Tom Brady looking like a 6th Rd Draft Pick (2 Viewers)

[Ghost Rider]

Considering I have long been in the camp of Brady > Peyton from an all-time standpoint (although I think they are about even again now), that is quite funny. I am just playing devil's advocate here to bostonfred's over the top shtick and adding some levity to the discussion, Merlin.

 

[msudaisy26]

I think my post went completely over your head.

FYI, I was not being serious. I was merely demonstrating how easy it is to twist the facts to fit a certain narrative, like certain individuals love to do with certain players.

I apologize then, sometimes it is easy to miss the sarcasm when reading a post on the boards

It's all good.

How do you know? When has Manning not had elite weapons to throw to in his career?

The argument could be made that Manning made those players better than they would have been without him. Marvin Harrison wasn't exactly setting the league on fire before Manning came to Indy. SInce hitting his prime, Reggie Wayne didn't exactly light it up the one year he didn't have a Peyton or a Luck throwing to him. Manning hasn't had a top RB in his backfield since the pre-injury days of Edgerrin James. As has been said, Decker and Demaryius Thomas hadn't done much before Peyton came to Denver (although both showed flashes in '11).

In fact, both Brady and Manning have been excellent at making players around them better. Brady not so much this year thus far, although he is throwing to mostly rookies. But it is interesting to note that Brady is struggling mightily throwing to all new receivers so far this year, but when Peyton had to do the same thing last year - throwing to all new receivers - he lit it up pretty much from the start (with the first quarter against Atlanta being the one major hiccup).

See we will have to agree to disagree there.

Harrison was a 3rd year receiver when Peyton came in, his first 2 seasons he put up 900 yards and 9 touchdowns on average with Harabaugh as his quarterback, I think he was prime for a break out

Wayne had a great season last year without Peyton, it is a sample size because of his age and the fact he only has 2 full years without Manning, one good and one bad

Thomas and Decker both showed flashes and that is what young players do before they break out, I am pretty sure having anything resembling an NFL quarterback they both would have broke out the way they did.

I think it is the quality of receivers that let Manning put up the numbers he did from the beginning despite them being all new receivers. Brady put up monster numbers with all new receivers in 2007, but those were very good players as well

 

[Ghost Rider]

Those are all fair points.

The shtick of some aside, it really should go without saying that Peyton and Brady are two of the best quarterbacks of all-time. I'd put both in the top 5. Whatever order you want to put them in, or whomever you think is better, is always gonna be dictated by your own personal preferences and biases, of which we all have. Debating over which one is better is often a lot of fun, but it is like looking at two of the hottest girls at the Miss Universe contest: there really is no wrong answer.

 

[Anarchy99]

I am not picking sides on the Manning / Brady debate, but when was the last time Manning was throwing to 3 rookie wide receivers and a rookie tight end? The last two games, Brady's most experienced receiving options were Julian Edelman and Michaeal Hoomanawanui.

 

[msudaisy26]

And trying to compare what Manning did in next to Tebow is silly.

A QB WHO HASNT STARTED SINCE HIGH SCHOOL came into that NE offense, went 10-5 I believe and put up stats comparable to an average Brady season. So how do you justify Brady's brilliance when a nobody came in and had success in that system???

Losing five more games,

putting up 179 fewer points,

700 total fewer yards,

1200 fewer passing yards,

29 fewer TD passes,

All while playing a MUCH easier schedule.

In any other scenario people would recognize that as a SUBSTANTIAL downgrade at QB , but when it's the Patriots they try to make it sound like they are similar performances. It's laughable.

Where did they end the year? That makes them similar, not the same. 2012 Bronco's had 6 games vs playoff teams they lost 4 of them. 2011 Bronco's had 5 games against playoff teams and lost 3 of them.

2012 AFC west had a record of 26 and 38 so the Bronco's had half the wins.

2011 AFC west had a record of 31 and 33 and the Bronco's only had about 25 percent of the wins.

Those stats are nice, especially to us in the fantasy football community but the games is more then stats. It is about winning the biggest prize and Manning has come up short more times then not, sometimes it is his fault sometimes not.

 

[msudaisy26]

The reason I like Brady more is because he has shown the ability to do it many different ways. He has been the perfect game manager when his weapons weren't that great and he performed when he was asked too.

He has been the the do it all quarterback, much like Manning, calling out blitzes, changing routes, or just playing the offense coordinator.

He has put up the video game numbers when he had the talent too, and he has scaled back on the numbers when he has had to because their ground game was better, or the team didn't have a deep threat.

He has been a dink and dunk passer when he had too.

He has taken a pay cut so his team could sign better players.

He has done all of this and been one of the best quarterbacks in the league despite the team changing their identity several times.

Peyton Manning's teams have played one way and one way only since he has been in the league, despite the fact for his first 8 years it was shown you couldn't win that way.

 

[parrot]

And trying to compare what Manning did in next to Tebow is silly.

A QB WHO HASNT STARTED SINCE HIGH SCHOOL came into that NE offense, went 10-5 I believe and put up stats comparable to an average Brady season. So how do you justify Brady's brilliance when a nobody came in and had success in that system???

Losing five more games,

putting up 179 fewer points,

700 total fewer yards,

1200 fewer passing yards,

29 fewer TD passes,

All while playing a MUCH easier schedule.

In any other scenario people would recognize that as a SUBSTANTIAL downgrade at QB , but when it's the Patriots they try to make it sound like they are similar performances. It's laughable.

Where did they end the year? That makes them similar, not the same. 2012 Bronco's had 6 games vs playoff teams they lost 4 of them. 2011 Bronco's had 5 games against playoff teams and lost 3 of them.

2012 AFC west had a record of 26 and 38 so the Bronco's had half the wins.

2011 AFC west had a record of 31 and 33 and the Bronco's only had about 25 percent of the wins.

Those stats are nice, especially to us in the fantasy football community but the games is more then stats. It is about winning the biggest prize and Manning has come up short more times then not, sometimes it is his fault sometimes not.

My post was about the silly Brady/Cassel comparison. It didn't in any way pertain to Manning or the Broncos.

 

[CalBear]

I am not picking sides on the Manning / Brady debate, but when was the last time Manning was throwing to 3 rookie wide receivers and a rookie tight end? The last two games, Brady's most experienced receiving options were Julian Edelman and Michaeal Hoomanawanui.

I think the Manning/Brady debate is a waste of everyone's time, but since you asked:

2012, Manning was throwing to:

Demaryius Thomas (best previous season 32/551/4)

Erik Decker (best previous season 44/612/8)

Jacob Tamme (best previous season 67/631/4)

Brandon Stokely (at age 36, had only had one season above 650 yards or 5 TDs, back in 2004).

OK, the Pats without Amendola and Gronkowski are worse than that, but not a lot worse than that.

 

[msudaisy26]

And trying to compare what Manning did in next to Tebow is silly.

A QB WHO HASNT STARTED SINCE HIGH SCHOOL came into that NE offense, went 10-5 I believe and put up stats comparable to an average Brady season. So how do you justify Brady's brilliance when a nobody came in and had success in that system???

Losing five more games,

putting up 179 fewer points,

700 total fewer yards,

1200 fewer passing yards,

29 fewer TD passes,

All while playing a MUCH easier schedule.

In any other scenario people would recognize that as a SUBSTANTIAL downgrade at QB , but when it's the Patriots they try to make it sound like they are similar performances. It's laughable.

Where did they end the year? That makes them similar, not the same. 2012 Bronco's had 6 games vs playoff teams they lost 4 of them. 2011 Bronco's had 5 games against playoff teams and lost 3 of them.

2012 AFC west had a record of 26 and 38 so the Bronco's had half the wins.

2011 AFC west had a record of 31 and 33 and the Bronco's only had about 25 percent of the wins.

Those stats are nice, especially to us in the fantasy football community but the games is more then stats. It is about winning the biggest prize and Manning has come up short more times then not, sometimes it is his fault sometimes not.

My post was about the silly Brady/Cassel comparison. It didn't in any way pertain to Manning or the Broncos.

Sorry I was trying to do to many things at once.

 

[msudaisy26]

I am not picking sides on the Manning / Brady debate, but when was the last time Manning was throwing to 3 rookie wide receivers and a rookie tight end? The last two games, Brady's most experienced receiving options were Julian Edelman and Michaeal Hoomanawanui.

I think the Manning/Brady debate is a waste of everyone's time, but since you asked:

2012, Manning was throwing to:

Demaryius Thomas (best previous season 32/551/4)

Erik Decker (best previous season 44/612/8)

Jacob Tamme (best previous season 67/631/4)

Brandon Stokely (at age 36, had only had one season above 650 yards or 5 TDs, back in 2004).

OK, the Pats without Amendola and Gronkowski are worse than that, but not a lot worse than that.

Those stats don't tell the story at all,

Thomas had never played more than 11 games in a season, he also had Tebow throwing him the ball in his best season and the season before he was 4th on the depth chart as a rookie behind Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal and Brandon Lloyd.

Eric Decker was also a rookie that year behind those same players his next year was his best year and he had Tebow throwing him the ball.

Does playing with Manning make them better, yes. Manning didn't make these guys though they were third year receivers that had already shown promise and were getting ready to break out. You could name probably 20 other teams these guys would have started for last year and had break out seasons they had last year or close to it

 

[jurb26]

I am not picking sides on the Manning / Brady debate, but when was the last time Manning was throwing to 3 rookie wide receivers and a rookie tight end? The last two games, Brady's most experienced receiving options were Julian Edelman and Michaeal Hoomanawanui.

I think the Manning/Brady debate is a waste of everyone's time, but since you asked: 2012, Manning was throwing to: Demaryius Thomas (best previous season 32/551/4)Erik Decker (best previous season 44/612/8)Jacob Tamme (best previous season 67/631/4)Brandon Stokely (at age 36, had only had one season above 650 yards or 5 TDs, back in 2004). OK, the Pats without Amendola and Gronkowski are worse than that, but not a lot worse than that.

Those stats don't tell the story at all,Thomas had never played more than 11 games in a season, he also had Tebow throwing him the ball in his best season and the season before he was 4th on the depth chart as a rookie behind Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal and Brandon Lloyd.Eric Decker was also a rookie that year behind those same players his next year was his best year and he had Tebow throwing him the ball.Does playing with Manning make them better, yes. Manning didn't make these guys though they were third year receivers that had already shown promise and were getting ready to break out. You could name probably 20 other teams these guys would have started for last year and had break out seasons they had last year or close to it

Yeah, that was a pretty silly argument and angle to try and play. What Brady is working with now is leaps and bounds worse than anything Manning has ever had. Not remotely close at all.

 

[pizzatyme]

I am not picking sides on the Manning / Brady debate, but when was the last time Manning was throwing to 3 rookie wide receivers and a rookie tight end? The last two games, Brady's most experienced receiving options were Julian Edelman and Michaeal Hoomanawanui.

I think the Manning/Brady debate is a waste of everyone's time, but since you asked: 2012, Manning was throwing to: Demaryius Thomas (best previous season 32/551/4)Erik Decker (best previous season 44/612/8)Jacob Tamme (best previous season 67/631/4)Brandon Stokely (at age 36, had only had one season above 650 yards or 5 TDs, back in 2004). OK, the Pats without Amendola and Gronkowski are worse than that, but not a lot worse than that.

Those stats don't tell the story at all,Thomas had never played more than 11 games in a season, he also had Tebow throwing him the ball in his best season and the season before he was 4th on the depth chart as a rookie behind Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal and Brandon Lloyd.Eric Decker was also a rookie that year behind those same players his next year was his best year and he had Tebow throwing him the ball.Does playing with Manning make them better, yes. Manning didn't make these guys though they were third year receivers that had already shown promise and were getting ready to break out. You could name probably 20 other teams these guys would have started for last year and had break out seasons they had last year or close to it

Yeah, that was a pretty silly argument and angle to try and play. What Brady is working with now is leaps and bounds worse than anything Manning has ever had. Not remotely close at all.

Seems like they're good enough to be 3-0.

 

[jurb26]

I am not picking sides on the Manning / Brady debate, but when was the last time Manning was throwing to 3 rookie wide receivers and a rookie tight end? The last two games, Brady's most experienced receiving options were Julian Edelman and Michaeal Hoomanawanui.

I think the Manning/Brady debate is a waste of everyone's time, but since you asked: 2012, Manning was throwing to: Demaryius Thomas (best previous season 32/551/4)Erik Decker (best previous season 44/612/8)Jacob Tamme (best previous season 67/631/4)Brandon Stokely (at age 36, had only had one season above 650 yards or 5 TDs, back in 2004). OK, the Pats without Amendola and Gronkowski are worse than that, but not a lot worse than that.

Those stats don't tell the story at all,Thomas had never played more than 11 games in a season, he also had Tebow throwing him the ball in his best season and the season before he was 4th on the depth chart as a rookie behind Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal and Brandon Lloyd.Eric Decker was also a rookie that year behind those same players his next year was his best year and he had Tebow throwing him the ball.Does playing with Manning make them better, yes. Manning didn't make these guys though they were third year receivers that had already shown promise and were getting ready to break out. You could name probably 20 other teams these guys would have started for last year and had break out seasons they had last year or close to it

Yeah, that was a pretty silly argument and angle to try and play. What Brady is working with now is leaps and bounds worse than anything Manning has ever had. Not remotely close at all.

Seems like they're good enough to be 3-0.

A HoF QB and coach along with one of the best Olines in the NFL can hide a lot of warts.

 

[Devine Intervention]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

 

[msudaisy26]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

 

[pizzatyme]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

How many 1st Rd. WRs in the last 15 years are HOF players that didn't play with #18?

 

[msudaisy26]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

How many 1st Rd. WRs in the last 15 years are HOF players that didn't play with #18?

Randy Moss, Torry Holt,

Nice careers never played with Peyton

Santana Moss, Plaxico Burress, Javon Walker, Santonio Holmes, Dwayne Bowe

Could be hall of fame worthy with some more good years

Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Roddy White, Calvin Johnson

Jury is still out

Percy Harvin, Hakeem Nicks, Dez Bryant, A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Justin Blackmon, Micheal Floyd, Kendall Wright, Tavon Austin, Deandre Hopkins, Cordarrell Patterson

 

[Tau837]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

How many 1st Rd. WRs in the last 15 years are HOF players that didn't play with #18?

Randy Moss, Torry Holt,

Nice careers never played with Peyton

Santana Moss, Plaxico Burress, Javon Walker, Santonio Holmes, Dwayne Bowe

Could be hall of fame worthy with some more good years

Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Roddy White, Calvin Johnson

Jury is still out

Percy Harvin, Hakeem Nicks, Dez Bryant, A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Justin Blackmon, Micheal Floyd, Kendall Wright, Tavon Austin, Deandre Hopkins, Cordarrell Patterson

at suggesting Santana Moss, Plaxico Burress, Javon Walker, Santonio Holmes, and Dwayne Bowe are potentially HOF worthy. NFW.

 

[msudaisy26]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

How many 1st Rd. WRs in the last 15 years are HOF players that didn't play with #18?

Randy Moss, Torry Holt,

Nice careers never played with Peyton

Santana Moss, Plaxico Burress, Javon Walker, Santonio Holmes, Dwayne Bowe

Could be hall of fame worthy with some more good years

Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Roddy White, Calvin Johnson

Jury is still out

Percy Harvin, Hakeem Nicks, Dez Bryant, A.J. Green, Julio Jones, Justin Blackmon, Micheal Floyd, Kendall Wright, Tavon Austin, Deandre Hopkins, Cordarrell Patterson

at suggesting Santana Moss, Plaxico Burress, Javon Walker, Santonio Holmes, and Dwayne Bowe are potentially HOF worthy. NFW.

Nice troll, but I just said they had nice careers not hall of fame worth

 

[pizzatyme]

Brandon Stokely had a nice career as a Colt. Surprised he didn't mention him. LOL

 

[msudaisy26]

Brandon Stokely had a nice career as a Colt. Surprised he didn't mention him. LOL

He asked for people that didn't play with Manning, Stokely did. He wasn't a first round pick either

 

[Devine Intervention]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

Wayne was pick 30, chad Jackson was pick 36. Should Manning have credit taken away because he makes his high draft pick a success that brady couldn't? Bethel Johnson pick 45, Branch pick 65, Watson 32, Graham 21. So keep telling yourself that Manning is surrounded by sooo much better talent. He got talent just like Brady did.

While we are at it

Solder 1st

Light 2nd

Vollmer 2nd

Mankins1st

Woody 1st

Klemm 2nd

Colts

Pullak 2nd

Oguh 2nd

That's it for drafted lineman in Mannings career!!!

 

[Devine Intervention]

In Mannings 13 years as a Colt he had 12 offensive players drafted in the 1st 3 rounds

In Bradys 14 years as a Patriot he had 22 offensive players drafted in the 1st 3 rounds

Add in guys like Welker, Moss, A Smith(1st rounder), Corey Dillon

Poor Brady

 

[msudaisy26]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

Wayne was pick 30, chad Jackson was pick 36. Should Manning have credit taken away because he makes his high draft pick a success that brady couldn't? Bethel Johnson pick 45, Branch pick 65, Watson 32, Graham 21. So keep telling yourself that Manning is surrounded by sooo much better talent. He got talent just like Brady did. While we are at it

Solder 1st

Light 2nd

Vollmer 2nd

Mankins1st

Woody 1st

Klemm 2nd

Colts

Pullak 2nd

Oguh 2nd

That's it for drafted lineman in Mannings career!!!

So now he makes offensive lineman better?

Tarik Glenn 1st rounder the year before Manning got there, was with the team for 10 years

Adam Meadows 2nd rounder the year before Manning as well 6 years as the starter

Jeff Saturday not drafted 1999 full time starter in 2000 All Pro 4 times

Ryan Diem 4th round 11 years solid right tackle

80 percent of his o line was there and good for most of Manning's Colt's career if anything this gives Brady a better resume knowing they had to shuffle different guys in there all the time because people weren't cutting it. Nice try, what is next the Colts only drafted a couple receivers because they had Harrison and Wayne?

 

[Devine Intervention]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

Wayne was pick 30, chad Jackson was pick 36. Should Manning have credit taken away because he makes his high draft pick a success that brady couldn't? Bethel Johnson pick 45, Branch pick 65, Watson 32, Graham 21. So keep telling yourself that Manning is surrounded by sooo much better talent. He got talent just like Brady did. While we are at it

Solder 1st

Light 2nd

Vollmer 2nd

Mankins1st

Woody 1st

Klemm 2nd

Colts

Pullak 2nd

Oguh 2nd

That's it for drafted lineman in Mannings career!!!

So now he makes offensive lineman better?

Tarik Glenn 1st rounder the year before Manning got there, was with the team for 10 years

Adam Meadows 2nd rounder the year before Manning as well 6 years as the starter

Jeff Saturday not drafted 1999 full time starter in 2000 All Pro 4 times

Ryan Diem 4th round 11 years solid right tackle

80 percent of his o line was there and good for most of Manning's Colt's career if anything this gives Brady a better resume knowing they had to shuffle different guys in there all the time because people weren't cutting it. Nice try, what is next the Colts only drafted a couple receivers because they had Harrison and Wayne?

Youre proving my point. Yes Manning does make his line better. Are you new to football?? The QB can have an immediate effect on an offensive line. The ability to read a defense, blitz pick ups, hot reads. Go watch ESPN, that's all they talk about is Mannings pre snap reads.

Tell me the difference between Chad Jackson and Reggie Wayne?? Besides the fact that Wayne was picked 6 picks earlier

 

[Devine Intervention]

You Brady backers need to keep to one argument. First its Brady gets no talent, now its Brady had to shuffle through more early round picks and it was tough on him to not have that consistency. You all are blind and should feel silly.

 

[msudaisy26]

In Mannings 13 years as a Colt he had 12 offensive players drafted in the 1st 3 rounds

In Bradys 14 years as a Patriot he had 22 offensive players drafted in the 1st 3 rounds

Add in guys like Welker, Moss, A Smith(1st rounder), Corey Dillon

Poor Brady

LOL you leave out the parts that don't help you, I love it.

So the Colts drafted better players on offense and the Patriots drafted worse and that makes Peyton better?

Welker was no one until he got to the Patriots, Moss was renewed, Smith was awful, Corey Dillon was solid, for one year and part of another. Want to say Brady had Ochocinco, Torry Holt and Fred Jackson too?

In Manning's time

96 - 1 Harrison I won't even count the other guy since I doubt he was around long

97 - 2 others that were fixtures on his line for years Meadows and Glenn

98 - 3 offensive players not including himself

99 - 2

01 - 1

03 - 1

04 - 1

06 - 1

07 - 2

08 - 1

09 - 1

11 - 2

So that is 15 in his time there not counting himself plus guys that were there for most of his career drafted right before. Keep trying I am bored and having fun.

 

[msudaisy26]

NE tried drafting 1st round talent, it didn't pan out. In NE its a scheme fit, not a talent fit. Drafted in the top 2 rounds, guys like Chad Jackson, bethel Johnson, Maroney, Branch, Watson, Gronk, Vareen, Dobson. Not to mention how many of his O line was 1st round talent. Um, Randy Moss, Wes Welker. Its not like the guy hasn't had talent around him.

Peyton has had a borderline hall of fame receiver every year of his career. Brady didn't have one until his 7th year in the league

What you mean to say is Peyton made hall of fame wrs

Ya you are right, 1st round guys like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and D. Thomas would never amounted to anything without Peyton. Dallas Clark either.

Wayne was pick 30, chad Jackson was pick 36. Should Manning have credit taken away because he makes his high draft pick a success that brady couldn't? Bethel Johnson pick 45, Branch pick 65, Watson 32, Graham 21. So keep telling yourself that Manning is surrounded by sooo much better talent. He got talent just like Brady did. While we are at it

Solder 1st

Light 2nd

Vollmer 2nd

Mankins1st

Woody 1st

Klemm 2nd

Colts

Pullak 2nd

Oguh 2nd

That's it for drafted lineman in Mannings career!!!

So now he makes offensive lineman better?

Tarik Glenn 1st rounder the year before Manning got there, was with the team for 10 years

Adam Meadows 2nd rounder the year before Manning as well 6 years as the starter

Jeff Saturday not drafted 1999 full time starter in 2000 All Pro 4 times

Ryan Diem 4th round 11 years solid right tackle

80 percent of his o line was there and good for most of Manning's Colt's career if anything this gives Brady a better resume knowing they had to shuffle different guys in there all the time because people weren't cutting it. Nice try, what is next the Colts only drafted a couple receivers because they had Harrison and Wayne?

Youre proving my point. Yes Manning does make his line better. Are you new to football?? The QB can have an immediate effect on an offensive line. The ability to read a defense, blitz pick ups, hot reads. Go watch ESPN, that's all they talk about is Mannings pre snap reads. Tell me the difference between Chad Jackson and Reggie Wayne?? Besides the fact that Wayne was picked 6 picks earlier

Other than Wayne went to Miami that had a stable of good receivers coming out of it back when it was the churning out Pro Bowl receivers like they were making them in a lab. The fact you are randomly pulling a wide receiver taken in 2005 vs. a guy taken in 2001. Other than Percy Harvin you can't name me a decent receiver taken from Florida.

 

[msudaisy26]

You Brady backers need to keep to one argument. First its Brady gets no talent, now its Brady had to shuffle through more early round picks and it was tough on him to not have that consistency. You all are blind and should feel silly.

Please read this again, they were missing on a lot of those picks, thus he had less talent to work with. Sorry he didn't show up to a team with a Harrison already there, and Wayne a few years later. The reason they used more picks on guys is because they never found those guys. Both Wayne and Harrison had success without Manning. They would have been good no matter where they went.

 

[Devine Intervention]

So the Patriots just drafted less talented early draft picks is what your saying? So because Manning had success with his draft picks he should get less credit?

Its very easy to have 1st round draft picks at wr, that doesn't equal success. Look at the Lions. What made Harrison so successful was his connection with Manning. That's a plus towards Manning not a negative.

Oh, and if you want to use 2 years before Brady, you could add 4 more players drafted in the first 3 rounds

 

[Devine Intervention]

You Brady backers need to keep to one argument. First its Brady gets no talent, now its Brady had to shuffle through more early round picks and it was tough on him to not have that consistency. You all are blind and should feel silly.

Please read this again, they were missing on a lot of those picks, thus he had less talent to work with. Sorry he didn't show up to a team with a Harrison already there, and Wayne a few years later. The reason they used more picks on guys is because they never found those guys. Both Wayne and Harrison had success without Manning. They would have been good no matter where they went.

Exactly! Those picks didn't hit. The same way Charles Rodgers didn't hit. Its not because they weren't talented. So because Manning was able to maximize their talent and Brady couldn't youre giving Brady an out. If Jackson was soooo bad then why was he drafted so high?

 

[msudaisy26]

So the Patriots just drafted less talented early draft picks is what your saying? So because Manning had success with his draft picks he should get less credit?

Its very easy to have 1st round draft picks at wr, that doesn't equal success. Look at the Lions. What made Harrison so successful was his connection with Manning. That's a plus towards Manning not a negative.

Oh, and if you want to use 2 years before Brady, you could add 4 more players drafted in the first 3 rounds

Harrison in his first 2 years in the league without Manning averaged over 800 yards a year with 7 touchdowns he was going to break out with any decent quarterback. Reggie Wayne after Peyton left 1100 yards and 4 touchdowns.

 

[Devine Intervention]

You give Manning talent and he turns the 2 high drafted players into future HOFers. You give Brady talented WRs and they " don't hit " on them, the blame gets shed from Brady and passed down to bad luck or poor decisions from the higher ups. SMH

 

[msudaisy26]

You Brady backers need to keep to one argument. First its Brady gets no talent, now its Brady had to shuffle through more early round picks and it was tough on him to not have that consistency. You all are blind and should feel silly.

Please read this again, they were missing on a lot of those picks, thus he had less talent to work with. Sorry he didn't show up to a team with a Harrison already there, and Wayne a few years later. The reason they used more picks on guys is because they never found those guys. Both Wayne and Harrison had success without Manning. They would have been good no matter where they went.

Exactly! Those picks didn't hit. The same way Charles Rodgers didn't hit. Its not because they weren't talented. So because Manning was able to maximize their talent and Brady couldn't youre giving Brady an out. If Jackson was soooo bad then why was he drafted so high?

Because people miss that is why, some people just never get it. That isn't on Brady, and it isn't on Manning. Teams make bad draft picks lol

 

[msudaisy26]

He didn't turn Harrison or Wayne into Hall of Fame players. Those guys were going to be great players regardless.

By your logic it is Peyton's fault that Anthony Gonzalez didn't pan out and that just isn't true.

 

[Devine Intervention]

So the Patriots just drafted less talented early draft picks is what your saying? So because Manning had success with his draft picks he should get less credit?

Its very easy to have 1st round draft picks at wr, that doesn't equal success. Look at the Lions. What made Harrison so successful was his connection with Manning. That's a plus towards Manning not a negative.

Oh, and if you want to use 2 years before Brady, you could add 4 more players drafted in the first 3 rounds

Harrison in his first 2 years in the league without Manning averaged over 800 yards a year with 7 touchdowns he was going to break out with any decent quarterback. Reggie Wayne after Peyton left 1100 yards and 4 touchdowns.

Welker had 1100 yards and 3 TDs with Matt Cassel. So good point

 

[msudaisy26]

So the Patriots just drafted less talented early draft picks is what your saying? So because Manning had success with his draft picks he should get less credit?

Its very easy to have 1st round draft picks at wr, that doesn't equal success. Look at the Lions. What made Harrison so successful was his connection with Manning. That's a plus towards Manning not a negative.

Oh, and if you want to use 2 years before Brady, you could add 4 more players drafted in the first 3 rounds

Harrison in his first 2 years in the league without Manning averaged over 800 yards a year with 7 touchdowns he was going to break out with any decent quarterback. Reggie Wayne after Peyton left 1100 yards and 4 touchdowns.

Welker had 1100 yards and 3 TDs with Matt Cassel. So good point

I never said Brady didn't have talent, I said he hasn't had the talent as often as Peyton did lol

 

[bostonfred]

It's silly to act like there's no relationship between QB and WR. It's also silly to act like stats tell the whole story.

Larry Fitzgerald is arguably the most talented and hardest working receiver of his generation, but he may not make it into the HoF. When Kurt Warner was throwing to him, he was on another level, but when he had (name an Arizona QB) throwing to him, his numbers dipped further and further.

Reggie Wayne looked awesome with Manning, but then, he looks even better with Luck. That's not a case of a rookie QB being better than Peyton Manning, it's a case of the rookie QB leaning on his best veteran WR for the first half of last season, and Wayne responding well. We'll never know if Wayne would have emerged without Manning throwing to him, any more than we'll know if Manning would have put up the stats he did without a receiver of Wayne's caliber.

Wes Welker was on pace to become a good, but not special, WR. Then he joined the Patriots, and set NFL receptions records. In his first year in Denver, Manning's already raving about what a cerebral receiver he is, and how well he knows his stuff. Is that because he's a genius? Or because he had already played with an all time great QB?

What we can say, though, is that the Colts invested on offense from the moment they drafted Manning. They spent a first on Tarik Glenn, replaced Marshall Faulk with Edgerrin James, drafted Dallas Clark in the first to complement a more than capable Marcus Pollard, and after several failed attempts to find a top notch receiver to pair with Harrison, they drafted Wayne in the first, too. All those draft picks cost the Colts, as we'll see in a moment.

The Patriots, on the other hand, didn't invest on offense. In fact, in 2001, they didn't have much on offense or defense. They had a 5-11 team that had gone 0-2 to start the season, until Bledsoe got hurt, Brady took over, and suddenly they became a Superbowl team. This wasn't a particularly talented defense. They had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy, a young Bruschi, and an old Willie McGinest, but they were a borderline top 5 defense with bare cupboards on offense. Troy Brown was by far their best receiver, and despite playing with Drew Bledsoe and Tom Brady for his whole career, he wasn't even remotely considered for the HoF. Tom Brady provided them with instant offense, though, and a bad team - a team that hadn't won a game without him - went on to win the Superbowl and beat the "greatest show on turf".

In 2002, the Patriots defense struggled mightily. They went on a three game losing steak early in the season, as three of the top running backs in the NFL gashed them for big games in back to back to back weeks. Brady responded by leading the entire NFL in touchdown passes, and brought a team with a mediocre defense and very little talent on offense to a 9-7 record, but missed out on the playoffs by a tiebreaker game that was decided after the Patriots' final game of the season.

Rather than investing heavily on offense, the Patriots drafted an unheralded tweener lineman named Richard Seymour over the consensus stud receiver they were "supposed to" take. Brady instead worked with Deion Branch, and led them to two Superbowls, winning a second MVP for himself, and earning Branch the MVP in the other. Brady started out a perfect 9-0 in the postseason, the best in NFL history, while also setting NFL records for consecutive regular season wins and consecutive regular + postseason wins. Branch was later traded for a first round pick to Seattle, where he proved that it was Brady who made Branch, and not the other way around.

During the time that the Patriots were winning these championships, Manning won an MVP award, throwing to Harrison, Clark and Wayne. He would then throw four interceptions in the playoffs against Tom Brady's Patriots, losing handily. The following year, Manning won another MVP award, this time setting the (then) NFL record for touchdown passes with 49. He again returned to Foxboro in the playoffs, and led his team to just three points.

The Patriots went back to the playoffs in 2005, but lost early. Manning led the Colts to the playoffs as well, but had an early exit against the Steelers, when he threw a game ending interceptions that was incorrectly (according to the NFL) overturned by the officials, took two game ending sacks, and then miraculously got the ball back after a rare Jerome Bettis fumble, only to screw up the final drive, leading the Colts to long field goal range and bombing away for the end zone instead of setting up a makeable kick. He would go on to blame his offensive line and kicker in post game press conferences.

The Patriots came back in 2006, but after trading away Branch, they were left with Reche Caldwell as the leading receiver in a group of misfits that had no right winning anything. Still, Brady carried the offense, and led the Patriots to the AFC championship game. But that was the one year that the Colts, who had overinvested on offense, fieldded a championship caliber defense was 2006, which dragged Manning kicking and screaming through a 3 TD, 7 INT playoff run and all the way to his first and only championship ring. Brady led the Patriots to a big lead early in the AFC championship game, but when the Patriots secondary was decimated by injury and illness in the second half, Manning was finally able to find some room to throw the football, and made his first Superbowl appearance and only win.

The following year, the Patriots finally tried to bring in receivers for Brady. They brought in a talented receiver named Randy Moss, who was coming off a 42/553/3 season in Oakland, and had averaged less than 800 yards and 8 TDs a season over the last three seasons. In his first year with Tom Brady, Moss caught 98 passes for 1493 yards and an NFL record 23 touchdowns. That was Brady's first year playing with anyone close to the talent Manning had enjoyed for his entire career, and it didn't take any time for them to warm up - the Patriots went 16-0 and set NFL records for points scored, passing TDs and receiving TDs. But Moss wasn't the only new receiver Brady had to adjust to. He also had to break in Wes Welker, coming off a 67 catch, 687 yard, 1 TD performance that was a career best at that point. In their first year together - on top of the huge performance by Moss -

Welker led the NFL in receptions with 112/1175/8, almost doubling his previous career best. The Patriots would go to the Superbowl, and held a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but as we all know, there was this catch, something involving a helmet, and I don't want to ####### talk about it.

But that was just their first year together. What would they do as an encore? Unfortunately, we'll never know, as Brady was hurt in his first season back and Matt Cassel took over. We know that Welker was pretty good - his numbers dipped, especially in touchdowns, but they were almost as good as they were with Brady. But Moss dipped substantially, dropping from 98/1493/23 to 69/1008/11 as the Patriots scored 179 fewer points, with 750 fewer yards, 5 fewer wins, and missed the playoffs. Matt Cassel would go on to have a credible NFL career, leading the Chiefs to the same record in 2010 as he did the Patriots in 2008.

When Brady returned, he was definitely off, but he still won comeback player of the year with a 4398/28/13 season. Manning's 4515/34/19 was a little better in yards, substantially better in touchdowns, and substantially worse in interceptions. The Patriots looked good headed into the playoffs, but then disaster struck, as Wes Welker got hurt by Bernard Pollard, and Brady was left with little in the way of targets and had a rare early exit in the playoffs. Manning led the Colts to the Superbowl, only to throw a game ending pick six.

2010 was one of Brady's finest. The team dumped Randy Moss early in the season, but Brady still threw 36 TDs against only 4 interceptions, and set the NFL record for consecutive passes without an interception, while leading the Patriots to a 14-2 record and an NFL MVP. But, as in Manning's MVP seasons, Brady went one and done in the playoffs, losing a one score game to a Jets team that the Patriots had swept in the regular season.

In 2011, Manning missed the entire season with a neck injury that threatened his career and ended his impressive ironman streak before he could get within striking distance of Brett Favre's. Meanwhile, the Patriots had totally retooled around second year tight ends Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez. Unlike his early years, where he had a slot receiver and mediocre outside guys, or 2007 and 2009, when he had a stud outside guy and a stud slot guy, he now had a slot guy and two tight ends, with no outside receivers. In this totally different offensive system, Brady started out the season by tieing an NFL record for longest touchdown pass, passed Dan Marino's NFL record for most yards in NFL history, and took the Patriots to their fifth Superbowl appearance, once again holding a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but losing to the same Giants team that had beaten them in 2007.

In 2012, Manning joined the Broncos, and won a comeback player of the year award of his own. Both quarterbacks played well - Manning with young stud receivers, and Brady with his young stud tight ends. The Patriots won their only regular season meeting. For the eighth time in twelve postseasons, Manning would lead his team to an opening round loss in the playoffs, throwing a game ending interception in overtime against the underdog Ravens. The Patriots won their opening round match against the Texans, but lost the following week against that same Ravens team, who went on to win the Superbowl.

In 2013, Manning has led the Broncos to an impressive 3-0 start. But Brady and the Patriots have an identical 3-0 record. And while Manning has enjoyed top notch receiving talent and a handpicked team, the Patriots lost Welker (to Denver), picked up Amendola, only to have him get hurt midway through their week one game, lost Hernandez on an unexpected murder charge, let Lloyd go, lost Gronkowski to multiple injury complications that still aren't cleared up, lost Shane Vereen for ten weeks on IR, and had to play a short week against an otherwise undefeated division rival in the rain on the road. Against all odds, the two teams have the same records, but everyone's talking up Manning, and talking down Brady, as though his play has suddenly deteriorated, and not the quality of the talent around him. It's silly.

The reality is that Manning has been the more successful fantasy football quarterback, but Brady has been more successful in NFL terms. Manning has the lead in regular season MVPs, but Brady has the lead in Superbowl MVPs, has more AFC Championship game appearances, a substantially better playoff record, and obviously, more rings. Moreover, Brady - not Manning - holds the NFL record for most touchdown passes, most passes without an interception, and is second all time in single season yards, all better than Manning. Both ahve helped their receivers set NFL records, but while Harrison set the receptions record, Welker set multiple receptions records, while Moss set the touchdown record for a receiver, and Gronk set the record for tight ends. Manning has accumulated better career totals, but Brady holds the edge in the single season marks and holds an enormous edge in postseason play, where he has an incredible 17-7 record, compared with Manning's 9-11 postseason record, and where Brady has five AFC Championships and three Superbowl rings, compared with Manning's 2 and 1, respectively.

Can Manning make a case for himself as being in the same class as Brady with a record setting season this year? Maybe. It depends how much or how little you value postseason play. It would take three straight Superbowl runs for Manning to pass Brady's postseason records, and Brady already holds most of the single season records for the regular season as well. But with the massive talent surrounding Manning, and the total dearth of talent around Brady right now, how impressive is it, really, for Manning to put up bigger regular season numbers? We've seen both quarterbacks do it, but what Brady's done, leading the Patriots to a perfect 3-0 record in the face of adversity I've never seen for any quarterback in all of my years as a fan, is arguably more impressive than what Manning's done with arguably the most receiving talent of any quarterback in the NFL. Manning can certainly make a case for himself, and there will probably always be some superfans who never give up on believing that he's on the same level as Brady, but it's obvious to the serious fan that Brady's been the better quarterback since he first took over the starting job.

 

[Devine Intervention]

He didn't turn Harrison or Wayne into Hall of Fame players. Those guys were going to be great players regardless.

By your logic it is Peyton's fault that Anthony Gonzalez didn't pan out and that just isn't true.

Im pretty sure injuries were the issue with Gonzalez, otherwise he was looking good. And a qb can make or break a wr.

 

[msudaisy26]

He didn't turn Harrison or Wayne into Hall of Fame players. Those guys were going to be great players regardless.

By your logic it is Peyton's fault that Anthony Gonzalez didn't pan out and that just isn't true.

Im pretty sure injuries were the issue with Gonzalez, otherwise he was looking good. And a qb can make or break a wr.

Really, Andre Johnson has been good with a middle of the road quarterback, Fitzgerald has been good and only had Warner for a couple of years. Calvin Johnson is a beast with an average quarterback. Plaxico Burress had a hell of career with average quarterbacks, Vincent Jackson has had a good career with average at best quarterbacks. It gets kind of boring after a while

 

[msudaisy26]

He didn't turn Harrison or Wayne into Hall of Fame players. Those guys were going to be great players regardless.

By your logic it is Peyton's fault that Anthony Gonzalez didn't pan out and that just isn't true.

Im pretty sure injuries were the issue with Gonzalez, otherwise he was looking good. And a qb can make or break a wr.

and injuries aside Gonzalez didn't look good even when he was in there. He didn't have it, not Manning's fault

 

[msudaisy26]

It's silly to act like there's no relationship between QB and WR. It's also silly to act like stats tell the whole story.

Larry Fitzgerald is arguably the most talented and hardest working receiver of his generation, but he may not make it into the HoF. When Kurt Warner was throwing to him, he was on another level, but when he had (name an Arizona QB) throwing to him, his numbers dipped further and further.

Reggie Wayne looked awesome with Manning, but then, he looks even better with Luck. That's not a case of a rookie QB being better than Peyton Manning, it's a case of the rookie QB leaning on his best veteran WR for the first half of last season, and Wayne responding well. We'll never know if Wayne would have emerged without Manning throwing to him, any more than we'll know if Manning would have put up the stats he did without a receiver of Wayne's caliber.

Wes Welker was on pace to become a good, but not special, WR. Then he joined the Patriots, and set NFL receptions records. In his first year in Denver, Manning's already raving about what a cerebral receiver he is, and how well he knows his stuff. Is that because he's a genius? Or because he had already played with an all time great QB?

What we can say, though, is that the Colts invested on offense from the moment they drafted Manning. They spent a first on Tarik Glenn, replaced Marshall Faulk with Edgerrin James, drafted Dallas Clark in the first to complement a more than capable Marcus Pollard, and after several failed attempts to find a top notch receiver to pair with Harrison, they drafted Wayne in the first, too. All those draft picks cost the Colts, as we'll see in a moment.

The Patriots, on the other hand, didn't invest on offense. In fact, in 2001, they didn't have much on offense or defense. They had a 5-11 team that had gone 0-2 to start the season, until Bledsoe got hurt, Brady took over, and suddenly they became a Superbowl team. This wasn't a particularly talented defense. They had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy, a young Bruschi, and an old Willie McGinest, but they were a borderline top 5 defense with bare cupboards on offense. Troy Brown was by far their best receiver, and despite playing with Drew Bledsoe and Tom Brady for his whole career, he wasn't even remotely considered for the HoF. Tom Brady provided them with instant offense, though, and a bad team - a team that hadn't won a game without him - went on to win the Superbowl and beat the "greatest show on turf".

In 2002, the Patriots defense struggled mightily. They went on a three game losing steak early in the season, as three of the top running backs in the NFL gashed them for big games in back to back to back weeks. Brady responded by leading the entire NFL in touchdown passes, and brought a team with a mediocre defense and very little talent on offense to a 9-7 record, but missed out on the playoffs by a tiebreaker game that was decided after the Patriots' final game of the season.

Rather than investing heavily on offense, the Patriots drafted an unheralded tweener lineman named Richard Seymour over the consensus stud receiver they were "supposed to" take. Brady instead worked with Deion Branch, and led them to two Superbowls, winning a second MVP for himself, and earning Branch the MVP in the other. Brady started out a perfect 9-0 in the postseason, the best in NFL history, while also setting NFL records for consecutive regular season wins and consecutive regular + postseason wins. Branch was later traded for a first round pick to Seattle, where he proved that it was Brady who made Branch, and not the other way around.

During the time that the Patriots were winning these championships, Manning won an MVP award, throwing to Harrison, Clark and Wayne. He would then throw four interceptions in the playoffs against Tom Brady's Patriots, losing handily. The following year, Manning won another MVP award, this time setting the (then) NFL record for touchdown passes with 49. He again returned to Foxboro in the playoffs, and led his team to just three points.

The Patriots went back to the playoffs in 2005, but lost early. Manning led the Colts to the playoffs as well, but had an early exit against the Steelers, when he threw a game ending interceptions that was incorrectly (according to the NFL) overturned by the officials, took two game ending sacks, and then miraculously got the ball back after a rare Jerome Bettis fumble, only to screw up the final drive, leading the Colts to long field goal range and bombing away for the end zone instead of setting up a makeable kick. He would go on to blame his offensive line and kicker in post game press conferences.

The Patriots came back in 2006, but after trading away Branch, they were left with Reche Caldwell as the leading receiver in a group of misfits that had no right winning anything. Still, Brady carried the offense, and led the Patriots to the AFC championship game. But that was the one year that the Colts, who had overinvested on offense, fieldded a championship caliber defense was 2006, which dragged Manning kicking and screaming through a 3 TD, 7 INT playoff run and all the way to his first and only championship ring. Brady led the Patriots to a big lead early in the AFC championship game, but when the Patriots secondary was decimated by injury and illness in the second half, Manning was finally able to find some room to throw the football, and made his first Superbowl appearance and only win.

The following year, the Patriots finally tried to bring in receivers for Brady. They brought in a talented receiver named Randy Moss, who was coming off a 42/553/3 season in Oakland, and had averaged less than 800 yards and 8 TDs a season over the last three seasons. In his first year with Tom Brady, Moss caught 98 passes for 1493 yards and an NFL record 23 touchdowns. That was Brady's first year playing with anyone close to the talent Manning had enjoyed for his entire career, and it didn't take any time for them to warm up - the Patriots went 16-0 and set NFL records for points scored, passing TDs and receiving TDs. But Moss wasn't the only new receiver Brady had to adjust to. He also had to break in Wes Welker, coming off a 67 catch, 687 yard, 1 TD performance that was a career best at that point. In their first year together - on top of the huge performance by Moss -

Welker led the NFL in receptions with 112/1175/8, almost doubling his previous career best. The Patriots would go to the Superbowl, and held a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but as we all know, there was this catch, something involving a helmet, and I don't want to ####### talk about it.

But that was just their first year together. What would they do as an encore? Unfortunately, we'll never know, as Brady was hurt in his first season back and Matt Cassel took over. We know that Welker was pretty good - his numbers dipped, especially in touchdowns, but they were almost as good as they were with Brady. But Moss dipped substantially, dropping from 98/1493/23 to 69/1008/11 as the Patriots scored 179 fewer points, with 750 fewer yards, 5 fewer wins, and missed the playoffs. Matt Cassel would go on to have a credible NFL career, leading the Chiefs to the same record in 2010 as he did the Patriots in 2008.

When Brady returned, he was definitely off, but he still won comeback player of the year with a 4398/28/13 season. Manning's 4515/34/19 was a little better in yards, substantially better in touchdowns, and substantially worse in interceptions. The Patriots looked good headed into the playoffs, but then disaster struck, as Wes Welker got hurt by Bernard Pollard, and Brady was left with little in the way of targets and had a rare early exit in the playoffs. Manning led the Colts to the Superbowl, only to throw a game ending pick six.

2010 was one of Brady's finest. The team dumped Randy Moss early in the season, but Brady still threw 36 TDs against only 4 interceptions, and set the NFL record for consecutive passes without an interception, while leading the Patriots to a 14-2 record and an NFL MVP. But, as in Manning's MVP seasons, Brady went one and done in the playoffs, losing a one score game to a Jets team that the Patriots had swept in the regular season.

In 2011, Manning missed the entire season with a neck injury that threatened his career and ended his impressive ironman streak before he could get within striking distance of Brett Favre's. Meanwhile, the Patriots had totally retooled around second year tight ends Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez. Unlike his early years, where he had a slot receiver and mediocre outside guys, or 2007 and 2009, when he had a stud outside guy and a stud slot guy, he now had a slot guy and two tight ends, with no outside receivers. In this totally different offensive system, Brady started out the season by tieing an NFL record for longest touchdown pass, passed Dan Marino's NFL record for most yards in NFL history, and took the Patriots to their fifth Superbowl appearance, once again holding a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but losing to the same Giants team that had beaten them in 2007.

In 2012, Manning joined the Broncos, and won a comeback player of the year award of his own. Both quarterbacks played well - Manning with young stud receivers, and Brady with his young stud tight ends. The Patriots won their only regular season meeting. For the eighth time in twelve postseasons, Manning would lead his team to an opening round loss in the playoffs, throwing a game ending interception in overtime against the underdog Ravens. The Patriots won their opening round match against the Texans, but lost the following week against that same Ravens team, who went on to win the Superbowl.

In 2013, Manning has led the Broncos to an impressive 3-0 start. But Brady and the Patriots have an identical 3-0 record. And while Manning has enjoyed top notch receiving talent and a handpicked team, the Patriots lost Welker (to Denver), picked up Amendola, only to have him get hurt midway through their week one game, lost Hernandez on an unexpected murder charge, let Lloyd go, lost Gronkowski to multiple injury complications that still aren't cleared up, lost Shane Vereen for ten weeks on IR, and had to play a short week against an otherwise undefeated division rival in the rain on the road. Against all odds, the two teams have the same records, but everyone's talking up Manning, and talking down Brady, as though his play has suddenly deteriorated, and not the quality of the talent around him. It's silly.

The reality is that Manning has been the more successful fantasy football quarterback, but Brady has been more successful in NFL terms. Manning has the lead in regular season MVPs, but Brady has the lead in Superbowl MVPs, has more AFC Championship game appearances, a substantially better playoff record, and obviously, more rings. Moreover, Brady - not Manning - holds the NFL record for most touchdown passes, most passes without an interception, and is second all time in single season yards, all better than Manning. Both ahve helped their receivers set NFL records, but while Harrison set the receptions record, Welker set multiple receptions records, while Moss set the touchdown record for a receiver, and Gronk set the record for tight ends. Manning has accumulated better career totals, but Brady holds the edge in the single season marks and holds an enormous edge in postseason play, where he has an incredible 17-7 record, compared with Manning's 9-11 postseason record, and where Brady has five AFC Championships and three Superbowl rings, compared with Manning's 2 and 1, respectively.

Can Manning make a case for himself as being in the same class as Brady with a record setting season this year? Maybe. It depends how much or how little you value postseason play. It would take three straight Superbowl runs for Manning to pass Brady's postseason records, and Brady already holds most of the single season records for the regular season as well. But with the massive talent surrounding Manning, and the total dearth of talent around Brady right now, how impressive is it, really, for Manning to put up bigger regular season numbers? We've seen both quarterbacks do it, but what Brady's done, leading the Patriots to a perfect 3-0 record in the face of adversity I've never seen for any quarterback in all of my years as a fan, is arguably more impressive than what Manning's done with arguably the most receiving talent of any quarterback in the NFL. Manning can certainly make a case for himself, and there will probably always be some superfans who never give up on believing that he's on the same level as Brady, but it's obvious to the serious fan that Brady's been the better quarterback since he first took over the starting job.

Nice post

 

[Devine Intervention]

He didn't turn Harrison or Wayne into Hall of Fame players. Those guys were going to be great players regardless.

By your logic it is Peyton's fault that Anthony Gonzalez didn't pan out and that just isn't true.

Im pretty sure injuries were the issue with Gonzalez, otherwise he was looking good. And a qb can make or break a wr.

Really, Andre Johnson has been good with a middle of the road quarterback, Fitzgerald has been good and only had Warner for a couple of years. Calvin Johnson is a beast with an average quarterback. Plaxico Burress had a hell of career with average quarterbacks, Vincent Jackson has had a good career with average at best quarterbacks. It gets kind of boring after a while

Stafford threw for 5000 yards, maybe not a great NFL QB in the clutch but as far as getting the ball to his WRs hes pretty damn good. Schaub is sold, hes no scrub. And look at the difference of Fitz with Warner and Fitz with other QBs, and hes one of the most talented WRs to play the game ,and even his stats hurt without a QB

 

[Devine Intervention]

It's silly to act like there's no relationship between QB and WR. It's also silly to act like stats tell the whole story.

Larry Fitzgerald is arguably the most talented and hardest working receiver of his generation, but he may not make it into the HoF. When Kurt Warner was throwing to him, he was on another level, but when he had (name an Arizona QB) throwing to him, his numbers dipped further and further.

Reggie Wayne looked awesome with Manning, but then, he looks even better with Luck. That's not a case of a rookie QB being better than Peyton Manning, it's a case of the rookie QB leaning on his best veteran WR for the first half of last season, and Wayne responding well. We'll never know if Wayne would have emerged without Manning throwing to him, any more than we'll know if Manning would have put up the stats he did without a receiver of Wayne's caliber.

Wes Welker was on pace to become a good, but not special, WR. Then he joined the Patriots, and set NFL receptions records. In his first year in Denver, Manning's already raving about what a cerebral receiver he is, and how well he knows his stuff. Is that because he's a genius? Or because he had already played with an all time great QB?

What we can say, though, is that the Colts invested on offense from the moment they drafted Manning. They spent a first on Tarik Glenn, replaced Marshall Faulk with Edgerrin James, drafted Dallas Clark in the first to complement a more than capable Marcus Pollard, and after several failed attempts to find a top notch receiver to pair with Harrison, they drafted Wayne in the first, too. All those draft picks cost the Colts, as we'll see in a moment.

The Patriots, on the other hand, didn't invest on offense. In fact, in 2001, they didn't have much on offense or defense. They had a 5-11 team that had gone 0-2 to start the season, until Bledsoe got hurt, Brady took over, and suddenly they became a Superbowl team. This wasn't a particularly talented defense. They had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy, a young Bruschi, and an old Willie McGinest, but they were a borderline top 5 defense with bare cupboards on offense. Troy Brown was by far their best receiver, and despite playing with Drew Bledsoe and Tom Brady for his whole career, he wasn't even remotely considered for the HoF. Tom Brady provided them with instant offense, though, and a bad team - a team that hadn't won a game without him - went on to win the Superbowl and beat the "greatest show on turf".

In 2002, the Patriots defense struggled mightily. They went on a three game losing steak early in the season, as three of the top running backs in the NFL gashed them for big games in back to back to back weeks. Brady responded by leading the entire NFL in touchdown passes, and brought a team with a mediocre defense and very little talent on offense to a 9-7 record, but missed out on the playoffs by a tiebreaker game that was decided after the Patriots' final game of the season.

Rather than investing heavily on offense, the Patriots drafted an unheralded tweener lineman named Richard Seymour over the consensus stud receiver they were "supposed to" take. Brady instead worked with Deion Branch, and led them to two Superbowls, winning a second MVP for himself, and earning Branch the MVP in the other. Brady started out a perfect 9-0 in the postseason, the best in NFL history, while also setting NFL records for consecutive regular season wins and consecutive regular + postseason wins. Branch was later traded for a first round pick to Seattle, where he proved that it was Brady who made Branch, and not the other way around.

During the time that the Patriots were winning these championships, Manning won an MVP award, throwing to Harrison, Clark and Wayne. He would then throw four interceptions in the playoffs against Tom Brady's Patriots, losing handily. The following year, Manning won another MVP award, this time setting the (then) NFL record for touchdown passes with 49. He again returned to Foxboro in the playoffs, and led his team to just three points.

The Patriots went back to the playoffs in 2005, but lost early. Manning led the Colts to the playoffs as well, but had an early exit against the Steelers, when he threw a game ending interceptions that was incorrectly (according to the NFL) overturned by the officials, took two game ending sacks, and then miraculously got the ball back after a rare Jerome Bettis fumble, only to screw up the final drive, leading the Colts to long field goal range and bombing away for the end zone instead of setting up a makeable kick. He would go on to blame his offensive line and kicker in post game press conferences.

The Patriots came back in 2006, but after trading away Branch, they were left with Reche Caldwell as the leading receiver in a group of misfits that had no right winning anything. Still, Brady carried the offense, and led the Patriots to the AFC championship game. But that was the one year that the Colts, who had overinvested on offense, fieldded a championship caliber defense was 2006, which dragged Manning kicking and screaming through a 3 TD, 7 INT playoff run and all the way to his first and only championship ring. Brady led the Patriots to a big lead early in the AFC championship game, but when the Patriots secondary was decimated by injury and illness in the second half, Manning was finally able to find some room to throw the football, and made his first Superbowl appearance and only win.

The following year, the Patriots finally tried to bring in receivers for Brady. They brought in a talented receiver named Randy Moss, who was coming off a 42/553/3 season in Oakland, and had averaged less than 800 yards and 8 TDs a season over the last three seasons. In his first year with Tom Brady, Moss caught 98 passes for 1493 yards and an NFL record 23 touchdowns. That was Brady's first year playing with anyone close to the talent Manning had enjoyed for his entire career, and it didn't take any time for them to warm up - the Patriots went 16-0 and set NFL records for points scored, passing TDs and receiving TDs. But Moss wasn't the only new receiver Brady had to adjust to. He also had to break in Wes Welker, coming off a 67 catch, 687 yard, 1 TD performance that was a career best at that point. In their first year together - on top of the huge performance by Moss -

Welker led the NFL in receptions with 112/1175/8, almost doubling his previous career best. The Patriots would go to the Superbowl, and held a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but as we all know, there was this catch, something involving a helmet, and I don't want to ####### talk about it.

But that was just their first year together. What would they do as an encore? Unfortunately, we'll never know, as Brady was hurt in his first season back and Matt Cassel took over. We know that Welker was pretty good - his numbers dipped, especially in touchdowns, but they were almost as good as they were with Brady. But Moss dipped substantially, dropping from 98/1493/23 to 69/1008/11 as the Patriots scored 179 fewer points, with 750 fewer yards, 5 fewer wins, and missed the playoffs. Matt Cassel would go on to have a credible NFL career, leading the Chiefs to the same record in 2010 as he did the Patriots in 2008.

When Brady returned, he was definitely off, but he still won comeback player of the year with a 4398/28/13 season. Manning's 4515/34/19 was a little better in yards, substantially better in touchdowns, and substantially worse in interceptions. The Patriots looked good headed into the playoffs, but then disaster struck, as Wes Welker got hurt by Bernard Pollard, and Brady was left with little in the way of targets and had a rare early exit in the playoffs. Manning led the Colts to the Superbowl, only to throw a game ending pick six.

2010 was one of Brady's finest. The team dumped Randy Moss early in the season, but Brady still threw 36 TDs against only 4 interceptions, and set the NFL record for consecutive passes without an interception, while leading the Patriots to a 14-2 record and an NFL MVP. But, as in Manning's MVP seasons, Brady went one and done in the playoffs, losing a one score game to a Jets team that the Patriots had swept in the regular season.

In 2011, Manning missed the entire season with a neck injury that threatened his career and ended his impressive ironman streak before he could get within striking distance of Brett Favre's. Meanwhile, the Patriots had totally retooled around second year tight ends Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez. Unlike his early years, where he had a slot receiver and mediocre outside guys, or 2007 and 2009, when he had a stud outside guy and a stud slot guy, he now had a slot guy and two tight ends, with no outside receivers. In this totally different offensive system, Brady started out the season by tieing an NFL record for longest touchdown pass, passed Dan Marino's NFL record for most yards in NFL history, and took the Patriots to their fifth Superbowl appearance, once again holding a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but losing to the same Giants team that had beaten them in 2007.

In 2012, Manning joined the Broncos, and won a comeback player of the year award of his own. Both quarterbacks played well - Manning with young stud receivers, and Brady with his young stud tight ends. The Patriots won their only regular season meeting. For the eighth time in twelve postseasons, Manning would lead his team to an opening round loss in the playoffs, throwing a game ending interception in overtime against the underdog Ravens. The Patriots won their opening round match against the Texans, but lost the following week against that same Ravens team, who went on to win the Superbowl.

In 2013, Manning has led the Broncos to an impressive 3-0 start. But Brady and the Patriots have an identical 3-0 record. And while Manning has enjoyed top notch receiving talent and a handpicked team, the Patriots lost Welker (to Denver), picked up Amendola, only to have him get hurt midway through their week one game, lost Hernandez on an unexpected murder charge, let Lloyd go, lost Gronkowski to multiple injury complications that still aren't cleared up, lost Shane Vereen for ten weeks on IR, and had to play a short week against an otherwise undefeated division rival in the rain on the road. Against all odds, the two teams have the same records, but everyone's talking up Manning, and talking down Brady, as though his play has suddenly deteriorated, and not the quality of the talent around him. It's silly.

The reality is that Manning has been the more successful fantasy football quarterback, but Brady has been more successful in NFL terms. Manning has the lead in regular season MVPs, but Brady has the lead in Superbowl MVPs, has more AFC Championship game appearances, a substantially better playoff record, and obviously, more rings. Moreover, Brady - not Manning - holds the NFL record for most touchdown passes, most passes without an interception, and is second all time in single season yards, all better than Manning. Both ahve helped their receivers set NFL records, but while Harrison set the receptions record, Welker set multiple receptions records, while Moss set the touchdown record for a receiver, and Gronk set the record for tight ends. Manning has accumulated better career totals, but Brady holds the edge in the single season marks and holds an enormous edge in postseason play, where he has an incredible 17-7 record, compared with Manning's 9-11 postseason record, and where Brady has five AFC Championships and three Superbowl rings, compared with Manning's 2 and 1, respectively.

Can Manning make a case for himself as being in the same class as Brady with a record setting season this year? Maybe. It depends how much or how little you value postseason play. It would take three straight Superbowl runs for Manning to pass Brady's postseason records, and Brady already holds most of the single season records for the regular season as well. But with the massive talent surrounding Manning, and the total dearth of talent around Brady right now, how impressive is it, really, for Manning to put up bigger regular season numbers? We've seen both quarterbacks do it, but what Brady's done, leading the Patriots to a perfect 3-0 record in the face of adversity I've never seen for any quarterback in all of my years as a fan, is arguably more impressive than what Manning's done with arguably the most receiving talent of any quarterback in the NFL. Manning can certainly make a case for himself, and there will probably always be some superfans who never give up on believing that he's on the same level as Brady, but it's obvious to the serious fan that Brady's been the better quarterback since he first took over the starting job.

Nice post

You know you have the blinders on when you try given Brady credit for this season so far. Hes played against 2 rookie QBs, which are the Bills and the Jets, who are projected to be the worst teams in the NFL, a laughing stock of the league, and BARELY beat them if not for a great defensive performance picking of G Smith in the 4th. And also beating a sloppy Tampa team who has a QB who is not going to have a job for long. So if anyone is going to get credit give it to that defense.

 

[msudaisy26]

He didn't turn Harrison or Wayne into Hall of Fame players. Those guys were going to be great players regardless.

By your logic it is Peyton's fault that Anthony Gonzalez didn't pan out and that just isn't true.

Im pretty sure injuries were the issue with Gonzalez, otherwise he was looking good. And a qb can make or break a wr.

Really, Andre Johnson has been good with a middle of the road quarterback, Fitzgerald has been good and only had Warner for a couple of years. Calvin Johnson is a beast with an average quarterback. Plaxico Burress had a hell of career with average quarterbacks, Vincent Jackson has had a good career with average at best quarterbacks. It gets kind of boring after a while

Stafford threw for 5000 yards, maybe not a great NFL QB in the clutch but as far as getting the ball to his WRs hes pretty damn good. Schaub is sold, hes no scrub. And look at the difference of Fitz with Warner and Fitz with other QBs, and hes one of the most talented WRs to play the game ,and even his stats hurt without a QB

He threw for that many yards because they can't run they throw more than any other team in the NFL and it isn't close, and it is a new game now with all the new rules helping the offense. Schaub is an average quarterback at best, Fitz has had one bad year ever, with or without Warner his stats are the same minus last year and his rookie year

 

[msudaisy26]

It's silly to act like there's no relationship between QB and WR. It's also silly to act like stats tell the whole story.

Larry Fitzgerald is arguably the most talented and hardest working receiver of his generation, but he may not make it into the HoF. When Kurt Warner was throwing to him, he was on another level, but when he had (name an Arizona QB) throwing to him, his numbers dipped further and further.

Reggie Wayne looked awesome with Manning, but then, he looks even better with Luck. That's not a case of a rookie QB being better than Peyton Manning, it's a case of the rookie QB leaning on his best veteran WR for the first half of last season, and Wayne responding well. We'll never know if Wayne would have emerged without Manning throwing to him, any more than we'll know if Manning would have put up the stats he did without a receiver of Wayne's caliber.

Wes Welker was on pace to become a good, but not special, WR. Then he joined the Patriots, and set NFL receptions records. In his first year in Denver, Manning's already raving about what a cerebral receiver he is, and how well he knows his stuff. Is that because he's a genius? Or because he had already played with an all time great QB?

What we can say, though, is that the Colts invested on offense from the moment they drafted Manning. They spent a first on Tarik Glenn, replaced Marshall Faulk with Edgerrin James, drafted Dallas Clark in the first to complement a more than capable Marcus Pollard, and after several failed attempts to find a top notch receiver to pair with Harrison, they drafted Wayne in the first, too. All those draft picks cost the Colts, as we'll see in a moment.

The Patriots, on the other hand, didn't invest on offense. In fact, in 2001, they didn't have much on offense or defense. They had a 5-11 team that had gone 0-2 to start the season, until Bledsoe got hurt, Brady took over, and suddenly they became a Superbowl team. This wasn't a particularly talented defense. They had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy, a young Bruschi, and an old Willie McGinest, but they were a borderline top 5 defense with bare cupboards on offense. Troy Brown was by far their best receiver, and despite playing with Drew Bledsoe and Tom Brady for his whole career, he wasn't even remotely considered for the HoF. Tom Brady provided them with instant offense, though, and a bad team - a team that hadn't won a game without him - went on to win the Superbowl and beat the "greatest show on turf".

In 2002, the Patriots defense struggled mightily. They went on a three game losing steak early in the season, as three of the top running backs in the NFL gashed them for big games in back to back to back weeks. Brady responded by leading the entire NFL in touchdown passes, and brought a team with a mediocre defense and very little talent on offense to a 9-7 record, but missed out on the playoffs by a tiebreaker game that was decided after the Patriots' final game of the season.

Rather than investing heavily on offense, the Patriots drafted an unheralded tweener lineman named Richard Seymour over the consensus stud receiver they were "supposed to" take. Brady instead worked with Deion Branch, and led them to two Superbowls, winning a second MVP for himself, and earning Branch the MVP in the other. Brady started out a perfect 9-0 in the postseason, the best in NFL history, while also setting NFL records for consecutive regular season wins and consecutive regular + postseason wins. Branch was later traded for a first round pick to Seattle, where he proved that it was Brady who made Branch, and not the other way around.

During the time that the Patriots were winning these championships, Manning won an MVP award, throwing to Harrison, Clark and Wayne. He would then throw four interceptions in the playoffs against Tom Brady's Patriots, losing handily. The following year, Manning won another MVP award, this time setting the (then) NFL record for touchdown passes with 49. He again returned to Foxboro in the playoffs, and led his team to just three points.

The Patriots went back to the playoffs in 2005, but lost early. Manning led the Colts to the playoffs as well, but had an early exit against the Steelers, when he threw a game ending interceptions that was incorrectly (according to the NFL) overturned by the officials, took two game ending sacks, and then miraculously got the ball back after a rare Jerome Bettis fumble, only to screw up the final drive, leading the Colts to long field goal range and bombing away for the end zone instead of setting up a makeable kick. He would go on to blame his offensive line and kicker in post game press conferences.

The Patriots came back in 2006, but after trading away Branch, they were left with Reche Caldwell as the leading receiver in a group of misfits that had no right winning anything. Still, Brady carried the offense, and led the Patriots to the AFC championship game. But that was the one year that the Colts, who had overinvested on offense, fieldded a championship caliber defense was 2006, which dragged Manning kicking and screaming through a 3 TD, 7 INT playoff run and all the way to his first and only championship ring. Brady led the Patriots to a big lead early in the AFC championship game, but when the Patriots secondary was decimated by injury and illness in the second half, Manning was finally able to find some room to throw the football, and made his first Superbowl appearance and only win.

The following year, the Patriots finally tried to bring in receivers for Brady. They brought in a talented receiver named Randy Moss, who was coming off a 42/553/3 season in Oakland, and had averaged less than 800 yards and 8 TDs a season over the last three seasons. In his first year with Tom Brady, Moss caught 98 passes for 1493 yards and an NFL record 23 touchdowns. That was Brady's first year playing with anyone close to the talent Manning had enjoyed for his entire career, and it didn't take any time for them to warm up - the Patriots went 16-0 and set NFL records for points scored, passing TDs and receiving TDs. But Moss wasn't the only new receiver Brady had to adjust to. He also had to break in Wes Welker, coming off a 67 catch, 687 yard, 1 TD performance that was a career best at that point. In their first year together - on top of the huge performance by Moss -

Welker led the NFL in receptions with 112/1175/8, almost doubling his previous career best. The Patriots would go to the Superbowl, and held a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but as we all know, there was this catch, something involving a helmet, and I don't want to ####### talk about it.

But that was just their first year together. What would they do as an encore? Unfortunately, we'll never know, as Brady was hurt in his first season back and Matt Cassel took over. We know that Welker was pretty good - his numbers dipped, especially in touchdowns, but they were almost as good as they were with Brady. But Moss dipped substantially, dropping from 98/1493/23 to 69/1008/11 as the Patriots scored 179 fewer points, with 750 fewer yards, 5 fewer wins, and missed the playoffs. Matt Cassel would go on to have a credible NFL career, leading the Chiefs to the same record in 2010 as he did the Patriots in 2008.

When Brady returned, he was definitely off, but he still won comeback player of the year with a 4398/28/13 season. Manning's 4515/34/19 was a little better in yards, substantially better in touchdowns, and substantially worse in interceptions. The Patriots looked good headed into the playoffs, but then disaster struck, as Wes Welker got hurt by Bernard Pollard, and Brady was left with little in the way of targets and had a rare early exit in the playoffs. Manning led the Colts to the Superbowl, only to throw a game ending pick six.

2010 was one of Brady's finest. The team dumped Randy Moss early in the season, but Brady still threw 36 TDs against only 4 interceptions, and set the NFL record for consecutive passes without an interception, while leading the Patriots to a 14-2 record and an NFL MVP. But, as in Manning's MVP seasons, Brady went one and done in the playoffs, losing a one score game to a Jets team that the Patriots had swept in the regular season.

In 2011, Manning missed the entire season with a neck injury that threatened his career and ended his impressive ironman streak before he could get within striking distance of Brett Favre's. Meanwhile, the Patriots had totally retooled around second year tight ends Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez. Unlike his early years, where he had a slot receiver and mediocre outside guys, or 2007 and 2009, when he had a stud outside guy and a stud slot guy, he now had a slot guy and two tight ends, with no outside receivers. In this totally different offensive system, Brady started out the season by tieing an NFL record for longest touchdown pass, passed Dan Marino's NFL record for most yards in NFL history, and took the Patriots to their fifth Superbowl appearance, once again holding a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but losing to the same Giants team that had beaten them in 2007.

In 2012, Manning joined the Broncos, and won a comeback player of the year award of his own. Both quarterbacks played well - Manning with young stud receivers, and Brady with his young stud tight ends. The Patriots won their only regular season meeting. For the eighth time in twelve postseasons, Manning would lead his team to an opening round loss in the playoffs, throwing a game ending interception in overtime against the underdog Ravens. The Patriots won their opening round match against the Texans, but lost the following week against that same Ravens team, who went on to win the Superbowl.

In 2013, Manning has led the Broncos to an impressive 3-0 start. But Brady and the Patriots have an identical 3-0 record. And while Manning has enjoyed top notch receiving talent and a handpicked team, the Patriots lost Welker (to Denver), picked up Amendola, only to have him get hurt midway through their week one game, lost Hernandez on an unexpected murder charge, let Lloyd go, lost Gronkowski to multiple injury complications that still aren't cleared up, lost Shane Vereen for ten weeks on IR, and had to play a short week against an otherwise undefeated division rival in the rain on the road. Against all odds, the two teams have the same records, but everyone's talking up Manning, and talking down Brady, as though his play has suddenly deteriorated, and not the quality of the talent around him. It's silly.

The reality is that Manning has been the more successful fantasy football quarterback, but Brady has been more successful in NFL terms. Manning has the lead in regular season MVPs, but Brady has the lead in Superbowl MVPs, has more AFC Championship game appearances, a substantially better playoff record, and obviously, more rings. Moreover, Brady - not Manning - holds the NFL record for most touchdown passes, most passes without an interception, and is second all time in single season yards, all better than Manning. Both ahve helped their receivers set NFL records, but while Harrison set the receptions record, Welker set multiple receptions records, while Moss set the touchdown record for a receiver, and Gronk set the record for tight ends. Manning has accumulated better career totals, but Brady holds the edge in the single season marks and holds an enormous edge in postseason play, where he has an incredible 17-7 record, compared with Manning's 9-11 postseason record, and where Brady has five AFC Championships and three Superbowl rings, compared with Manning's 2 and 1, respectively.

Can Manning make a case for himself as being in the same class as Brady with a record setting season this year? Maybe. It depends how much or how little you value postseason play. It would take three straight Superbowl runs for Manning to pass Brady's postseason records, and Brady already holds most of the single season records for the regular season as well. But with the massive talent surrounding Manning, and the total dearth of talent around Brady right now, how impressive is it, really, for Manning to put up bigger regular season numbers? We've seen both quarterbacks do it, but what Brady's done, leading the Patriots to a perfect 3-0 record in the face of adversity I've never seen for any quarterback in all of my years as a fan, is arguably more impressive than what Manning's done with arguably the most receiving talent of any quarterback in the NFL. Manning can certainly make a case for himself, and there will probably always be some superfans who never give up on believing that he's on the same level as Brady, but it's obvious to the serious fan that Brady's been the better quarterback since he first took over the starting job.

Nice post

You know you have the blinders on when you try given Brady credit for this season so far. Hes played against 2 rookie QBs, which are the Bills and the Jets, who are projected to be the worst teams in the NFL, a laughing stock of the league, and BARELY beat them if not for a great defensive performance picking of G Smith in the 4th. And also beating a sloppy Tampa team who has a QB who is not going to have a job for long. So if anyone is going to get credit give it to that defense.

No one predicted that, the worst teams in the league were Jacksonville and the Raiders by far in early season predictions. Which are just predictions, no one knows what is going to happen until the games are played

 

[Devine Intervention]

It's silly to act like there's no relationship between QB and WR. It's also silly to act like stats tell the whole story.

Larry Fitzgerald is arguably the most talented and hardest working receiver of his generation, but he may not make it into the HoF. When Kurt Warner was throwing to him, he was on another level, but when he had (name an Arizona QB) throwing to him, his numbers dipped further and further.

Reggie Wayne looked awesome with Manning, but then, he looks even better with Luck. That's not a case of a rookie QB being better than Peyton Manning, it's a case of the rookie QB leaning on his best veteran WR for the first half of last season, and Wayne responding well. We'll never know if Wayne would have emerged without Manning throwing to him, any more than we'll know if Manning would have put up the stats he did without a receiver of Wayne's caliber.

Wes Welker was on pace to become a good, but not special, WR. Then he joined the Patriots, and set NFL receptions records. In his first year in Denver, Manning's already raving about what a cerebral receiver he is, and how well he knows his stuff. Is that because he's a genius? Or because he had already played with an all time great QB?

What we can say, though, is that the Colts invested on offense from the moment they drafted Manning. They spent a first on Tarik Glenn, replaced Marshall Faulk with Edgerrin James, drafted Dallas Clark in the first to complement a more than capable Marcus Pollard, and after several failed attempts to find a top notch receiver to pair with Harrison, they drafted Wayne in the first, too. All those draft picks cost the Colts, as we'll see in a moment.

The Patriots, on the other hand, didn't invest on offense. In fact, in 2001, they didn't have much on offense or defense. They had a 5-11 team that had gone 0-2 to start the season, until Bledsoe got hurt, Brady took over, and suddenly they became a Superbowl team. This wasn't a particularly talented defense. They had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy, a young Bruschi, and an old Willie McGinest, but they were a borderline top 5 defense with bare cupboards on offense. Troy Brown was by far their best receiver, and despite playing with Drew Bledsoe and Tom Brady for his whole career, he wasn't even remotely considered for the HoF. Tom Brady provided them with instant offense, though, and a bad team - a team that hadn't won a game without him - went on to win the Superbowl and beat the "greatest show on turf".

In 2002, the Patriots defense struggled mightily. They went on a three game losing steak early in the season, as three of the top running backs in the NFL gashed them for big games in back to back to back weeks. Brady responded by leading the entire NFL in touchdown passes, and brought a team with a mediocre defense and very little talent on offense to a 9-7 record, but missed out on the playoffs by a tiebreaker game that was decided after the Patriots' final game of the season.

Rather than investing heavily on offense, the Patriots drafted an unheralded tweener lineman named Richard Seymour over the consensus stud receiver they were "supposed to" take. Brady instead worked with Deion Branch, and led them to two Superbowls, winning a second MVP for himself, and earning Branch the MVP in the other. Brady started out a perfect 9-0 in the postseason, the best in NFL history, while also setting NFL records for consecutive regular season wins and consecutive regular + postseason wins. Branch was later traded for a first round pick to Seattle, where he proved that it was Brady who made Branch, and not the other way around.

During the time that the Patriots were winning these championships, Manning won an MVP award, throwing to Harrison, Clark and Wayne. He would then throw four interceptions in the playoffs against Tom Brady's Patriots, losing handily. The following year, Manning won another MVP award, this time setting the (then) NFL record for touchdown passes with 49. He again returned to Foxboro in the playoffs, and led his team to just three points.

The Patriots went back to the playoffs in 2005, but lost early. Manning led the Colts to the playoffs as well, but had an early exit against the Steelers, when he threw a game ending interceptions that was incorrectly (according to the NFL) overturned by the officials, took two game ending sacks, and then miraculously got the ball back after a rare Jerome Bettis fumble, only to screw up the final drive, leading the Colts to long field goal range and bombing away for the end zone instead of setting up a makeable kick. He would go on to blame his offensive line and kicker in post game press conferences.

The Patriots came back in 2006, but after trading away Branch, they were left with Reche Caldwell as the leading receiver in a group of misfits that had no right winning anything. Still, Brady carried the offense, and led the Patriots to the AFC championship game. But that was the one year that the Colts, who had overinvested on offense, fieldded a championship caliber defense was 2006, which dragged Manning kicking and screaming through a 3 TD, 7 INT playoff run and all the way to his first and only championship ring. Brady led the Patriots to a big lead early in the AFC championship game, but when the Patriots secondary was decimated by injury and illness in the second half, Manning was finally able to find some room to throw the football, and made his first Superbowl appearance and only win.

The following year, the Patriots finally tried to bring in receivers for Brady. They brought in a talented receiver named Randy Moss, who was coming off a 42/553/3 season in Oakland, and had averaged less than 800 yards and 8 TDs a season over the last three seasons. In his first year with Tom Brady, Moss caught 98 passes for 1493 yards and an NFL record 23 touchdowns. That was Brady's first year playing with anyone close to the talent Manning had enjoyed for his entire career, and it didn't take any time for them to warm up - the Patriots went 16-0 and set NFL records for points scored, passing TDs and receiving TDs. But Moss wasn't the only new receiver Brady had to adjust to. He also had to break in Wes Welker, coming off a 67 catch, 687 yard, 1 TD performance that was a career best at that point. In their first year together - on top of the huge performance by Moss -

Welker led the NFL in receptions with 112/1175/8, almost doubling his previous career best. The Patriots would go to the Superbowl, and held a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but as we all know, there was this catch, something involving a helmet, and I don't want to ####### talk about it.

But that was just their first year together. What would they do as an encore? Unfortunately, we'll never know, as Brady was hurt in his first season back and Matt Cassel took over. We know that Welker was pretty good - his numbers dipped, especially in touchdowns, but they were almost as good as they were with Brady. But Moss dipped substantially, dropping from 98/1493/23 to 69/1008/11 as the Patriots scored 179 fewer points, with 750 fewer yards, 5 fewer wins, and missed the playoffs. Matt Cassel would go on to have a credible NFL career, leading the Chiefs to the same record in 2010 as he did the Patriots in 2008.

When Brady returned, he was definitely off, but he still won comeback player of the year with a 4398/28/13 season. Manning's 4515/34/19 was a little better in yards, substantially better in touchdowns, and substantially worse in interceptions. The Patriots looked good headed into the playoffs, but then disaster struck, as Wes Welker got hurt by Bernard Pollard, and Brady was left with little in the way of targets and had a rare early exit in the playoffs. Manning led the Colts to the Superbowl, only to throw a game ending pick six.

2010 was one of Brady's finest. The team dumped Randy Moss early in the season, but Brady still threw 36 TDs against only 4 interceptions, and set the NFL record for consecutive passes without an interception, while leading the Patriots to a 14-2 record and an NFL MVP. But, as in Manning's MVP seasons, Brady went one and done in the playoffs, losing a one score game to a Jets team that the Patriots had swept in the regular season.

In 2011, Manning missed the entire season with a neck injury that threatened his career and ended his impressive ironman streak before he could get within striking distance of Brett Favre's. Meanwhile, the Patriots had totally retooled around second year tight ends Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez. Unlike his early years, where he had a slot receiver and mediocre outside guys, or 2007 and 2009, when he had a stud outside guy and a stud slot guy, he now had a slot guy and two tight ends, with no outside receivers. In this totally different offensive system, Brady started out the season by tieing an NFL record for longest touchdown pass, passed Dan Marino's NFL record for most yards in NFL history, and took the Patriots to their fifth Superbowl appearance, once again holding a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but losing to the same Giants team that had beaten them in 2007.

In 2012, Manning joined the Broncos, and won a comeback player of the year award of his own. Both quarterbacks played well - Manning with young stud receivers, and Brady with his young stud tight ends. The Patriots won their only regular season meeting. For the eighth time in twelve postseasons, Manning would lead his team to an opening round loss in the playoffs, throwing a game ending interception in overtime against the underdog Ravens. The Patriots won their opening round match against the Texans, but lost the following week against that same Ravens team, who went on to win the Superbowl.

In 2013, Manning has led the Broncos to an impressive 3-0 start. But Brady and the Patriots have an identical 3-0 record. And while Manning has enjoyed top notch receiving talent and a handpicked team, the Patriots lost Welker (to Denver), picked up Amendola, only to have him get hurt midway through their week one game, lost Hernandez on an unexpected murder charge, let Lloyd go, lost Gronkowski to multiple injury complications that still aren't cleared up, lost Shane Vereen for ten weeks on IR, and had to play a short week against an otherwise undefeated division rival in the rain on the road. Against all odds, the two teams have the same records, but everyone's talking up Manning, and talking down Brady, as though his play has suddenly deteriorated, and not the quality of the talent around him. It's silly.

The reality is that Manning has been the more successful fantasy football quarterback, but Brady has been more successful in NFL terms. Manning has the lead in regular season MVPs, but Brady has the lead in Superbowl MVPs, has more AFC Championship game appearances, a substantially better playoff record, and obviously, more rings. Moreover, Brady - not Manning - holds the NFL record for most touchdown passes, most passes without an interception, and is second all time in single season yards, all better than Manning. Both ahve helped their receivers set NFL records, but while Harrison set the receptions record, Welker set multiple receptions records, while Moss set the touchdown record for a receiver, and Gronk set the record for tight ends. Manning has accumulated better career totals, but Brady holds the edge in the single season marks and holds an enormous edge in postseason play, where he has an incredible 17-7 record, compared with Manning's 9-11 postseason record, and where Brady has five AFC Championships and three Superbowl rings, compared with Manning's 2 and 1, respectively.

Can Manning make a case for himself as being in the same class as Brady with a record setting season this year? Maybe. It depends how much or how little you value postseason play. It would take three straight Superbowl runs for Manning to pass Brady's postseason records, and Brady already holds most of the single season records for the regular season as well. But with the massive talent surrounding Manning, and the total dearth of talent around Brady right now, how impressive is it, really, for Manning to put up bigger regular season numbers? We've seen both quarterbacks do it, but what Brady's done, leading the Patriots to a perfect 3-0 record in the face of adversity I've never seen for any quarterback in all of my years as a fan, is arguably more impressive than what Manning's done with arguably the most receiving talent of any quarterback in the NFL. Manning can certainly make a case for himself, and there will probably always be some superfans who never give up on believing that he's on the same level as Brady, but it's obvious to the serious fan that Brady's been the better quarterback since he first took over the starting job.

Nice post

You know you have the blinders on when you try given Brady credit for this season so far. Hes played against 2 rookie QBs, which are the Bills and the Jets, who are projected to be the worst teams in the NFL, a laughing stock of the league, and BARELY beat them if not for a great defensive performance picking of G Smith in the 4th. And also beating a sloppy Tampa team who has a QB who is not going to have a job for long. So if anyone is going to get credit give it to that defense.

No one predicted that, the worst teams in the league were Jacksonville and the Raiders by far in early season predictions. Which are just predictions, no one knows what is going to happen until the games are played

keep telling yourself the Jets and Bills, hell the Buccs too are even average teams. That way you can feel better about Bradys poor performance.

I heard Brady played bad on purpose to inspire and motivate his team to push through diversity.

I heard Brady was calling plays for the defense that led to key stops in the 4th quarter.

I heard Brady was distracted during the game because he was busy finding ways to cure cancer on the side lines.

 

[msudaisy26]

It's silly to act like there's no relationship between QB and WR. It's also silly to act like stats tell the whole story.

Larry Fitzgerald is arguably the most talented and hardest working receiver of his generation, but he may not make it into the HoF. When Kurt Warner was throwing to him, he was on another level, but when he had (name an Arizona QB) throwing to him, his numbers dipped further and further.

Reggie Wayne looked awesome with Manning, but then, he looks even better with Luck. That's not a case of a rookie QB being better than Peyton Manning, it's a case of the rookie QB leaning on his best veteran WR for the first half of last season, and Wayne responding well. We'll never know if Wayne would have emerged without Manning throwing to him, any more than we'll know if Manning would have put up the stats he did without a receiver of Wayne's caliber.

Wes Welker was on pace to become a good, but not special, WR. Then he joined the Patriots, and set NFL receptions records. In his first year in Denver, Manning's already raving about what a cerebral receiver he is, and how well he knows his stuff. Is that because he's a genius? Or because he had already played with an all time great QB?

What we can say, though, is that the Colts invested on offense from the moment they drafted Manning. They spent a first on Tarik Glenn, replaced Marshall Faulk with Edgerrin James, drafted Dallas Clark in the first to complement a more than capable Marcus Pollard, and after several failed attempts to find a top notch receiver to pair with Harrison, they drafted Wayne in the first, too. All those draft picks cost the Colts, as we'll see in a moment.

The Patriots, on the other hand, didn't invest on offense. In fact, in 2001, they didn't have much on offense or defense. They had a 5-11 team that had gone 0-2 to start the season, until Bledsoe got hurt, Brady took over, and suddenly they became a Superbowl team. This wasn't a particularly talented defense. They had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy, a young Bruschi, and an old Willie McGinest, but they were a borderline top 5 defense with bare cupboards on offense. Troy Brown was by far their best receiver, and despite playing with Drew Bledsoe and Tom Brady for his whole career, he wasn't even remotely considered for the HoF. Tom Brady provided them with instant offense, though, and a bad team - a team that hadn't won a game without him - went on to win the Superbowl and beat the "greatest show on turf".

In 2002, the Patriots defense struggled mightily. They went on a three game losing steak early in the season, as three of the top running backs in the NFL gashed them for big games in back to back to back weeks. Brady responded by leading the entire NFL in touchdown passes, and brought a team with a mediocre defense and very little talent on offense to a 9-7 record, but missed out on the playoffs by a tiebreaker game that was decided after the Patriots' final game of the season.

Rather than investing heavily on offense, the Patriots drafted an unheralded tweener lineman named Richard Seymour over the consensus stud receiver they were "supposed to" take. Brady instead worked with Deion Branch, and led them to two Superbowls, winning a second MVP for himself, and earning Branch the MVP in the other. Brady started out a perfect 9-0 in the postseason, the best in NFL history, while also setting NFL records for consecutive regular season wins and consecutive regular + postseason wins. Branch was later traded for a first round pick to Seattle, where he proved that it was Brady who made Branch, and not the other way around.

During the time that the Patriots were winning these championships, Manning won an MVP award, throwing to Harrison, Clark and Wayne. He would then throw four interceptions in the playoffs against Tom Brady's Patriots, losing handily. The following year, Manning won another MVP award, this time setting the (then) NFL record for touchdown passes with 49. He again returned to Foxboro in the playoffs, and led his team to just three points.

The Patriots went back to the playoffs in 2005, but lost early. Manning led the Colts to the playoffs as well, but had an early exit against the Steelers, when he threw a game ending interceptions that was incorrectly (according to the NFL) overturned by the officials, took two game ending sacks, and then miraculously got the ball back after a rare Jerome Bettis fumble, only to screw up the final drive, leading the Colts to long field goal range and bombing away for the end zone instead of setting up a makeable kick. He would go on to blame his offensive line and kicker in post game press conferences.

The Patriots came back in 2006, but after trading away Branch, they were left with Reche Caldwell as the leading receiver in a group of misfits that had no right winning anything. Still, Brady carried the offense, and led the Patriots to the AFC championship game. But that was the one year that the Colts, who had overinvested on offense, fieldded a championship caliber defense was 2006, which dragged Manning kicking and screaming through a 3 TD, 7 INT playoff run and all the way to his first and only championship ring. Brady led the Patriots to a big lead early in the AFC championship game, but when the Patriots secondary was decimated by injury and illness in the second half, Manning was finally able to find some room to throw the football, and made his first Superbowl appearance and only win.

The following year, the Patriots finally tried to bring in receivers for Brady. They brought in a talented receiver named Randy Moss, who was coming off a 42/553/3 season in Oakland, and had averaged less than 800 yards and 8 TDs a season over the last three seasons. In his first year with Tom Brady, Moss caught 98 passes for 1493 yards and an NFL record 23 touchdowns. That was Brady's first year playing with anyone close to the talent Manning had enjoyed for his entire career, and it didn't take any time for them to warm up - the Patriots went 16-0 and set NFL records for points scored, passing TDs and receiving TDs. But Moss wasn't the only new receiver Brady had to adjust to. He also had to break in Wes Welker, coming off a 67 catch, 687 yard, 1 TD performance that was a career best at that point. In their first year together - on top of the huge performance by Moss -

Welker led the NFL in receptions with 112/1175/8, almost doubling his previous career best. The Patriots would go to the Superbowl, and held a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but as we all know, there was this catch, something involving a helmet, and I don't want to ####### talk about it.

But that was just their first year together. What would they do as an encore? Unfortunately, we'll never know, as Brady was hurt in his first season back and Matt Cassel took over. We know that Welker was pretty good - his numbers dipped, especially in touchdowns, but they were almost as good as they were with Brady. But Moss dipped substantially, dropping from 98/1493/23 to 69/1008/11 as the Patriots scored 179 fewer points, with 750 fewer yards, 5 fewer wins, and missed the playoffs. Matt Cassel would go on to have a credible NFL career, leading the Chiefs to the same record in 2010 as he did the Patriots in 2008.

When Brady returned, he was definitely off, but he still won comeback player of the year with a 4398/28/13 season. Manning's 4515/34/19 was a little better in yards, substantially better in touchdowns, and substantially worse in interceptions. The Patriots looked good headed into the playoffs, but then disaster struck, as Wes Welker got hurt by Bernard Pollard, and Brady was left with little in the way of targets and had a rare early exit in the playoffs. Manning led the Colts to the Superbowl, only to throw a game ending pick six.

2010 was one of Brady's finest. The team dumped Randy Moss early in the season, but Brady still threw 36 TDs against only 4 interceptions, and set the NFL record for consecutive passes without an interception, while leading the Patriots to a 14-2 record and an NFL MVP. But, as in Manning's MVP seasons, Brady went one and done in the playoffs, losing a one score game to a Jets team that the Patriots had swept in the regular season.

In 2011, Manning missed the entire season with a neck injury that threatened his career and ended his impressive ironman streak before he could get within striking distance of Brett Favre's. Meanwhile, the Patriots had totally retooled around second year tight ends Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez. Unlike his early years, where he had a slot receiver and mediocre outside guys, or 2007 and 2009, when he had a stud outside guy and a stud slot guy, he now had a slot guy and two tight ends, with no outside receivers. In this totally different offensive system, Brady started out the season by tieing an NFL record for longest touchdown pass, passed Dan Marino's NFL record for most yards in NFL history, and took the Patriots to their fifth Superbowl appearance, once again holding a lead with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, but losing to the same Giants team that had beaten them in 2007.

In 2012, Manning joined the Broncos, and won a comeback player of the year award of his own. Both quarterbacks played well - Manning with young stud receivers, and Brady with his young stud tight ends. The Patriots won their only regular season meeting. For the eighth time in twelve postseasons, Manning would lead his team to an opening round loss in the playoffs, throwing a game ending interception in overtime against the underdog Ravens. The Patriots won their opening round match against the Texans, but lost the following week against that same Ravens team, who went on to win the Superbowl.

In 2013, Manning has led the Broncos to an impressive 3-0 start. But Brady and the Patriots have an identical 3-0 record. And while Manning has enjoyed top notch receiving talent and a handpicked team, the Patriots lost Welker (to Denver), picked up Amendola, only to have him get hurt midway through their week one game, lost Hernandez on an unexpected murder charge, let Lloyd go, lost Gronkowski to multiple injury complications that still aren't cleared up, lost Shane Vereen for ten weeks on IR, and had to play a short week against an otherwise undefeated division rival in the rain on the road. Against all odds, the two teams have the same records, but everyone's talking up Manning, and talking down Brady, as though his play has suddenly deteriorated, and not the quality of the talent around him. It's silly.

The reality is that Manning has been the more successful fantasy football quarterback, but Brady has been more successful in NFL terms. Manning has the lead in regular season MVPs, but Brady has the lead in Superbowl MVPs, has more AFC Championship game appearances, a substantially better playoff record, and obviously, more rings. Moreover, Brady - not Manning - holds the NFL record for most touchdown passes, most passes without an interception, and is second all time in single season yards, all better than Manning. Both ahve helped their receivers set NFL records, but while Harrison set the receptions record, Welker set multiple receptions records, while Moss set the touchdown record for a receiver, and Gronk set the record for tight ends. Manning has accumulated better career totals, but Brady holds the edge in the single season marks and holds an enormous edge in postseason play, where he has an incredible 17-7 record, compared with Manning's 9-11 postseason record, and where Brady has five AFC Championships and three Superbowl rings, compared with Manning's 2 and 1, respectively.

Can Manning make a case for himself as being in the same class as Brady with a record setting season this year? Maybe. It depends how much or how little you value postseason play. It would take three straight Superbowl runs for Manning to pass Brady's postseason records, and Brady already holds most of the single season records for the regular season as well. But with the massive talent surrounding Manning, and the total dearth of talent around Brady right now, how impressive is it, really, for Manning to put up bigger regular season numbers? We've seen both quarterbacks do it, but what Brady's done, leading the Patriots to a perfect 3-0 record in the face of adversity I've never seen for any quarterback in all of my years as a fan, is arguably more impressive than what Manning's done with arguably the most receiving talent of any quarterback in the NFL. Manning can certainly make a case for himself, and there will probably always be some superfans who never give up on believing that he's on the same level as Brady, but it's obvious to the serious fan that Brady's been the better quarterback since he first took over the starting job.

Nice post

You know you have the blinders on when you try given Brady credit for this season so far. Hes played against 2 rookie QBs, which are the Bills and the Jets, who are projected to be the worst teams in the NFL, a laughing stock of the league, and BARELY beat them if not for a great defensive performance picking of G Smith in the 4th. And also beating a sloppy Tampa team who has a QB who is not going to have a job for long. So if anyone is going to get credit give it to that defense.

No one predicted that, the worst teams in the league were Jacksonville and the Raiders by far in early season predictions. Which are just predictions, no one knows what is going to happen until the games are played

keep telling yourself the Jets and Bills, hell the Buccs too are even average teams. That way you can feel better about Bradys poor performance. I heard Brady played bad on purpose to inspire and motivate his team to push through diversity.

I heard Brady was calling plays for the defense that led to key stops in the 4th quarter.

I heard Brady was distracted during the game because he was busy finding ways to cure cancer on the side lines.

No one said average, you are getting mad and now just making stuff up.

Plus we already know that the only thing that cures cancer is Chuck Norris's tears and he never cries, until he owned David Wilson on his fantasy team. Then he gave Wilson the tears in a jar with no lid and then Wilson fumbled the jar and we lost the cure for cancer, all because of David Wilson.

 

[Devine Intervention]

One last fun fact.

Brady career average

254 yards per game

30 TDs 11 INTs on average per year.

12-4 average record

Cassell as a starter on NE

230 per game

21 TDs 11 INTs

10-5

Manning career average

267 yards per game

31 TDs 14 INTs on average per year

11-5 average record

Painter and company

201 yards per game

2-14

14 TDs 14 INTs

 

[msudaisy26]

One last fun fact.

Brady career average

254 yards per game

30 TDs 11 INTs on average per year.

12-4 average record

Cassell as a starter on NE

230 per game

21 TDs 11 INTs

10-5

Manning career average

267 yards per game

31 TDs 14 INTs on average per year

11-5 average record

Painter and company

201 yards per game

2-14

14 TDs 14 INTs

So Painter and company weren't as good as Cassell. We all knew that. Thanks for the update