Didn't Jackson have a 60+ yard TD in each of Kolb's 2 starts. Also, if Kolb locks into guys more than McNabb, wouldn't it make sense that Jackson would be one of those guys. I think a case could be made that Kolb would actually increase Jackson's value. His accuracy could increase the vast the vast RAC potential that both Jackson and Maclin have. After all, its not like all 60 yard TD's have to be 60 yard passes.As for Kolb, I kinda view him and Leinart the same way. Maybe a slight edge to Leinart, but I think they are both very good high upside stashes, and must-haves if you have McNabb/Warner. If either were to become a full-time starter, I think they'd be top-15 QB's with upside.
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Dynasty Rankings (10 Viewers)
- Thread starter Fear & Loathing
- Start date
MountainMan0726
Footballguy
The trade that I posted earlier has reached it's final, simplified form. 10 Team Dynasty League.
MY LeSean McCoy
for
HIS Sidney Rice
Given my team's makeup (in sig), does it make sense to deal from a position of 6 strong dynasty RB's to backfill 3 strong WR's? I believe that Rice is the real deal and could be a contributor for my team sooner than McCoy, who would have to leapfrog some talent. McCoy could emerge as the next Westbrook, but I like Rice's work ethic (offseason training with Fitz and Chris Carter), size, and production.
Thoughts?
MY LeSean McCoy
for
HIS Sidney Rice
Given my team's makeup (in sig), does it make sense to deal from a position of 6 strong dynasty RB's to backfill 3 strong WR's? I believe that Rice is the real deal and could be a contributor for my team sooner than McCoy, who would have to leapfrog some talent. McCoy could emerge as the next Westbrook, but I like Rice's work ethic (offseason training with Fitz and Chris Carter), size, and production.
Thoughts?
FUBAR
Footballguy
Even without your strength at RB I'd do that deal. I like McCoy enough but Rice is proving to be a stud.
SSOG
Moderator
Campbell- I love him as a buy low. Right now, he's probably going for peanuts. I don't think he's great, but I do believe that he's an NFL-caliber QB. I'm really looking forward to seeing him somewhere else next year- he could be the next Jake Plummer. I wouldn't break the bank to bring him in, but if I could trade a purely speculative upside guy for him, I'd do that in a heartbeat.McFadden- *IF* you believed in McFadden when he was coming into the league, it's far too early to give up on him. He was a high draft pick, and while he's looked terrible this year, he averaged 4.4 ypc last year (best on the team). He's actually only had as many carries during his entire career as Knowshon Moreno. If you thought he was absolute junk coming out, then feel free to continue thinking he's absolute junk... but if you believed in him once, then don't bury him yet.Shonn Greene- I suspect that at least 3 of the 4 RBs you mentioned will wind up being better prospects this year than Greene was last year.
Do it. Rice is a legit talent, while McCoy hasn't really shown anything special yet.
EBF
Footballguy
I've been a McFadden "hater" from the start and he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong. He hasn't made the big plays he was supposed to make and he hasn't been able to overcome Fargas and Bush. From what I've seen he's a one-dimensional player whose game doesn't fit the NFL. He's very fast in a straight line, but his elusiveness is poor for a speed back and he lacks any semblance of power. Is it health? Is it the lack of opportunity? Certainly we saw Mendenhall rise from the ashes after most everyone was willing to write him off as a bust. Can McFadden do the same? I doubt it. Sometimes a bust is a bust. I would say sell him, but what are you going to get in return at this point? His trade value is in the toilet. Unless you can find an optimistic buyer, hold him and hope that he starts showing something. Then consider making a move.
I like Greene. Do I like him as much as Mathews, Spiller, Best, etc? Probably not. Those guys are probably going to be first round NFL draft picks. I don't think I would trade any of them for Greene, but I do think he's worth a mid-late first round rookie pick in most dynasty leagues. I've always felt that he has a chance to become a 1000+ yard NFL workhorse in the mold of Rudi Johnson or Frank Gore. He hasn't played much this season, but that's no reason to bump him down your board. I don't believe in upgrading or downgrading players who aren't getting any opportunities. Greene remains a promising player and a good developmental RB for your bench in dynasty leagues. FWIW I really like how he looked against Oakland:http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlig...eene-highlights
He's not the slow plodder some people made him out to be this past offseason.
OnThInIcE911
Footballguy
What? I am pretty sure you are talking out of your ### here. I think there is probably closer to a 5% chance he starts for Philly next year. Henne on the other hand has a decent shot at getting some weapon upgrades in the offseason(bowe/boldin come to mind) and has performed pretty well considering his best reciever is Ted Ginn.
TheWick
Footballguy
Dan Henning did get Delhomme to 29 and 24 TD seasons while he was in Carolina...with the right talent around him I could see Henne being fantasy relevant but they are going to have to ditch this wildcat crap
the eagles didn't draft kevin kolb to be a career backup. hell, had he played better in baltimore last year, he would be the starting QB NOW.the game against the saints was the first time in his career, he had a week of practice with the 1s leading up to a game. and he was fine. as for talking out of my ###, i'm here in philly and i hear things all the time. if you don't want to believe me, that's ok. someone in your league will have kolb and you won't. mcnabb's contract makes it a good offseason to move him. i'll look for details on this later tonight when i get home from work.
SSOG
Moderator
Kolb by a country mile.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Henne has a big arm and has been very limited by circumstance. No way is Kolb a better prospect than Henne.mambomambo
Footballguy
what about Michael Vick? worth a pick up in dynasty?
BigJim®
Footballguy
If you mean FA pick-up, absolutely. I'd even consider him a buy low if you mean trade. Philly (pretty much) removed the cloud of PR scrutiny by rostering him this year, and Vick has above average prospects to get a real job next season.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Disagree on this. McCoy seems to have a perfect situation going forward. I also question the 'hasn't shown he's special' quip. He's got 734 total yards as a rookie already, in limited action. I'd say he gave his goal line prospects a big leg up with that 2-pt effort last weeek (Eldra Buckley stands in his way?). His value should skyrocket by end of season. Rice OTOH is a great dynasty sell high IMHO. Without Favre his skills will be there but expect his production to decline significantly. It could be playing with a rookie who is learning the ropes, or the same old journeyman-type vet Childress has a habit of setting his sights on. I love Rice, but I don't see him remaining a top 10 WR producer, and getting a bona fide RB stud in making is a big value for him in dynasty.
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thriftyrocker
Footballguy
There are going to be so many rookie QBs next year, he's bound to get signed as a stopgap/placeholder and start most of year 1. Clearly he is not Kurt Warner and will not win a battle against the future of the franchise. See Byron Leftwich, Daunte Culpepper. The only place I can see him going and having decent value is Oakland. Aside from Jamarcus, Oakland's MO is getting guys like Campbell (Collins, Brooks, Gannon). In that case, he'd probably have 2 or 3 years of being a solid #2 fantasy QB. If that doesn't happen, I'd much rather have the 3rd round pick it would take to get him and gamble on Lefevour or one of the other lesser known rookie QBs.
I think he has a lot in common with Ray Rice 2008. You know the Jets are going to run a lot and the lead RB will be the center of the offense. You know he is a near perfect replacement for TJones in that offense. You know TJ has had a couple top 10 years in a row even with Leon Washington around. There is some reason to trust Ryan and the Jets FO that if he is their guy, he should pan out. Hard to give up the #4 or #5 pick for him, but he's probably worth it.
MountainMan0726
Footballguy
Does your opinion hold true when you consider my roster being 6 deep at RB and 3 deep at WR? Does the value of McCoy in your mind outweigh Rice to the point of not balancing out a dynasty lineup? That's the factor I'm considering, as I def. value McCoy enough to have gone out and acquired him in the first place. I see your points on both players, and this has been extremely frustrating to decide upon. I think McCoy will be great, but will he be better long term than all of CJ/MJD/SJAX/Knowshon/JStew? Sidney Rice can help my lineup this Sunday and long term. And as far as the QB situation, I like the fact that Rice is 6'4'' and can outjump anyone on the field, and will rarely draw double coverage with AP around. Just toss it up to the big man.
SSOG
Moderator
Yes, but barely. I'm in a very deep league (271 offensive players rostered- not kickers, not defenses, honest-to-goodness offensive players). I added Moore as a speculative stash earlier in the season. Of course, since then, I've cut him for Brohm, and I've cut Brohm for Dixon. Really, his value is right in line with both of those guys, imo. I'm just rostering whichever one I think will get action the soonest, because the sooner he gets action, the sooner I can decide whether I want to hold him, move him, or cut him. He's a fringe "why the heck not" kind of player.
Sure. I think Vick is a lot more likely to be a 2+ year starter in the league than Matt Moore, Brian Brohm, Dennis Dixon, etc.
Being in the perfect situation going forward isn't the same thing as "showing something special". Averaging 4.3 yards per carry on a team that runs for 4.6 yards per carry isn't the same thing as "showing something special". Averaging 7.6 yards per reception isn't "showing something special". It's not to say that LeSean McCoy is Joseph Addai or anything- he's looked very serviceable so far. He just hasn't looked special so far.As for Sidney Rice... he's a legit talent. A special talent. If his QB next year is Favre, he'll produce. If his QB next year is Sage Rosenfels, he'll produce. If his QB next year is Jason Campbell, he'll produce. If his QB next year is Tavaris Jackson... he won't produce as much, but when Tavaris gets replaced a year later, he'll produce again. Rice is a 23 year old highly drafted WR who was a fantastic prospect coming out of college, and who is currently a top 10 fantasy WR despite a very slow start to the season. If one of these two players is a bona fide stud in the making, it's Rice, not McCoy.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
I think McNabb stays as long as Reid wants him and I don't think his contract will matter. The Eagles never seem to have cap issues so they don't have to cut McNabb unless he isn't performing. It's pretty obvious to me that Reid thinks McNabb gives him their best chance to win and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I'm not in Philly, but most of the time there is mention of McNabb leaving, it is nothing but media speculation.
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
How can you write this so definitively? The only time that Rice has produced so far, in his career, is when he has played with Favre at QB. Throughout his long career, Favre has made studs out of moderately talented WRs. Help me understand why Rice is a stud. With a bit more backup than "Rice is a 23 year old highly drafted WR" or "he's a legit talent"
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Also, a fitting description for JaMarcus Russell. I've given Henne mixed reviews so far this season. He's thrown some wretched picks, has a poor YPA, poor completion percentage, and takes too many sacks. But he also has the nice arm, leadership skills, and has led his team to a better record than Pennington did. My overall impression is that he's been underwhelming outside of the MNF upset against the Jets.
I can't see how you can say there's "no way" that Kolb is a better prospect than Henne when we've seen so little of both -- and what we've seen out of Henne is far from convincing.
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Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
Henne's still getting his feet wet but those skills - arm, leadership, intangibles, are exactly why I think he can be a good NFL QB. Never an elite player, but solid. I'm not quite sure why I see the comparison but I can see Henne having a career with success similar to Matt Hasselbeck. A few pro-bowls, solid starter for 10 years or so but never reach the next level. He'll have some nice seasons with a decent team around him.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
I have seen enough glimpses to think Henne has a chance to be a solid QB, but obviously I need to see more. It can be hard to judge a QB who has no real weapons at WR. He certainly has the physical tools to be a good one.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Now, you know a lot more about Kolb than I do. But the "looking bad vs. the Saints" doesn't help your argument. Tom Brady's stat line vs. the Saints from last Monday: 21/36, 237 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs, 55.0 passer rating.While Kolb threw three INTs vs. the Saints, let's compare his game to more accomplished QBs and how they faired vs. the Saints this year:Kevin Kolb - 31/51, 391 yards, 2 TDs, 3 INTsMatt Ryan, 19/42, 289 yards, 1 TD, 3 INTsMatthew Stafford, 16/37, 205 yards, 0 TDs, 3 INTsEli Manning - 14/31, 178 yards, 1 TD, 1 INTMark Sanchez - 14/27, 138 yards, 0 TDs, 3 INTsTranslation: Kolb threw for more yards and more TDs than every QB on that list.SSOG said:I'm not sold on Kolb, but that's just a function of the fact that I wasn't sold on Kolb before the season, and he hasn't done anything this season to change my mind. Yes, yes, I know he threw for fifty bazillion yards and set like 80 NFL records for a guy making his first two starts, but context is everything. Kolb was TERRIBLE against the Saints, but racked up a boatload of yardage in garbage time after his team was already down by 4 scores. And a lot of that yardage was simply short tosses to DeSean that Jackson beast-moded into huge gains. That's not a reflection on Kolb. His second game was better, but at the end of the day... it's the Kansas City Chiefs. 327 yards against the Chiefs isn't going to cause me to radically change my thinking on a guy.He looked alright, but I watched the entire Saints/Eagles game and I didn't see anything from him that made me sit up and take notice.jdoggydogg said:I don't own Kolb. And the rumors of McNabb leaving are just that: rumors. But it's worth discussing in a Dynasty thread even if McNabb is there next year. Why don't you think Kolb won't be a good QB?thevidon said:Umm - what leads you to think Mcnabb will be gone next year? Was it his totally unnecessary mid-season pay raise? Andy Reid's unbelievable man love for him?jdoggydogg said:I don't think Kolb is going to be a good starting QB, but I do like him as a backup.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
I wouldn't trade McCoy for Rice. Hear me out: there are only a handful of RBs that will start for an NFL team. Whereas a really good offense could have two or three WRs that can start for your fantasy team. So while I think Rice is more talented than McCoy, I think McCoy is more valuable just given his position and situation.SSOG said:
Whiplash Inc.
Footballguy
And you have to factor in the QB situation with Rice, IMO.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
I don't think Brian Westbrook is done in Philly. There, I said it. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
It wouldn't surprise me at all. That obviously hurts McCoy's immediate value. But I can't help but think it'll make McCoy a better RB eventually because he'd be tutored by one of the great PPR RBs in NFL history.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
As a big Westbrook fan, I hope he retires. It is clouding my judgment on whether to drop him or not in a shallow league. It's interesting that the injury that may end his career is not another knee injury but concussions. It keeps some hope that he can play again at a high level. But given how the Eagles used him earlier this year, how much value can he have? It gave the appearance they were protecting him for a playoff run even before the head injuries happened.He turns into Felix Jones or Leon Washington.
Michael Vicks salary is peanuts this year.....IIRC, it jumps to 5.1 mil next year.Not sure Philly's salary cap, Heckert seems to do a good job with it, especially with a penchant for locking players up early.............however, I can't see Vick backing mcnabb up next year? Buf/Wash would be ideal IMO for vick.mambomambo said:
BigJim®
Footballguy
This may not be an opinion that is shared by many, but in my dynasty league I give very little consideration to depth and needs when contemplating trades. My goal is the stockpiling of commodities that can be leveraged. Now, I won't do something stupid to leave me short if I'm in the middle of a playoff hunt, but as a general approach I look only at player value and, like investing in the stock market, I do my best to time my buying and selling. I don't think you can go wrong in the long run because if you hold valuable commodities, you can always leverage them to address needs that do arise. I own both Rice and McCoy in my dynasty league, so I'm not biased at all, but the asking price (for me) would be a lot higher for McCoy than for Rice. RBs just carry a lot of value in my dynasty league. Also keep in mind a decision to pass on this deal now is not a decision never to acquire Rice, as long as you stay on good terms with his owner. As a prospector, I have a high degree of confidence that Rice will be an obtainable player when Favre goes through his annual retirement decision. His owner will be a lot more wary than he is right now, and the exchange value will will reflect that.MountainMan0726 said:
IIRC, Theres a clause in Westy's contract, that he can be cut in 2010 with minimal cap hit for the Eagles.He's due to make around 7 million next year. With McCoy emerging, he may be a salry cap casualty?
Factor in repeated concussions, there's just too much stacked against him.
Those escalators below will most like be reduced with missed playing time, not sure what the escalators are though?
The Philadelphia Inquirer, citing a source close to the negotiations, said Westbrook would be paid $13 million in the first two seasons guaranteed, and then make $21 million over the next three seasons, with escalators based on playoff appearances and individual performance.
http://sport.moldova.org/news/eagles-give-...140870-eng.html
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
What would stop the Eagles from bringing him back on a renegotiated deal?
BigJim®
Footballguy
Fair enough. Perhaps I was over the top on the other side of the spectrum. However, the fact is Kolb is in a bad spot, and I don't see him with starter potential in Philadelphia in the next couple years. His odds of being signed by another team to be their starter seems bleak, since he's not yet an experienced guy teams go after when looking to find a starter; he'd be a huge gamble. I certainly could be wrong on that. OTOH, I do believe Henne is the future in Miami, and I also believe he'll get more weapons as the team rebuilds. Could also be wrong on that, but I have Henne on a completely different tier than Kolb.Fear & Loathing said:
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
As Henne shows some development my guess is that they would let him air it out a little more. Also I'd expect the Dolphins to add at least a decent WR if not a true playmaker this offseason. Henne has showed me that he has what it takes to be a better than average QB in this league with a little more seasoning.bweiser said:
OnThInIcE911
Footballguy
I don't think anyone is saying Henne is a much better prospect than Kolb from an NFL perspective because they are probably pretty close.
However from a Fantasy perspective if you only have 1 open slot to choose between Kolb or Henne you would have to be crazy to go with Kolb.
Henne is the future in Miami and is much more likely to be fantasy relevant any time soon than Kolb. Anyone banking on Kolb taking over for Mcnabb soon are out of their minds. Mcnabb is a very productive tier 2 QB in the NFL. He has taken the Eagles to 4 AFC championship games and a SB. He is a winner and unless HE decides he wants out of philly he will be welcomed there as long as he performs(which he is doing this season). The only real chance Kolb has of being relevant soon is by way of trade or FA and going to another team. and at that point who is to say his weapons will be better than what Henne has? What if he goes to the Raiders?
Bottom line is Henne>>>Kolb from a Dynasty perspective. If you can only stash one the smart money is on Henne.
However from a Fantasy perspective if you only have 1 open slot to choose between Kolb or Henne you would have to be crazy to go with Kolb.
Henne is the future in Miami and is much more likely to be fantasy relevant any time soon than Kolb. Anyone banking on Kolb taking over for Mcnabb soon are out of their minds. Mcnabb is a very productive tier 2 QB in the NFL. He has taken the Eagles to 4 AFC championship games and a SB. He is a winner and unless HE decides he wants out of philly he will be welcomed there as long as he performs(which he is doing this season). The only real chance Kolb has of being relevant soon is by way of trade or FA and going to another team. and at that point who is to say his weapons will be better than what Henne has? What if he goes to the Raiders?
Bottom line is Henne>>>Kolb from a Dynasty perspective. If you can only stash one the smart money is on Henne.
I like Brian Hartline and think he could develop into a decent/dependable #2 receiverDolphins would do well to take Dez Bryant in the first, be a true #1 stud.. or perhaps Demaryius Thomas and let him develop, you know this kid has the physical tools and is a good blocking receiver. Depending on how high his draft stock climbs, he could still be had in the second round.A pick up like this could complete the offense.
McNabb has to deal with this every off-season.. philly fans whine and want a QB, then McNabb comes in, plays well.. haters be quiet, and then if they don't win the superbowl they complain again.McNabb's 33 years old, he'll be around for another 2-3 years at the least.
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Only BW, if he decided against it
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
That's a good point. Rice's value takes a hit if / when Favre retires unless Minn has a suitable replacement.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
I bet Westbrook and the Eagles renegotiate at a lower salary.
SSOG
Moderator
I watched a lot of Rice in college, and every time I saw him I thought "this guy is really good, and he's going to be awesome in the pros". Now that he's actually being awesome in the pros, I tend to think that my evaluation was on the money, and that Rice is really good.It's seriously disingenuous to say that the only time that Rice has been good is with Favre. It's true, but disingenuous. Rice is 23 years old. He was injured in both of his first two seasons, and playing with TJax, to boot. We're really holding it against him that he didn't dominate as an injured 21 year old with Tarvaris tossing him the ball? Most of the time when a 3rd year WR plays well everyone screams "3rd year breakout", but somehow Rice is a product of Favre? And what moderately talented WRs has Favre made studs? Jennings, Driver, and Walker were all legit talents- as evidenced by the fact that they were studs even without Favre. Those are the only three WRs that played with Favre that have finished in the fantasy top 20 since 2002, and like I said, they were all just as good without Favre as they were with him. Are we really discounting Sidney Rice because Bill Schroeder was fantasy WR20 in 2001 and Antonio Freeman was fantasy WR18 in 2000? The last time Brett Favre made a mediocre WR into a "stud" was 1998. That's over a decade ago, and Favre has played with BOATLOADS of mediocre WRs since then without turning any of them into studs.Also, let's put Sidney Rice's statistics into perspective. They aren't "really good", they're BEST IN THE NFL BY A HUGE MARGIN. Rice is averaging 12.5 yards PER TARGET. Not only does his 17.2 yards per reception rank 8th in the NFL, but he's catching a mind-boggling 72% of his targets. To add some perspective- Welker's catching 78%, but Welker's only averaging 10.4 yards per reception.Will Rice's value take a hit when Favre retires? Maybe, maybe not- Driver and Jennings both got better after Favre left. Even if it does, though... he's 23. He has 13 years left in his career. Unless you think that TJax is going to be around for 13 more years, it's a very minor concern. And if TJax is around for 13 more years, then I guarantee you that it's because TJax became a quality starter and Sidney still got his.Michael Fox said:
So you're saying you'd upgrade Kolb because he looked bad against the Saints?I'm not ever going to upgrade a player after looking bad, regardless of how bad everyone else has looked against the unit in question. I understand mitigating circumstances and I certainly wouldn't move him DOWN in my estimation... but if I wasn't a big Kolb fan in the first place (and I wasn't), then I'm not about to say "Oh man, Kolb looked terrible last night, but not nearly as terrible as the great Eli Manning and a pair of rookies looked against the same defense, so I'm moving him on up in my rankings!".Besides, looking better than Eli Manning (who, as I've said several times in this thread, is probably the worst QB in the league with any job security) isn't that impressive a feat. Looking better than Sanchez (who has been wretched since week 1) and Stafford (who has been borderline awful and plays for the Lions) isn't, either. That leaves Ryan and Brady. Kolb threw for more yards than either, but he also threw significantly more passes than either (that 51 pass attempts really jumps off the page at me), and a lot of that yardage was just Desean Jackson being Desean Jackson (wasn't that the week where Jackson caught a 6 yard pass over the middle and turned it into an 80 yard gain?).
RBs are more valuable than WRs in redraft leagues. Not so in dynasty leagues, where the WR's added longevity closes the gap between the two positions. In fact, I currently have more WRs ranked as 1st round or 2nd round talents than I do RBs.
I think this is dramatically overrated. If learning from the best ever was so valuable, why do the best ever never become coaches? Generally, you learn more from mediocre players who have little physical talent because they're very conscious of what it takes to succeed. If you asked Randy Moss how to be a great NFL WR, he probably couldn't offer much beyond "well, you run faster and jump higher than the other guys", which isn't really helpful to a young rookie.Brett Favre once said that the whole "mentoring" aspect of playing QB was wildly overblown by the media, and that he never took Rodgers under his wing because that wasn't his job. Players were paid to play and coaches were paid to coach, and coaches were better at coaching than players, anyway.
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
You don't think Brett was just a little bit bitter about the whole situation?
mcintyre1
Footballguy
Not that anyone will really care, but you guys were right that my Brees, R. Williams, P. Thomas, Ocho, D.Jax team wasn't as bad I thought it was. I'm currently sitting at 8-4 with the best record in the league.
I did acquire McFadden, but I haven't dared start him yet. I think I'm OK with trading a late 1st in a draft I don't particularly like for the #1 overall pick in the draft a couple of years ago.
With that out of the way, does R. Williams have dynasty value? The guy is old, but is running like he hasn't in years. Sell high? Anyone fielded any offers for him in dynasty leagues?
I did acquire McFadden, but I haven't dared start him yet. I think I'm OK with trading a late 1st in a draft I don't particularly like for the #1 overall pick in the draft a couple of years ago.
With that out of the way, does R. Williams have dynasty value? The guy is old, but is running like he hasn't in years. Sell high? Anyone fielded any offers for him in dynasty leagues?
thriftyrocker
Footballguy
Jump back about 4 pages for a lot of discussion on whether to trade Shonn Greene for him. His value falls a lot when the season is over, of course.
PranksterJD
Footballguy
There are some amazing stats in here. However, I can't seem to shake the "Eddie Royal" emotion that I keep getting from Rice. Don't get me wrong... I think Eddie's a fine player, but we've seen how circumstances change things dramatically, and even though he's got talent I should have listened to my gut and sold this past offseason. I could have gotten someone who'd put up points this year and still bought Royal back cheap.Favre-leaving-Minnesota definitely has a Cutler-leaving-Denver feel to it, and while Sidney might turn out monster numbers again in 2012 or something, I'm not sure I want to risk the years where he's suffering with Tarvaris or whoever else Minnesota throws in there.To use another guy i know you like as an example.... there feels like a significant Lee Evans risk here. Sure, the talent's all there, but its not enough to overcome abysmal QB play. I'm not sure Rice's talent is either, and Favre's gotta go sometime. Maybe The Driver argument is valid and Tarvaris is closer to Aaron Rodgers than he is to Kyle Orton.... but he hasn't shown me anything to make me believe it.In any event... I'm not saying Rice is an absolute sell... but for whatever reason my mind keeps making that connection. Maybe its because I missed the boat on Royal and I'm looking for redemption.
SSOG
Moderator
Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't change the fact that he's right. Players play, coaches coach. It's a little silly to think that a player would be better at coaching than a position coach, especially when history has shown how few great (or even moderately good) players wind up becoming quality coaches after their career is over.
Rice is a lot more talented than Royal. He's also a different type of player than Royal. He's a different type of player than Evans, too. He's much bigger, more physical, and better at "attacking the ball". He's a huge target with great leaping skills. He's the kind of guy who becomes a bad QB's best friend.Besides, you're talking as if it's a sure thing that Favre is gone next year and Jackson is in. Favre signed a 2-year deal, so why are we so sure he's gone? And remember Sage Rosenfels? He's still signed for a long time, and he's plenty good enough to take advantage of Rice (Andre Johnson and Owen Daniels did just fine with him under center). What about option B: the journeyman vet. Minnesota might sign Jason Campbell instead, in which case Rice will be just fine (Campbell has done well enough with Santana Moss over the years). Minnesota's in win-now mode. Kyle Orton is a FA, as well, and he seems to be able to get the ball to Brandon Marshall well enough. I guarantee you that whoever is lining up under center in Minny next season will be a capable enough QB to take advantage of Sidney Rice.There are some amazing stats in here. However, I can't seem to shake the "Eddie Royal" emotion that I keep getting from Rice. Don't get me wrong... I think Eddie's a fine player, but we've seen how circumstances change things dramatically, and even though he's got talent I should have listened to my gut and sold this past offseason. I could have gotten someone who'd put up points this year and still bought Royal back cheap.Favre-leaving-Minnesota definitely has a Cutler-leaving-Denver feel to it, and while Sidney might turn out monster numbers again in 2012 or something, I'm not sure I want to risk the years where he's suffering with Tarvaris or whoever else Minnesota throws in there.To use another guy i know you like as an example.... there feels like a significant Lee Evans risk here. Sure, the talent's all there, but its not enough to overcome abysmal QB play. I'm not sure Rice's talent is either, and Favre's gotta go sometime. Maybe The Driver argument is valid and Tarvaris is closer to Aaron Rodgers than he is to Kyle Orton.... but he hasn't shown me anything to make me believe it.In any event... I'm not saying Rice is an absolute sell... but for whatever reason my mind keeps making that connection. Maybe its because I missed the boat on Royal and I'm looking for redemption.
BigJim®
Footballguy
You are using too much common sense here IMHO. Thankfully, most people in here aren't trading with SSOG, but with an opponent who is susceptible to media, FF rags, and human fear. I think *most* overreact to short-term fear and circumstance, and frankly dynasty rankings reflect this. Perception changes on a weekly basis around these parts, and in fact FBG and F&L rankings show that. Rice's value will fall off the proverbial cliff for most FFers if TJax is rumored as the next QB, or if some Brad Johnson/Gus Frerotte type is brought in. The average Joe won't think "Well, but that's only 1-2 years of this player's career." If there are no willing buyers for that type of player, his value is what it is, and trust me most rankings will overreact. That's when this guy acquires Rice for the 13-year career reason you've mentioned; not now. There is always the risk Favre announces a 2010 return asap and none of that matters... but would Rice's value increase in that event or stay static? And just to say again, I love Rice, but if I was a buyer I would wait until after the season to buy.
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MountainMan0726
Footballguy
Thanks for all the McCoy/Rice input. The trade went down, and I acquired Rice. I really like my Dynasty team balance now (in sig).
Also, this frees me up for the 2010 draft - I can take the best player on the board, whereas before I was locked into a WR pick and fearing that Bryant, Benn, or LaFell wouldn't fall to me.
Great points and subpoints - I was 50/50 and still am. This will be an interesting trade to track for years to come.
Also, this frees me up for the 2010 draft - I can take the best player on the board, whereas before I was locked into a WR pick and fearing that Bryant, Benn, or LaFell wouldn't fall to me.
Great points and subpoints - I was 50/50 and still am. This will be an interesting trade to track for years to come.
