of course, one could say any man should be "better" at 60 than they were at 40. That's just maturity. This is beyond that. I see improvements in emotional intelligence, in empathy, in kindness and lots of of other areas in these guys that I believe is supernatural. Again, that's not to say we have it remotely "figured" out or have "arrived". Far from it. But I've seen marked improvement and progress that is notable to me.

So if I were to switch the original question to something more like "Is living out your faith a good thing for society?", I would say in my experience, it's yes.

I haven't been a part of a group like this, but I know exactly what you mean when you talk about how trying to live out your faith has results that add up slowly over time. I definitely do not claim to be a good person, but I'm a less bad husband, father, and colleague than I was 25 years ago, and I credit that largely to religion. Aristotle argued that they way you become virtuous is to act with virtue, whether you feel like or not. Eventually your beliefs catch up with your actions, and that code of conduct gets internalized. Today, we tend to denigrate that as "fake it 'till you make it," but Aristotle wasn't stupid and I think his argument deserves better than a bad aphorism.

But I wonder how much of this sort of thing would apply to non-believers as well. Imagine a world where there is a secular version of church -- once a week, non-believers get together in a little club to talk seriously and self-critically about how to properly live one's life, and they raise their kids in that club and donate to the club and pitch in around the club in their spare time and organize some of their social activities around the club. Over the course of a few decades, that sort of practice would probably make a similar difference for them just like church does for us. I imagine that's sort of what Unitarian churches are going for, but I've never attended one of those. (Not disagreeing with you -- just trying to look at it from the POV of our secular GBs).

 

[Joe Bryant]

Thinking more on this.

I have a small group of guys I meet with weekly. It started as part of a bible study project group with the goal of learning more about how to put our faith into practice and to further friendship and fellowship with one another. The fancy church word for that is "sanctification". It means a person is supposed to become more proficient in living out one's faith.

I've been meeting with this same group for 20+ years now and I have seen with my own eyes, this process play out. And I believe I've seen it in myself. You folks see me post here - I obviously have many many many miles to go. But I have seen a clear and impactful change in myself over the years as well as a change in the guys in the group.

Of course, one could say any man should be "better" at 60 than they were at 40. That's just maturity. This is beyond that. I see improvements in emotional intelligence, in empathy, in kindness and lots of of other areas in these guys that I believe is supernatural. Again, that's not to say we have it remotely "figured" out or have "arrived". Far from it. But I've seen marked improvement and progress that is notable to me.

So if I were to switch the original question to something more like "Is living out your faith a good thing for society?", I would say in my experience, it's yes.

I haven't been a part of a group like this, but I know exactly what you mean when you talk about how trying to live out your faith has results that add up slowly over time. I definitely do not claim to be a good person, but I'm a less bad husband, father, and colleague than I was 25 years ago, and I credit that largely to religion. Aristotle argued that they way you become virtuous is to act with virtue, whether you feel like or not. Eventually your beliefs catch up with your actions, and that code of conduct gets internalized. Today, we tend to denigrate that as "fake it 'till you make it," but Aristotle wasn't stupid and I think his argument deserves better than a bad aphorism.

But I wonder how much of this sort of thing would apply to non-believers as well. Imagine a world where there is a secular version of church -- once a week, non-believers get together in a little club to talk seriously and self-critically about how to properly live one's life, and they raise their kids in that club and donate to the club and pitch in around the club in their spare time and organize some of their social activities around the club. Over the course of a few decades, that sort of practice would probably make a similar difference for them just like church does for us. I imagine that's sort of what Unitarian churches are going for, but I've never attended one of those. (Not disagreeing with you -- just trying to look at it from the POV of our secular GBs).

Thank you. It seems to me that clearly, there is a communal angle for groups with benefits outside of the faith component. I'm certain there are non faith type groups that see benefits of being together.

I was speaking more to just my own experience and what I've been able to observe.

I do think one maybe interesting point is maybe this was different for me as the expressed intent of the group was this "sanctification" or becoming better at living out our faith. Where not all groups have a clear purposeful goal like that.

 

[dgreen]

Thinking more on this.

I have a small group of guys I meet with weekly. It started as part of a bible study project group with the goal of learning more about how to put our faith into practice and to further friendship and fellowship with one another. The fancy church word for that is "sanctification". It means a person is supposed to become more proficient in living out one's faith.

I've been meeting with this same group for 20+ years now and I have seen with my own eyes, this process play out. And I believe I've seen it in myself. You folks see me post here - I obviously have many many many miles to go. But I have seen a clear and impactful change in myself over the years as well as a change in the guys in the group.

Of course, one could say any man should be "better" at 60 than they were at 40. That's just maturity. This is beyond that. I see improvements in emotional intelligence, in empathy, in kindness and lots of of other areas in these guys that I believe is supernatural. Again, that's not to say we have it remotely "figured" out or have "arrived". Far from it. But I've seen marked improvement and progress that is notable to me.

So if I were to switch the original question to something more like "Is living out your faith a good thing for society?", I would say in my experience, it's yes.

I haven't been a part of a group like this, but I know exactly what you mean when you talk about how trying to live out your faith has results that add up slowly over time. I definitely do not claim to be a good person, but I'm a less bad husband, father, and colleague than I was 25 years ago, and I credit that largely to religion. Aristotle argued that they way you become virtuous is to act with virtue, whether you feel like or not. Eventually your beliefs catch up with your actions, and that code of conduct gets internalized. Today, we tend to denigrate that as "fake it 'till you make it," but Aristotle wasn't stupid and I think his argument deserves better than a bad aphorism.

But I wonder how much of this sort of thing would apply to non-believers as well. Imagine a world where there is a secular version of church -- once a week, non-believers get together in a little club to talk seriously and self-critically about how to properly live one's life, and they raise their kids in that club and donate to the club and pitch in around the club in their spare time and organize some of their social activities around the club. Over the course of a few decades, that sort of practice would probably make a similar difference for them just like church does for us. I imagine that's sort of what Unitarian churches are going for, but I've never attended one of those. (Not disagreeing with you -- just trying to look at it from the POV of our secular GBs).

Thank you. It seems to me that clearly, there is a communal angle for groups big benefits outside of the faith component. I'm certain there are non faith type groups that see benefits of being together.

I was speaking more to just my own experience and what I've been able to observe.

I do think one maybe interesting point is maybe this was different for me as the expressed intent of the group was this "sanctification" or becoming better at living out our faith. Where not all groups have a clear purposeful goal like that.

Another difference is going to be the source used to guide that sanctification. I feel like I've had a similar growth as you've explained and it has been largely driven by a more in-depth Biblical study. I've been leading a study the last 2+ years and I get to watch others wrestling and considering things that might be different than they've been taught. I see that slow growth and potential change in attitudes toward groups X, Y, and Z.

So, I like your switch of the original poll question and I think another question could be to ask, "Is living out your religious text good for society?" I think a ton of people would argue no for the Bible (or at least large chunks of it). I'd argue yes. Not that I'm saying I could address every challenge to that claim (every "but what about this verse"), but I do move more and more towards that belief.

 

[Ilov80s]

I am not religious but at 41, I am certainly more patiet, loving, empathetic, mature, responsible, etc than I was at 35, 31, 25, etc. I don't even fully feel like the same person. I am not at all downplaying any benefit one gets from practicing their faith, community groups, etc. I do believe a large part of this is maturity with age and experience. Now it possibly does take the right mindset but I think that is even true of religious people. Some people are stuck in a rut or really against change. I wonder why that is? What is the impulse to evaluate and grow vs the impulse to resist?

As for the "supernatural", I would say that I've recently had an experience and relationship that is entirely secular but feels like a miracle. Neither of us associate it with god- not sure what to associate it with it seems undoubtedly something beyond what I considered was normally possible.

 

[Bri]

Jeff Daniels speech inserted here
Religion is the fabric of society saying

 

[Terminalxylem]

I am not religious but at 41, I am certainly more patiet, loving, empathetic, mature, responsible, etc than I was at 35, 31, 25, etc. I don't even fully feel like the same person. I am not at all downplaying any benefit one gets from practicing their faith, community groups, etc. I do believe a large part of this is maturity with age and experience. Now it possibly does take the right mindset but I think that is even true of religious people. Some people are stuck in a rut or really against change. I wonder why that is? What is the impulse to evaluate and grow vs the impulse to resist?

As for the "supernatural", I would say that I've recently had an experience and relationship that is entirely secular but feels like a miracle. Neither of us associate it with god- not sure what to associate it with it seems undoubtedly something beyond what I considered was normally possible.

Can you expound upon the second paragraph?

Over a lifetime, there have been many things I can’t explain, happen to me and others = surely this applies to everyone? But lacking faith, never once have I invoked the supernatural as an explanation. Usually, I just accept my ignorance, and move on.

 

[Ilov80s]

I am not religious but at 41, I am certainly more patiet, loving, empathetic, mature, responsible, etc than I was at 35, 31, 25, etc. I don't even fully feel like the same person. I am not at all downplaying any benefit one gets from practicing their faith, community groups, etc. I do believe a large part of this is maturity with age and experience. Now it possibly does take the right mindset but I think that is even true of religious people. Some people are stuck in a rut or really against change. I wonder why that is? What is the impulse to evaluate and grow vs the impulse to resist?

As for the "supernatural", I would say that I've recently had an experience and relationship that is entirely secular but feels like a miracle. Neither of us associate it with god- not sure what to associate it with it seems undoubtedly something beyond what I considered was normally possible.

Can you expound upon the second paragraph?

Over a lifetime, there have been many things I can’t explain, happen to me and others = surely this applies to everyone? But lacking faith, never once have I invoked the supernatural as an explanation. Usually, I just accept my ignorance, and move on.

There is a lot more info in the thread about dealing with teens but the short of it is:

I basically started talking with a 14 year old girl who was clearly in a terrible way. Her parents and most of her family had been neglectful and abusive. She had a very serious drug and alcohol problem, was harming herself and suicidal. We seemed to instantly have a connection beyond anything I can explain. Within about 5-6 months of us really just starting to talk, she stopped drinking, doing all drugs (except weed) and stopped self harm. Fast forward another 6 months and she's gone from an E/D student in drop level classes to an A/B student in Gen Ed classes. She was depressed, hated herself, saw no future, etc. Now she is happy, has new friends, loves herself, etc. I've been working with troubled teens for a long time, I've never seen or experienced anything like this. From pretty quick after we started talking, we both we very open about we both felt a miracle was happening- like the kind of thing they make a movie about and everyone finds it too good to be true. It's hard to explain but it's like I found a long lost daughter and she found her father. Her family and my family are all basically like family now. It's totally changed both our lives all within a year.