Was this date rape? (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

I would bet the guy's version would be a bit different and would probably include things she left out.

Obviously it would. I can not imagine him not having a different version. However, it doesn't change the version of the story that has him pinning a girl down to have sex with him.

What if she had her hands all over his junk?

 

[naomi]

The way everything evolved just gives me the impression he's done this before, good judge of people but uses it to get off in a twisted way.

 

[Bucky86]

I would bet the guy's version would be a bit different and would probably include things she left out.

Obviously it would. I can not imagine him not having a different version. However, it doesn't change the version of the story that has him pinning a girl down to have sex with him.

What if she had her hands all over his junk?

What if he moved her hands to his junk?

 

[jon_mx]

I would bet the guy's version would be a bit different and would probably include things she left out.

Obviously it would. I can not imagine him not having a different version. However, it doesn't change the version of the story that has him pinning a girl down to have sex with him.

What if she had her hands all over his junk?

What if he moved her hands to his junk?

What if she had a penis?

 

[timschochet]

Ivan what is your point? That he said "to push him away" instead of "pushing him away"? What difference is it?

I posted earlier that based on what PG has said, the girl consented to sex all the way through being carried into the bedroom and (apparently) getting undressed. When people people have pointed this out to him, he's gotten irrationally upset about it, and that's served to derail the discussion.

He's right that when she pushes the guy away, consent has been revoked and the guy should have recognized as much. That said, Otis also has a good point that since she's already consented once, the girl really has an obligation to say "no" unambiguously when she changes her mind. In other words, while I do think this is most likely date rape, the victim did a lot to contribute to the situation, but PG seems incredibly defensive on that point.

i think this is a really reasonable argument and worth discussing. I'm not sure though that the girl has any kind of obligation to verbalize her no.

 

[Otis]

Ivan what is your point? That he said "to push him away" instead of "pushing him away"? What difference is it?

I posted earlier that based on what PG has said, the girl consented to sex all the way through being carried into the bedroom and (apparently) getting undressed. When people people have pointed this out to him, he's gotten irrationally upset about it, and that's served to derail the discussion.

He's right that when she pushes the guy away, consent has been revoked and the guy should have recognized as much. That said, Otis also has a good point that since she's already consented once, the girl really has an obligation to say "no" unambiguously when she changes her mind. In other words, while I do think this is most likely date rape, the victim did a lot to contribute to the situation, but PG seems incredibly defensive on that point.

i think this is a really reasonable argument and worth discussing. I'm not sure though that the girl has any kind of obligation to verbalize her no.

She has an obligation, given her continued consent and the situation she helped create up to that point, to clearly communicate her change of heart. It's not so clear she did that.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Ivan what is your point? That he said "to push him away" instead of "pushing him away"? What difference is it?

I posted earlier that based on what PG has said, the girl consented to sex all the way through being carried into the bedroom and (apparently) getting undressed. When people people have pointed this out to him, he's gotten irrationally upset about it, and that's served to derail the discussion.

He's right that when she pushes the guy away, consent has been revoked and the guy should have recognized as much. That said, Otis also has a good point that since she's already consented once, the girl really has an obligation to say "no" unambiguously when she changes her mind. In other words, while I do think this is most likely date rape, the victim did a lot to contribute to the situation, but PG seems incredibly defensive on that point.

i think this is a really reasonable argument and worth discussing. I'm not sure though that the girl has any kind of obligation to verbalize her no.

It's been discussed for 11 pages. As has the issue of whether or not she's obligated to "verbalize" anything (the answer is no, of course she is not). But it does seem like she's obligated to make her sudden change of heart apparent to the guy she just got naked with. Whether or not she did that entirely depends on the interpretation of the OP's second hand retelling of the "pushing" and "pinning" part, which is why this has reached 11 pages in the first place.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'm just going to stop posting the exact thing Otis says, seeeeee ya.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Why are you idiots still talking about him carrying her? SHE TRIED TO PUSH HIM AWAY AND HE PINNED HER ARMS DOWN.

Virtually everyone had said if she tried to push him away in manner that made it clear she was resisting it would be rape. The hang-up for some seems to be did she really try to push him away or just put her hand on his chest with the intent of pushing him away.

The sad thing is that if this had been a case that went to trial it would likely end up being one of those he said, she said points. She says she tried to push him away, he says she didn't or he didn't notice. Both of them end up having their personal lives dragged out in court and the guy potentially ends up jail. As it is the girl has been carrying this around for years, and who knows how it affected her life?

Couple of things.

1) I started off in this thread that the nature of the "putting hands on chest to push him away" and the pinning of the arms is the only thing that would create a grey area for me and depending on the nature of these acts, I could totally see it being rape. Way too much time has been spent in this thread IMO discussing the fact that she said no downstairs, or that she didn't feel comfortable saying no, or about the guy should've made sure to get consent again, etc. All of this means nothing if she pushed/tried to push him in such a way that made it obvious to the guy she didn't want to go through with it, and he did it anyway by overpowering her. If that's the case, totally 100% rape. That's the problem with this whole discussion, we're breaking down specific words for used by a person who's relaying a story from the actual victim. Depending on the wording she used, or the OP used, the characterization of the pushing/pinning may changed.

To me, as others have said, her actions seem rather ambiguous as described. Given that and the fact that she never said no (for whatever reason), I just can't take the leap that this guy would've/should've known that what she was expressing was a last second changing of her mind.

But again, totally depends on the nature of the pushing/pinning, which is getting pretty pedantic I guess, but this is a nuanced, unclear situation IMO.

2) I forget what #2 was. I think it may have been that I don't think there's anyway in hell he'd actually be convicted of rape, but that's not exactly the question in the OP.

The only thing I'd point out about "the push," and why read in total I feel the OP is a little more clear than some others, if the push wasn't enough to get his attention why does the guy feel the need to then smash her arms and keep them pinned? I think there's only a couple ways to read that:

1) he knows she's going to resist and doesn't care - obviously rape

2) it's a choice for the kind of sex to have, aggressive and "rough" in the girl's words and as others have commented on here

At a bare minimum, #2 is a really dicey choice. Not to have sex that way, which is fine as long as you are sure both parties want it. I know some posters have said it's up to the girl to make it clear she didn't want it, but that's just not how it necessarily works. You don't know how women are going to react, especially one you don't know all that well. When you start using force of any kind you bring fear into the mix and can actually create a scenario where even if she says yes verbally, you'd be at risk for a rape accusation.

I've been reading this thread mainly from the perspective of how I'd want to advise my son on consent, and I think this guy is pretty good case study in what not to do if you don't want to end up with a rape accusation.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Wait, dudes still go around banging chicks without written consent forms?

Gotta get it writing.

Lawyerguys....does the font size on the anal clause matter?

I already posted something along this line and got told it wasn't funny.

Its all about the timing and the delivery.

 

[tdoss]

I haven't read since my last response so forgive if this has been covered...

So, she said it wouldn't be a good idea "right now"...

He takes a shot and decides to carry her upstairs...did she resist?

He undresses her...did she resist?

He undresses...did she leave the room?

I've skimmed a lot of this...did this guy actually take time to put on a condom? He fished one out of drawer, opened it...put it on...and she did what? Froze in fear because she's a tiny little thing and couldn't possibly say "No" without obviously incurring this savage's wrath?

I get what most are saying...and yes, she has the right to refuse at any point...but placing her hands on him with the intent to push him away is not a very clear message.

I'm just saying that we're getting this after it's been filtered and skewed a bit...and even with this description...there's no way I could convict...not even a debate for me.

 

[Bucky86]

I haven't read since my last response so forgive if this has been covered...

So, she said it wouldn't be a good idea "right now"...

He takes a shot and decides to carry her upstairs...did she resist?

He undresses her...did she resist?

He undresses...did she leave the room?

I've skimmed a lot of this...did this guy actually take time to put on a condom? He fished one out of drawer, opened it...put it on...and she did what? Froze in fear because she's a tiny little thing and couldn't possibly say "No" without obviously incurring this savage's wrath?

I get what most are saying...and yes, she has the right to refuse at any point...but placing her hands on him with the intent to push him away is not a very clear message.

I'm just saying that we're getting this after it's been filtered and skewed a bit...and even with this description...there's no way I could convict...not even a debate for me.

I'd also like to know if he said anything to her before, during, and after sex?

 

[AAABatteries]

But I have NEVER had a girl try to push me away, and then pinned her body down, and then forced myself into her. I've never done that because that would be rape.

I'm glad I bowed out of this when I did - this isn't how it was worded originally. The OP has changed wording several times it appears.

 

[seahawk 17]

I don't know why I care, but I read this post to several woman, and they advised not rape. Every single one of them said that in the scenario described, the guy was being assertive...which you acknowledged that you like...and at any point(clothes coming off, him getting on the bed.) she could of said stop, or I don't want to do this.

 

[SIDA!]

Papa G

If you care to, I for one, am willing to grant you a mulligan on the description of the events that transpired and would like to here a more thorough accounting of how it all went down. I think it is fair to say that you have been a little less than precise in your wording.

The crux of the issue for me and I think many of those who have made similar points is that we are truly unclear as to what exactly she did with respect to the alleged pushing back/arms pinned aspects of this episode. A couple others have asked about whether a condom was used, etc.

I am of the opinion that were you to provide a more thorough explanation of the events that transpired that you would probably get a consensus opinion from the board. Barring any further elaboration on your part, I am pretty much tapping out on this thread. I know that you have expressed some offense at some of our comments, but I think the conversation has for the most part been fairly constructive and argued in good faith by all.

Regardless, it has definitely given me food for thought and definitely given me some points to remember when I speak to my boys in the future about sex, consent, etc.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I may not have as extensive an experiential history as some here, so I ask. Has any guy here ever kept a woman's arms pinned between her chest and his for the entirety of an event. I mean I understand being chest to chest for a time. I can imagine her arms being momentarily caught, but through the entire act? I understand face to face, but chest pressed to chest, that's not a particularly desirable arrangement.

 

[SIDA!]

I don't know why I care, but I read this post to several woman, and they advised not rape. Every single one of them said that in the scenario described, the guy was being assertive...which you acknowledged that you like...and at any point(clothes coming off, him getting on the bed.) she could of said stop, or I don't want to do this.

I spoke to my girlfriend about this and had her read it to get her response. She definitely did not feel comfortable calling it rape though was not ruling it out. She believed that unless a woman says "no" or aggressively pushes/kicks/squirms/screams, she has a hard time calling it rape. She did provide some interesting viewpoints on the subject that I thought I would throw out there.

She said that women in general have a hard time saying "no" and will often couch it in softer sentence structure or words so as not to be so direct or insensitive. She said that it is quite possible that her saying "I don't think that is a good idea" was really her saying "No". She went on to say that women grow up having a hard time saying "No" to a man when it comes to sex because as young girls we want to make the guy we are with happy. She said that she believes most young women have their first sexual encounters not because they want to have sex but because they like a boy and want to keep him around and not lose him. As women grow up and into adults, we still associate saying "No" to sexual advances as creating a situation where the guy will basically leave.

Thus, women are raised to be non combative/non confrontational and thus couch negative opinions or feelings in softer, less direct language. And further, believe that since guy are so hardwired for sex that their failure to give in to those desires may create a situation where the guy moves on. She said there were times she found herself in a physically intimate environment where she realized that she didn't want to be in that situation or in that position, but she allowed it to progress to that point for a variety of reasons discussed above.

EDIT TO ADD: She meant saying "No" in general to many things. Not just sexual encounters.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I have quoted my original post several times and despite using more descriptive words the story has not changed.

I have never said she didn't send mixed signals.

This girl is not crying rape to anyone. She has told a total of 2 people in her life and it happened over 5 years ago. Please stop trying to make it sound like this is about her justifying what happened or that she is trying to hurt his reputation or whatever is being implied by some of you. I am the one that thinks it sounds like rape and thought she might be in denial. You want to attack me for that then fine.

It seems the above along with people saying I can't handle different opinions from my own seem to be a point of issue despite my many attempts to correct it. I won't waste my time any further trying to prove that these ideas are not accurate.

Not sure why people can't in vision a situation in which during the time he takes to get undressed and the time it takes to find and put on a condom that the girl has had sufficient time to cool off and come to her senses.

Which leads us to the sticking point for the "is rape" and "isn't rape" crowd. I understand she allowed many things to take place and some of you use that to justify what happens later but the simple fact that she tried to raise up from the bed and gets pushed back down, then pinned with her arms trapped between them takes all of it off the table, He is using force to get what he wants. Now moved ahead a year and most seem to ignore this, they have another meeting, yes I know this opens her up to more scrutiny which is fine but again due to his actions I think the guy shows what he is about. They are in a public setting and he grabs her against her will, and begins to hug her. Now please forgive me because I will use a little more detail than in the OP so feel free to say that must mean I am trying to convince people to believe my way but she most certainly told me this. Her arms are again pinned only this time at her sides. She tries to get lose and he holds on. It isn't until she begins to struggle that he lets go. I think he only lets go because he realizes he is in a public setting. Please tell me how many of you have gotten into rough, hot, steamy hugs. Did she consent to that because she got out of her vehicle or is the guy creepy AF?

I believe both sides could very well be right on many aspects of this but regardless of her duty to object in a way that some of you might find acceptable this guy uses force in sexual situations and no way any of you would want a female loved one around this guy.

 

[SIDA!]

Okay. There is really nothing left for me to add here.

 

[cstu]

I have quoted my original post several times and despite using more descriptive words the story has not changed.

I have never said she didn't send mixed signals.

This girl is not crying rape to anyone. She has told a total of 2 people in her life and it happened over 5 years ago. Please stop trying to make it sound like this is about her justifying what happened or that she is trying to hurt his reputation or whatever is being implied by some of you. I am the one that thinks it sounds like rape and thought she might be in denial. You want to attack me for that then fine.

It seems the above along with people saying I can't handle different opinions from my own seem to be a point of issue despite my many attempts to correct it. I won't waste my time any further trying to prove that these ideas are not accurate.

Not sure why people can't in vision a situation in which during the time he takes to get undressed and the time it takes to find and put on a condom that the girl has had sufficient time to cool off and come to her senses.

Which leads us to the sticking point for the "is rape" and "isn't rape" crowd. I understand she allowed many things to take place and some of you use that to justify what happens later but the simple fact that she tried to raise up from the bed and gets pushed back down, then pinned with her arms trapped between them takes all of it off the table, He is using force to get what he wants. Now moved ahead a year and most seem to ignore this, they have another meeting, yes I know this opens her up to more scrutiny which is fine but again due to his actions I think the guy shows what he is about. They are in a public setting and he grabs her against her will, and begins to hug her. Now please forgive me because I will use a little more detail than in the OP so feel free to say that must mean I am trying to convince people to believe my way but she most certainly told me this. Her arms are again pinned only this time at her sides. She tries to get lose and he holds on. It isn't until she begins to struggle that he lets go. I think he only lets go because he realizes he is in a public setting. Please tell me how many of you have gotten into rough, hot, steamy hugs. Did she consent to that because she got out of her vehicle or is the guy creepy AF?

I believe both sides could very well be right on many aspects of this but regardless of her duty to object in a way that some of you might find acceptable this guy uses force in sexual situations and no way any of you would want a female loved one around this guy.

Dude is a creep, I think that's perfectly clear.

Did she ever tell you WHY she called him and wanted to meet him? I find that very strange for something who claims to have had a terrible (even if not rape) experience with someone.

Also, did she tell you how she acted during sex? She says her arms were pinned down, but was she struggling to get away or laying there waiting for him to finish?

 

[cstu]

I may not have as extensive an experiential history as some here, so I ask. Has any guy here ever kept a woman's arms pinned between her chest and his for the entirety of an event. I mean I understand being chest to chest for a time. I can imagine her arms being momentarily caught, but through the entire act? I understand face to face, but chest pressed to chest, that's not a particularly desirable arrangement.

I have a hard time picturing the exact situation described.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Papa G

If you care to, I for one, am willing to grant you a mulligan on the description of the events that transpired and would like to here a more thorough accounting of how it all went down. I think it is fair to say that you have been a little less than precise in your wording.

The crux of the issue for me and I think many of those who have made similar points is that we are truly unclear as to what exactly she did with respect to the alleged pushing back/arms pinned aspects of this episode. A couple others have asked about whether a condom was used, etc.

I am of the opinion that were you to provide a more thorough explanation of the events that transpired that you would probably get a consensus opinion from the board. Barring any further elaboration on your part, I am pretty much tapping out on this thread. I know that you have expressed some offense at some of our comments, but I think the conversation has for the most part been fairly constructive and argued in good faith by all.

Regardless, it has definitely given me food for thought and definitely given me some points to remember when I speak to my boys in the future about sex, consent, etc.

I appreciate it and honestly most people eventually tried to reword things I found to be offensive. I know I am too close to the fire to be totally objective here. I have not in anyway tried to deceive anyone consciously. I have tried to explain that I became more descriptive later because my typical writing style it to try and be efficient and to the point, later I was trying to paint a picture of the events.

I might talk to her again tomorrow about this at which time I will update and maybe clear some things up.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I might talk to her again tomorrow about this at which time I will update and maybe clear some things up.

Why?

Serious question.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Papa G

If you care to, I for one, am willing to grant you a mulligan on the description of the events that transpired and would like to here a more thorough accounting of how it all went down. I think it is fair to say that you have been a little less than precise in your wording.

The crux of the issue for me and I think many of those who have made similar points is that we are truly unclear as to what exactly she did with respect to the alleged pushing back/arms pinned aspects of this episode. A couple others have asked about whether a condom was used, etc.

I am of the opinion that were you to provide a more thorough explanation of the events that transpired that you would probably get a consensus opinion from the board. Barring any further elaboration on your part, I am pretty much tapping out on this thread. I know that you have expressed some offense at some of our comments, but I think the conversation has for the most part been fairly constructive and argued in good faith by all.

Regardless, it has definitely given me food for thought and definitely given me some points to remember when I speak to my boys in the future about sex, consent, etc.

I appreciate it and honestly most people eventually tried to reword things I found to be offensive. I know I am too close to the fire to be totally objective here. I have not in anyway tried to deceive anyone consciously. I have tried to explain that I became more descriptive later because my typical writing style it to try and be efficient and to the point, later I was trying to paint a picture of the events.

I might talk to her again tomorrow about this at which time I will update and maybe clear some things up.

Don't talk to her on our account.

If she raises the subject again be a supportive listener, but raising it, I just can't see that.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I might talk to her again tomorrow about this at which time I will update and maybe clear some things up.

Why?

Serious question.

Some have suggested that she was reaching out to me and others have said that if she is in denial that maybe I should discuss this with her and see about her getting help. I will probably only say something like, "if you ever need to talk to me more about the other day I am here."

 

[dparker713]

I may not have as extensive an experiential history as some here, so I ask. Has any guy here ever kept a woman's arms pinned between her chest and his for the entirety of an event. I mean I understand being chest to chest for a time. I can imagine her arms being momentarily caught, but through the entire act? I understand face to face, but chest pressed to chest, that's not a particularly desirable arrangement.

Well, we've no idea the length of the encounter. Sounds like these are fairly young people, the intercourse could have been rather quick.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I might talk to her again tomorrow about this at which time I will update and maybe clear some things up.

Why?

Serious question.

Some have suggested that she was reaching out to me and others have said that if she is in denial that maybe I should discuss this with her and see about her getting help. I will probably only say something like, "if you ever need to talk to me more about the other day I am here."

Okay. Saying that sounds like a good idea. It initially sounded like you were going to broach the topic again for the purposes of further information gathering, which seems like an awful idea.

 

[dparker713]

Papa G

If you care to, I for one, am willing to grant you a mulligan on the description of the events that transpired and would like to here a more thorough accounting of how it all went down. I think it is fair to say that you have been a little less than precise in your wording.

The crux of the issue for me and I think many of those who have made similar points is that we are truly unclear as to what exactly she did with respect to the alleged pushing back/arms pinned aspects of this episode. A couple others have asked about whether a condom was used, etc.

I am of the opinion that were you to provide a more thorough explanation of the events that transpired that you would probably get a consensus opinion from the board. Barring any further elaboration on your part, I am pretty much tapping out on this thread. I know that you have expressed some offense at some of our comments, but I think the conversation has for the most part been fairly constructive and argued in good faith by all.

Regardless, it has definitely given me food for thought and definitely given me some points to remember when I speak to my boys in the future about sex, consent, etc.

I appreciate it and honestly most people eventually tried to reword things I found to be offensive. I know I am too close to the fire to be totally objective here. I have not in anyway tried to deceive anyone consciously. I have tried to explain that I became more descriptive later because my typical writing style it to try and be efficient and to the point, later I was trying to paint a picture of the events.

I might talk to her again tomorrow about this at which time I will update and maybe clear some things up.

I've been as curious to the specifics as anyone else, and I think I can speak for everyone that you should in no way talk to her about this to help our understanding of the situation. If you feel you can help her feel better or be there for her in some way, that's your call. But we're entirely insignificant to the entire situation.

 

[Christo]

I don't know why I care, but I read this post to several woman, and they advised not rape. Every single one of them said that in the scenario described, the guy was being assertive...which you acknowledged that you like...and at any point(clothes coming off, him getting on the bed.) she could of said stop, or I don't want to do this.

I spoke to my girlfriend about this and had her read it to get her response. She definitely did not feel comfortable calling it rape though was not ruling it out. She believed that unless a woman says "no" or aggressively pushes/kicks/squirms/screams, she has a hard time calling it rape. She did provide some interesting viewpoints on the subject that I thought I would throw out there.

She said that women in general have a hard time saying "no" and will often couch it in softer sentence structure or words so as not to be so direct or insensitive. She said that it is quite possible that her saying "I don't think that is a good idea" was really her saying "No". She went on to say that women grow up having a hard time saying "No" to a man when it comes to sex because as young girls we want to make the guy we are with happy. She said that she believes most young women have their first sexual encounters not because they want to have sex but because they like a boy and want to keep him around and not lose him. As women grow up and into adults, we still associate saying "No" to sexual advances as creating a situation where the guy will basically leave.

Thus, women are raised to be non combative/non confrontational and thus couch negative opinions or feelings in softer, less direct language. And further, believe that since guy are so hardwired for sex that their failure to give in to those desires may create a situation where the guy moves on. She said there were times she found herself in a physically intimate environment where she realized that she didn't want to be in that situation or in that position, but she allowed it to progress to that point for a variety of reasons discussed above.

EDIT TO ADD: She meant saying "No" in general to many things. Not just sexual encounters.

She's got that right.

 

[timschochet]

Without being too explicit, if you force yourself into a woman, and she doesn't want it, you're going to know, if you know what I mean. She's going to be dry, and the sex is going to be painful for her.

In addition, she's not going to move with you. If I was with a girl who wasn't moving during intercourse, I would know something was wrong and I would stop and ask her what's wrong.

 

[dparker713]

Without being too explicit, if you force yourself into a woman, and she doesn't want it, you're going to know, if you know what I mean. She's going to be dry, and the sex is going to be painful for her.

In addition, she's not going to move with you. If I was with a girl who wasn't moving during intercourse, I would know something was wrong and I would stop and ask her what's wrong.

If men can get an erection during a rape, why do you suppose a woman can't be aroused during the same?

 

[Slapdash]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

I'm not suggesting in any way affirmative consent is required. But, you know, there's a pretty huge ocean between, "is it okay if I kiss you" to "Is it okay if I push you down on this bed and hold you down while I roughly #### you, even though we haven't had sex at all yet?"

You should really think hard on the latter.

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the point I was addressing. I posted earlier in the thread that I think this was probably a rape because of the pinning-her-down-after-she-resists part, so I agree with you on that one.

I just wanted to chime in on how silly the affirmative consent standard is. You would think that all adults would realize that this isn't how sex works, but apparently not.

We're not talking about "how sex works" but how "hooking up works". It is pretty clear women have problems with how the latter is going.

I'm old and a little out of it, but I'm fairly sure hooking up involves sex.

It also seems to involve an uncomfortable amount of rape. Maybe there are some aspects of it we should not be encouraging in culture and the law.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Without being too explicit, if you force yourself into a woman, and she doesn't want it, you're going to know, if you know what I mean. She's going to be dry, and the sex is going to be painful for her.

In addition, she's not going to move with you. If I was with a girl who wasn't moving during intercourse, I would know something was wrong and I would stop and ask her what's wrong.

Yeah but by then it's too late, you're already a rapist. Oops, rape.

 

[Slapdash]

I don't know why I care, but I read this post to several woman, and they advised not rape. Every single one of them said that in the scenario described, the guy was being assertive...which you acknowledged that you like...and at any point(clothes coming off, him getting on the bed.) she could of said stop, or I don't want to do this.

I spoke to my girlfriend about this and had her read it to get her response. She definitely did not feel comfortable calling it rape though was not ruling it out. She believed that unless a woman says "no" or aggressively pushes/kicks/squirms/screams, she has a hard time calling it rape. She did provide some interesting viewpoints on the subject that I thought I would throw out there.

She said that women in general have a hard time saying "no" and will often couch it in softer sentence structure or words so as not to be so direct or insensitive. She said that it is quite possible that her saying "I don't think that is a good idea" was really her saying "No". She went on to say that women grow up having a hard time saying "No" to a man when it comes to sex because as young girls we want to make the guy we are with happy. She said that she believes most young women have their first sexual encounters not because they want to have sex but because they like a boy and want to keep him around and not lose him. As women grow up and into adults, we still associate saying "No" to sexual advances as creating a situation where the guy will basically leave.

Thus, women are raised to be non combative/non confrontational and thus couch negative opinions or feelings in softer, less direct language. And further, believe that since guy are so hardwired for sex that their failure to give in to those desires may create a situation where the guy moves on. She said there were times she found herself in a physically intimate environment where she realized that she didn't want to be in that situation or in that position, but she allowed it to progress to that point for a variety of reasons discussed above.

EDIT TO ADD: She meant saying "No" in general to many things. Not just sexual encounters.

She's got that right.

She hasn't met No. 16

 

[Christo]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

I'm not suggesting in any way affirmative consent is required. But, you know, there's a pretty huge ocean between, "is it okay if I kiss you" to "Is it okay if I push you down on this bed and hold you down while I roughly #### you, even though we haven't had sex at all yet?"

You should really think hard on the latter.

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the point I was addressing. I posted earlier in the thread that I think this was probably a rape because of the pinning-her-down-after-she-resists part, so I agree with you on that one.

I just wanted to chime in on how silly the affirmative consent standard is. You would think that all adults would realize that this isn't how sex works, but apparently not.

We're not talking about "how sex works" but how "hooking up works". It is pretty clear women have problems with how the latter is going.

I'm old and a little out of it, but I'm fairly sure hooking up involves sex.

It also seems to involve an uncomfortable amount of rape. Maybe there are some aspects of it we should not be encouraging in culture and the law.

Or maybe women should learn to say "no."

 

[whiskey7]

Papa G

If you care to, I for one, am willing to grant you a mulligan on the description of the events that transpired and would like to here a more thorough accounting of how it all went down. I think it is fair to say that you have been a little less than precise in your wording.

The crux of the issue for me and I think many of those who have made similar points is that we are truly unclear as to what exactly she did with respect to the alleged pushing back/arms pinned aspects of this episode. A couple others have asked about whether a condom was used, etc.

I am of the opinion that were you to provide a more thorough explanation of the events that transpired that you would probably get a consensus opinion from the board. Barring any further elaboration on your part, I am pretty much tapping out on this thread. I know that you have expressed some offense at some of our comments, but I think the conversation has for the most part been fairly constructive and argued in good faith by all.

Regardless, it has definitely given me food for thought and definitely given me some points to remember when I speak to my boys in the future about sex, consent, etc.

I appreciate it and honestly most people eventually tried to reword things I found to be offensive. I know I am too close to the fire to be totally objective here. I have not in anyway tried to deceive anyone consciously. I have tried to explain that I became more descriptive later because my typical writing style it to try and be efficient and to the point, later I was trying to paint a picture of the events.I might talk to her again tomorrow about this at which time I will update and maybe clear some things up.

I've been as curious to the specifics as anyone else, and I think I can speak for everyone that you should in no way talk to her about this to help our understanding of the situation. If you feel you can help her feel better or be there for her in some way, that's your call. But we're entirely insignificant to the entire situation.

Disagree. I think PG should send her a link to this thread so she can post in it and tell us all wtf really happened. Oh, wait. She probably doesn't know PG has created a thread on a message board about something she told him (presumably) in confidence. PG, for as upset as you seem to be about what you claim happened to her and as much as you've attempted to demonize the guy, have you considered what her reaction would be if she knew a bunch of randoms were discussing "one of the worst night's of her life" on a flippin fantasy football message board?

 

[timschochet]

That's not fair. We don't know her name or the first thing about her.

 

[loser]

If she only told two people in her life, why are you one of them?

Serious question.

 

[Rick James]

WHO WAS PHONE

 

[whiskey7]

If she only told two people in her life, why are you one of them?

Serious question.

and why did PG not read that loud and clear that she did not want many people to know? Seems PG ignored her wishes and/or did not get her consent before sharing the details of the alleged event.

 

[tdoss]

I really wished I understood how the hug seals the deal for the OP. I'm just not getting the point...

He sees her...gives her a hug...she doesn't respond...he lets go.

Somehow that paints him as a rapist...especially because he let go because they're in public?!

What the hell?

I think if I hug someone who didn't respond...I'd let go to...guess I'm a rapist and just didn't realize it...thanks OP, for bringing this to my attention.

What was the alternative for this physically violent sexually assaulting maniac? Was he supposed to continue the hug? Thankfully this was in public or he could still be holding her in his warm embrace still at this moment.

 

[FUBAR]

I don't know why I care, but I read this post to several woman, and they advised not rape. Every single one of them said that in the scenario described, the guy was being assertive...which you acknowledged that you like...and at any point(clothes coming off, him getting on the bed.) she could of said stop, or I don't want to do this.

I spoke to my girlfriend about this and had her read it to get her response. She definitely did not feel comfortable calling it rape though was not ruling it out. She believed that unless a woman says "no" or aggressively pushes/kicks/squirms/screams, she has a hard time calling it rape. She did provide some interesting viewpoints on the subject that I thought I would throw out there.

She said that women in general have a hard time saying "no" and will often couch it in softer sentence structure or words so as not to be so direct or insensitive. She said that it is quite possible that her saying "I don't think that is a good idea" was really her saying "No". She went on to say that women grow up having a hard time saying "No" to a man when it comes to sex because as young girls we want to make the guy we are with happy. She said that she believes most young women have their first sexual encounters not because they want to have sex but because they like a boy and want to keep him around and not lose him. As women grow up and into adults, we still associate saying "No" to sexual advances as creating a situation where the guy will basically leave.

Thus, women are raised to be non combative/non confrontational and thus couch negative opinions or feelings in softer, less direct language. And further, believe that since guy are so hardwired for sex that their failure to give in to those desires may create a situation where the guy moves on. She said there were times she found herself in a physically intimate environment where she realized that she didn't want to be in that situation or in that position, but she allowed it to progress to that point for a variety of reasons discussed above.

EDIT TO ADD: She meant saying "No" in general to many things. Not just sexual encounters.

my wife read the OP and replied she thought it was rape.

She also has no problem saying "no".

 

[PatsWillWin]

Maybe she should all just settle on "Maybe, it depends" and go outside or something.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I understand the issue with posting about this on a message board. First of all she probably would be upset, I think my original thought in starting this post though was to see if I was right and if she needed help. I have taken steps to hide her identity without it changing the story.

I am not sure why she told me. We were pretty close when she played for me.

tdoss, The hug does not make him a rapist but I think it shows a pattern of behavior that this guy doesn't respect the boundaries that most people do. Not only did he give her an awkward hug but when she didn't reciprocate he latched on and wouldn't let her go until she starts struggling. We can talk about mixed signals and all the mistakes the girl made during the night in question but the 2nd encounter shows similar behavior from the guy with no mixed signals from the girl. I do appreciate you over generalizing my statement though. While I hesitate to say this because I will be told it's because your opinion differs from mine your post, the condescending tone and lack of sensitivity are the types of posts that I have take exception to. You can make whatever point you like, just not sure why you feel the need to respond in such a way. I know the post you are responding to I myself did the same, however it was in response to somewhat offensive remarks from others.

 

[Otis]

I really wished I understood how the hug seals the deal for the OP. I'm just not getting the point...

He sees her...gives her a hug...she doesn't respond...he lets go.

Somehow that paints him as a rapist...especially because he let go because they're in public?!

What the hell?

Tons of reaching in here.

 

[Otis]

I don't know why I care, but I read this post to several woman, and they advised not rape. Every single one of them said that in the scenario described, the guy was being assertive...which you acknowledged that you like...and at any point(clothes coming off, him getting on the bed.) she could of said stop, or I don't want to do this.

I spoke to my girlfriend about this and had her read it to get her response. She definitely did not feel comfortable calling it rape though was not ruling it out. She believed that unless a woman says "no" or aggressively pushes/kicks/squirms/screams, she has a hard time calling it rape. She did provide some interesting viewpoints on the subject that I thought I would throw out there.

She said that women in general have a hard time saying "no" and will often couch it in softer sentence structure or words so as not to be so direct or insensitive. She said that it is quite possible that her saying "I don't think that is a good idea" was really her saying "No". She went on to say that women grow up having a hard time saying "No" to a man when it comes to sex because as young girls we want to make the guy we are with happy. She said that she believes most young women have their first sexual encounters not because they want to have sex but because they like a boy and want to keep him around and not lose him. As women grow up and into adults, we still associate saying "No" to sexual advances as creating a situation where the guy will basically leave.

Thus, women are raised to be non combative/non confrontational and thus couch negative opinions or feelings in softer, less direct language. And further, believe that since guy are so hardwired for sex that their failure to give in to those desires may create a situation where the guy moves on. She said there were times she found herself in a physically intimate environment where she realized that she didn't want to be in that situation or in that position, but she allowed it to progress to that point for a variety of reasons discussed above.

EDIT TO ADD: She meant saying "No" in general to many things. Not just sexual encounters.

my wife read the OP and replied she thought it was rape.

She also has no problem saying "no".

They learn that word in the wifing class they take.

 

[PatsWillWin]

He hugs like a rapist would hug.

 

[Papa Georgio]

Maybe she should all just settle on "Maybe, it depends" and go outside or something.

I have already said I think it's very possible both sides are right.

I just have a hard time thinking that there is no way the guy on some level didn't know or couldn't realize. We won't solve it and both sides are pretty established in their point of view. I am not in anyway implying anything about the "isn't rape" crowd but some of the opinions honestly make me sad. I detailed a girl doing almost the exact same thing to me once during college except she allowed me to get about 3 good strokes in before she stopped me, I asked her what was wrong (I'm sure this isn't exactly how I typed it out the 1st time so I apologize). She said she couldn't do this and that she had only been with 1 other guy in her life. I got up, I got dressed, and I went home. She didn't say no, rather she stopped moving the right way and more or less had her hands on me in a way to resist me as I was on the down stroke. Girl calls me the next day thanking me for how I handled it.

There is no need to question my sexual experiences. Just because I can tell when a girl wants to stop doesn't mean I haven't had great adventurous sex.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I do apologize for being overly emotional at times. It is not my intention to attack others that don't agree with me. I have not wanted to "change facts". I feel like the events are the same I simply attempted to be more descriptive. I appreciate about 90% of what has been said, including those who don't necessarily agree with me.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Gotta agree with Otis at this point. "Affirmative consent" is the feminist version of "abstinence-only" sex ed in that they both share a completely unrealistic, ideological approach to sex.

I'm not suggesting in any way affirmative consent is required. But, you know, there's a pretty huge ocean between, "is it okay if I kiss you" to "Is it okay if I push you down on this bed and hold you down while I roughly #### you, even though we haven't had sex at all yet?"

You should really think hard on the latter.

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the point I was addressing. I posted earlier in the thread that I think this was probably a rape because of the pinning-her-down-after-she-resists part, so I agree with you on that one.

I just wanted to chime in on how silly the affirmative consent standard is. You would think that all adults would realize that this isn't how sex works, but apparently not.

We're not talking about "how sex works" but how "hooking up works". It is pretty clear women have problems with how the latter is going.

I'm old and a little out of it, but I'm fairly sure hooking up involves sex.

It also seems to involve an uncomfortable amount of rape. Maybe there are some aspects of it we should not be encouraging in culture and the law.

That's exactly what I mean when I say that an affirmative consent standard is an overly-ideological response to sex. People get it in their head that folks should really get a clear "yes" prior to each stage of sexual activity. That's a nice idea in theory, and I agree with it as a principle. But it's also not how sex works, especially among young, immature, and usually intoxicated college-aged couples. Re-writing the law to require affirmative consent, or brow-beating universities into adopting such a standard, just has the effect of turning a majority of college students -- both men and women -- into rapists in the eyes of the law. That trivializes actual sexual violence, damages the credibility of the law itself, and imposes real harm on people who didn't do anything wrong other than living their lives in manner that you disapprove of.

Like I said earlier, if we were talking about abstinence-only sex ed, everybody would agree that basing policy on a patently unrealistic view of human behavior isn't a good idea. This is the same thing, only from a different ideology.