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Philip Rivers Thread (3 Viewers)

Gr00vus said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
:confused:Sorry, I thought this was a Rivers thread....
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It's already been firmly established that you were right and Rivers does indeed suck.
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I still don't think he sucks, just like I said Eli Manning didn't suck last year when people were ready to jump off bridges because of his poor play, but he is not playing well to be sure. IMO there are several factors that contribute to his poor performences but I'll admit earlier in the year I felt like he was a solid every week starter but this year he's been a QBBC. It's still fair to note that based on where he was being drafted he was likely drafted as a QBBC. He may be a slight bust(QB16 this year with an ADP of QB11) but there are much, much bigger busts out there. IMO very few people had their season ruined by Rivers drafted #79 overall when compared to Young(#76ADP), Bulger(#37ADP), Brees(#30ADP) or even Palmer(#22ADP).My position on that hasn't really changed all that much.
 
Gr00vus said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
:thumbup: Sorry, I thought this was a Rivers thread....
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It's already been firmly established that you were right and Rivers does indeed suck. People have moved on to having the same argument they've been having for nearly a year now as its infinitely more interesting listening to Family Matters continue to ignore what actually happened in the past to continue his reign of obtuseness. Get with the program.
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:lmao: :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
BoltBacker said:
Gr00vus said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
:thumbup:Sorry, I thought this was a Rivers thread....
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It's already been firmly established that you were right and Rivers does indeed suck.
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I still don't think he sucks, just like I said Eli Manning didn't suck last year when people were ready to jump off bridges because of his poor play, but he is not playing well to be sure. IMO there are several factors that contribute to his poor performences but I'll admit earlier in the year I felt like he was a solid every week starter but this year he's been a QBBC. It's still fair to note that based on where he was being drafted he was likely drafted as a QBBC. He may be a slight bust(QB16 this year with an ADP of QB11) but there are much, much bigger busts out there. IMO very few people had their season ruined by Rivers drafted #79 overall when compared to Young(#76ADP), Bulger(#37ADP), Brees(#30ADP) or even Palmer(#22ADP).My position on that hasn't really changed all that much.
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Jeff's position was that he's too inconsistent to be trusted. And he's been absolutely 100% right. And now he's basically unstartable - that game against the Vikings was a travesty and was one of the best match ups he'll get this year. When are you supposed to start this guy and feel good about it?The last was a rhetorical question - you can't feel good about having to start him. And by the time he turns it around to the point you'd have enough confidence to give him a chance again the damage will probably already have been done for your team.
 
BoltBacker said:
Gr00vus said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
:thumbup: Sorry, I thought this was a Rivers thread....
Click to expand...
It's already been firmly established that you were right and Rivers does indeed suck.
Click to expand...
I still don't think he sucks, just like I said Eli Manning didn't suck last year when people were ready to jump off bridges because of his poor play, but he is not playing well to be sure. IMO there are several factors that contribute to his poor performences but I'll admit earlier in the year I felt like he was a solid every week starter but this year he's been a QBBC. It's still fair to note that based on where he was being drafted he was likely drafted as a QBBC. He may be a slight bust(QB16 this year with an ADP of QB11) but there are much, much bigger busts out there. IMO very few people had their season ruined by Rivers drafted #79 overall when compared to Young(#76ADP), Bulger(#37ADP), Brees(#30ADP) or even Palmer(#22ADP).My position on that hasn't really changed all that much.
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Well, to be serious once again, many Rivers backers had him as a CLEAR #1 starting QB for FF purposes, and I was criticized for having him as a deep backup QB2. If you're willing to say any QB between QB9 and QB16 are QBBC guys, I'll give you that much - but I had him beyond that. Several people had Rivers above that level, which I vehemently opposed.As for him sucking - I give him the benefit of some doubt that he can still grow and develop - but my severe warning was all about FF for 2007.
 
Gr00vus said:
BoltBacker said:
Gr00vus said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
:hijacked: Sorry, I thought this was a Rivers thread....
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It's already been firmly established that you were right and Rivers does indeed suck.
Click to expand...
I still don't think he sucks, just like I said Eli Manning didn't suck last year when people were ready to jump off bridges because of his poor play, but he is not playing well to be sure. IMO there are several factors that contribute to his poor performences but I'll admit earlier in the year I felt like he was a solid every week starter but this year he's been a QBBC. It's still fair to note that based on where he was being drafted he was likely drafted as a QBBC. He may be a slight bust(QB16 this year with an ADP of QB11) but there are much, much bigger busts out there. IMO very few people had their season ruined by Rivers drafted #79 overall when compared to Young(#76ADP), Bulger(#37ADP), Brees(#30ADP) or even Palmer(#22ADP).My position on that hasn't really changed all that much.
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Jeff's position was that he's too inconsistent to be trusted. And he's been absolutely 100% right. And now he's basically unstartable - that game against the Vikings was a travesty and was one of the best match ups he'll get this year. When are you supposed to start this guy and feel good about it?The last was a rhetorical question - you can't feel good about having to start him. And by the time he turns it around to the point you'd have enough confidence to give him a chance again the damage will probably already have been done for your team.
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:lmao: Well stated. :thumbup:
 
Family Matters said:
tommyGunZ said:
Family Matters said:
He knew where was leading. It's bad enough that he worked agaisnt his coach but he didn't protect the team's best interest when he failed to act in order to keep 1 of their coordinators as a possible replacement. Now the team chemistry appears damaged. They are not responding well to the changes and that's on AJ.
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If either Cam Cameron or Wade Phillips hadn't gotten their respective gigs, I believe Marty would still be the HC in San Diego. The Chargers would have promoted a coordinator from within to fill the open coordinator position.When both Cameron and Phillips were offered the head jobs, it put the Bolts in a tough spot.
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This is an interesting point. Why do you feel that way? Why would having 1 of them keep Marty in the mix?
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Marty's knock was the over-conservative play calling. When he let Cam start calling them last year the team did significantly better (I believe this was after the Ravens game). I'm pretty confident that if Cam stayed Marty would have stayed. They wanted to keep the same offense intact and that would have allowed it. If Wade remained instead of Cam I still think they would have dumped Marty and made him the HC instead, which might have worked out.
 
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Jeff Pasquino said:
BoltBacker said:
Gr00vus said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
;) Sorry, I thought this was a Rivers thread....
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It's already been firmly established that you were right and Rivers does indeed suck.
Click to expand...
I still don't think he sucks, just like I said Eli Manning didn't suck last year when people were ready to jump off bridges because of his poor play, but he is not playing well to be sure. IMO there are several factors that contribute to his poor performences but I'll admit earlier in the year I felt like he was a solid every week starter but this year he's been a QBBC. It's still fair to note that based on where he was being drafted he was likely drafted as a QBBC. He may be a slight bust(QB16 this year with an ADP of QB11) but there are much, much bigger busts out there. IMO very few people had their season ruined by Rivers drafted #79 overall when compared to Young(#76ADP), Bulger(#37ADP), Brees(#30ADP) or even Palmer(#22ADP).My position on that hasn't really changed all that much.
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Well, to be serious once again, many Rivers backers had him as a CLEAR #1 starting QB for FF purposes, and I was criticized for having him as a deep backup QB2. If you're willing to say any QB between QB9 and QB16 are QBBC guys, I'll give you that much - but I had him beyond that. Several people had Rivers above that level, which I vehemently opposed.As for him sucking - I give him the benefit of some doubt that he can still grow and develop - but my severe warning was all about FF for 2007.
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I think this list is pretty much unchanged;Here's your list of guy after Rivers ADP that were better options and could have been had even cheaper than Rivers...Leinart -Hasselbeck +Cutler +Favre +Eli +Grossman -Losman -Smith -Schaub -Delhomme -I guess some of it just comes down to what type of league you're in. If you're in a league where you can just pick up starters anytime you want off the WW then maybe that list looks better.
 
I've been preaching this since last season. I've said it numerous times in past Rivers' threads on this board, and I said it pages ago in this very thread. Everytime I say it I am met with opposition but I think people are beginning to see the light (I know defenses are):

Phillip Rivers has a Chad Pennington-esqu rag arm!

His arm is pathetic. He can not throw the ball with velocity outside the hashes toward the sidelines (especially not more then 7+ yards down the field) and teams recognize this. They are forcing him to throw lofting passes to the middle of the field which gives three defenders time to break on the ball. His own physical limitation is taking away as much as 50% of the playing field for him which makes defending him that much easier then 95% of all other pro QBs who have Pro QB caliber arms.

Sorry to say it Chargers fans but I'm a Jets fan and I've seen this whole thing unravel once before. Chad lit the league on fire in 2002 (his first year starting) throwing 22 TDs and 6 INTs in only 12 games. He never threw 20 TDs again. Teams forced him to play infront of them by stacking up 10 or more yards down the field knowing he couldn't fit the ball in tight spaces. He began taking what they were giving him (short passes and dumpoffs) and as soon as he'd release the ball, all the players playing deeper in coverage would swarm in and tackle the receiver or back for a minimal gain. They dictated how the Jets would play offense ..... never the other way around.

Defenses are now dictating the game to Rivers and not him to them. It will get worse before it gets better. At least on your side you have two better offensive weapons (Gates and LT) then the Jets ever had. I doubt it will change much though. The book on Rivers is out ......

 
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Rivers has killed me. I had the opportunity to trade him in week 1 for Hasselbeck and declined...

I can't believe how much he's regressed this year... Norv is supposed to be a guy who helps young QB's take it to the next level. Instead he's made a joke of that offense.

 
Lemmiwinks said:
Rivers has killed me. I had the opportunity to trade him in week 1 for Hasselbeck and declined... I can't believe how much he's regressed this year... Norv is supposed to be a guy who helps young QB's take it to the next level. Instead he's made a joke of that offense.
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Defenses and defensive coordinators are on to him. They know he can't make throws in crowds dowfield so they give him the b.s. short stuff and take away any impact plays. This forces Rivers to be absolutely perfect in his short passes and his decision making all they way down the field because they are really preventing anything 10 yards and deeper.Its an ugly vicous cycle you're going to see unfold here. He doesn't have the physical tools to be a big time NFL QB. Think of him as the opposite of Rex Grossman.
 
BoltBacker said:
Family Matters said:
tommyGunZ said:
Family Matters said:
He knew where was leading. It's bad enough that he worked agaisnt his coach but he didn't protect the team's best interest when he failed to act in order to keep 1 of their coordinators as a possible replacement. Now the team chemistry appears damaged. They are not responding well to the changes and that's on AJ.
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If either Cam Cameron or Wade Phillips hadn't gotten their respective gigs, I believe Marty would still be the HC in San Diego. The Chargers would have promoted a coordinator from within to fill the open coordinator position.When both Cameron and Phillips were offered the head jobs, it put the Bolts in a tough spot.
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This is an interesting point. Why do you feel that way? Why would having 1 of them keep Marty in the mix?
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You do realize that the reason Schottenheimer got fired by Spanos was he brought in his brother Kurt to interview for the DEFENSIVE COORDINATOR JOB(vacated by Wade) after Spanos specifically told Marty not to, right? If Wade was still there I'm doubting they are interviewing anyone, let alone Marty's brother for the job.Even if you're right and they pushed Marty out of the job then the reason they specifically brought Norv Turner in is because his offense was supposed to the basis for the Cam Cameron offense and would cause the smallest amount of change from one of the most successful offenses in the NFL last season. If they still had Cam Cameron I don't see any reason they need to bring Norv Turner in and "push out" Marty if Cam is going to be running the offense anyway.For someone that has such strong opinions on the Chargers you seem very fuzzy as to the particulars of what actually happened last off season.
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So you brlieve that the "ONLY" reason Marty was fired is because he wanted to interview his brother? I can't imagine anyone actually thinks that after all the reports that have been out there. But you seem yo believe that. So no, I highly doubt having either of these coordinators around would have stopped what happened. Maybe it unfolds differently but it still happens. Marty (like most coaches) isn't going to be told how to coach his team. That's what he's paid for, to coach and that involves the ability to hire your guys to help you accomplish the task for which you were hired to do. The only way he survives is to become a coach with no authority and that never works. Just ask Norv.As for the Turner hiring, everyone knew it was a mistake to hire him. Many of you that like to argue with me about AJ even knew it was a bad decision. Some of us knew it likely wasn't going to work out for the better of the team. And so far that seems to be the case. He's a fantastic coordinator but a head coach he is not. And it's not like he has some sort of track record to support it was a good decision to hire him.So it would appear that AJ simply made another mistake.
 
Lemmiwinks said:
Rivers has killed me. I had the opportunity to trade him in week 1 for Hasselbeck and declined... I can't believe how much he's regressed this year... Norv is supposed to be a guy who helps young QB's take it to the next level. Instead he's made a joke of that offense.
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I'm surprised too. Norv has had great success in the past in developing QB's and RB's. To see Rivers regress is not what I would of thought to happen. In fact, I didn't think anyone could make LT look bad, but he has. Of course LT is still on track for a season of 1303-14 and 1781 combined yards and 16 TD's. Just seems bad for LT.
 
BoltBacker said:
Family Matters said:
So you brlieve that the "ONLY" reason Marty was fired is because he wanted to interview his brother? I can't imagine anyone actually thinks that after all the reports that have been out there.
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What reports?
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Let's not go through this again. Go back and look up news for the Chargers. It was covered fairly extensively. The national media tlaks about it most every week and yet you act like it doesn't exist. Guess if you ignore it you can deny it. Here is one the most recent examples from Michael Silver yesterday:
Belatedly, coach Marty Schottenheimer was fired, the casualty of a power struggle with general manager A.J. Smith.
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BoltBacker said:
Family Matters said:
Here is one the most recent examples from Michael Silver yesterday:
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Who is Michael Silver?
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A national sports columnist who is known to have a strong anti-Chargers, anti-Spanos, anti-A.J. Smith bias (hmm.. maybe Family Matters is a Michael Silver alias?)..FM, you do realize that even though the national media picks up a story angle and runs with it, it doesn't make it the truth. If you are willing to take Mr. Silver's one sentence account of what happened over Jim Trotter's full article describing in detail what led to Marty's dismissal when Trotter was the Union-Trib's Chargers reporter, well that is your prerogative. But it doesn't make it reality.

Now, if you want to say the Marty no longer wanted to be head coach of the Chargers because of his conflict with A.J. Smith, and took actions to get himself fired, you may have a point. But if that is the case, why not just resign? And even if he decided to get himself fired because of that, that doesn't mean A.J. ousted him in a power struggle. That just means Marty wasn't willing to work for A.J. Smith and Dean Spanos under the conditions they set. Obviously, other coaches were and are.

I agree that Turner didn't look like a great hire at the time (and even worse now), but I understood the reason for the choice. I just thought it was a poor reason for choosing a proven mediocre coach (generous?) over an untested rookie head coach.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
ICWT10 said:
simey said:
ICWT10 said:
He doesn't have the physical tools to be a big time NFL QB.
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Yes he does. I don't know what is wrong with him this year, but he does have the physical tools, and the intellectual tools, to be a big time NFL QB.
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Yes or no answer please:Does Phillip Rivers have a strong (or even "good") arm by NFL standards?
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It's better than Tom Brady's.
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:thumbdown: Holy ****. That is the craziest thing I've read in a long, LONG time. :bowtie:
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
ICWT10 said:
simey said:
ICWT10 said:
He doesn't have the physical tools to be a big time NFL QB.
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Yes he does. I don't know what is wrong with him this year, but he does have the physical tools, and the intellectual tools, to be a big time NFL QB.
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Yes or no answer please:Does Phillip Rivers have a strong (or even "good") arm by NFL standards?
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It's better than Tom Brady's.
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I'm curious as to what your definition of "better" is. Judging strictly off of watching them play I disagree.
 
Gr00vus said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
ICWT10 said:
simey said:
ICWT10 said:
He doesn't have the physical tools to be a big time NFL QB.
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Yes he does. I don't know what is wrong with him this year, but he does have the physical tools, and the intellectual tools, to be a big time NFL QB.
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Yes or no answer please:Does Phillip Rivers have a strong (or even "good") arm by NFL standards?
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It's better than Tom Brady's.
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I'm curious as to what your definition of "better" is. Judging strictly off of watching them play I disagree.
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I'm assuming he means Rivers can either throw further or faster than Brady. A couple of years ago I might have agreed but I think Brady's arm strength is better than it used to be.He's not saying Brady is a better QB. I think he's just pointing out that arm-strength isn't the end-all for evaluating a QB. If it was Jeff George would be a HOF'er. For that matter Leaf had a very strong arm.
 
BoltBacker said:
I'm assuming he means Rivers can either throw further or faster than Brady. A couple of years ago I might have agreed but I think Brady's arm strength is better than it used to be.He's not saying Brady is a better QB. I think he's just pointing out that arm-strength isn't the end-all for evaluating a QB. If it was Jeff George would be a HOF'er. For that matter Leaf had a very strong arm.
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I understood what he's saying. I'm saying, given that neither one compares to a guy like Favre for quality of arm, I can't think of any area in which Rivers' arm has looked better to me than Brady's, this year or last year or any year. And this year it's not even close. In fact I explicitly put concerns forward about Rivers' arm after seeing him in preseason his rookie year, low strength, tendancy to float passes, bad delivery, inconsistent spiral. But others assured me there was nothing to worry about. It looks to me like they're wrong.
 
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Gr00vus said:
BoltBacker said:
I'm assuming he means Rivers can either throw further or faster than Brady. A couple of years ago I might have agreed but I think Brady's arm strength is better than it used to be.He's not saying Brady is a better QB. I think he's just pointing out that arm-strength isn't the end-all for evaluating a QB. If it was Jeff George would be a HOF'er. For that matter Leaf had a very strong arm.
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I understood what he's saying. I'm saying, given that neither one compares to a guy like Favre for quality of arm, I can't think of any area in which Rivers' arm has looked better to me than Brady's, this year or last year or any year. And this year it's not even close. In fact I explicitly put concerns forward about Rivers' arm after seeing him in preseason his rookie year, low strength, tendancy to float passes, bad delivery, inconsistent spiral. But others assured me there was nothing to worry about. It looks to me like they're wrong.
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I'm with you man.From the first time I ever saw Rivers play last season (I had the Sunday ticket and LT was on my fantasy team so I watched 100% of Chargers games) and I saw his (lack of) physical skills my first thought was, "This is it?" "This guy went top 4 in the draft?" I couldn't believe me eyes.Even as his efficient stats continued to pile up, I continued to claim that he would plummet to earth hard as soon as teams figured him out. He just does not have the physical skills to be a top NFL QB. Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.And to say that Rivers' arm is better then Brady's is absurd. I don't think Brady's arm really "got better" as people like to say. I just think up until about 3-4 years ago Belichick always made Brady be a game manager and didn't want him making high-risk throws. Either way, while Brady's arm is not on the level of Favre's, or Palmer's, or Manning's ..... his arm is ridiculously stronger then Phillip Rivers'.Rivers' arm is bottom 5 in the NFL amongst starting QBs. Now that Pennington is no longer a starter .... I can't name a starting QB with a weaker arm then Rivers.
 
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Jeff Pasquino said:
Stop it about the armstrength already. Jeff George had one of the strongest arms ever, and he stinks.It's overrated.
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Taken from my own post directly below yours. Maybe in the 1970's or the 1980's even it wasn't all so important, but it is now:Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.
 
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If Rivers has a clean pocket to step up and throw from he has "good" arm strength. That rarely happens in the NFL and his footwork/arm angle/etc all seem to get out of whack when the pressure is there.

IMO Philip River's arm strength isn't what's keeping him from being a better player this season. The pressure being applied to him is greater than last season and as a result he is making poor decisions and turning the ball over more.

 
ICWT10 said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
Stop it about the armstrength already. Jeff George had one of the strongest arms ever, and he stinks.It's overrated.
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Taken from my own post directly below yours. Maybe in the 1970's or the 1980's even it wasn't all so important, but it is now:Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.
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I will give you that arm strength matters more than it did before due to the speed of the game, but touch / location / accuracy is far more important.Alex Smith lost a TD on MNF because he didn't put air under the ball last night. Pure case in point there. I don't care if you can throw it 50, 60 or 70 MPH - you needed it to arc down the field and land in the right space at the right time. Next example - Rex Grossman. He comes in and throws a picture perfect bomb - and it was all about arc / timing / location to Berrian. Yes, he did have to throw it 50+ yards in the air, but it wasn't about getting it there ASAP. He delivered the ball as it should be delivered and arm strength had far less to do with it than timing, location and accuracy.I'm not supporting Rivers' arm mind you, but I do believe his arm is good enough. His timing, however, I've called into question many times.
 
Walter Slovotsky said:
BoltBacker said:
Family Matters said:
Here is one the most recent examples from Michael Silver yesterday:
Click to expand...
Who is Michael Silver?
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A national sports columnist who is known to have a strong anti-Chargers, anti-Spanos, anti-A.J. Smith bias (hmm.. maybe Family Matters is a Michael Silver alias?)..FM, you do realize that even though the national media picks up a story angle and runs with it, it doesn't make it the truth. If you are willing to take Mr. Silver's one sentence account of what happened over Jim Trotter's full article describing in detail what led to Marty's dismissal when Trotter was the Union-Trib's Chargers reporter, well that is your prerogative. But it doesn't make it reality.

Now, if you want to say the Marty no longer wanted to be head coach of the Chargers because of his conflict with A.J. Smith, and took actions to get himself fired, you may have a point. But if that is the case, why not just resign? And even if he decided to get himself fired because of that, that doesn't mean A.J. ousted him in a power struggle. That just means Marty wasn't willing to work for A.J. Smith and Dean Spanos under the conditions they set. Obviously, other coaches were and are.

I agree that Turner didn't look like a great hire at the time (and even worse now), but I understood the reason for the choice. I just thought it was a poor reason for choosing a proven mediocre coach (generous?) over an untested rookie head coach.
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Thanks for sharing the article. I had not seen it. Sounds like they pretty well covered most of the factors that I had been hearing. And while Spanos was the one who pulled the trigger, I'm sure it was going to happen anyway. At least based on what we had been hearing through the media. And you can't have a non-talking relationship between the coach and GM and expect it to work. I guess it's amazing they as well they did last year.But Silver's article was more than a 1 line item. He based this off player interviews. The local media acknowledges his writtings as having merit although he does appear to be biased against the Chargers as an organization. But when Acee is confirming what Silver wrote because he has heard the same comments from the players as well then you have to take note.

I also wonder what impact, if any, that the relationship of the head coach in this organization has or will impact their ability to find the right guy. It seems clear they want a yes man that will not be a take charge leader. They want a passive type that will do whatever they say. Problem with that is most good coaches would never work under those conditions. Turner was a good hire in that AJ can control him. And while Turner has had great success as a coordinator, Turner just isn't a good HC.

 
Jeff Pasquino said:
ICWT10 said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
Stop it about the armstrength already. Jeff George had one of the strongest arms ever, and he stinks.It's overrated.
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Taken from my own post directly below yours. Maybe in the 1970's or the 1980's even it wasn't all so important, but it is now:Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.
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I will give you that arm strength matters more than it did before due to the speed of the game, but touch / location / accuracy is far more important.Alex Smith lost a TD on MNF because he didn't put air under the ball last night. Pure case in point there. I don't care if you can throw it 50, 60 or 70 MPH - you needed it to arc down the field and land in the right space at the right time. Next example - Rex Grossman. He comes in and throws a picture perfect bomb - and it was all about arc / timing / location to Berrian. Yes, he did have to throw it 50+ yards in the air, but it wasn't about getting it there ASAP. He delivered the ball as it should be delivered and arm strength had far less to do with it than timing, location and accuracy.I'm not supporting Rivers' arm mind you, but I do believe his arm is good enough. His timing, however, I've called into question many times.
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Arm strength is not about throwing the ball 50 yards downfield. Crap, I saw Chad Pennington throw a ball 55 yards in the air with a torn rotator cuff to Santana Moss over two defenders for a TD in the 2004 wild card game vs. San Diego with a wet football. Any QB who can step up in the pocket and heave it high in the air can throw it 50+ yards.Arm strength is being able to throw the 20 yard out pattern with authority. Arm strength is being able to fit the ball between a zone defense for a 12 yard pickup on 3rd and 9 when the entire defensive zone is playing 8 yards or deeper. Arm strength is being able to use the sidelines, both sidelines, regardless of what side hash mark the ball is on. Etc.Phillip Rivers can throw the ball 50 yards downfield with arc, touch, etc. Every QB in the NFL can. The throws that limit him as a QB are the throws I listed above. He can not use the entire field effectively at all times which cuts down the amount of field a defense has to worry about when defending him.For example:If the ball is set up pre-snap on the left hash marks, the right sideline is out of use for Rivers. This scenario is hard for lots of QBs .... but it is OUT OF USE for Rivers.
 
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Family Matters said:
Thanks for sharing the article. I had not seen it. Sounds like they pretty well covered most of the factors that I had been hearing. And while Spanos was the one who pulled the trigger, I'm sure it was going to happen anyway. At least based on what we had been hearing through the media. And you can't have a non-talking relationship between the coach and GM and expect it to work. I guess it's amazing they as well they did last year.
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???From the article you're talking about..."No doubt, Smith disliked Schottenheimer. But he had nothing to do with the firing. The only person in the organization with the authority to fire a head coach is Spanos, and he did so in this instance because of a disagreement with Schottenheimer over the coaching staff..........Spanos cited the "dysfunctional relationship" between Schottenheimer and Smith as the reason for the move, but that was hogwash. Schottenheimer and Smith had barely spoken in a year and Spanos was fine with it. Plus, just a month earlier Spanos had announced Schottenheimer would return for a sixth season.The dismissal was strictly because Schottenheimer stood up to the team owner. When he informed Schottenheimer of the change, Spanos told him he had never seen Schottenheimer act like that. He told Schottenheimer that he had changed. Spanos was right, of course. Schottenheimer was tired of feeling like an outsider in his own organization, so he drew a bright line and crossed. Then he collected his $4 million salary and returned to his offseason home in North Carolina, where he could spend time with his daughter and grandkids.As popular as it is to lay the blame of Schottenheimer's ouster on Smith, Spanos is the one whose fingerprints were on the pink slip. There was no way he was going to allow an employee to openly defy one of his organizational tenets. So go ahead and rip Smith for hiring Turner, who came to town with a 58-82-1 record after failing in Washington and Oakland. But any venom about the firing of Schottenheimer will have to be spewed in another direction."????Yeah, that's pretty much what you'd been hearing? It was Spanos's decision all along and Smith didn't like Marty "BUT HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FIRING".
 
ICWT10 said:
I'm with you man.

From the first time I ever saw Rivers play last season (I had the Sunday ticket and LT was on my fantasy team so I watched 100% of Chargers games) and I saw his (lack of) physical skills my first thought was, "This is it?" "This guy went top 4 in the draft?" I couldn't believe me eyes.

Even as his efficient stats continued to pile up, I continued to claim that he would plummet to earth hard as soon as teams figured him out. He just does not have the physical skills to be a top NFL QB. Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.

And to say that Rivers' arm is better then Brady's is absurd. I don't think Brady's arm really "got better" as people like to say. I just think up until about 3-4 years ago Belichick always made Brady be a game manager and didn't want him making high-risk throws. Either way, while Brady's arm is not on the level of Favre's, or Palmer's, or Manning's ..... his arm is ridiculously stronger then Phillip Rivers'.

Rivers' arm is bottom 5 in the NFL amongst starting QBs. Now that Pennington is no longer a starter .... I can't name a starting QB with a weaker arm then Rivers.
Click to expand...
Jeff Garica might be the only starter with a weaker arm. But even that is debatable. Rivers has that ugly release too. He's shown some flashes and he supposedly has the leadership qualities and other intangibles. But I haven't seen anything from him this season. He's regressed quite a bit.
 
TwinTurbo said:
ICWT10 said:
I'm with you man.

From the first time I ever saw Rivers play last season (I had the Sunday ticket and LT was on my fantasy team so I watched 100% of Chargers games) and I saw his (lack of) physical skills my first thought was, "This is it?" "This guy went top 4 in the draft?" I couldn't believe me eyes.

Even as his efficient stats continued to pile up, I continued to claim that he would plummet to earth hard as soon as teams figured him out. He just does not have the physical skills to be a top NFL QB. Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.

And to say that Rivers' arm is better then Brady's is absurd. I don't think Brady's arm really "got better" as people like to say. I just think up until about 3-4 years ago Belichick always made Brady be a game manager and didn't want him making high-risk throws. Either way, while Brady's arm is not on the level of Favre's, or Palmer's, or Manning's ..... his arm is ridiculously stronger then Phillip Rivers'.

Rivers' arm is bottom 5 in the NFL amongst starting QBs. Now that Pennington is no longer a starter .... I can't name a starting QB with a weaker arm then Rivers.
Click to expand...
Jeff Garica might be the only starter with a weaker arm. But even that is debatable. Rivers has that ugly release too. He's shown some flashes and he supposedly has the leadership qualities and other intangibles. But I haven't seen anything from him this season. He's regressed quite a bit.
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Like you said, he "might have" a weaker arm. I personally don't think he does. Even if he did though, he has a much quicker release that helps the ball get to its destination faster and he brings more to the table in terms of other physical abilities (his legs and escapeability) that aid him as a QB.The thing that is so bad about Rivers is he is a pocket passer and really nothing more who has a weak arm. Again, being a Jets fan I can tell you, it is a recipe for disaster. In today's day and age of the NFL with freak athletes at every posistion on defense, you don't have to have Brett Favre's arm, but a water pistol will no longer due like maybe it would have even as recentley as the mid-to-late 1990's.

 
ICWT10 said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
ICWT10 said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
Stop it about the armstrength already. Jeff George had one of the strongest arms ever, and he stinks.It's overrated.
Click to expand...
Taken from my own post directly below yours. Maybe in the 1970's or the 1980's even it wasn't all so important, but it is now:Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.
Click to expand...
I will give you that arm strength matters more than it did before due to the speed of the game, but touch / location / accuracy is far more important.Alex Smith lost a TD on MNF because he didn't put air under the ball last night. Pure case in point there. I don't care if you can throw it 50, 60 or 70 MPH - you needed it to arc down the field and land in the right space at the right time. Next example - Rex Grossman. He comes in and throws a picture perfect bomb - and it was all about arc / timing / location to Berrian. Yes, he did have to throw it 50+ yards in the air, but it wasn't about getting it there ASAP. He delivered the ball as it should be delivered and arm strength had far less to do with it than timing, location and accuracy.I'm not supporting Rivers' arm mind you, but I do believe his arm is good enough. His timing, however, I've called into question many times.
Click to expand...
Arm strength is not about throwing the ball 50 yards downfield. Crap, I saw Chad Pennington throw a ball 55 yards in the air with a torn rotator cuff to Santana Moss over two defenders for a TD in the 2004 wild card game vs. San Diego with a wet football. Any QB who can step up in the pocket and heave it high in the air can throw it 50+ yards.Arm strength is being able to throw the 20 yard out pattern with authority. Arm strength is being able to fit the ball between a zone defense for a 12 yard pickup on 3rd and 9 when the entire defensive zone is playing 8 yards or deeper. Arm strength is being able to use the sidelines, both sidelines, regardless of what side hash mark the ball is on. Etc.Phillip Rivers can throw the ball 50 yards downfield with arc, touch, etc. Every QB in the NFL can. The throws that limit him as a QB are the throws I listed above. He can not use the entire field effectively at all times which cuts down the amount of field a defense has to worry about when defending him.For example:If the ball is set up pre-snap on the left hash marks, the right sideline is out of use for Rivers. This scenario is hard for lots of QBs .... but it is OUT OF USE for Rivers.
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Very ;)
 
Why did this thread die during the weeks immediately following the Green Bay, Denver, and Houston games?

 
Despyzer said:
Why did this thread die during the weeks immediately following the Green Bay, Denver, and Houston games?
Click to expand...
Phil looked bad in that one too, and I was right here saying it, if not in this thread, than in the actual game thread. He looks completely out of his element at this point. I really think he needs to be sat down for a game or two, not because I think Volek or Whitehurst are better, but because he obviously needs to get his bearings back.
 
RBM said:
ICWT10 said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
ICWT10 said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
Stop it about the armstrength already. Jeff George had one of the strongest arms ever, and he stinks.It's overrated.
Click to expand...
Taken from my own post directly below yours. Maybe in the 1970's or the 1980's even it wasn't all so important, but it is now:Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.
Click to expand...
I will give you that arm strength matters more than it did before due to the speed of the game, but touch / location / accuracy is far more important.Alex Smith lost a TD on MNF because he didn't put air under the ball last night. Pure case in point there. I don't care if you can throw it 50, 60 or 70 MPH - you needed it to arc down the field and land in the right space at the right time. Next example - Rex Grossman. He comes in and throws a picture perfect bomb - and it was all about arc / timing / location to Berrian. Yes, he did have to throw it 50+ yards in the air, but it wasn't about getting it there ASAP. He delivered the ball as it should be delivered and arm strength had far less to do with it than timing, location and accuracy.I'm not supporting Rivers' arm mind you, but I do believe his arm is good enough. His timing, however, I've called into question many times.
Click to expand...
Arm strength is not about throwing the ball 50 yards downfield. Crap, I saw Chad Pennington throw a ball 55 yards in the air with a torn rotator cuff to Santana Moss over two defenders for a TD in the 2004 wild card game vs. San Diego with a wet football. Any QB who can step up in the pocket and heave it high in the air can throw it 50+ yards.Arm strength is being able to throw the 20 yard out pattern with authority. Arm strength is being able to fit the ball between a zone defense for a 12 yard pickup on 3rd and 9 when the entire defensive zone is playing 8 yards or deeper. Arm strength is being able to use the sidelines, both sidelines, regardless of what side hash mark the ball is on. Etc.Phillip Rivers can throw the ball 50 yards downfield with arc, touch, etc. Every QB in the NFL can. The throws that limit him as a QB are the throws I listed above. He can not use the entire field effectively at all times which cuts down the amount of field a defense has to worry about when defending him.For example:If the ball is set up pre-snap on the left hash marks, the right sideline is out of use for Rivers. This scenario is hard for lots of QBs .... but it is OUT OF USE for Rivers.
Click to expand...
Very :shrug:
Click to expand...
Thanks.I think that is the biggest misconception about arm strength there is. Even professional commentators like Terrell Davis and Mike Ditka don't understand it. Before Pennington got benched in New York, he threw a 45 yard in the air TD pass to a WIDE OPEN Laveraneus Coles on a blown coverage vs. the Bengals. Terrell Davis and Mike Ditka the next day both said the same thing, "I thought this guy was supposed to be getting replaced because he has a weak arm. His arm is fine. He can make all the throws and that there is proof."That throw means nothing. All NFL QBs can make that throw. 45 yards long, 45 foot arc to a wide open WR down the field with no defender around him. That throw is not hard. 70% of the guys on this board can make that throw. It is the 20 yard out pattern that needs to be thrown with zip; It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver that Pennington (and Rivers) can't make.His own physical limitations will be his downfall.
 
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ICWT10 said:
RBM said:
ICWT10 said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
ICWT10 said:
Jeff Pasquino said:
Stop it about the armstrength already. Jeff George had one of the strongest arms ever, and he stinks.It's overrated.
Click to expand...
Taken from my own post directly below yours. Maybe in the 1970's or the 1980's even it wasn't all so important, but it is now:Arm strength isn't everything ..... but it has become a much bigger thing then in years past. Defensive players at every position are significantly bigger and faster then ever before in the NFL. 260 pound LBs are close to as fast as CBs used to be and CBs now run 4.3 forty yard dash times. A stronger arm is more necessary in today's NFL then it has ever been in years past and Rivers just doesn't have the arm to keep defenses playing defense. Defenses now go on the offensive vs. him because he does not scare them.
Click to expand...
I will give you that arm strength matters more than it did before due to the speed of the game, but touch / location / accuracy is far more important.Alex Smith lost a TD on MNF because he didn't put air under the ball last night. Pure case in point there. I don't care if you can throw it 50, 60 or 70 MPH - you needed it to arc down the field and land in the right space at the right time. Next example - Rex Grossman. He comes in and throws a picture perfect bomb - and it was all about arc / timing / location to Berrian. Yes, he did have to throw it 50+ yards in the air, but it wasn't about getting it there ASAP. He delivered the ball as it should be delivered and arm strength had far less to do with it than timing, location and accuracy.I'm not supporting Rivers' arm mind you, but I do believe his arm is good enough. His timing, however, I've called into question many times.
Click to expand...
Arm strength is not about throwing the ball 50 yards downfield. Crap, I saw Chad Pennington throw a ball 55 yards in the air with a torn rotator cuff to Santana Moss over two defenders for a TD in the 2004 wild card game vs. San Diego with a wet football. Any QB who can step up in the pocket and heave it high in the air can throw it 50+ yards.Arm strength is being able to throw the 20 yard out pattern with authority. Arm strength is being able to fit the ball between a zone defense for a 12 yard pickup on 3rd and 9 when the entire defensive zone is playing 8 yards or deeper. Arm strength is being able to use the sidelines, both sidelines, regardless of what side hash mark the ball is on. Etc.Phillip Rivers can throw the ball 50 yards downfield with arc, touch, etc. Every QB in the NFL can. The throws that limit him as a QB are the throws I listed above. He can not use the entire field effectively at all times which cuts down the amount of field a defense has to worry about when defending him.For example:If the ball is set up pre-snap on the left hash marks, the right sideline is out of use for Rivers. This scenario is hard for lots of QBs .... but it is OUT OF USE for Rivers.
Click to expand...
Very :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Thanks.I think that is the biggest misconception about arm strength there is. Even professional commentators like Terrell Davis and Mike Ditka don't understand it. Before Pennington got benched in New York, he threw a 45 yard in the air TD pass to a WIDE OPEN Laveraneus Coles on a blown coverage vs. the Bengals. Terrell Davis and Mike Ditka the next day both said the same thing, "I thought this guy was supposed to be getting replaced because he has a weak arm. His arm is fine. He can make all the throws and that there is proof."That throw means nothing. All NFL QBs can make that throw. 45 yards long, 45 foot arc to a wide open WR down the field with no defender around him. That throw is not hard. 70% of the guys on this board can make that throw. It is the 20 yard out pattern that needs to be thrown with zip; It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver that Pennington (and Rivers) can't make.His own physical limitations will be his downfall.
Click to expand...
It's more than this. His accuracy on just about anything is shot. He can't even hit LT on swing passes and screens. He wasn't this way last year. I don't know why he has regressed so much, but there is definitely something more going on than just arm strength. The guy drops back and goes into immediate panic mode.
 
Family Matters said:
Walter Slovotsky said:
BoltBacker said:
Family Matters said:
Here is one the most recent examples from Michael Silver yesterday:
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Who is Michael Silver?
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A national sports columnist who is known to have a strong anti-Chargers, anti-Spanos, anti-A.J. Smith bias (hmm.. maybe Family Matters is a Michael Silver alias?)..FM, you do realize that even though the national media picks up a story angle and runs with it, it doesn't make it the truth. If you are willing to take Mr. Silver's one sentence account of what happened over Jim Trotter's full article describing in detail what led to Marty's dismissal when Trotter was the Union-Trib's Chargers reporter, well that is your prerogative. But it doesn't make it reality.

Now, if you want to say the Marty no longer wanted to be head coach of the Chargers because of his conflict with A.J. Smith, and took actions to get himself fired, you may have a point. But if that is the case, why not just resign? And even if he decided to get himself fired because of that, that doesn't mean A.J. ousted him in a power struggle. That just means Marty wasn't willing to work for A.J. Smith and Dean Spanos under the conditions they set. Obviously, other coaches were and are.

I agree that Turner didn't look like a great hire at the time (and even worse now), but I understood the reason for the choice. I just thought it was a poor reason for choosing a proven mediocre coach (generous?) over an untested rookie head coach.
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Thanks for sharing the article. I had not seen it. Sounds like they pretty well covered most of the factors that I had been hearing. And while Spanos was the one who pulled the trigger, I'm sure it was going to happen anyway. At least based on what we had been hearing through the media. And you can't have a non-talking relationship between the coach and GM and expect it to work. I guess it's amazing they as well they did last year.But Silver's article was more than a 1 line item. He based this off player interviews. The local media acknowledges his writtings as having merit although he does appear to be biased against the Chargers as an organization. But when Acee is confirming what Silver wrote because he has heard the same comments from the players as well then you have to take note.

I also wonder what impact, if any, that the relationship of the head coach in this organization has or will impact their ability to find the right guy. It seems clear they want a yes man that will not be a take charge leader. They want a passive type that will do whatever they say. Problem with that is most good coaches would never work under those conditions. Turner was a good hire in that AJ can control him. And while Turner has had great success as a coordinator, Turner just isn't a good HC.
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Actually, Acee will generally defer to Trotter when it comes to A.J./Marty/Dean issues, as he wasn't the Chargers beat reporter during that time. The only thing Acee has confirmed is the comments reported by Silver about player(s) having problems with the way the coaches are calling games. And Acee claims all of those quotes have come from one player. It isn't a good sign for the Chargers for these things to be aired in public, but if Acee is correct that is all coming from just one player, it probably isn't fatal. But the veteran leadership on that team needs to get their act together and police the clubhouse a little better. I disagree with you that the Chargers necesarrily want a yes man that won't be a leader. I don't think the Marty A.J. split had as much to do with leadership issues, as they just fundamentally disagreed on how to build and run a championship football team. Plus, Marty is an emotional, cheerleader type guy and A.J. just.. isn't. Classic personality conflict there.

As far hiring Norv because he would be a company man, I don't know if I completely agree with that. The Chargers front office stressed at the time that their top priority was to maintain continuity in the offensive and defensive schemes. They could hire Cotrell as DC to replace Wade, but they only way they were going to get Norv to run the offense was to hire him as the HC. The fact that he is a somewhat introverted personality is just a bonus. I don't think they would have hired Norv if they thought he was going to come in and install a WC offense, regardless of how well he would follow orders.

 
ICWT10 said:
Rivers' arm is bottom 5 in the NFL amongst starting QBs. Now that Pennington is no longer a starter .... I can't name a starting QB with a weaker arm then Rivers.
Click to expand...
Rivers has a stronger arm than Brady, IMO, but I haven't watched them throw the same passes side by side over the course of many reps. I have, however, watched Rivers and Brees throw the same passes side by side over many reps, and Rivers definitely has a stronger arm than Brees. He also has a stronger arm than Garcia and Warner, and possibly Bulger and Kitna. He also has a stronger arm than Trent Green, Chad Pennington, and Charlie Frye, all of whom opened the season as starters.He also has a stronger arm than Joe Montana did.The bottom line is that Rivers' arm strength, while below average for a top five pick, is sufficient to make all the passes required of an NFL quarterback.
 
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ICWT10 said:
It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver that Pennington (and Rivers) can't make.
Click to expand...
Don't confuse "doesn't always" for "can't." Rivers has thrown 17-yard outs with zip before, so he can do it. It's not his arm strength that's the problem. He's not stepping into his passes right now and is throwing off his back foot too often. But his arm strength is fine.
 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
ICWT10 said:
It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver that Pennington (and Rivers) can't make.
Click to expand...
Don't confuse "doesn't always" for "can't." Rivers has thrown 17-yard outs with zip before, so he can do it. It's not his arm strength that's the problem. He's not stepping into his passes right now and is throwing off his back foot too often. But his arm strength is fine.
Click to expand...
That is why his arm strength is a problem. QBs like Favre, both Mannings, Palmer, Romo, etc, etc do not have to step into their throws to make every throw necessary. Rivers needs a pocket he can step up into or he can't make nearly all the throws a NFL QB needs to make. Teams realize this and are sending the HOUSE at him and not allowing him to step into his throws. This is why he has looked so pathetic.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
ICWT10 said:
Rivers' arm is bottom 5 in the NFL amongst starting QBs. Now that Pennington is no longer a starter .... I can't name a starting QB with a weaker arm then Rivers.
Click to expand...
Rivers has a stronger arm than Brady, IMO, but I haven't watched them throw the same passes side by side over the course of many reps. I have, however, watched Rivers and Brees throw the same passes side by side over many reps, and Rivers definitely has a stronger arm than Brees. He also has a stronger arm than Garcia and Warner, and possibly Bulger and Kitna. He also has a stronger arm than Trent Green, Chad Pennington, and Charlie Frye, all of whom opened the season as starters.He also has a stronger arm than Joe Montana did.The bottom line is that Rivers' arm strength, while below average for a top five pick, is sufficient to make all the passes required of an NFL quarterback.
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Rivers' arm is nowhere near Brady's. It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'. Garcia and Warner are both similar but I still give them both the slight nod over Phillip. Bulger no way. Kitna .... maybe. Green, Pennington, and Frye? Come on now. Now we're reaching. They were all benched for extremely poor performance and Rivers is next.
 
ICWT10 said:
It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.
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You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
ICWT10 said:
Rivers' arm is bottom 5 in the NFL amongst starting QBs. Now that Pennington is no longer a starter .... I can't name a starting QB with a weaker arm then Rivers.
Click to expand...
Rivers has a stronger arm than Brady, IMO, but I haven't watched them throw the same passes side by side over the course of many reps. I have, however, watched Rivers and Brees throw the same passes side by side over many reps, and Rivers definitely has a stronger arm than Brees. He also has a stronger arm than Garcia and Warner, and possibly Bulger and Kitna. He also has a stronger arm than Trent Green, Chad Pennington, and Charlie Frye, all of whom opened the season as starters.He also has a stronger arm than Joe Montana did.The bottom line is that Rivers' arm strength, while below average for a top five pick, is sufficient to make all the passes required of an NFL quarterback.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with how you assess "arm strength".Rivers has crappy mechanics and throws the ball semi-side arm (3/4-ers delivery). He needs to be perfectly situated, step into his throw with his entire body and have clean follow through lane -- he needs all of this because his arm is weak.Other QB's that you have cited as having weaker arms such as Brady, Bulger, Warner (IMO, all incorrectly) can actually snap their wrist over hand and throw the ball with just their arm and still make NFL quality throws. They can do this because they have much better arm strength and thus they can much more frequently make "stronger" throws than Rivers in a real NFL game situation that doesn't always allow one to be pefectly set and take a run up like some sideline combine skills competition.
 
BoltBacker said:
ICWT10 said:
It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.
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You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
Click to expand...
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
BoltBacker said:
ICWT10 said:
It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.
Click to expand...
You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
Click to expand...
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
Click to expand...
Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
 
Mr. PadresLakers said:
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
BoltBacker said:
ICWT10 said:
It is also not a strong a Drew Brees'.
Click to expand...
You're just flat out wrong there.I think Brees can be a very, very good QB in the right situation but he'll never do this... "It is the 17 yard post pattern when both safeties are playing a deep Cover 2 and the MLB is in an intermediate zone and you have to zip it between all 3 of them before any or all can make a play on the ball or the receiver"
Click to expand...
brees is the better NFL QB, and thats all I really care about.
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Have you been watching Saints games lately? I wouldn't be any more comfortable with Brees as a starter than Rivers right now.
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yes I have and Brees isnt the reason that team looses, its the Defense or lack there of. Please.
 
Walter Slovotsky said:
Family Matters said:
Walter Slovotsky said:
BoltBacker said:
Family Matters said:
Here is one the most recent examples from Michael Silver yesterday:
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Who is Michael Silver?
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A national sports columnist who is known to have a strong anti-Chargers, anti-Spanos, anti-A.J. Smith bias (hmm.. maybe Family Matters is a Michael Silver alias?)..FM, you do realize that even though the national media picks up a story angle and runs with it, it doesn't make it the truth. If you are willing to take Mr. Silver's one sentence account of what happened over Jim Trotter's full article describing in detail what led to Marty's dismissal when Trotter was the Union-Trib's Chargers reporter, well that is your prerogative. But it doesn't make it reality.

Now, if you want to say the Marty no longer wanted to be head coach of the Chargers because of his conflict with A.J. Smith, and took actions to get himself fired, you may have a point. But if that is the case, why not just resign? And even if he decided to get himself fired because of that, that doesn't mean A.J. ousted him in a power struggle. That just means Marty wasn't willing to work for A.J. Smith and Dean Spanos under the conditions they set. Obviously, other coaches were and are.

I agree that Turner didn't look like a great hire at the time (and even worse now), but I understood the reason for the choice. I just thought it was a poor reason for choosing a proven mediocre coach (generous?) over an untested rookie head coach.
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Thanks for sharing the article. I had not seen it. Sounds like they pretty well covered most of the factors that I had been hearing. And while Spanos was the one who pulled the trigger, I'm sure it was going to happen anyway. At least based on what we had been hearing through the media. And you can't have a non-talking relationship between the coach and GM and expect it to work. I guess it's amazing they as well they did last year.But Silver's article was more than a 1 line item. He based this off player interviews. The local media acknowledges his writtings as having merit although he does appear to be biased against the Chargers as an organization. But when Acee is confirming what Silver wrote because he has heard the same comments from the players as well then you have to take note.

I also wonder what impact, if any, that the relationship of the head coach in this organization has or will impact their ability to find the right guy. It seems clear they want a yes man that will not be a take charge leader. They want a passive type that will do whatever they say. Problem with that is most good coaches would never work under those conditions. Turner was a good hire in that AJ can control him. And while Turner has had great success as a coordinator, Turner just isn't a good HC.
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Actually, Acee will generally defer to Trotter when it comes to A.J./Marty/Dean issues, as he wasn't the Chargers beat reporter during that time. The only thing Acee has confirmed is the comments reported by Silver about player(s) having problems with the way the coaches are calling games. And Acee claims all of those quotes have come from one player. It isn't a good sign for the Chargers for these things to be aired in public, but if Acee is correct that is all coming from just one player, it probably isn't fatal. But the veteran leadership on that team needs to get their act together and police the clubhouse a little better. I disagree with you that the Chargers necesarrily want a yes man that won't be a leader. I don't think the Marty A.J. split had as much to do with leadership issues, as they just fundamentally disagreed on how to build and run a championship football team. Plus, Marty is an emotional, cheerleader type guy and A.J. just.. isn't. Classic personality conflict there.

As far hiring Norv because he would be a company man, I don't know if I completely agree with that. The Chargers front office stressed at the time that their top priority was to maintain continuity in the offensive and defensive schemes. They could hire Cotrell as DC to replace Wade, but they only way they were going to get Norv to run the offense was to hire him as the HC. The fact that he is a somewhat introverted personality is just a bonus. I don't think they would have hired Norv if they thought he was going to come in and install a WC offense, regardless of how well he would follow orders.
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First off, nice take. Nice to have a two-way conversation without feeling attacked. You could be right about many things here but I have to wonder about the basic premise of your points. Think about the part where you said "I don't think the Marty A.J. split had as much to do with leadership issues, as they just fundamentally disagreed on how to build and run a championship football team." Marty was hired by Butler while AJ was there. And AJ is a Butler disciple so they are very much alike. So to suggest that they are fundamentaly opposed doesn't seem to make sense as they were all in this from the beginning. They knew exactly what they were getting when he was hired. You have to think that something somewhere changed between these two. And I believe it was a series of events that led to a break point. What may the case is that Marty and AJ differed in how to proceed to the next level. I read news accounts suggesting that Marty did not want to lose certain players that AJ wanted gone. Brees was the biggest name but I'm sure thre were others that Marty would rather of had. I also can easily imagine that Marty wasn't too thrilled that Rivers was drafted if he felt Brees was the future. I don't know if that is true or not, I don't recall. But it became clear later that Marty wanted Brees and AJ wanted Rivers starting. Seems it became very contentious at that point. To make matter worse AJ and Spanos began to take authority away from a seasoned vetern coach like Marty and that's never going to go over well. Add a slap in the face BS offer and you have a bad ending looking for the right excuse to happen.You're probably right about the Norv hiring. But if you were a sought after coach, is the ideal environment to walk into? It has to to be concern at least for many candidates.

 
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