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Who's better, Manning or Brady?

Who's the better quarterback?  

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It's a pretty simple answer.

Brady, and it's not even close. Stats do matter, but wins matter more.

13 of Manning's regular season 75 losses were his rookie year on a terrible team. In fact, 32 of those losses were in his first 4 years on a Colts's team with a lousy defense (average of #22 in points allowed).

Since then he's had a winning percentage of 76.6% (141-43) compared to Brady's career of 77.5% (155-45) with vastly better defenses - the Patriots under Brady never ranked lower than #17 in points allowed. 10 times Brady had a top 10 defense - Peyton only 6 (5 with the Colts and 1 with the Broncos).

Brady is lucky as hell to have been drafted by Belichick's Patriots.

brady never threw more than 14 picks in a season his entire career

in manning's first 3 years in the league he averaged 19 picks/year, and was a pick off the league leader in his 2nd year, chucking 23 of them.

do you think maybe the other team might score more when you continually feed them the ball?

all I've been hearing since manning went to denver is what a great defense he's got -- what's his excuse now?

They both have historically great low INT%.

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I used to think Brady for much the same argument as Bloom made in 2005. But now, in light of recent revelations about Spygate, I wonder how much of Brady's coolness was because he had a coach in his ear surveying the field for him and analyzing defensive formations. There is no way to know for sure and the league for some reason destroyed the evidence. But I believe it was widespread, and it was a huge advantage. This has to factor or at least be an asterix in any consideration of Brady and Bellichick.

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It's just comical to me that people still think Manning is a better QB. It's been proven over and over again that Brady is indeed better. Who wins the big games? Brady. Who has more Super Bowl wins? Brady. Who has the most playoff losses as a QB? Manning. Who has the most playoff wins? Brady. You can sit here and argue about stats all day long, but at the end of the day it's pretty obvious the overall better QB is Brady. At least in Brady's two SB losses to the Giants he didn't fold and get crushed after the first play of the game. I just don't see how anyone can think Manning is a better QB when all he does is choke when it means the most.

Edited by devouredbychaos
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Brady. Better when it counts. More rings. Supermodel wife. Only place Manning beats Brady is talent level of supporting cast.

I think the two are a wash but I am not sure you can not say Brady doesn't have a great surround cast over the years. They always seem to have a pretty good O-Line although not as good as Manning's but Brady had both Randy Moss and now Gronk who have put up some crazy numbers. Now this could be from Brady being so good or the fact that these are two of the most gifted athletes in the last 20 years.... Just look at the difference between what seems to be 100% Gronk and 50% Gronk....

Manning has never had a WR as great as Randy Moss.

Manning has never had a TE as great as Rob Gronkowski.

Brady has never had to play against a Belichick-coached team.

Brady has spent his entire career being coached by arguably the best head coach of the last 25 years.

Bottom line: it's all how you look at it. So many facts can be pointed out to turn the argument in favor of whichever guy you think is better. But, like I have said before, these are two of the best to ever play the position, and only a dimwit would say otherwise, so instead of tearing down one to prop up the other, we really should just enjoy the greatness of both before they both retire here in a few years. :cool:

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It's just comical to me that people still think Manning is a better QB. It's been proven over and over again that Brady is indeed better. Who wins the big games? Brady. Who has more Super Bowl wins? Brady. Who has the most playoff losses as a QB? Manning. Who has the most playoff wins? Brady. You can sit here and argue about stats all day long, but at the end of the day it's pretty obvious the overall better QB is Brady. At least in Brady's two SB losses to the Giants he didn't fold and get crushed after the first play of the game. I just don't see how anyone can think Manning is a better QB when all he does is choke when it means the most.

What is a big game? If you mean Super Bowl, how many big games has Brady's team won in the last 9 years?

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It's a pretty simple answer.

Brady, and it's not even close. Stats do matter, but wins matter more.

13 of Manning's regular season 75 losses were his rookie year on a terrible team. In fact, 32 of those losses were in his first 4 years on a Colts's team with a lousy defense (average of #22 in points allowed).

Since then he's had a winning percentage of 76.6% (141-43) compared to Brady's career of 77.5% (155-45) with vastly better defenses - the Patriots under Brady never ranked lower than #17 in points allowed. 10 times Brady had a top 10 defense - Peyton only 6 (5 with the Colts and 1 with the Broncos).

Brady is lucky as hell to have been drafted by Belichick's Patriots.

Some numbers:

Games under 24 points given up:

Manning - 141-18 (.887) (2 losses in first season on Colts would be .898)

Brady - 134-13 (.912)

Game of 24+ points given up:

Manning - 43-69 (.384) (11 losses in first season on Colts would be .425)

Brady - 39-41 (.488)

Times scoring more than 24+ points:

Manning - 166 of 272 (61%)

Brady - 139 of 228 (61%)

Average points allowed by team:

Manning - 21.5

Brady - 18.8

If the team does give up 24 points what is the average they normally give up:

Manning - 30.7 (6% more PPG given up when allowing 24+ points)

Brady - 28.9

Numbers show these two are very very close. When you consider after throwing out Manning's rookie season vs Brady coming into a playoff contender its just ever so slight of a margin.

Again I see both as pretty much equal, if I had a bad team I was trying to turn around I would take Manning in his prime. If I had a good team who just kept falling short I would take Brady in his prime. I feel that Bellichek plays a lot into Brady's success but since I dont know for sure you gotta think Brady just has better ability to deal with the spotlight of big games.

It is obvious you are a Peyton guy, but do you even look up stuff or just hope you get it close and no one will notice. You can't take out Manning's rookie year because it helps you argument. The Patriots weren't a playoff team in 2001 when Brady took over, they were 0 - 2 and coming off a 5 - 11 season the year before.

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I used to think Brady for much the same argument as Bloom made in 2005. But now, in light of recent revelations about Spygate, I wonder how much of Brady's coolness was because he had a coach in his ear surveying the field for him and analyzing defensive formations. There is no way to know for sure and the league for some reason destroyed the evidence. But I believe it was widespread, and it was a huge advantage. This has to factor or at least be an asterix in any consideration of Brady and Bellichick.

Revelation, lmfao...

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you know, the real tragedy is that we only saw Elway vs Marino 3 times, Marino vs Montana twice, Elway vs Montana 5 times (mostly as a Chief).

We have been very lucky to see 16 games between these two.

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you know, the real tragedy is that we only saw Elway vs Marino 3 times, Marino vs Montana twice, Elway vs Montana 5 times (mostly as a Chief).

We have been very lucky to see 16 games between these two.

Very true.

And really, when you consider how close the two are in overall greatness, it's no surprising that Brady has an 11-5 record in the matchup when you consider a) he has Belichick, and b) he's had 2/3 of the regular season matchups on his home field (8 of the 12 Peyton/Brady RG games were in NE).

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Why do we have to rehash this so much? We all know deep down in our brain's heart the one true answer. Going into this game neutral parties weren't even talking about Manning and Brady they were talking about the talent differential, about how Mannings weapons were unstoppable, about how their defense was so much better than the Pats - the Broncos just got shat on by the world beaters Brandon Lafell, Julian Edelman and Danny 'White Chocolate' Amendola and three rookie olinemen.

They've been saying the same things for years, Manning has always had so much more talent around him and the Brady led Pats just win games. Nothing has changed.

Yeah, that Rob Gronkowski is a no talent ### clown amirite?

and where was gronk in the playoffs last year when brady was throwing to austin collie, and manning was throwing to demaryius, julius thomas, decker, and welker?

and Denver beat the crap out of NE that game, no?

so, we've established that if you surround manning with globetrotters he can beat brady's geberals by 10.

give brady a couple pro players and....uhm....

scoreboard

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Manning makes the WR, not the other way around. Demaryius is great, but otherwise he has elevated the play of Den WR.

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Just tossing this out there:

playoff records since 2004:

Brady: 9-8. 400-646, 4473 yards, 32 TD, 19 int. QB rating: 86.8. 5 AFCCG appearances, 2 SB appearances, 0 rings.

Manning: 9-8. 455-681, 5113 yards, 27 TD, 18 int. QB rating: 91.2. 3 AFCCG appearances, 3 SB appearances, 1 ring.

Brady got off to a much better start to his playoff career. That much is a fact. However, since Brady's last championship, these two have been more alike than different.

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It's just comical to me that people still think Manning is a better QB. It's been proven over and over again that Brady is indeed better. Who wins the big games? Brady. Who has more Super Bowl wins? Brady. Who has the most playoff losses as a QB? Manning. Who has the most playoff wins? Brady. You can sit here and argue about stats all day long, but at the end of the day it's pretty obvious the overall better QB is Brady. At least in Brady's two SB losses to the Giants he didn't fold and get crushed after the first play of the game. I just don't see how anyone can think Manning is a better QB when all he does is choke when it means the most.

By this awful logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino. :mellow:

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Interesting fact. Ignoring the game Brady went down on the first or 2nd drive and Cassell played most of the game.

Brady's teams score 28.3 ppg in his starts (199)

Manning's teams score 27.3 ppg in his starts (248)

Pretty funny how close they are there. I'd guess that 1 point discrepancy is negligible.

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Peyton injured, Colts go from 10-6 to 2-14.

Brady injured, Patriots go from 16-0 to 11-5.

Take it to the Cassel vs Painter thread.

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Did playoffs too.

Brady's teams average 25.1 ppg

Manning's teams average 22.5 ppg

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It's just comical to me that people still think Manning is a better QB. It's been proven over and over again that Brady is indeed better. Who wins the big games? Brady. Who has more Super Bowl wins? Brady. Who has the most playoff losses as a QB? Manning. Who has the most playoff wins? Brady. You can sit here and argue about stats all day long, but at the end of the day it's pretty obvious the overall better QB is Brady. At least in Brady's two SB losses to the Giants he didn't fold and get crushed after the first play of the game. I just don't see how anyone can think Manning is a better QB when all he does is choke when it means the most.

By this awful logic, Trent Dilfer was a better QB than Dan Marino. :mellow:

How so? Please explain why it's such an awful logic. So Manning has played 3 more years than Brady and has more TDs and more yards, but a worse playoff record, constantly chokes in big games, and only one SB ring and that somehow makes him better?? ...lol

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It's a pretty simple answer.

Brady, and it's not even close. Stats do matter, but wins matter more.

13 of Manning's regular season 75 losses were his rookie year on a terrible team. In fact, 32 of those losses were in his first 4 years on a Colts's team with a lousy defense (average of #22 in points allowed).

Since then he's had a winning percentage of 76.6% (141-43) compared to Brady's career of 77.5% (155-45) with vastly better defenses - the Patriots under Brady never ranked lower than #17 in points allowed. 10 times Brady had a top 10 defense - Peyton only 6 (5 with the Colts and 1 with the Broncos).

Brady is lucky as hell to have been drafted by Belichick's Patriots.

Some numbers:

Games under 24 points given up:

Manning - 141-18 (.887) (2 losses in first season on Colts would be .898)

Brady - 134-13 (.912)

Game of 24+ points given up:

Manning - 43-69 (.384) (11 losses in first season on Colts would be .425)

Brady - 39-41 (.488)

Times scoring more than 24+ points:

Manning - 166 of 272 (61%)

Brady - 139 of 228 (61%)

Average points allowed by team:

Manning - 21.5

Brady - 18.8

If the team does give up 24 points what is the average they normally give up:

Manning - 30.7 (6% more PPG given up when allowing 24+ points)

Brady - 28.9

Numbers show these two are very very close. When you consider after throwing out Manning's rookie season vs Brady coming into a playoff contender its just ever so slight of a margin.

Again I see both as pretty much equal, if I had a bad team I was trying to turn around I would take Manning in his prime. If I had a good team who just kept falling short I would take Brady in his prime. I feel that Bellichek plays a lot into Brady's success but since I dont know for sure you gotta think Brady just has better ability to deal with the spotlight of big games.

Just a quick note on the bolded... The Patriots in 2000 were 5-11. In fact, they had gone from a SB team in 96 with 11 wins to 10, 9, 8 then 5 wins in the subsequent years. Brady came into the end of the 2nd game when Bledsoe went down with a sheared artery, starting the season at 0-2. Brady came into a declining team and suddenly, the Patriots went from likely bottom of the AFC East to the SB. He did not come into a strong Playoff contender.

For the other numbers and comparisons, nice work. Interesting study of two great careers, and really how close they have been in performance over the years.

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Brady. Better when it counts. More rings. Supermodel wife. Only place Manning beats Brady is talent level of supporting cast.

I think the two are a wash but I am not sure you can not say Brady doesn't have a great surround cast over the years. They always seem to have a pretty good O-Line although not as good as Manning's but Brady had both Randy Moss and now Gronk who have put up some crazy numbers. Now this could be from Brady being so good or the fact that these are two of the most gifted athletes in the last 20 years.... Just look at the difference between what seems to be 100% Gronk and 50% Gronk....

Manning has never had a WR as great as Randy Moss.

Manning has never had a TE as great as Rob Gronkowski.

Brady has never had to play against a Belichick-coached team.

Brady has spent his entire career being coached by arguably the best head coach of the last 25 years.

Bottom line: it's all how you look at it. So many facts can be pointed out to turn the argument in favor of whichever guy you think is better. But, like I have said before, these are two of the best to ever play the position, and only a dimwit would say otherwise, so instead of tearing down one to prop up the other, we really should just enjoy the greatness of both before they both retire here in a few years. :cool:

I don't want to go too deep on these types of comparisons, but...

Manning has never played without multiple 1st round skill position players. Harrison/Wayne/Edge/Clark.. Now he's got DT/JT/Welker/Sanders(Decker)

And though Harrison wasn't quite as good as Moss, he was really close. Add in several years of Wayne as the #2, and Clark as your 3rd option.

Harrison career

1102/14580/128

Moss career

982/15292/156

and Reggie Wayne was/is no slouch, either.

1044/14000/81

Brady has had great players for portions of his career, but I have a hard time believing anyone who isn't trying to make a point would look at the offensive weapons available to Brady/Manning over the course of their careers and say Brady's had it better.

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Manning makes the WR, not the other way around. Demaryius is great, but otherwise he has elevated the play of Den WR.

Not sure you can make this claim about Manning and not have it apply equally, if not moreso, to Brady.

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Manning makes the WR, not the other way around. Demaryius is great, but otherwise he has elevated the play of Den WR.

Not sure you can make this claim about Manning and not have it apply equally, if not moreso, to Brady.

Ok let's play with this assumption (that the qb makes the wr) a bit

Manning has played with 3 HoF-level WRs in Harrison, Wayne, and DT (I think it's pretty safe to assume Harrison and Wayne would NOT have accumulated so many incredible stats if they were in just an average offense, and DT has improved his route running so much in the past 3 years)

Brady has played with 1 who would have been at that level even without Brady. Welker is really the only guy who really became great with Brady, and Edelman last year

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I disagree that quarterbacks make the receivers. People always point to the Collies, and Colstons of the NFL. They were talented players that were undervalued and just maybe having guys other talented guys around then helped open then up.

Who is going to worry about a young Randal Cobb when you have Jordy, Jennings and Jones flying around.

I do agree that quarterbacks make them better, Peyton makes DT, JT and company better. Rodgers makes Cobb, Jordy and company better. Brady makes Gronk, LaFell and company better, and the list goes on and on. Lets not act like if Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees or Luck switched spots that those receivers wouldn't still be killing it.

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Honest question, no fishing. From my understanding most people consider Montana a better quarterback then Marino. If fantasy football was as popular back then as it is now do you think it would a closer gap? Or maybe even favor Marino?

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I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

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When demaryius Thomas breaks a screen pass for 80 yards, at least some of that yardage belongs to Thomas. That's why Tebow beat the steelers.

When Brady was throwing to Lafell earlier this year, people said he was inaccurate and all done. But what he was really doing was throwing the ball low and away from the defender, so it wouldn't get intercepted. If you watch those early games, you see Lafell trying to turn uptown when he has his defender beat, and Brady short hopping it five yards behind him. Now, after a couple months of live game action, they look awesome together. But Brady still overthrows him on deep balls where he has Lafell open deep. Again, that's because he's trying to avoid getting picked. Lafell is focused on beating his defender, but he isn't enough of a hands guy to pluck an overthrown ball. So instead of two deep bombs against the Broncos, both of which were on his finger tips, Brady has two incomplete passes.

Say what you want about qbs making their receivers or vice versa, but the turnover Brady has had at qb compared with manning is unreal. And his numbers have suffered some while breaking the new guys in. But the fact that he's still able to lead a top offense, year in, year out, to the afc championship game literally over half the time, and to the superbowl one out of the years, that's just incredible. We may never see that repeated.

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I don't think QBs do make their receivers, I do believe they elevate them though.

The only weapon drafted by the Pats during the Brady/Belichick era that would have even good on another team I believe is Gronkowski, maybe Ridley but I doubt it.

Manning has had heaps.

Edited by Run It Up

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Brady has had early round talent positioned around him. The thing is they didn't pan out. They didn't fit.

If you look at the drafts and count picks made in the first 3 rounds that went to offense since Brady was a starter you would realize Brady has been given more talent on offense.

Few things: Manning had 2 great wr because they held on to them. They didn't have a plug and chug offense where they added and dropped wrs.

Don't forget about Faulk, Dillon, A.Smith and other talents that NE got in free agency or trade that did well.

NE had a dominate defense and strong running game when they won SBs

Look at NE offensive line and the list of 1st round picks that they protected Brady with. I guess that doesn't count for nothing when he gets to sit back in the

pocket untouched.

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I don't think QBs do make their receivers, I do believe they elevate them though.

The only weapon drafted by the Pats during the Brady/Belichick era that would have even good on another team I believe is Gronkowski.

Manning has had heaps.

That's funny. Take a deeper look. And just cause talent wasn't drafted (which it was) doesn't mean they didn't try adding pieces to the offense.

NE is ALL scheme and Brady runs that scheme well. Anyone who says else is selling something

Manning IS the scheme. In NE Bellichick is the scheme.

The WR doesn't matter. That offense is made of picks and rub routes, push offs (Gronk) and play action

Cassell had solid to good numbers in that scheme and he didn't start since HIGHSCHOOL!!

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I don't think QBs do make their receivers, I do believe they elevate them though.

The only weapon drafted by the Pats during the Brady/Belichick era that would have even good on another team I believe is Gronkowski.

Manning has had heaps.

That's funny. Take a deeper look. And just cause talent wasn't drafted (which it was) doesn't mean they didn't try adding pieces to the offense.

NE is ALL scheme and Brady runs that scheme well. Anyone who says else is selling something

Manning IS the scheme. In NE Bellichick is the scheme.

The WR doesn't matter. That offense is made of picks and rub routes, push offs (Gronk) and play action

Cassell had solid to good numbers in that scheme and he didn't start since HIGHSCHOOL!!

Lol wat?

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Watch Denver. Manning basically runs it himself. He controls the offense. If Manning is not at QB their offense and the scheme the coordinators have planned wont be as effective without him.

Watch NE. The scheme they have in place for their offense is their reason for success. Brady runs that system well, but so did Cassell. But NE system is plug and chug for the most part. Lose one player, plug one in. Because the SYSTEM is the reason for its success

Edited by Devine Intervention

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Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

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Cassel was a probowl QB for the chiefs. I'm not a Cassel fan but that assertion is complete garbage.

Peyton is his own offensive coordinator, great for him - what a spectacular talent. Doesn't make him read the defense any differently, doesn't make him throw the ball any differently, doesn't change the way he goes through his looks.

Brady has had an OC his entire career, I don't know how that has any impact on their QB performances?

To suggest that Brady doesn't do as much at the line as Manning is a ####### joke.

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When demaryius Thomas breaks a screen pass for 80 yards, at least some of that yardage belongs to Thomas. That's why Tebow beat the steelers.

...

to be historically accurate, it wasn't a screen pass that DT took 80 yards vs Pitt. It was a simple deep slant. It worked because the Steelers were in cover-0, selling out to stop Tebow's zone read. It wasn't a case of DT being a transcendantal talent as he hadn't developed into the player he is today.

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Manning has had better WR's for most of his career. That's not really debatable and that's why Manning has the stats.

Brady has had better coaching for his whole career. That's not really debatable and that's why Brady has the wins.

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Cassel was a probowl QB for the chiefs. I'm not a Cassel fan but that assertion is complete garbage.

Peyton is his own offensive coordinator, great for him - what a spectacular talent. Doesn't make him read the defense any differently, doesn't make him throw the ball any differently, doesn't change the way he goes through his looks.

Brady has had an OC his entire career, I don't know how that has any impact on their QB performances?

To suggest that Brady doesn't do as much at the line as Manning is a ####### joke.

it does make Peyton read the defense differently as he is deciding which play to run or whether to change the routes/protections. I think that having someone on the field who is better at making these changes is valuable. to state that Brady does just as much as Manning at the line shows someone who doesn't comprehend just how much Peyton does more than a regular QB

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Brady has put out some playoff duds the last few years but my opinion on this debate has not changed over past few seasons.

Manning is the best regular season QB of all time but Brady is the better all-time QB because while he may serve up some postseason duds he does not so frequently shrink in big games like Peyton. And even if you want to argue Peyton does not shrink in big playoff games, he certainly does not rise to the occasion either. No better stat sums up the difference in Peyton in the regular season vs postseason IMO than 4th quarter comeback wins. He's the all time regular season leader. He's tied for #23 in postseason with a grand total of one.

Neither is the best QB in the NFL or has been for several years and I can't help but wonder if every year the media gets into a frenzy over this matchup if Aaron Rodgers is not at least a little bit peeved.

It's a lot easier to make a 4th quarter comeback when you have a good defense.

No not really. You might have a point if he was leading go ahead drives that his defense was losing. That's not the case, not the case at all.

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Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

Manning has never had anyone near those levels of Gronk and Moss. Harrison/Wayne/Garcon/DT are all good WRs that Peyton has made look elite. Clark/Collie/Sanders/Stokley/Tamme etc are all basically average or below average guys who were lucky to play with Peyton

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Cassel was a probowl QB for the chiefs. I'm not a Cassel fan but that assertion is complete garbage.

Peyton is his own offensive coordinator, great for him - what a spectacular talent. Doesn't make him read the defense any differently, doesn't make him throw the ball any differently, doesn't change the way he goes through his looks.

Brady has had an OC his entire career, I don't know how that has any impact on their QB performances?

To suggest that Brady doesn't do as much at the line as Manning is a ####### joke.

it does make Peyton read the defense differently as he is deciding which play to run or whether to change the routes/protections. I think that having someone on the field who is better at making these changes is valuable. to state that Brady does just as much as Manning at the line shows someone who doesn't comprehend just how much Peyton does more than a regular QB

This is not a unique talent among QBs.

Edited by Run It Up

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Guest General Tso

I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

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Guest General Tso

Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

Manning has never had anyone near those levels of Gronk and Moss. Harrison/Wayne/Garcon/DT are all good WRs that Peyton has made look elite. Clark/Collie/Sanders/Stokley/Tamme etc are all basically average or below average guys who were lucky to play with Peyton

Ridiculous. Harrison and Wayne are Hall of Famers. Certainly a lot of that is due to Manning, but let's be real.... Manning had always had better offensive talent around him. Not sure I have ever heard someone argue otherwise. Edited by General Tso

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Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

Manning has never had anyone near those levels of Gronk and Moss. Harrison/Wayne/Garcon/DT are all good WRs that Peyton has made look elite. Clark/Collie/Sanders/Stokley/Tamme etc are all basically average or below average guys who were lucky to play with Peyton

I'd say Harrison, Wayne, DT, Moss, NE Welker, and Gronk are all elite. Clark, Sanders, Stokley, Hernandez, Branch, Brown, DEN Welker, Decker, Garcon, are all average-to-above-average.

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I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

LOL

Randy Moss before Tom Brady - 138 games, 676 rec, 10,700 yards, 101 TD, 77.54 ypg

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I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

It's almost as if Randy Moss didn't play football before he was a raider.

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Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

Manning has never had anyone near those levels of Gronk and Moss. Harrison/Wayne/Garcon/DT are all good WRs that Peyton has made look elite. Clark/Collie/Sanders/Stokley/Tamme etc are all basically average or below average guys who were lucky to play with Peyton

I'd say Harrison, Wayne, DT, Moss, NE Welker, and Gronk are all elite. Clark, Sanders, Stokley, Hernandez, Branch, Brown, DEN Welker, Decker, Garcon, are all average-to-above-average.

I wouldn't say Branch even the first time around was above average. The rest I agree with though.

Edited by Run It Up

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Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

Manning has never had anyone near those levels of Gronk and Moss. Harrison/Wayne/Garcon/DT are all good WRs that Peyton has made look elite. Clark/Collie/Sanders/Stokley/Tamme etc are all basically average or below average guys who were lucky to play with Peyton

I'd say Harrison, Wayne, DT, Moss, NE Welker, and Gronk are all elite. Clark, Sanders, Stokley, Hernandez, Branch, Brown, DEN Welker, Decker, Garcon, are all average-to-above-average.

I wouldn't say Branch even the first time around was above average. The rest I agree with though.

Well, he was traded for a 1st round pick so at least one NFL exec thought he was above average.

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To suggest that Brady would be as successful in a different system and different coach is a ####### joke.

Manning has had MULTIPLE coaching changes and 2 different teams. And he took them both to a superbowl.

he wouldn't be as successful without Belichick. I'm quite sure of that.

That doesn't mean he would be Trent Dilfer though - he would still be an elite QB, he just wouldn't have the all time winningest record.

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Gronk has played in 59 games. Moss played in 37 games with Brady. Brady has played in 202 games. Manning consistently had great targets to throw to. I don't see how anyone can make a compelling case that the receiving talent for Manning has been inferior to what Brady had to work with. In fact, I would say Manning had a pretty decent advantage over the years.

Manning has never had anyone near those levels of Gronk and Moss. Harrison/Wayne/Garcon/DT are all good WRs that Peyton has made look elite. Clark/Collie/Sanders/Stokley/Tamme etc are all basically average or below average guys who were lucky to play with Peyton

Ridiculous. Harrison and Wayne are Hall of Famers. Certainly a lot of that is due to Manning, but let's be real.... Manning had always had better offensive talent around him. Not sure I have ever heard someone argue otherwise.

Of course Manning made those guys. That is why Wayne and Garçon went out of the league shortly after Peyton left, Harrison never did a thing before Manning got there and DT was just another first round bust that even the great Tebow couldn't make look good before Manning got there.

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Guest General Tso

I think we can all agree that Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Rob Gronkowski, and Demaryius Thomas would all have been/will be great regardless of their qb.

However, it is not a coincidence that E Sanders already has his career high in yards thru 8 games with Manning as his qb. I think we can confidently say Eric Decker will look back at 2012 and 2013 as the 2 best years of his career. In his 1st 2 years, Julius Thomas was a no name with 1 total catch. Now he has 1100 yards 24 TD thru 1.5 years with Manning. Brandon Stokely had a 1000 yd, 10 TD season. Dallas Clark had a 1100 yard, 10 TD season.

Randy Moss before and after Tom Brady:

2006 - 13 games. 42 rec. 553 yds. 3 TD's. 42.5 ypg

2007 - 16 games. 98 rec. 1,493 yds. 23 TD's. 93.3 ypg

LOL

Randy Moss before Tom Brady - 138 games, 676 rec, 10,700 yards, 101 TD, 77.54 ypg

Yeah, and how was is career progressing? In the 3 years before coming to New England you know what Moss's best year was? A whopping 60 receptions. In the 4 years prior his TD numbers were progressing as follows - 17, 13, 8, 3.

I am refuting the notion that Moss was at the top of his game when Brady got ahold of him. Nothing could be further from the truth. Moss was not a young stud. He was entering his 10th season and most pundits thought he was cooked. Brady and Belichik resurrected him.

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