The Russia Ukraine Conflict Thread (3 Viewers)

[dschuler]

Yeah but he won't just face Europe and he knows that too.....

What countries in Western Europe collectively could stop Russia without the United States?  And using what exactly?  Their economy? What weapons?  These countries are shells of themselves from the military power they once had. Russia has more land and natural resources, a huge nuclear arsenal, better Navy to include a new class of quiet nuclear powered submarines to severely limit the effectiveness of missile defense systems, tons of ground support, and are very proficient in running military drills.  Again, I don’t think Putin would is going to attack a NATO country but in reality I don’t see how he could be stopped unless the USA is the one stopping him. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

So let’s say the US sends a few of our F35s and B1 bombers to bomb the sh!t out of a Russian positions and take out some of their jets...but denies having anything to do with it...like Putin would do. What is a Russia going to do about it? 

legit question. I’m curious. 

I think people generally know when you do BS stuff like that. The Germans staged a fake skirmish as a pretext for invading Poland, but everyone immediately just said that they invaded. Kind of like no one’s buying the crap Putin is pulling with Donbas. Fig leaves of deniability are universally ignored

 

[Nugget]

Can’t help but wonder how much of this would have happened if oil was $40 a barrel.  Between Germany dumping nuclear energy and the U.S. shutting down fossil fuels really seemed to give Russia leverage to lean on. 

When did the US shutdown fossil fuels?  US Oil production by week 1983-2022

 

[The General]

Ukraine made another pitch to be in NATO last year but Biden refused citing "government corruption."

They have been trying to get in for awhile. We didn’t let them in after Crimea. It’s awful to say as they are about to get blown to hell but the only real deferent in my mind is NATO membership or US troops there. 

I’m sure there are any number of barriers and issues that make it much more complex than simply letting them in. 

 

[massraider]

Russian actions, and Putin's statements, leave no reason to hold off on sanctions now. 

We are about to see how many politicians he really purchased. 

 

[The General]

Oh please. Give me a break. Can you put your Trump hysteria for one second?

I agree it’s not important at the moment. All this crap coming from him is useless. 

 

[jplvr]

Fair enough. The most watched news network has their entertainers talking in the same manner that Trump did.  People are openly siding with Russia moving into the country on this page so things are a bit odd at the moment, 

In any case what steps aren’t we taking that should be done?

My complaints would be with things which happened over the past year with which I've complained already. We have weak leadership. Trump was unreliable leadership, but not weak leadership. I wish we had someone who wasn't weak and also reliable. Trying to nutshell it.

 

[H Jass]

Russia doesn’t want its next door neighbor being in NATO.  And that is completely reasonable.  We should have given him that assurance.  We didn’t.

Just got done watching Carlson’s show I guess.

 Such a terrible take that’s been pretty much deconstructed all over. I’m not even blaming you or are hammering  you personally at all. I just continue  to not believe what’s become of the conservative movement and talking heads in this country that people are parroting. The party of Reagan I used to be in is as dead as the Whigs.

 

[mcintyre1]

Reports of gunfire near Boryspil Airport in Kiev, speculation that Russian special forces are attempting to seize control for landing additional forces.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

They have been trying to get in for awhile. We didn’t let them in after Crimea. It’s awful to say as they are about to get blown to hell but the only real deferent in my mind is NATO membership or US troops there. 

I’m sure there are any number of barriers and issues that make it much more complex than simply letting them in. 

I think the biggest issue is that it’s pretty hard to pledge yourself to a country’s defense when they are currently being occupied by a nuclear power. I mean, you’re basically declaring war on the first day after you admit them. Which, by the way, was probably one of Purim’s motivations for occupying Crimea in the first place

 

[mcintyre1]

Attacks so far have likely been to eliminate the best air defense systems Ukraine has in order to clear the way for conventional bombing via aircraft. Just now were unconfirmed reports of aircraft flying over Belgograd Russia, likely the follow up strikes.

 

[timschochet]

This is the equivalent of us invading Mexico because we occupied its Capitol in 1847. Manifest destiny! 

 

[massraider]

Just got done watching Carlson’s show I guess.

 Such a terrible take that’s been pretty much deconstructed all over. I’m not even blaming you or are hammering  you personally at all. I just continue  to not believe what’s become of the conservative movement and talking heads in this country that people are parroting. The party of Reagan I used to be in is as dead as the Whigs.

You know the easiest way to spot it? 

Watching people who complain about Biden get asked, repeatedly, 'what he should do different?'

They have no answer, because the news sources they go to, none of them are saying Biden needs to be tougher on Russia. 

Vague comments about weakness, but no strong statements saying we need to go hard at Putin. 

 

[jplvr]

FTR I don’t think he’s pulling for Russia either. But I also don’t think he minds if they succeed. Trump is impressed by military force. 

; agreed to a point as it embarrasses Biden, and it strokes his ego; not really sure, but I'd guess he's trying to capitalize financially, as are 99.5% of congressional members in D.C.

 

[dschuler]

Putin is going to take over Eastern Ukraine and get paid doing it.  The money he’s going to make off oil and natural gas being so high will somewhat off set the sanctions.  Shout out to Germany for shutting down nuclear power in favor of polluting the atmosphere and feeding the beast. 

 

[Guido Merkins]

What countries in Western Europe collectively could stop Russia without the United States?  And using what exactly?  Their economy? What weapons?  These countries are shells of themselves from the military power they once had. Russia has more land and natural resources, a huge nuclear arsenal, better Navy to include a new class of quiet nuclear powered submarines to severely limit the effectiveness of missile defense systems, tons of ground support, and are very proficient in running military drills.  Again, I don’t think Putin would is going to attack a NATO country but in reality I don’t see how he could be stopped unless the USA is the one stopping him. 

I mean, Germany, France, and England all have significantly larger economies than Russia individually, not to mention collectively, so that part of what you said isn't true.

But Russia ABSOLUTELY would have to face the United States in the event they step foot on a NATO country.....so he would never get to fight Europe alone.  He has to know that...

 

[Phil Elliott]

This is the equivalent of us invading Mexico because we occupied its Capitol in 1847. Manifest destiny! 

We didn't claim  Mexico into the US did we?

 

[mcintyre1]

Marco Rubio appears to be a primary source of info on the currently unfolding strategy:

https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1496689463761817600
#Russia’s airborne forces are attempting to take control of the airport in #Kyiv to they can fly in forces to occupy the capitol city

An amphibious assault on the key port city of #Mariupol is now underway

Ground forces now moving in from Belarus,Crimea & from #Russia

 

[Stoneworker]

There is a misunderstanding here about Taiwan. We are pledged to Taiwan in the same way we are pledged to NATO countries. 

You really need to stop spreading misinformation. Our relationship with Taiwan in no way is like NATO.

Under the policy of strategic ambiguity, the U.S. is obligated under the Taiwan Relations Act to assist Taiwan in maintaining a sufficient defense, but it doesn’t explicitly say whether the U.S. military would intervene in the event of an attack by China.

 

[Phil Elliott]

Marco Rubio appears to be a primary source of info on the currently unfolding strategy:

There are moles everywhere.

 

[Doug B]

So let’s say the US sends a few of our F35s and B1 bombers to bomb the sh!t out of Russian positions and take out some of their jets...but denies having anything to do with it...like Putin would do. What is a Russia going to do about it? 

legit question. I’m curious. 

I don’t think we would do that, but if we did I believe it would be considered an act of war.

Capella is right about the "act of war" part. And there is no way to deny the use of that kind hardware.

That said, The Captain is kind of touching on a way NATO might more directly support Ukraine's defense without committing ground troops. I have wondered if it would be possible for NATO forces (to wit: largely US and UK) to essentially serve as air cover and Black Sea naval support? And free Ukrainian forces to concentrate on holding ground?

 

 

[timschochet]

We didn't claim  Mexico into the US did we?

Almost. There was a debate. 

 

[The General]

Richard Engal the war correspondent on NBC or whatever his title is is an absolute madman. This dude is always in crazy places. What a wild job. 

 

[identikit]

They have no answer, because the news sources they go to, none of them are saying Biden needs to be tougher on Russia. 

Vague comments about weakness, but no strong statements saying we need to go hard at Putin. 

I don't see many of these at all.

 

[Phil Elliott]

Almost. There was a debate. 

Well I guess Russia "almost" has Ukraine.

 

[timschochet]

You really need to stop spreading misinformation. Our relationship with Taiwan in no way is like NATO.

Under the policy of strategic ambiguity, the U.S. is obligated under the Taiwan Relations Act to assist Taiwan in maintaining a sufficient defense, but it doesn’t explicitly say whether the U.S. military would intervene in the event of an attack by China.

It’s not misinformation, but I agree it’s a little more unclear. That being said, nearly every American President has pledged to go to war if Taiwan is attacked. 
I believe we are obligated to make that threat. 

 

[The General]

I think the biggest issue is that it’s pretty hard to pledge yourself to a country’s defense when they are currently being occupied by a nuclear power. I mean, you’re basically declaring war on the first day after you admit them. Which, by the way, was probably one of Purim’s motivations for occupying Crimea in the first place

This is what we could have done and said to Russia what are you going to do about it. 

If people think Biden sucks or whatever this is one of the few moves that could have been done to stop this.

Trump also could have done this. No one wold have been for that because it would have been nuts.

 

[massraider]

I don't see many of these at all.

I've been reading plenty, and posted them in here. 

The lefty media won't criticize Biden's round of sanctions. Why won't the right?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Oh please. Give me a break. Can you put your Trump hysteria for one second?

I’ve made a conscious decision since January 2021 not to spend too much time thinking about Trump, particularly the “outrage of the day” kind of stuff. But one thing that’s bothered me over the past week is how much the words of not just Trump but also Carlson, Pompeo and others are serving the needs of Russian propaganda. Now, obviously, our adversaries will always seek to heighten divisions by highlighting any criticism of our  government. But they sure are making it easy! It’s like the difference between criticizing the US involvement in Vietnam vs. Jane Fonda flying to Hanoi. Trump et al may not be on  the plane to Moscow just yet, but they at least appear to be in an Uber in their way to the airport.

 

[The General]

My complaints would be with things which happened over the past year with which I've complained already. We have weak leadership. Trump was unreliable leadership, but not weak leadership. I wish we had someone who wasn't weak and also reliable. Trying to nutshell it.

I’m not sure what is weak leadership here. What do you mean?

 

[timschochet]

Well I guess Russia "almost" has Ukraine.

Remember that Ukraine has only been an independent country for about 30 years. Historically it was always either part of the Kingdom of Poland or the Russian Empire. The reason that Ukraine has had so much trouble with corruption is because it has no experience with self government. 

 

[Doug B]

What countries in Western Europe collectively could stop Russia without the United States?  And using what exactly?

The UK and France both have their own nuclear weapons. Furthermore, both have the standing capability to launch warheads from submarines.

 

[massraider]

I’m not sure what is weak leadership here. What do you mean?

Hey man, you keep asking this question multiple ways to multiple people. You aren't going to get an answer. They don't have one. They know Biden is weak, they've been told that, but they have nothing else. 

 

[identikit]

I've been reading plenty, and posted them in here. 

The lefty media won't criticize Biden's round of sanctions. Why won't the right?

There's been a lot of this.

 

[Stoneworker]

It’s not misinformation, but I agree it’s a little more unclear. That being said, nearly every American President has pledged to go to war if Taiwan is attacked. 
I believe we are obligated to make that threat. 

Yes. It was misinformation. Plain and simple. Biden himself made the same gaffe on CNN last year and had to have Psaki walk it back before China literally went ballistic.

 

[jplvr]

Fair enough. The most watched news network has their entertainers talking in the same manner that Trump did.  People are openly siding with Russia moving into the country on this page so things are a bit odd at the moment, 

In any case what steps aren’t we taking that should be done?

I mean, in this day and age, I can't be surprised by much, but "people openly siding with Russia moving into" Ukraine would need some explanation. Where I normally hang out online, I was just arguing with remnants of the Q movement that the whole Russian build up on the border was a mini-false-flag trying to help out Biden with inflation issues.

 

[jplvr]

I’m not sure what is weak leadership here. What do you mean?

The year is 2021... how many pages was War and Peace? I'll need some time.

 

[timschochet]

Yes. It was misinformation. Plain and simple. Biden himself made the same gaffe on CNN last year and had to have Psaki walk it back before China literally went ballistic.

Well I’m not Biden. It’s not dangerous when I say it. It is when Biden says it (publicly.) Nonetheless nearly every President since 1950 has privately assured Taiwan and Japan and South Korea that we will go to war if any of them are attached. 

 

[The General]

Live at the UN…Ukrainian UN diplomat asking the Russian why this is happening right now. Asking all the UN Security Council members why this is happening. 

 

[Phil Elliott]

Remember that Ukraine has only been an independent country for about 30 years. Historically it was always either part of the Kingdom of Poland or the Russian Empire. The reason that Ukraine has had so much trouble with corruption is because it has no experience with self government. 

Show me a govt that isn't corrupt. They are an independent country being seized by Russia.

 

[mcintyre1]

Trump on Fox News claiming that this is happening "because of Biden's pullout from Afghanistan" (who ordered that again, Donald?) and the result of a "rigged election." Truly a great statesman of our times.

 

[timschochet]

A lot of the arguments that the Fox News show hosts were making up to only a few hours ago are now looking quite absurd. “They’re only going into areas controlled by the separatists, there’s no actual fighting going on, this is all a show by Biden to distract us from inflation, etc.” 

Now what are they saying? 

 

[timschochet]

Show me a govt that isn't corrupt. They are an independent country being seized by Russia.

That’s correct. I wasn’t trying to argue otherwise. 

 

[Stoneworker]

Well I’m not Biden. It’s not dangerous when I say it. It is when Biden says it (publicly.) Nonetheless nearly every President since 1950 has privately assured Taiwan and Japan and South Korea that we will go to war if any of them are attached. 

We actually had a formal agreement until about 1979 but that was dissolved to normalize relations with China.

I'm only pressing this because of its obvious importance in light of today's events. China will patiently wait for a similar oppty. We will not enter into a hot war with China over Taiwan.

 

[timschochet]

Trump on Fox News claiming that this is happening "because of Biden's pullout from Afghanistan" (who ordered that again, Donald?) and the result of a "rigged election." Truly a great statesman of our times.

But that at least means he acknowledges that it’s a bad thing. If Trump was rooting for the Russians he wouldn’t be blaming Biden. 

 

[shader]

crazy crazy stuff. Don’t think sanctioning billionaires had an effect on Putin

 

[Sammy3469]

A lot of the arguments that the Fox News show hosts were making up to only a few hours ago are now looking quite absurd. “They’re only going into areas controlled by the separatists, there’s no actual fighting going on, this is all a show by Biden to distract us from inflation, etc.” 

Now what are they saying? 

Oh they just put Trump on to spout more of his nonsense if you want to know how seriously both Fox and Trump are taking this.  

 

[Phil Elliott]

No sirens in Ukraine?

 

[timschochet]

We actually had a formal agreement until about 1979 but that was dissolved to normalize relations with China.

I'm only pressing this because of its obvious importance in light of today's events. China will patiently wait for a similar oppty. We will not enter into a hot war with China over Taiwan.

OK we disagree. IMO, the only way to PREVENT China attacking Taiwan is to threaten war with the USA. 
 

But let’s table this discussion for now, in this thread, and focus on Ukraine. I appreciate your arguments. 

 

[dschuler]

I mean, Germany, France, and England all have significantly larger economies than Russia individually, not to mention collectively, so that part of what you said isn't true.

But Russia ABSOLUTELY would have to face the United States in the event they step foot on a NATO country.....so he would never get to fight Europe alone.  He has to know that...

So they are going to tell Russia don’t takeover our land or we won’t let you buy a BMW or red wine?  I never said their Economies weren’t bigger, but that’s all they have and that only goes so far.  What in Europe besides saying USA, is stopping Russia from taking anything they want in Europe?  What is physically stopping them from taking over factories, shipping ports, really whatever they want?  You won’t let us buy certain items? That’s cute, well then we will just go take the entire factory then that makes them.  How proficient and capable do you think Poland or Hungary would be right now without the US if Russia rolled in tomorrow?   They could probably take either in a week.  There is definitely a level of military complacency in Europe through decades of peace that this whole thing exposes.    Yes obviously the US would intervene but at a huge cost, just look at how much it costs us during peace.  The budget alone is huge, not to mention the thousands of personnel who get out every year with disabilities the government has to pay for the next 60 years of their life.  The whole system needs to be looked at.