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What happened/was around before the "Big Bang" (1 Viewer)

top dog

top dog

Footballguy
While I am someone who believes in God, I am not a bible thumper who relates everything back to the bible as answers. I believe that the bible is a guide to salvation and is not really something that was meant to explain how the universe was created let alone how the world came to be, scientifically. I don't believe that everything in the bible was meant to be take literally by a people of our advanced scientific understanding of things. It was written for a primitive people here on Earth at the time.

I only point all of that out to try and make it clear that this is not some veiled attempt to disprove the Big Bang theory or any other scientific theories as to how the Earth came to be. I believe in both God AND evolution so I feel it is possible to believe in both science and faith and not one or the other.

Can someone explain what was around/happned PRIOR to the Big Bang in somewhat simple terms so that those of us who do not have a background in science can understand?

Or at least some :unsure: 's that don't read like a physics book?

TIA.

 
Seriously, "time" is a dimension of the Universe that was created at the Big Bang.

It's not like there was an empty room somewhere or some empty space that the universe exploded into. The space and the time were created by it.

To ask what came before is, as Hawking said, like asking what is north of the North Pole.

 
videoguy505 said:
Seriously, "time" is a dimension of the Universe that was created at the Big Bang.It's not like there was an empty room somewhere or some empty space that the universe exploded into. The space and the time were created by it.To ask what came before is, as Hawking said, like asking what is north of the North Pole.
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That's interesting... Who came up with that theory? I'd like to see some more info on it.
 
top dog said:
videoguy505 said:
Seriously, "time" is a dimension of the Universe that was created at the Big Bang.It's not like there was an empty room somewhere or some empty space that the universe exploded into. The space and the time were created by it.To ask what came before is, as Hawking said, like asking what is north of the North Pole.
Click to expand...
That's interesting... Who came up with that theory? I'd like to see some more info on it.
Click to expand...
That time is a dimension? The destruction of "absolute time" is General Relativity.
 
In 1916 Albert Einstein developed theory of relativity and he didn't like where his calculations where leading him: That there was a definite beginning to all time, all matter and all space. He found the discovery "irritating" and introduced a fudge factor called a cosmological constant to avoid an absolute beginning. This fudge factor was removed my in 1922 and by a Russian scientist who also proved the universe is expanding: Edwin Hubble confirmed this in 1927.

In 1929 Albert Einstein looked into Hubble's telescope and saw for himself that the universe was expanding just like his theory predicted. He later called his cosmological constant the "greatest blunder in my life".

There are 5 laws and observations that prove the big bang.

I can go into some detail if you like.



This leads to what is called the cosmological argument:

1. Everything had a beginning and a cause;

2. The universe has a beginning;

3. Therefore the universe has a cause.

 
I have to admit that I am not well versed in Einstein's theories...

So basically, time as we know it began with the big bang? I'm trying to put this in a nutshell, yes..

 
If you really want to blow your mind... first, consider the Universe is expanding from the energy of the Big Bang. Then, ask where that Big Bang happened... where, in the current Universe, is that point where the original singularity occurred... where is the center of the Universe?

 
top dog said:
perry147 said:
golddigger said:
Without matter and energy time has no meaning. So yes time started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
Everything started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
:lmao: How is that possible?

Wouldn't there have to be SOMETHING prior to the big bang? I thought there is a belief that matter cannot be destroyed or created, only changed? Or something like that..
Click to expand...
The only way the Universe, as it is now, could exist in its current state (infinite size, and expanding) is if the original state was a singularity. That is, infinite energy condensed into zero size. You get a nice 1/0, an infinity, a divide by zero. So there was nothing before, and infinity afterward.
 
top dog said:
perry147 said:
golddigger said:
Without matter and energy time has no meaning. So yes time started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
Everything started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
:lmao: How is that possible?

Wouldn't there have to be SOMETHING prior to the big bang? I thought there is a belief that matter cannot be destroyed or created, only changed? Or something like that..
Click to expand...
Here is a link for you.
A common question that people ask is "What happened before the Big Bang?" The phrase "in the beginning" is used here to refer to the birth of our universe with the Big Bang. In the creation of the universe, everything was compressed into an infinitesimally small point in which all physical laws that we know of do not apply. No information from any "previous" stuff could have remained intact. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, the Big Bang is considered thebeginning of everything, for we can never know if there was anything before it.
Click to expand...
 
perry147 said:
top dog said:
perry147 said:
golddigger said:
Without matter and energy time has no meaning. So yes time started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
Everything started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
:lmao: How is that possible?

Wouldn't there have to be SOMETHING prior to the big bang? I thought there is a belief that matter cannot be destroyed or created, only changed? Or something like that..
Click to expand...
Here is a link for you.
A common question that people ask is "What happened before the Big Bang?" The phrase "in the beginning" is used here to refer to the birth of our universe with the Big Bang. In the creation of the universe, everything was compressed into an infinitesimally small point in which all physical laws that we know of do not apply. No information from any "previous" stuff could have remained intact. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, the Big Bang is considered thebeginning of everything, for we can never know if there was anything before it.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link... I'm not sure I buy into the whole concept... I can accept that the universe is expanding, but to believe that "everything was compressed into an infinitesimally small points in which all physical laws that we know of do not apply" is hard to wrap your head around...
 
To get back to the main point, "Time" is a property of the Universe. It's woven into the three spatial dimensions to form space-time, the fabric of the Universe. Just as one moves through space, one moves through time.

And time moves differently depending on how you observe it. For all of us on Earth at sea level, time moves in a pretty standard way, but it's not the same for everyone, everywhere. The Universe doesn't have an internal clock that runs at a consistent speed.

If I were to go on a rocketship tomorrow with my digital watch, fly into space at high speed until my watch counted off a year, and came back, my watch would read 11/24/2008. Here, though, the rest of you would see it as the year 2315 or something like that.

It's called Time Dilation, and it's pretty common. GPS satellites constantly re-adjust because their clocks run at different speeds than Earth clocks. They can't stay in sync because they're in a different state of the Universe. Time is solely a property of the Universe and does not exist outside it.

Similarly, look at the expansion of the Universe. It is not expanding into empty space--there's nothing on the outside edge it is expanding into. First off, there are no edges--that's just the nature of infinity. But moreover, the Universe does not expand into something, rather, the Universe expands from within. Like two raisins in a loaf of raisin bread baking in the oven, they start close but move apart as more bread is created between them. Or two dots drawn onto the surface of an inflating balloon.

Anyway, mainly we have trouble conceptualizing 4 dimensions, but that's just how it is. And the "Big Bang Theory" is just the best model we've created to explain all the crazy observations we've made, and fits the evidence quite well. Nothing better has ever been suggested and it would take some pretty far-out stuff to come up with an alternate theory to explain how we got to the point we're at... like the discovery that every billion years gravity runs backwards or something.

 
videoguy505 said:
top dog said:
perry147 said:
golddigger said:
Without matter and energy time has no meaning. So yes time started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
Everything started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
:confused: How is that possible?

Wouldn't there have to be SOMETHING prior to the big bang? I thought there is a belief that matter cannot be destroyed or created, only changed? Or something like that..
Click to expand...
The only way the Universe, as it is now, could exist in its current state (infinite size, and expanding) is if the original state was a singularity. That is, infinite energy condensed into zero size. You get a nice 1/0, an infinity, a divide by zero. So there was nothing before, and infinity afterward.
Click to expand...
Right after? Like fractions of milliseconds?
 
videoguy505 said:
To get back to the main point, "Time" is a property of the Universe. It's woven into the three spatial dimensions to form space-time, the fabric of the Universe. Just as one moves through space, one moves through time.

And time moves differently depending on how you observe it. For all of us on Earth at sea level, time moves in a pretty standard way, but it's not the same for everyone, everywhere. The Universe doesn't have an internal clock that runs at a consistent speed.

If I were to go on a rocketship tomorrow with my digital watch, fly into space at high speed until my watch counted off a year, and came back, my watch would read 11/24/2008. Here, though, the rest of you would see it as the year 2315 or something like that.

It's called Time Dilation, and it's pretty common. GPS satellites constantly re-adjust because their clocks run at different speeds than Earth clocks. They can't stay in sync because they're in a different state of the Universe. Time is solely a property of the Universe and does not exist outside it.

Similarly, look at the expansion of the Universe. It is not expanding into empty space--there's nothing on the outside edge it is expanding into. First off, there are no edges--that's just the nature of infinity. But moreover, the Universe does not expand into something, rather, the Universe expands from within. Like two raisins in a loaf of raisin bread baking in the oven, they start close but move apart as more bread is created between them. Or two dots drawn onto the surface of an inflating balloon.

Anyway, mainly we have trouble conceptualizing 4 dimensions, but that's just how it is. And the "Big Bang Theory" is just the best model we've created to explain all the crazy observations we've made, and fits the evidence quite well. Nothing better has ever been suggested and it would take some pretty far-out stuff to come up with an alternate theory to explain how we got to the point we're at... like the discovery that every billion years gravity runs backwards or something.
Click to expand...
:confused: that makes a lot of sense... Except that if you flew out into space until your watch counted off a year and then came back, it would be 2009, not 2008... ;)

I don't know much about Time Dilation.. that is something I will have to lookup, very interesting.. So is Time "speeding up" or "slowing down" as the universe expands? I'm guessing slowing down?

 
videoguy505 said:
Seriously, "time" is a dimension of the Universe that was created at the Big Bang.

It's not like there was an empty room somewhere or some empty space that the universe exploded into. The space and the time were created by it.

To ask what came before is, as Hawking said, like asking what is north of the North Pole.
Click to expand...
well most of us don't.. :confused:

 
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Hipple said:
top dog said:
ok.. I guess no one want's to take a gamble at this one.. :confused:
Click to expand...
I wouldn't even presume to know. That is where you (theists) and us (non-theists) differ.

when we don't know the answer we don't just make up one that sounds good.
Click to expand...
you are mistaken here.. I am not pretending to know any answers here... I stated that I believe that there is a God, but I am completely open to scientific information.. I do not believe that they have to be exclusive of each other. I will not argue that evolution is not real or that the Earth is billions is years old and that there were MANY creatures on this planet prior to man.. I don't know how the universe was created. Or WHAT was there prior to the universe as we know it came into existance.. I wondered what the general thought was for those who are well versed in the theory of the Big Bang.

 
top dog said:
I don't know much about Time Dilation.. that is something I will have to lookup, very interesting.. So is Time "speeding up" or "slowing down" as the universe expands? I'm guessing slowing down?
Click to expand...
No, time "speeds up" or "slows down" on your watch relative to another watch at a rate proportional to your speed through space. It has nothing to do with how the Universe is expanding, since Time isn't absolute to the universe, it's local to where you are and how fast you're moving.A watch on the wrist of a person on a high-speed train moves "slower" than the watch of a person standing on the train platform as it whizzes by. A watch on a GPS satellite above the earth moves slower than one at sea level directly below it.It's just that Time is part of the Universe, was created as a byproduct of the Big Bang, and doesn't exist outside of it.
 
videoguy505 said:
top dog said:
I don't know much about Time Dilation.. that is something I will have to lookup, very interesting.. So is Time "speeding up" or "slowing down" as the universe expands? I'm guessing slowing down?
Click to expand...
No, time "speeds up" or "slows down" on your watch relative to another watch at a rate proportional to your speed through space. It has nothing to do with how the Universe is expanding, since Time isn't absolute to the universe, it's local to where you are and how fast you're moving.A watch on the wrist of a person on a high-speed train moves "slower" than the watch of a person standing on the train platform as it whizzes by. A watch on a GPS satellite above the earth moves slower than one at sea level directly below it.

It's just that Time is part of the Universe, was created as a byproduct of the Big Bang, and doesn't exist outside of it.
Click to expand...
You've said this a few times. What does?
 
Bobcat10 said:
videoguy505 said:
top dog said:
I don't know much about Time Dilation.. that is something I will have to lookup, very interesting.. So is Time "speeding up" or "slowing down" as the universe expands? I'm guessing slowing down?
Click to expand...
No, time "speeds up" or "slows down" on your watch relative to another watch at a rate proportional to your speed through space. It has nothing to do with how the Universe is expanding, since Time isn't absolute to the universe, it's local to where you are and how fast you're moving.A watch on the wrist of a person on a high-speed train moves "slower" than the watch of a person standing on the train platform as it whizzes by. A watch on a GPS satellite above the earth moves slower than one at sea level directly below it.

It's just that Time is part of the Universe, was created as a byproduct of the Big Bang, and doesn't exist outside of it.
Click to expand...
You've said this a few times. What does?
Click to expand...
By definition, everything in the Universe is "in" the Universe, so there is nothing outside of it. Not empty space, not a void, not anything. The initial milliseconds of the Big Bang were not like a balloon inflating inside an empty room, where it's expanding into something. Instead, the infinite matter and energy expanded from within and created space inside itself, and that created stuff became the Universe.Anything that exists outside the Universe would exist outside of existence. Some thing that would not have any commonality with the laws of nature, the Universe, physics, quantum mechanics, anything. Some thing that would not be measurable in terms of size, height, weight, or age. Something that would not be possible to measure with any ruler or scale that could be invented within the Universe.

I dunno what that is. Could be an alternate dimension, could be God, could be anything, but by its very definition would be outside the realm of definition.

 
Hipple said:
top dog said:
ok.. I guess no one want's to take a gamble at this one.. :lmao:
Click to expand...
I wouldn't even presume to know. That is where you (theists) and us (non-theists) differ.when we don't know the answer we don't just make up one that sounds good.
Click to expand...
No, we have an answer, the atheist just don't like the answer: The universe had a beginning. So we are left with two options.1. Either the universe was created from nothing; or,2. The universe was created by something outside the realm of our definition- Like God.There is a lot of information on this subject but I don't have time to get into in now. Some very interesting science but also logic: This has been thought through. I don't have time to get into in now.
when we don't know the answer we don't just make up one that sounds good.
Click to expand...
Do you want to know the 5 scientific reasons that show the universe had a beginning? It will take me time to type up: So if you have made up your mind, I will not go to the effort.
 
golddigger said:
Hipple said:
top dog said:
ok.. I guess no one want's to take a gamble at this one.. :ptts:
Click to expand...
I wouldn't even presume to know. That is where you (theists) and us (non-theists) differ.when we don't know the answer we don't just make up one that sounds good.
Click to expand...
No, we have an answer, the atheist just don't like the answer: The universe had a beginning. So we are left with two options.1. Either the universe was created from nothing; or,2. The universe was created by something outside the realm of our definition- Like God.There is a lot of information on this subject but I don't have time to get into in now. Some very interesting science but also logic: This has been thought through. I don't have time to get into in now.
when we don't know the answer we don't just make up one that sounds good.
Click to expand...
Do you want to know the 5 scientific reasons that show the universe had a beginning? It will take me time to type up: So if you have made up your mind, I will not go to the effort.
Click to expand...
:cry:I would appreciate these contributions.. My mind is definately not made up one way or another.
 
golddigger said:
In 1916 Albert Einstein developed theory of relativity and he didn't like where his calculations where leading him: That there was a definite beginning to all time, all matter and all space. He found the discovery "irritating" and introduced a fudge factor called a cosmological constant to avoid an absolute beginning. This fudge factor was removed my in 1922 and by a Russian scientist who also proved the universe is expanding: Edwin Hubble confirmed this in 1927.

In 1929 Albert Einstein looked into Hubble's telescope and saw for himself that the universe was expanding just like his theory predicted. He later called his cosmological constant the "greatest blunder in my life".

There are 5 laws and observations that prove the big bang.

I can go into some detail if you like.



This leads to what is called the cosmological argument:

1. Everything had a beginning and a cause;

2. The universe has a beginning;

3. Therefore the universe has a cause.
Click to expand...
But, isn't the weakness of the cosmological argument that it never ends? You can keep playing the creator/cause thing over and over.
 
I like to envision the universe as you have this fairly large balloon. Now take an eye dropper and hold it over this balloon. Now release one drop of water. As it reaches the top of the balloon, this is the Big Bang. Now the droplet "expands" by rolling uniformly off the top, and the further away from the Big Bang you get, the faster the expansion gets until it reaches the sides and falls off completely at top speed.

 
perry147 said:
top dog said:
perry147 said:
golddigger said:
Without matter and energy time has no meaning. So yes time started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
Everything started at the big bang.
Click to expand...
:cry: How is that possible?

Wouldn't there have to be SOMETHING prior to the big bang? I thought there is a belief that matter cannot be destroyed or created, only changed? Or something like that..
Click to expand...
Here is a link for you.
A common question that people ask is "What happened before the Big Bang?" The phrase "in the beginning" is used here to refer to the birth of our universe with the Big Bang. In the creation of the universe, everything was compressed into an infinitesimally small point in which all physical laws that we know of do not apply. No information from any "previous" stuff could have remained intact. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, the Big Bang is considered thebeginning of everything, for we can never know if there was anything before it.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
this makes my head hurt thinking about it.
 
top dog said:
golddigger said:
Hipple said:
top dog said:
ok.. I guess no one want's to take a gamble at this one.. :lmao:
Click to expand...
I wouldn't even presume to know. That is where you (theists) and us (non-theists) differ.

when we don't know the answer we don't just make up one that sounds good.
Click to expand...
No, we have an answer, the atheist just don't like the answer: The universe had a beginning. So we are left with two options.1. Either the universe was created from nothing; or,

2. The universe was created by something outside the realm of our definition- Like God.

There is a lot of information on this subject but I don't have time to get into in now. Some very interesting science but also logic: This has been thought through. I don't have time to get into in now.

when we don't know the answer we don't just make up one that sounds good.
Click to expand...
Do you want to know the 5 scientific reasons that show the universe had a beginning? It will take me time to type up: So if you have made up your mind, I will not go to the effort.
Click to expand...
:cry: I would appreciate these contributions.. My mind is definately not made up one way or another.
Click to expand...
Five reasons the universe had a beginning: SURGE

1. Second law of Thermodynamics: Simplified it means things from order to disorder. This applies to energy; every reaction looses energy. If the universe was eternal we would have reached complete disorder: For example, all the suns would have burnt out.

2. Universe is expanding: Edwin Hubble proved the universe was expanding. It is important to note that the universe is not expanding into empty space, but space itself is expanding- there was no space before the big bang.

3. Radiation: Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMB) that was discovered in 1965 by Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson from Bell Labs. This discovery won them the Nobel Peace prize. What they found was the afterglow from the big bang fireball explosion (radiation). This cosmic background radiation is actually light and heat from the initial explosion. The light is no longer visible because its wavelengths have been stretched by the expanding universe to wavelengths slightly shorter than those produced by a microwave oven. But the heat can still be detected. The wave lengths are exactly like what you would get from a big bang explosion.

4. Great Galaxy Seeds: NASA launched a satellite in 1989 called COBE (Cosmic Background Explorer) looking for cosmic ripples in the temperature of the cosmic background radiation that Penzias and Wilson had discovered. These ripples enabled matter to congregate by gravitational attraction into galaxies called the Great Galaxy Seeds. COBE not only found these ripples but where amazed at the precision. The ripples show that the explosion and the expansion of the universe was precisely tweaked to cause just enough matter to congregate to allow galaxy formation, but not enough to cause the universe to collapse back on itself. Any slight variation one way or the other we would not be here to talk about it. The ripples are so exact that (down to one part in one hundred thousand) that Smoot (NASA’s Project leader) called them “machining marks form the creation of the universe” and the “finger prints of the maker”. Here are some pictures from COBE: http://lambda.gsfc.nasa.gov/product/cobe/slide_captions.cfm. Steven Hawking called this “the most important discovery of the century if not of all time”

5. Einstein’s theory of Relativity: The theory states there are an absolute beginning for time, space and matter are co-relative. That is, they are interdependent-you can’t have on without the others.

 
Prior to the Big Bang, "what" is undefined, as is "when". The Bing Bang and the creation of the Universe created the "what" and "when". "How" this occurred is unknown and likely will never be known. "Where" this occurred is the Universe itself, i.e. you.

Does that answer your questions? The Big Bang Theory is pretty bizarre when taken at face value. Then again, so is quantum mechanics. That doesn't mean that the theory is wrong or bad or invalid. It just means that it's the best theory that fits the evidence that humanity has collected to this date. It is not infallible and has been revised many times over. Furthermore it is not an unchanging theory, and there are certain variations on it when researching the fuzzy or cutting edge portions depending on who you ask.

 
Kalam Cosmological Argument:

1. An infinite number of days has no end

2. But today is the end day of history (history is a collection of all days)

3. Therefore, there were not an infinite number of days before today (i.e. time had a beginning)

To grasp this argument draw a line starting at today and drawing a line with arrow back into time:

Distant history Previous day Yesterday Today

<------------------------------------------------------------x

If you look at the line it stops at today because tomorrow isn’t here yet. Now, here’s how this proves that time had a beginning: since the line certainly ends on the right, the time line cannot be infinite because something that is infinite has no end.. Moreover, you can’t add anything to something that is infinite, but tomorrow we will add another day to our time line. So the time line is undeniably finite. Looking at it from a different angle, if there where an infinite number of days before today, then today would never come. The line to the left would be constantly expanding.

Since the universe had a beginning it had to have a beginner.

 
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golddigger said:
Kalam Cosmological Argument:1. An infinite number of days has no end2. But today is the end day of history (history is a collection of all days)3. Therefore, there were not an infinite number of days before today (i.e. time had a beginning)To grasp this argument draw a line starting at today and drawing a line with arrow back into time:Distant history Previous day Yesterday Today<------------------------------------------------------------xIf you look at the line it stops at today because tomorrow isn’t here yet. Now, here’s how this proves that time had a beginning: since the line certainly ends on the right, the time line cannot be infinite because something that is infinite has no end.. Moreover, you can’t add anything to something that is infinite, but tomorrow we will add another day to our time line. So the time line is undeniably finite. Looking at it from a different angle, if there where an infinite number of days before today, then today would never come. The line to the left would be constantly expanding.Since the universe had a beginning it had to have a beginner.
Click to expand...
Weak argument IMHO. That's like saying the list of positive integers isn't infinite because it has an end on one side (1).
 
videoguy505 said:
golddigger said:
Kalam Cosmological Argument:1. An infinite number of days has no end2. But today is the end day of history (history is a collection of all days)3. Therefore, there were not an infinite number of days before today (i.e. time had a beginning)To grasp this argument draw a line starting at today and drawing a line with arrow back into time:Distant history Previous day Yesterday Today<------------------------------------------------------------xIf you look at the line it stops at today because tomorrow isn’t here yet. Now, here’s how this proves that time had a beginning: since the line certainly ends on the right, the time line cannot be infinite because something that is infinite has no end.. Moreover, you can’t add anything to something that is infinite, but tomorrow we will add another day to our time line. So the time line is undeniably finite. Looking at it from a different angle, if there where an infinite number of days before today, then today would never come. The line to the left would be constantly expanding.Since the universe had a beginning it had to have a beginner.
Click to expand...
Weak argument IMHO. That's like saying the list of positive integers isn't infinite because it has an end on one side (1).
Click to expand...
True on one hand, but time moves forward by definition. You can not backfill days or create history in reverse.
 
The arguments I have been making are from a speech by Norman Geisler

Who made God? If everything needs a cause then God needs one to.

The law of Causality is the very foundation of science. Science is in search for causes, that everything that has a beginning has a cause.

Answer: The laws of Causality do not say that everything needs a cause. It says that everything that come to be needs a cause. God did not come to be. No one made God, so he does not need a cause.

The natural reply: If you can’t have an eternal God, than I can have an eternal universe.

Yes it is logically possible that the universe is eternal and does not need a cause. In fact, there are only two possibilities: either the universe is eternal or something outside the universe is eternal. The problem for atheist is that it is logically possible that the universe is eternal; it does not seem to be actually possible because of the items listed previously. So by ruling out that option we are left with the other option-something outside the universe is eternal.

The first cause must be:

1. Self existent, timeless, non spacial, and immaterial since the first cause created time, space and matter). In other words, he is without limits, or infinite;

2. Unimaginable powerful, to create the entire universe out of nothing;

3. Supremely intelligent, to design the universe with such incredible precision. (I can get into more of this later.)

An interesting question: If there is not God, why is there something rather than nothing at all?

 
golddigger said:
The arguments I have been making are from a speech by Norman Geisler

Who made God? If everything needs a cause then God needs one to.

The law of Causality is the very foundation of science. Science is in search for causes, that everything that has a beginning has a cause.

Answer: The laws of Causality do not say that everything needs a cause. It says that everything that come to be needs a cause. God did not come to be. No one made God, so he does not need a cause.

The natural reply: If you can't have an eternal God, than I can have an eternal universe.

Yes it is logically possible that the universe is eternal and does not need a cause. In fact, there are only two possibilities: either the universe is eternal or something outside the universe is eternal. The problem for atheist is that it is logically possible that the universe is eternal; it does not seem to be actually possible because of the items listed previously. So by ruling out that option we are left with the other option-something outside the universe is eternal.

The first cause must be:

1. Self existent, timeless, non spacial, and immaterial since the first cause created time, space and matter). In other words, he is without limits, or infinite;

2. Unimaginable powerful, to create the entire universe out of nothing;

3. Supremely intelligent, to design the universe with such incredible precision. (I can get into more of this later.)

An interesting question: If there is not God, why is there something rather than nothing at all?
Click to expand...
goldigger has resorted to using anyone but himself as a source out of fear we all may find out he has no idea what he is talking about.
 
matuski said:
golddigger said:
The arguments I have been making are from a speech by Norman Geisler

Who made God? If everything needs a cause then God needs one to.

The law of Causality is the very foundation of science. Science is in search for causes, that everything that has a beginning has a cause.

Answer: The laws of Causality do not say that everything needs a cause. It says that everything that come to be needs a cause. God did not come to be. No one made God, so he does not need a cause.

The natural reply: If you can't have an eternal God, than I can have an eternal universe.

Yes it is logically possible that the universe is eternal and does not need a cause. In fact, there are only two possibilities: either the universe is eternal or something outside the universe is eternal. The problem for atheist is that it is logically possible that the universe is eternal; it does not seem to be actually possible because of the items listed previously. So by ruling out that option we are left with the other option-something outside the universe is eternal.

The first cause must be:

1. Self existent, timeless, non spacial, and immaterial since the first cause created time, space and matter). In other words, he is without limits, or infinite;

2. Unimaginable powerful, to create the entire universe out of nothing;

3. Supremely intelligent, to design the universe with such incredible precision. (I can get into more of this later.)

An interesting question: If there is not God, why is there something rather than nothing at all?
Click to expand...
goldigger has resorted to using anyone but himself as a source out of fear we all may find out he has no idea what he is talking about.
Click to expand...
At least he is providing a viewpoint. It's better than just saying.. "Because".
 
top dog said:
matuski said:
golddigger said:
The arguments I have been making are from a speech by Norman Geisler

Who made God? If everything needs a cause then God needs one to.

The law of Causality is the very foundation of science. Science is in search for causes, that everything that has a beginning has a cause.

Answer: The laws of Causality do not say that everything needs a cause. It says that everything that come to be needs a cause. God did not come to be. No one made God, so he does not need a cause.

The natural reply: If you can't have an eternal God, than I can have an eternal universe.

Yes it is logically possible that the universe is eternal and does not need a cause. In fact, there are only two possibilities: either the universe is eternal or something outside the universe is eternal. The problem for atheist is that it is logically possible that the universe is eternal; it does not seem to be actually possible because of the items listed previously. So by ruling out that option we are left with the other option-something outside the universe is eternal.

The first cause must be:

1. Self existent, timeless, non spacial, and immaterial since the first cause created time, space and matter). In other words, he is without limits, or infinite;

2. Unimaginable powerful, to create the entire universe out of nothing;

3. Supremely intelligent, to design the universe with such incredible precision. (I can get into more of this later.)

An interesting question: If there is not God, why is there something rather than nothing at all?
Click to expand...
goldigger has resorted to using anyone but himself as a source out of fear we all may find out he has no idea what he is talking about.
Click to expand...
At least he is providing a viewpoint. It's better than just saying.. "Because".
Click to expand...
if you say so.ps - i still say there was a lot of gin rummy goin on before the big bang.

 
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