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Moe Green

Philip Rivers Is Terrible

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

Would rather have Carr, Joey, or even Grossman rather than She-li......
Combined, those losers have as many wins as starters this year as Eli, and 5 more losses. Whatever you say because you really are showing a lack of football knowledge with that ridiculous statement.
I doubt you find any Charger fan that would take She-Li back.......you apparently don't know much about the Chargers with that ridiculous comment.

Rivers has been bad this year, but there is a lot to the poor line play, poor offense calling, and horrible horrible receiving corps....

Fouts, I disagree. If I am a SD fan, I would much rather have Eli than Rivers. The Giants have a VERY poor pass blocking line and Eli gets hurried and battered. they do have a good run blocking line, but now think of the weapons at each of their disposal. Just having LT should make the case. Outside of that you really have only 3 guys worth taling about in Plax, Shockey and Gates. But there is NO question I take Gates and LT over Shockey (always hurt) and Plax. The thing that has really surprised me is how weak Rivers arm is. He looks like Pennington when he throws.
Are you? My point was that Eli and the Chargers will always have a link and a negative one at that. Based on his behavior, I don't like the guy. Most Charger fans don't like him. I'd go with any other QB (better or worse) then She-li.....would be curious to see what MT and Gunz thought....
You see I think you have it backwards; if I am a SD fan (I have LT2 in all my leagues so I am a fan- sort of) I love what Manning did because that was a very lopsided trade that put SD on the map. Of course, that was assuming that Rivers was close to Eli and honestly I do not think he is at this point. Overall, even with Rivers being a below average QB and Eli being above average the trade was still good though as you got Merriman and another draft pick. Edited by Liquid Tension

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

Would rather have Carr, Joey, or even Grossman rather than She-li......
Combined, those losers have as many wins as starters this year as Eli, and 5 more losses. Whatever you say because you really are showing a lack of football knowledge with that ridiculous statement.
I doubt you find any Charger fan that would take She-Li back.......you apparently don't know much about the Chargers with that ridiculous comment.

Rivers has been bad this year, but there is a lot to the poor line play, poor offense calling, and horrible horrible receiving corps....

Fouts, I disagree. If I am a SD fan, I woudl much rather have Eli than Rivers. The Giants have a VERY poor pass blocking line and Eli gets hurried and battered. they do have a good run blocking line, but now think of the weapons at each of their disposal. Just having LT should make the case. Outside of that you really have only 3 guys worth taling about in Plax, Shockey and Gates. But there is NO question I take Gates and LT over Shockey (always hurt) and Plax. The thing that has really surprised me is how weak Rivers arm is. He looks like Pennington when he throws.
Are you? My point was that Eli and the Chargers will always have a link and a negative one at that. Based on his behavior, I don't like the guy. Most Charger fans don't like him. I'd go with any other QB (better or worse) then She-li.....would be curious to see what MT and Gunz thought....
I would rather have Rivers. A couple subpar games with the OL and WRs struggling does not mean I'm ready to ignore River's Pro Bowl performance and 14-3 record last year. NE and Chicago are excellent defensively, and Rivers played well against GB. So really, yesterday was the first poor game I've seen from Philip when he really could have made a difference. And in his defense, VJax dropped that TD that was a perfect strike, and Rivers was hit as soon as the ball was thrown on that long wobbly duck that was picked off. Not sure who was at fault on the INT that went right by LT's head when he wasn't looking.

River's career record as a starter is now 15-6.

I really have a hard time taking analysis seriously when record is brought up as a reason for a QB to be better. If Marino in his prime were on the Dolphins right now do you think there is any chance they would be even 2-2? A QB needs a FULL TEAM around him to be successful as teh QB only makes up a small percentage of a teams success.

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I've never been a River fan. I did eat my crow last year though, up until the *Patriot game.He has some real problems in his reading and throwing deep after the snap. No doubt about. (At least no doubts for me)And his leadership value seems to be taking some serious blows currently. ugh Not who I want at QB. He cant still improve though.

Wow. Rivers' accuracy, ability to make the correct reads, and his leadership are widely considered his strongest attributes. Amazing how perception changes after a couple of subpar games. I repeat: Rivers is 15-6 as an NFL starter. His losses are: NE (2), Balt, GB, KC (2). Yesterday was his first regular season home loss.
He hasn't looked great since about week 14 last year. And this year he's looked awful except for flashes in the GB game. He's regressing, sharply. If you can't admit that, you're WAAAAAYYYYY more of a homer than I thought.
"flashes" in the GB game? His QB rating was like 116, he hit his first 15 passes, and end up with > 300 yards. I thought he looked good yesterday in the first half, and how can you blame him for that drop by VJax, which would have pulled the Chargers to within 7. No doubt that he's struggling, but a lot of the blame must be shared, IMO.
Now you want to share blame, but before you just talk about record Rivers compiled :headbang: Look, Rivers has the best RB we have seen in some time and Gates who appears to have HOF credentials to help him out. He also has a good OL and a top 5 defense that has helped amass that W/L record. If you look at Rivers though he does not seem to play well when pressured (it is easy to play action with LT and then set and throw to guys) and his arm strength is a major concern. Rivers has thrown about 10 wounded ducks this year when his arm was not hit. As for his decision making it has been very poor this year. There have been many times where LT should have been thrown to and instead he threw into double coverage (the play at the end of the game was a microcosm)

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

Would rather have Carr, Joey, or even Grossman rather than She-li......
Combined, those losers have as many wins as starters this year as Eli, and 5 more losses. Whatever you say because you really are showing a lack of football knowledge with that ridiculous statement.
I doubt you find any Charger fan that would take She-Li back.......you apparently don't know much about the Chargers with that ridiculous comment.

Rivers has been bad this year, but there is a lot to the poor line play, poor offense calling, and horrible horrible receiving corps....

Fouts, I disagree. If I am a SD fan, I woudl much rather have Eli than Rivers. The Giants have a VERY poor pass blocking line and Eli gets hurried and battered. they do have a good run blocking line, but now think of the weapons at each of their disposal. Just having LT should make the case. Outside of that you really have only 3 guys worth taling about in Plax, Shockey and Gates. But there is NO question I take Gates and LT over Shockey (always hurt) and Plax. The thing that has really surprised me is how weak Rivers arm is. He looks like Pennington when he throws.
Are you? My point was that Eli and the Chargers will always have a link and a negative one at that. Based on his behavior, I don't like the guy. Most Charger fans don't like him. I'd go with any other QB (better or worse) then She-li.....would be curious to see what MT and Gunz thought....
I would rather have Rivers. A couple subpar games with the OL and WRs struggling does not mean I'm ready to ignore River's Pro Bowl performance and 14-3 record last year. NE and Chicago are excellent defensively, and Rivers played well against GB. So really, yesterday was the first poor game I've seen from Philip when he really could have made a difference. And in his defense, VJax dropped that TD that was a perfect strike, and Rivers was hit as soon as the ball was thrown on that long wobbly duck that was picked off. Not sure who was at fault on the INT that went right by LT's head when he wasn't looking.

River's career record as a starter is now 15-6.

I really have a hard time taking analysis seriously when record is brought up as a reason for a QB to be better. If Marino in his prime were on the Dolphins right now do you think there is any chance they would be even 2-2? A QB needs a FULL TEAM around him to be successful as teh QB only makes up a small percentage of a teams success.
That's fine. I have a hard time taking analysis that seriously when that analysis ignores record. Rivers was in the Pro Bowl last season in his first year as a starter.

So your "Eli > Rivers" opinion is likely only based on the last 3 games of Rivers' career, and not the previous 18 games Rivers started. I don't put much weight on analysis that ignores 80% of the relevant data.

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As for his decision making it has been very poor this year. There have been many times where LT should have been thrown to and instead he threw into double coverage (the play at the end of the game was a microcosm)

LT was being shadowed on that play by Ty Law. Perhaps you didn't see Law because of the camera angle.

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Rivers has played poorly but he certainly hasn't been helped by drops. He should have had at least one TD in yesterday's game.

He seems to have problems reading linebackers dropping into coverage. As others have mentioned in this thread, I think the biggest concern might be that his leadership skills/intangibles, which were supposed to be great, seem to be taking a big hit. His propensity for throwing fits when things don't go his way have not served him well, and the sideline spat with LT was also a big PR hit (pretty clear whose side Chargers fans are on).

He's missed wide open receivers on a number of occasions this year, and the jump passes he tried to throw against New England were laughable. Unless he settles down and starts leading this team to some Ws, it could get a lot worse.

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I've never been a River fan. I did eat my crow last year though, up until the *Patriot game.He has some real problems in his reading and throwing deep after the snap. No doubt about. (At least no doubts for me)And his leadership value seems to be taking some serious blows currently. ugh Not who I want at QB. He cant still improve though.

Wow. Rivers' accuracy, ability to make the correct reads, and his leadership are widely considered his strongest attributes. Amazing how perception changes after a couple of subpar games. I repeat: Rivers is 15-6 as an NFL starter. His losses are: NE (2), Balt, GB, KC (2). Yesterday was his first regular season home loss.
You must have gone to the Lovie Smith school of defending a QB.That's blatant re-use of the "We are "enter wins" and "enter losses" with "enter QB name" as our QB - phrase Lovie had used to defend Rex time and time again.

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As for his decision making it has been very poor this year. There have been many times where LT should have been thrown to and instead he threw into double coverage (the play at the end of the game was a microcosm)

LT was being shadowed on that play by Ty Law. Perhaps you didn't see Law because of the camera angle.
I have that play Tivod; Law was at least 15 yards away from LT and I will take LT on a one and one tackle with a CB any day of the week. Of course holding the ball until you are on the way to the ground was a much better option.

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

Would rather have Carr, Joey, or even Grossman rather than She-li......
Combined, those losers have as many wins as starters this year as Eli, and 5 more losses. Whatever you say because you really are showing a lack of football knowledge with that ridiculous statement.
I doubt you find any Charger fan that would take She-Li back.......you apparently don't know much about the Chargers with that ridiculous comment.

Rivers has been bad this year, but there is a lot to the poor line play, poor offense calling, and horrible horrible receiving corps....

Fouts, I disagree. If I am a SD fan, I woudl much rather have Eli than Rivers. The Giants have a VERY poor pass blocking line and Eli gets hurried and battered. they do have a good run blocking line, but now think of the weapons at each of their disposal. Just having LT should make the case. Outside of that you really have only 3 guys worth taling about in Plax, Shockey and Gates. But there is NO question I take Gates and LT over Shockey (always hurt) and Plax. The thing that has really surprised me is how weak Rivers arm is. He looks like Pennington when he throws.
Are you? My point was that Eli and the Chargers will always have a link and a negative one at that. Based on his behavior, I don't like the guy. Most Charger fans don't like him. I'd go with any other QB (better or worse) then She-li.....would be curious to see what MT and Gunz thought....
I would rather have Rivers. A couple subpar games with the OL and WRs struggling does not mean I'm ready to ignore River's Pro Bowl performance and 14-3 record last year. NE and Chicago are excellent defensively, and Rivers played well against GB. So really, yesterday was the first poor game I've seen from Philip when he really could have made a difference. And in his defense, VJax dropped that TD that was a perfect strike, and Rivers was hit as soon as the ball was thrown on that long wobbly duck that was picked off. Not sure who was at fault on the INT that went right by LT's head when he wasn't looking.

River's career record as a starter is now 15-6.

I really have a hard time taking analysis seriously when record is brought up as a reason for a QB to be better. If Marino in his prime were on the Dolphins right now do you think there is any chance they would be even 2-2? A QB needs a FULL TEAM around him to be successful as teh QB only makes up a small percentage of a teams success.
That's fine. I have a hard time taking analysis that seriously when that analysis ignores record. Rivers was in the Pro Bowl last season in his first year as a starter.

So your "Eli > Rivers" opinion is likely only based on the last 3 games of Rivers' career, and not the previous 18 games Rivers started. I don't put much weight on analysis that ignores 80% of the relevant data.

I am looking at all the data and what I see is Manning getting better and better and already is solid compared to Rivers who appeared to be a product of the great talent around him (even last year) and appears to be regressing (even if it is just 1/4 of the season). Also, the regressing started last year.

Do you really judge players based on their records? Man, look at my signature with the appx values of players and the QB while being the most important position still doesn't represent 15% of the outcome of a game. Looking at records will make some people come out with wrong conclusions that Grossman was good last year. I remember doing an analysis with a Dallas fan during Aikmans hey day and the backup QB's were 11-1 when he was hurt. Talent around you can make one look very good and the opposite is true as well.

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As for his decision making it has been very poor this year. There have been many times where LT should have been thrown to and instead he threw into double coverage (the play at the end of the game was a microcosm)

LT was being shadowed on that play by Ty Law. Perhaps you didn't see Law because of the camera angle.
BTW, I do not think Rivers sucks. He is now going through an adjustment period that he needs to come out of. We will know more by the end of the year, but I don't like his arm strength and decision making when under pressure. Last year he was playing in very ideal situations for a QB. Overall, I would not be thrilled with Rivers as my QB, but I would not be ready to dump him either.

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looks like I might be the only one to say this.....but I am actually thinking about trying to aquire Rivers on the cheap right now......Eli is my number #1 backed by Garcia, Garrad....I think SD will turn it around soon and Rivers could have some nice games down the road.....I think now is the time to buy low on Rivers for those looking to add some depth to their QB position...

You're not the only one, I agree. Of course, I am the biggest Rivers fan on the board, so I suppose that is a given for me.
I know you have stated before that you are a Chargers fan, and I'm assuming you became a Chargers fan because Philip Rivers plays for them. Who did you pull for (in the NFL) before Rivers became a Charger?
It is true that I became a Chargers fan when they drafted Rivers. Grew up in NC so never had a true favorite, with no local team, just liked the NFL. If I had to pick one before Rivers was drafted I would have defaulted to the Panthers, but they weren't around when I grew up, and we got the Redskins as our "local" feed every week... ugh.

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

Would rather have Carr, Joey, or even Grossman rather than She-li......
Combined, those losers have as many wins as starters this year as Eli, and 5 more losses. Whatever you say because you really are showing a lack of football knowledge with that ridiculous statement.
I doubt you find any Charger fan that would take She-Li back.......you apparently don't know much about the Chargers with that ridiculous comment.

Rivers has been bad this year, but there is a lot to the poor line play, poor offense calling, and horrible horrible receiving corps....

Fouts, I disagree. If I am a SD fan, I woudl much rather have Eli than Rivers. The Giants have a VERY poor pass blocking line and Eli gets hurried and battered. they do have a good run blocking line, but now think of the weapons at each of their disposal. Just having LT should make the case. Outside of that you really have only 3 guys worth taling about in Plax, Shockey and Gates. But there is NO question I take Gates and LT over Shockey (always hurt) and Plax. The thing that has really surprised me is how weak Rivers arm is. He looks like Pennington when he throws.
Are you? My point was that Eli and the Chargers will always have a link and a negative one at that. Based on his behavior, I don't like the guy. Most Charger fans don't like him. I'd go with any other QB (better or worse) then She-li.....would be curious to see what MT and Gunz thought....
I would rather have Rivers. A couple subpar games with the OL and WRs struggling does not mean I'm ready to ignore River's Pro Bowl performance and 14-3 record last year. NE and Chicago are excellent defensively, and Rivers played well against GB. So really, yesterday was the first poor game I've seen from Philip when he really could have made a difference. And in his defense, VJax dropped that TD that was a perfect strike, and Rivers was hit as soon as the ball was thrown on that long wobbly duck that was picked off. Not sure who was at fault on the INT that went right by LT's head when he wasn't looking.

River's career record as a starter is now 15-6.

:goodposting:

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I've never been a River fan. I did eat my crow last year though, up until the *Patriot game.

He has some real problems in his reading and throwing deep after the snap. No doubt about. (At least no doubts for me)

And his leadership value seems to be taking some serious blows currently. ugh Not who I want at QB. He cant still improve though.

Wow. Rivers' accuracy, ability to make the correct reads, and his leadership are widely considered his strongest attributes. Amazing how perception changes after a couple of subpar games.

I repeat: Rivers is 15-6 as an NFL starter. His losses are: NE (2), Balt, GB, KC (2). Yesterday was his first regular season home loss.

Tommy I am speaking on specifically deep passes where he has to make a decision and read after the snap. Before the snap he is fine. When he throws deep to his main target he is fine.

--But many times he has already made up his mind where he throwing deep when he leaves the huddle... and if that person is covered, here comes a bad bad decision and throw when he tries to make a read during the play and change off to the next receiver. He does dump the ball off very well and even got into some issues over his continuance to dump. Not that it s bad thing and not that the Chargers dont use it a ton anyway. But he was not finding his second and third options on deeper routes when they needed large amount of yardage and his primary was covered.

Im talking about football and particularly the quarterback... not a w/l record of the chargers as a team.

My perception has never changed on him. Ive been constant and last year he made me eat crow because what he was doing worked.

But he still has a problem with the area I pointed to once again.

[edit]Sorry for all the typos.

I don't really know how to quantify the bolded part exactly, but consider this - his splits year to date:

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 25 attempts, 110.6 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 44 attempts, 77.2 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 18 attempts, 112.7 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 9 attempts, 61.1 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 1 attempt, 39.6 rating

Looks to me like he really needs to improve more in the 1-10 yard range than on deep balls. Sure, his QB rating isn't great on the deep balls, but he's only thrown 10 passes 21+ yards... small sample size.

How about last year?

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 103 attempts, 71.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 200 attempts, 93.5 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 102 attempts, 108.0 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 30 attempts, 78.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 19 attempts, 119.3 rating

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds. - 6 attempts, 65.3 rating

He did well enough last year. I expect improvement from here forward.

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I've been saying this for over a year. :confused:

You and I were alone on that island for quite some time, IIRC.
You don't RC.There were a TON of people saying SD really screwed up by turning the reigns over to Rivers. MANY thought SD should have given Drew Brees a long term contract for top-5 QB $. Oddly enough not many people are bumping those threads though.

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Bottom line with the three top QBs in the '04 draft class is they've all shown glimpses of greatness mixed in with stretches of inconsistency. You could have taken a snapshot at any point last season and said Rivers is clearly better than Manning and Roethlisberger. In '04-'05 you could have said Roethlisberger is clearly better than Eli Manning. This year it's Ben and Manning leading Rivers. Give these guys another year or two before we decide who has made it into the elite QBs and who has not.

Edited by Frenchy Fuqua

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I've been saying this for over a year. :thumbup:

You and I were alone on that island for quite some time, IIRC.
You don't RC.There were a TON of people saying SD really screwed up by turning the reigns over to Rivers. MANY thought SD should have given Drew Brees a long term contract for top-5 QB $. Oddly enough not many people are bumping those threads though.
The island was more about Rivers being terrible this season, and LHUCKS and I were in agreement in preseason.If you were as well, "congrats" and "sorry" both seem appropriate.

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I've never been a River fan. I did eat my crow last year though, up until the *Patriot game.He has some real problems in his reading and throwing deep after the snap. No doubt about. (At least no doubts for me)And his leadership value seems to be taking some serious blows currently. ugh Not who I want at QB. He cant still improve though.

Wow. Rivers' accuracy, ability to make the correct reads, and his leadership are widely considered his strongest attributes. Amazing how perception changes after a couple of subpar games. I repeat: Rivers is 15-6 as an NFL starter. His losses are: NE (2), Balt, GB, KC (2). Yesterday was his first regular season home loss.
You must have gone to the Lovie Smith school of defending a QB.That's blatant re-use of the "We are "enter wins" and "enter losses" with "enter QB name" as our QB - phrase Lovie had used to defend Rex time and time again.
I hate San Diego period, but Rivers was the better QB between him and E. Manning last year(answering a couple of post here). So far Rivers has not played well this year, losing your coach and adjusting to a new offensive scheme can rattle a young player. Rivers will have his ups and downs this year, but I expect him to get better. I am surprised by the poor O-Line play so far and I also expect that unit to improve. Don’t discount the mental aspect that loyalty can play with regards to how well a team responds to a new coaching staff. Dingle Berry Gm for SD wanted to can Marty and got his wish, now its Bland butt Norv Turner, who is as about inspiring as Brussels sprouts, they may be good for you but who the heck really wants to take a bite. Remember the saying "Careful what you wish for" the San Diego fans wanted Marty gone (of course they will deny it now) and they got their wish. Now they can live with it. When you live in San Diego which may be one of the best outdoor cities in America, how the hell can anyone have time for football anyway? San Diego doesn’t need Football they need Women’s Beach Volley ball.

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I've never been a River fan. I did eat my crow last year though, up until the *Patriot game.

He has some real problems in his reading and throwing deep after the snap. No doubt about. (At least no doubts for me)

And his leadership value seems to be taking some serious blows currently. ugh Not who I want at QB. He cant still improve though.

Wow. Rivers' accuracy, ability to make the correct reads, and his leadership are widely considered his strongest attributes. Amazing how perception changes after a couple of subpar games.

I repeat: Rivers is 15-6 as an NFL starter. His losses are: NE (2), Balt, GB, KC (2). Yesterday was his first regular season home loss.

Tommy I am speaking on specifically deep passes where he has to make a decision and read after the snap. Before the snap he is fine. When he throws deep to his main target he is fine.

--But many times he has already made up his mind where he throwing deep when he leaves the huddle... and if that person is covered, here comes a bad bad decision and throw when he tries to make a read during the play and change off to the next receiver. He does dump the ball off very well and even got into some issues over his continuance to dump. Not that it s bad thing and not that the Chargers dont use it a ton anyway. But he was not finding his second and third options on deeper routes when they needed large amount of yardage and his primary was covered.

Im talking about football and particularly the quarterback... not a w/l record of the chargers as a team.

My perception has never changed on him. Ive been constant and last year he made me eat crow because what he was doing worked.

But he still has a problem with the area I pointed to once again.

[edit]Sorry for all the typos.

I don't really know how to quantify the bolded part exactly, but consider this - his splits year to date:

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 25 attempts, 110.6 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 44 attempts, 77.2 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 18 attempts, 112.7 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 9 attempts, 61.1 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 1 attempt, 39.6 rating

Looks to me like he really needs to improve more in the 1-10 yard range than on deep balls. Sure, his QB rating isn't great on the deep balls, but he's only thrown 10 passes 21+ yards... small sample size.

How about last year?

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 103 attempts, 71.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 200 attempts, 93.5 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 102 attempts, 108.0 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 30 attempts, 78.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 19 attempts, 119.3 rating

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds. - 6 attempts, 65.3 rating

He did well enough last year. I expect improvement from here forward.

You cannot do it with stats.

I even stated when he goes to his main target he is fine.

Edited by BigSteelThrill

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I've never been a River fan. I did eat my crow last year though, up until the *Patriot game.

He has some real problems in his reading and throwing deep after the snap. No doubt about. (At least no doubts for me)

And his leadership value seems to be taking some serious blows currently. ugh Not who I want at QB. He cant still improve though.

Wow. Rivers' accuracy, ability to make the correct reads, and his leadership are widely considered his strongest attributes. Amazing how perception changes after a couple of subpar games.

I repeat: Rivers is 15-6 as an NFL starter. His losses are: NE (2), Balt, GB, KC (2). Yesterday was his first regular season home loss.

Tommy I am speaking on specifically deep passes where he has to make a decision and read after the snap. Before the snap he is fine. When he throws deep to his main target he is fine.

--But many times he has already made up his mind where he throwing deep when he leaves the huddle... and if that person is covered, here comes a bad bad decision and throw when he tries to make a read during the play and change off to the next receiver. He does dump the ball off very well and even got into some issues over his continuance to dump. Not that it s bad thing and not that the Chargers dont use it a ton anyway. But he was not finding his second and third options on deeper routes when they needed large amount of yardage and his primary was covered.

Im talking about football and particularly the quarterback... not a w/l record of the chargers as a team.

My perception has never changed on him. Ive been constant and last year he made me eat crow because what he was doing worked.

But he still has a problem with the area I pointed to once again.

[edit]Sorry for all the typos.

I don't really know how to quantify the bolded part exactly, but consider this - his splits year to date:

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 25 attempts, 110.6 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 44 attempts, 77.2 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 18 attempts, 112.7 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 9 attempts, 61.1 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 1 attempt, 39.6 rating

Looks to me like he really needs to improve more in the 1-10 yard range than on deep balls. Sure, his QB rating isn't great on the deep balls, but he's only thrown 10 passes 21+ yards... small sample size.

How about last year?

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 103 attempts, 71.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 200 attempts, 93.5 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 102 attempts, 108.0 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 30 attempts, 78.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 19 attempts, 119.3 rating

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds. - 6 attempts, 65.3 rating

He did well enough last year. I expect improvement from here forward.

You cannot do it with stats.

I even stated when he goes to his main target he is fine.

Well, okay, but he's only thrown deep, assuming deep means more than 20 yards, 10 times. He completed 3 of those, and I'm pretty sure there was a drop or two in there. So how bad could he have looked on no more than 7 total passes that were incomplete? And besides that, is 20 yards really "deep"? He has only thrown one pass more than 30 yards. My points were (a) his sample size for throwing "deep" is too small to draw conclusions so far and (b) he did pretty well at it last year, which leads me to think he'll improve. :thumbup:

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I've never been a River fan. I did eat my crow last year though, up until the *Patriot game.

He has some real problems in his reading and throwing deep after the snap. No doubt about. (At least no doubts for me)

And his leadership value seems to be taking some serious blows currently. ugh Not who I want at QB. He cant still improve though.

Wow. Rivers' accuracy, ability to make the correct reads, and his leadership are widely considered his strongest attributes. Amazing how perception changes after a couple of subpar games.

I repeat: Rivers is 15-6 as an NFL starter. His losses are: NE (2), Balt, GB, KC (2). Yesterday was his first regular season home loss.

Tommy I am speaking on specifically deep passes where he has to make a decision and read after the snap. Before the snap he is fine. When he throws deep to his main target he is fine.

--But many times he has already made up his mind where he throwing deep when he leaves the huddle... and if that person is covered, here comes a bad bad decision and throw when he tries to make a read during the play and change off to the next receiver. He does dump the ball off very well and even got into some issues over his continuance to dump. Not that it s bad thing and not that the Chargers dont use it a ton anyway. But he was not finding his second and third options on deeper routes when they needed large amount of yardage and his primary was covered.

Im talking about football and particularly the quarterback... not a w/l record of the chargers as a team.

My perception has never changed on him. Ive been constant and last year he made me eat crow because what he was doing worked.

But he still has a problem with the area I pointed to once again.

[edit]Sorry for all the typos.

I don't really know how to quantify the bolded part exactly, but consider this - his splits year to date:

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 25 attempts, 110.6 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 44 attempts, 77.2 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 18 attempts, 112.7 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 9 attempts, 61.1 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 1 attempt, 39.6 rating

Looks to me like he really needs to improve more in the 1-10 yard range than on deep balls. Sure, his QB rating isn't great on the deep balls, but he's only thrown 10 passes 21+ yards... small sample size.

How about last year?

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 103 attempts, 71.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 200 attempts, 93.5 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 102 attempts, 108.0 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 30 attempts, 78.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 19 attempts, 119.3 rating

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds. - 6 attempts, 65.3 rating

He did well enough last year. I expect improvement from here forward.

You cannot do it with stats.

I even stated when he goes to his main target he is fine.

Well, okay, but he's only thrown deep, assuming deep means more than 20 yards, 10 times. He completed 3 of those, and I'm pretty sure there was a drop or two in there. So how bad could he have looked on no more than 7 total passes that were incomplete? And besides that, is 20 yards really "deep"? He has only thrown one pass more than 30 yards. My points were (a) his sample size for throwing "deep" is too small to draw conclusions so far and (b) he did pretty well at it last year, which leads me to think he'll improve. :thumbup:
Because when he goes to his next target it may very well be in the 1-40 or 1-30 or 1-20 range and that may be why those numbers are not much greater.

If you dont SEE it in the game, then you dont SEE it. My apologies JWB, its not a stats thing you read in the spreadsheets of the newspaper.

Heck, a sack wouldnt even show up in those stats.

Edited by BigSteelThrill

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As for his decision making it has been very poor this year. There have been many times where LT should have been thrown to and instead he threw into double coverage (the play at the end of the game was a microcosm)

LT was being shadowed on that play by Ty Law. Perhaps you didn't see Law because of the camera angle.
BTW, I do not think Rivers sucks. He is now going through an adjustment period that he needs to come out of. We will know more by the end of the year, but I don't like his arm strength and decision making when under pressure. Last year he was playing in very ideal situations for a QB. Overall, I would not be thrilled with Rivers as my QB, but I would not be ready to dump him either.
Ideal conditions? IND is an ideal condition. Harrison and Wayne are ideal. Was Eric Parker and ideal wr1? Is V. Jackson in his second year ideal? I don't even know how is WR2; Floyd? He has a great TE and a RB, but he is doesn't have great WRs. Now, it is true that a great QB like Favre canmake his WRs better, but early in his career Favre didn't do that. I agree: we will be able to judge Rivers better by the end of the year, but you can't evaluate someone on three games out of three years.

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I've never been a River fan. I did eat my crow last year though, up until the *Patriot game.

He has some real problems in his reading and throwing deep after the snap. No doubt about. (At least no doubts for me)

And his leadership value seems to be taking some serious blows currently. ugh Not who I want at QB. He cant still improve though.

Wow. Rivers' accuracy, ability to make the correct reads, and his leadership are widely considered his strongest attributes. Amazing how perception changes after a couple of subpar games.

I repeat: Rivers is 15-6 as an NFL starter. His losses are: NE (2), Balt, GB, KC (2). Yesterday was his first regular season home loss.

Tommy I am speaking on specifically deep passes where he has to make a decision and read after the snap. Before the snap he is fine. When he throws deep to his main target he is fine.

--But many times he has already made up his mind where he throwing deep when he leaves the huddle... and if that person is covered, here comes a bad bad decision and throw when he tries to make a read during the play and change off to the next receiver. He does dump the ball off very well and even got into some issues over his continuance to dump. Not that it s bad thing and not that the Chargers dont use it a ton anyway. But he was not finding his second and third options on deeper routes when they needed large amount of yardage and his primary was covered.

Im talking about football and particularly the quarterback... not a w/l record of the chargers as a team.

My perception has never changed on him. Ive been constant and last year he made me eat crow because what he was doing worked.

But he still has a problem with the area I pointed to once again.

[edit]Sorry for all the typos.

I don't really know how to quantify the bolded part exactly, but consider this - his splits year to date:

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 25 attempts, 110.6 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 44 attempts, 77.2 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 18 attempts, 112.7 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 9 attempts, 61.1 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 1 attempt, 39.6 rating

Looks to me like he really needs to improve more in the 1-10 yard range than on deep balls. Sure, his QB rating isn't great on the deep balls, but he's only thrown 10 passes 21+ yards... small sample size.

How about last year?

Pass Thrown: Behind line - 103 attempts, 71.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 1-10 yds. - 200 attempts, 93.5 rating

Pass Thrown: 11-20 yds. - 102 attempts, 108.0 rating

Pass Thrown: 21-30 yds. - 30 attempts, 78.9 rating

Pass Thrown: 31-40 yds. - 19 attempts, 119.3 rating

Pass Thrown: 41+ yds. - 6 attempts, 65.3 rating

He did well enough last year. I expect improvement from here forward.

You cannot do it with stats.

I even stated when he goes to his main target he is fine.

Well, okay, but he's only thrown deep, assuming deep means more than 20 yards, 10 times. He completed 3 of those, and I'm pretty sure there was a drop or two in there. So how bad could he have looked on no more than 7 total passes that were incomplete? And besides that, is 20 yards really "deep"? He has only thrown one pass more than 30 yards. My points were (a) his sample size for throwing "deep" is too small to draw conclusions so far and (b) he did pretty well at it last year, which leads me to think he'll improve. :excited:
Because when he goes to his next target it may very well be in the 1-40 or 1-30 or 1-20 range and that may be why those numbers are not much greater.

If you dont SEE it in the game, then you dont SEE it. My apologies JWB, its not a stats thing you read in the spreadsheets of the newspaper.

Heck, a sack wouldnt even show up in those stats.

OK. I saw his first two games, and he definitely didn't play well. However, I thought it was due in large part to playing two excellent defenses. As for throwing deep in those two games, I don't recall that he did it particularly poorly, but I do know that my impression was that he didn't have a lot of time in the pocket to let things develop (e.g., a deep pattern or to go to his second or third read after a deep first read).

I didn't see game 3, but the numbers made it seem as if he played better. And I didn't see game 4, either.

Bottom line is I think he'll improve from here (insert joke about there being nowhere to go but up...). He's too good a player not to IMO.

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Still sucks. Absolutely killing people with the inconsistency and sub-10 pt performances each week.

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I've been preaching this since I saw him play for the first time:

Rivers has an absolute rag arm. It is Chad Pennington-esqe. He is so lucky he has Gates and LT to make him look much better then he is.

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I've been preaching this since I saw him play for the first time:Rivers has an absolute rag arm. It is Chad Pennington-esqe. He is so lucky he has Gates and LT to make him look much better then he is.

Seems like AJ Smith's master plan is unravelling before his eyes. I still feel they needed to keep Drew Brees. Marty fought to keep Drew Brees. With Drew Brees they might have very well gone all the way last year and would definitely be contending again this year, given Marty was still there this year too.

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I've been preaching this since I saw him play for the first time:Rivers has an absolute rag arm. It is Chad Pennington-esqe. He is so lucky he has Gates and LT to make him look much better then he is.

Seems like AJ Smith's master plan is unravelling before his eyes. I still feel they needed to keep Drew Brees. Marty fought to keep Drew Brees. With Drew Brees they might have very well gone all the way last year and would definitely be contending again this year, given Marty was still there this year too.
Drew Brees has struggled in many games this year, and he is more experienced than Rivers.

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I've been preaching this since I saw him play for the first time:Rivers has an absolute rag arm. It is Chad Pennington-esqe. He is so lucky he has Gates and LT to make him look much better then he is.

Seems like AJ Smith's master plan is unravelling before his eyes. I still feel they needed to keep Drew Brees. Marty fought to keep Drew Brees. With Drew Brees they might have very well gone all the way last year and would definitely be contending again this year, given Marty was still there this year too.
Drew Brees has struggled in many games this year, and he is more experienced than Rivers.
The entire team of teh Saints is struggling. Drew Brees with his old San diego supporting cast would be all-pro for many years.

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The Saints definitely have a more "wide open" offense than the Chargers but regardless of that Brees is a much better QB than Rivers and it would have been nice to see what Brees and the Chargers could have accomplished last year and/or this year. Brees is a gunslinger and Jackson/Chambers may not catch even 50% of what comes their way but get them enough deep/accurate targets and lots of good could have come from it.

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I know some will argue my take on this but I would love to see how things would turn out if they had Brees, Marty and their coordinators. They might already have the division wrapped up by now.

Another thought. I have expressed my disdain for AJ in the past for among other things letting Brees and Marty go. But I've read some of the posts of AJ defenders explaining the play of Rivers by being the fault of the WR's and the O-line. In reading these explanations I am reminded of their arguments that AJ is the one who assembled the talent that resides in SD. So if that's the case, and it is, then who should we be pointing the finger at for the O-line and WR play? AJ? After all, he's the one that assembled the players that remain in SD.

I really do think AJ's actions have placed this team in a negative situation. They will likely win their division but I seriously doubt they have any real shot at the S.B.

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I know some will argue my take on this but I would love to see how things would turn out if they had Brees, Marty and their coordinators. They might already have the division wrapped up by now.

Well, there's a couple problems with this;- If Brees would have had the protection that Rivers had today the game wouldn't have been ANY closer. Not a bit. Did you happen to see the first several games of the season when Brees was given no time by his OL?- It certainly would have been great if SD could have kept "Marty and their coordinators". In this dreamworld could we also have Kellen Winslow SR, Wes Chandler and John Jefferson in their prime? Gary Johnson? Gill Byrd? Because the idea they could have kept "Marty and their coordinators" this off season is just as much fantasy.

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So if that's the case, and it is, then who should we be pointing the finger at for the O-line and WR play? AJ? After all, he's the one that assembled the players that remain in SD. I really do think AJ's actions have placed this team in a negative situation. They will likely win their division but I seriously doubt they have any real shot at the S.B.

Most people felt the OL was solid going into the season, though it's not at full strength right now. The WR's played very well imo, particularly Chambers who AJ brought in.It's been about a month since their last loss, and I think every team in the NFL that doesn't play it's home games in Foxboro are going to have an uphill climb to win the SB.

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I know some will argue my take on this but I would love to see how things would turn out if they had Brees, Marty and their coordinators. They might already have the division wrapped up by now.

Well, there's a couple problems with this;- If Brees would have had the protection that Rivers had today the game wouldn't have been ANY closer. Not a bit. Did you happen to see the first several games of the season when Brees was given no time by his OL?- It certainly would have been great if SD could have kept "Marty and their coordinators". In this dreamworld could we also have Kellen Winslow SR, Wes Chandler and John Jefferson in their prime? Gary Johnson? Gill Byrd? Because the idea they could have kept "Marty and their coordinators" this off season is just as much fantasy.
I think the experience Brees has would help overcome some of the protection issues. Experience is very valuable especially for a QB. Speculating this is fun but we'll never know if he would do better or not.As for keeping Marty and Brees, that was a "real" possibility. AJ wanted them gone and so they are. There were so other players allowed to leave as well.What's left is what AJ wanted so now we're seeing the results of his genious.

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So if that's the case, and it is, then who should we be pointing the finger at for the O-line and WR play? AJ? After all, he's the one that assembled the players that remain in SD. I really do think AJ's actions have placed this team in a negative situation. They will likely win their division but I seriously doubt they have any real shot at the S.B.

Most people felt the OL was solid going into the season, though it's not at full strength right now. The WR's played very well imo, particularly Chambers who AJ brought in.It's been about a month since their last loss, and I think every team in the NFL that doesn't play it's home games in Foxboro are going to have an uphill climb to win the SB.
Not sure I agree with this because based on what we saw last year most thought SD was the team to beat. And if not for a boneheaded play against NE in the playoffs, they had them beat. So taking that momemtum into this year left alot of us feeling they were the team to beat. But I also think AJ's actions did more than just change the leadership on the team. It's also allowed the chemistry, momemtun and direction of the team go awry.

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So if that's the case, and it is, then who should we be pointing the finger at for the O-line and WR play? AJ? After all, he's the one that assembled the players that remain in SD. I really do think AJ's actions have placed this team in a negative situation. They will likely win their division but I seriously doubt they have any real shot at the S.B.

Most people felt the OL was solid going into the season, though it's not at full strength right now. The WR's played very well imo, particularly Chambers who AJ brought in.It's been about a month since their last loss, and I think every team in the NFL that doesn't play it's home games in Foxboro are going to have an uphill climb to win the SB.
Not sure I agree with this because based on what we saw last year most thought SD was the team to beat. And if not for a boneheaded play against NE in the playoffs, they had them beat. So taking that momemtum into this year left alot of us feeling they were the team to beat. But I also think AJ's actions did more than just change the leadership on the team. It's also allowed the chemistry, momemtun and direction of the team go awry.
You honestly can't see that this years Patriots are better team than they were last year?Honestly?

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I know some will argue my take on this but I would love to see how things would turn out if they had Brees, Marty and their coordinators. They might already have the division wrapped up by now.

Well, there's a couple problems with this;- If Brees would have had the protection that Rivers had today the game wouldn't have been ANY closer. Not a bit. Did you happen to see the first several games of the season when Brees was given no time by his OL?- It certainly would have been great if SD could have kept "Marty and their coordinators". In this dreamworld could we also have Kellen Winslow SR, Wes Chandler and John Jefferson in their prime? Gary Johnson? Gill Byrd? Because the idea they could have kept "Marty and their coordinators" this off season is just as much fantasy.
I think the experience Brees has would help overcome some of the protection issues. Experience is very valuable especially for a QB. Speculating this is fun but we'll never know if he would do better or not.As for keeping Marty and Brees, that was a "real" possibility. AJ wanted them gone and so they are. There were so other players allowed to leave as well.What's left is what AJ wanted so now we're seeing the results of his genious.
AJ never wanted "Marty AND THE COORDINATORS" gone.I'll just assume you've never seen a game Brees has played with no protection. It's not speculation, it's happened several times with pretty consistent results.

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I know some will argue my take on this but I would love to see how things would turn out if they had Brees, Marty and their coordinators. They might already have the division wrapped up by now.

Well, there's a couple problems with this;- If Brees would have had the protection that Rivers had today the game wouldn't have been ANY closer. Not a bit. Did you happen to see the first several games of the season when Brees was given no time by his OL?- It certainly would have been great if SD could have kept "Marty and their coordinators". In this dreamworld could we also have Kellen Winslow SR, Wes Chandler and John Jefferson in their prime? Gary Johnson? Gill Byrd? Because the idea they could have kept "Marty and their coordinators" this off season is just as much fantasy.
I think the experience Brees has would help overcome some of the protection issues. Experience is very valuable especially for a QB. Speculating this is fun but we'll never know if he would do better or not.As for keeping Marty and Brees, that was a "real" possibility. AJ wanted them gone and so they are. There were so other players allowed to leave as well.What's left is what AJ wanted so now we're seeing the results of his genious.
The Chargers have one of the best records in football the past 3-4 seasons, after being perhaps the least talented franchise when AJ took over. Please link to the threads where you praised AJ for signing Gates as an undrafted FA, trading Eli for Rivers, Merriman, Kaeding, McCardell, signing Dielman for 10M under the Seahawk offer, trading for Chambers, etc.TIA

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I've been preaching this since I saw him play for the first time:Rivers has an absolute rag arm. It is Chad Pennington-esqe. He is so lucky he has Gates and LT to make him look much better then he is.

Seems like AJ Smith's master plan is unravelling before his eyes. I still feel they needed to keep Drew Brees. Marty fought to keep Drew Brees. With Drew Brees they might have very well gone all the way last year and would definitely be contending again this year, given Marty was still there this year too.
The Chargers had a better record in Philip Rivers' first year than any year under Drew Brees. I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

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I know some will argue my take on this but I would love to see how things would turn out if they had Brees, Marty and their coordinators. They might already have the division wrapped up by now.Another thought. I have expressed my disdain for AJ in the past for among other things letting Brees and Marty go. But I've read some of the posts of AJ defenders explaining the play of Rivers by being the fault of the WR's and the O-line. In reading these explanations I am reminded of their arguments that AJ is the one who assembled the talent that resides in SD. So if that's the case, and it is, then who should we be pointing the finger at for the O-line and WR play? AJ? After all, he's the one that assembled the players that remain in SD. I really do think AJ's actions have placed this team in a negative situation. They will likely win their division but I seriously doubt they have any real shot at the S.B.

LaDainain Tomlinson had a terrible day today also. Do you think the Bolts would be better off with Michael Turner in the backfield?

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I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

I think you'd be surprised if you created a poll.

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I don't know any Charger fans who would rather have Drew Brees. None.

I think you'd be surprised if you created a poll.
Depends.If you asked Charger fans on the board if they would rather pay Rivers to sit on the bench AND pay Brees $20mil to start I can only think of one poster that would still want mismanage the cap that way.Most Charger fans have seen Brees play against a heavy pass rush and fully realize he wouldn't have looked any better in todays game than Rivers(who admittedly looked very bad today imo).

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I know some will argue my take on this but I would love to see how things would turn out if they had Brees, Marty and their coordinators. They might already have the division wrapped up by now.Another thought. I have expressed my disdain for AJ in the past for among other things letting Brees and Marty go. But I've read some of the posts of AJ defenders explaining the play of Rivers by being the fault of the WR's and the O-line. In reading these explanations I am reminded of their arguments that AJ is the one who assembled the talent that resides in SD. So if that's the case, and it is, then who should we be pointing the finger at for the O-line and WR play? AJ? After all, he's the one that assembled the players that remain in SD. I really do think AJ's actions have placed this team in a negative situation. They will likely win their division but I seriously doubt they have any real shot at the S.B.

LaDainain Tomlinson had a terrible day today also. Do you think the Bolts would be better off with Michael Turner in the backfield?
I don't really think he had a bad day. He didn't have any holes and that was enhanced by the fact SD ran him straight up the middle into MIN good run stopping DT's all day long on first down. The play calling today on offense was horrendous.

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

I bet they wish they had Brees, and had used the Giants pick to pick a position they didn't already have capably filled with a pro bowler.

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Vincent Jackson bears some responsibility for Rivers' final numbers, as well. Just as an example, he had offensive pass interference called on him (on what would've been a completion) and dropped an easy first down catch... on consecutive plays.

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Vincent Jackson bears some responsibility for Rivers' final numbers, as well. Just as an example, he had offensive pass interference called on him (on what would've been a completion) and dropped an easy first down catch... on consecutive plays.

The OPI was a BS call, but there's no excuse for the drop.

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

I bet they wish they had Brees, and had used the Giants pick to pick a position they didn't already have capably filled with a pro bowler.
They would have ended up with Gallery. I'm fine with how it has worked out.

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So if that's the case, and it is, then who should we be pointing the finger at for the O-line and WR play? AJ? After all, he's the one that assembled the players that remain in SD. I really do think AJ's actions have placed this team in a negative situation. They will likely win their division but I seriously doubt they have any real shot at the S.B.

Most people felt the OL was solid going into the season, though it's not at full strength right now. The WR's played very well imo, particularly Chambers who AJ brought in.It's been about a month since their last loss, and I think every team in the NFL that doesn't play it's home games in Foxboro are going to have an uphill climb to win the SB.
Not sure I agree with this because based on what we saw last year most thought SD was the team to beat. And if not for a boneheaded play against NE in the playoffs, they had them beat. So taking that momemtum into this year left alot of us feeling they were the team to beat. But I also think AJ's actions did more than just change the leadership on the team. It's also allowed the chemistry, momemtun and direction of the team go awry.
It isn't over yet. I recall the Steelers having a rough 2005 coming off their 15-1 season. They got hot at the end of the year and blew through the playoffs. It could easily happen that way for the Chargers this year.

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

I bet they wish they had Brees, and had used the Giants pick to pick a position they didn't already have capably filled with a pro bowler.
Not at $20mil for a single season, and they traded the Giants for Rivers..... not the pick. The Giants had already drafted Rivers when the trade had been made.

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Bet they wish they had Eli right about now.

I bet they wish they had Brees, and had used the Giants pick to pick a position they didn't already have capably filled with a pro bowler.
They would have ended up with Gallery. I'm fine with how it has worked out.
Duh, you're not assuming we can use our 20/20 hindsight goggles to make past draft picks?

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