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Matt Waldman

Josh Gordon Everything Thread

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Just now, jurrassic said:

I hope so.  Brady has been Mr. Checkdown for awhile.  Their leading receiver is White.  With Edelman back, once Gronk gets healthy he may look deep 3 times a game

He's lost a lot on his arm. He missed Cooks deep more than he hit him last year. 

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22 minutes ago, jurrassic said:

Brady doesn't look downfield enough for Gordon to be consistent in fantasy. 

 

3 minutes ago, jurrassic said:

I hope so.  Brady has been Mr. Checkdown for awhile.

I am not sure the stats support that assessment.  Last season he averaged 7.9 YPA, the year before it was 8.2 and the year before it was 7.6.  If you look at his career numbers his 7.0 YPA this season (so far) is nowhere near out of whack with his history.

I am on the "It's gotta end sometime" bandwagon but I haven't seen anything, yet, to suggest the end is now.  The bottom line is he hasn't had Gronk and Edelman together since the middle of 2016 and he hasn't had a player like Gordon since Moss. I love Cooks but his game is nothing like Gordon's (yes @Bazinga! we all know Cooks game has managed to be on the field consistently for the past four years ZING!!!).

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2 minutes ago, Chaka said:

 

I am not sure the stats support that assessment.  Last season he averaged 7.9 YPA, the year before it was 8.2 and the year before it was 7.6.  If you look at his career numbers his 7.0 YPA this season (so far) is nowhere near out of whack with his history.

I am on the "It's gotta end sometime" bandwagon but I haven't seen anything, yet, to suggest the end is now.  The bottom line is he hasn't had Gronk and Edelman together since the middle of 2016 and he hasn't had a player like Gordon since Moss. I love Cooks but his game is nothing like Gordon's (yes @Bazinga! we all know Cooks game has managed to be on the field consistently for the past four years ZING!!!).

Yup. Cooks' game is better and more versatile. He can line up anywhere. Deep threat, slant to the house, WR screens, handoffs... Makes Gordon look like a one-trick jump-ball pony. 

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3 minutes ago, Sebowski said:

Yup. Cooks' game is better and more versatile. He can line up anywhere. Deep threat, slant to the house, WR screens, handoffs... Makes Gordon look like a one-trick jump-ball pony. 

Have you really been posting in this thread as many times as you have, for as long as you have and believe Gordon is just a "go deep" receiver?

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11 minutes ago, Chaka said:

Have you really been posting in this thread as many times as you have, for as long as you have and believe Gordon is just a "go deep" receiver?

I'm starting to think he might be right now. Hope he proves me wrong. I haven't seen anything in 4yrs to think otherwise. 

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Sounds like some of you need to revisit some older Gordon highlights. Yeah he’s an elite deep threat, dude can also house a slant or screen, make things happen on end arounds etc.. y’all acting like he’s DJax and thus needs a Mahomes cannon to properly feed him. Gordon is more Julio Jones than Mike Wallace

Edited by fredsavage
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9 minutes ago, fredsavage said:

Sounds like some of you need to revisit some older Gordon highlights. Yeah he’s an elite deep threat, dude can also house a slant or screen, make things happen on end arounds etc.. y’all acting like he’s DJax and thus needs a Mahomes cannon to properly feed him. Gordon is more Julio Jones than Mike Wallace

"Can" or "could"? ? 

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10 hours ago, Sebowski said:

I'm starting to think he might be right now. Hope he proves me wrong. I haven't seen anything in 4yrs to think otherwise. 

For a couple years it must have been fun to poke fun at Josh Gordon and talk about how he would never play again.  I read your posts.  You throw shade almost every time you comment in this thread.  But it is coming close to the time for you to come over to the dark side.  That was the closest I have seen to a "my mind could change" from you.  So there is hope.    

Here is reality. Gordon IS back in the league.  Gordon IS a Patriot now, not a Brown.  Gordon shares a locker with #######' Tom Brady.  And Gordon is BB's most talented wide receiver (almost by default) There are others that are more skilled at the position, but there isn't anyone who doesn't recognize his athletic ability.  And beyond that Gordon does run the full route tree, Gordon is hitting above career averages (on a small sample size) and (if you watched Josh Gordon when he was at Cleveland) splitting defenders in the endzone is something Gordon has always had an uncanny ability to do.  Teams used to have to game plan against him doing exactly that. 

In my opinion, IF he stays healthy, and isn't double covered, he is big enough to run through the tackles of most corners and fast enough to run away from most safeties. In Cleveland, he always drew the double and they threw it anyways.  With BB putting together the match ups (instead of Hue), I expect the rest of the year will build him into the offense.   

I hope he proves you wrong too.  Not because I am a Patriot fan (because I am not).  But because I am a fan of great football and this guy is truly capable of that.    

Edited by Hairy Snowman
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10 hours ago, fredsavage said:

Sounds like some of you need to revisit some older Gordon highlights. Yeah he’s an elite deep threat, dude can also house a slant or screen, make things happen on end arounds etc.. y’all acting like he’s DJax and thus needs a Mahomes cannon to properly feed him. Gordon is more Julio Jones than Mike Wallace

Oh the irony.

(I've never been a big DJax fan, but making things happen on end arounds was one of his strengths... I'm sure he was better at it than Gordon)

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9 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

Oh the irony.

(I've never been a big DJax fan, but making things happen on end arounds was one of his strengths... I'm sure he was better at it than Gordon)

I agree. DJax is great on end arounds.  But totally different players. 

DJax has been timed at a 4.35 40.

Gordon has been timed in the 4.3s.

 

Gordon is 6'3", 225 lbs.

DJax is 5'10" 175 Lbs.   

They aren't the same at all.  

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2017/11/10/josh-gordon-proving-hes-still-flash-with-blazing-40-time/

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/559554/desean-jackson

 

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7 minutes ago, Hairy Snowman said:

I agree. DJax is great on end arounds.  But totally different players. 

Oh I agree. But it was just funny the guy was talking about Gordon being good on end arounds and then implying DJax was a one trick pony.

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2 hours ago, Hairy Snowman said:

For a couple years it must have been fun to poke fun at Josh Gordon and talk about how he would never play again.  I read your posts.  You throw shade almost every time you comment in this thread.  But it is coming close to the time for you to come over to the dark side.  That was the closest I have seen to a "my mind could change" from you.  So there is hope.    

Here is reality. Gordon IS back in the league.  Gordon IS a Patriot now, not a Brown.  Gordon shares a locker with #######' Tom Brady.  And Gordon is BB's most talented wide receiver (almost by default) There are others that are more skilled at the position, but there isn't anyone who doesn't recognize his athletic ability.  And beyond that Gordon does run the full route tree, Gordon is hitting above career averages (on a small sample size) and (if you watched Josh Gordon when he was at Cleveland) splitting defenders in the endzone is something Gordon has always had an uncanny ability to do.  Teams used to have to game plan against him doing exactly that. 

In my opinion, IF he stays healthy, and isn't double covered, he is big enough to run through the tackles of most corners and fast enough to run away from most safeties. In Cleveland, he always drew the double and they threw it anyways.  With BB putting together the match ups (instead of Hue), I expect the rest of the year will build him into the offense.   

I hope he proves you wrong too.  Not because I am a Patriot fan (because I am not).  But because I am a fan of great football and this guy is truly capable of that.    

Meh. I guess you haven't been in this thread as long as I have. I'm only in one dynasty league. I drafted Gordon as a rookie. Still have him. We only started allowing suspended players to be placed on our IR slot last year. I've held him anyway. I've always been in his corner. But I'm also a realist with him. And I like to provide balance to this thread. When there is too much Yin, I'll Yang. But this thread is full of Yang lately, so I Yin. 

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45 minutes ago, Hairy Snowman said:

I agree. DJax is great on end arounds.  But totally different players. 

DJax has been timed at a 4.35 40.

Gordon has been timed in the 4.3s.

 

Gordon is 6'3", 225 lbs.

DJax is 5'10" 175 Lbs.   

They aren't the same at all.  

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2017/11/10/josh-gordon-proving-hes-still-flash-with-blazing-40-time/

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/559554/desean-jackson

 

Only in the Josh Gordon thread do we take a team's rounded down timed 40 of their player over an official pro day or combine number :lmao: Gordon ran a 4.52. That's his number. That's how this works. 

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3 minutes ago, Sebowski said:

Only in the Josh Gordon thread do we take a team's rounded down timed 40 of their player over an official pro day or combine number :lmao: Gordon ran a 4.52. That's his number. That's how this works. 

He ran a 4.3- 40 last year overweight.  And at Baylor.  He was probably wasted on his pro day - no joke.  When he came out, Baylor was a mad house.  As you know. 

I'll take the most commonly timed 40. 

Sorry you have had to wait.  I hope you are richly rewarded.  I understand not wanting to get ahead of yourself, but you kept him for a reason.  

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9 minutes ago, Soulfly3 said:

probably catches 60 of TBs next 100 tds

In all honesty, I could see him catching around 30% if he still has the skills he had. 

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13 minutes ago, Hairy Snowman said:

He ran a 4.3- 40 last year overweight.  And at Baylor.  He was probably wasted on his pro day - no joke.  When he came out, Baylor was a mad house.  As you know. 

I'll take the most commonly timed 40. 

Sorry you have had to wait.  I hope you are richly rewarded.  I understand not wanting to get ahead of yourself, but you kept him for a reason.  

How often does a NFL team time one of their players in a 40? I don't think I've ever heard of it before. But the Browns did for Josh. The guy they've been coddling with kid gloves. And we believe their watch. Because they have no reason to fib or slightly mistime it. Plus they are probably real good at hand timing 40s. How hard can fractions of a second be to get right when you never ever do it ever for anyone else in your team ever? There's a reason the standard is the standard. I'm not going to knock Josh for his 4.52 40, but I'm also not going to cherry pick a fabled 4.3 40 to lavish praise on him either. 

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I'm a Browns fan....loved Gordon after that monster season 100 years ago, but then he quickly got suspended for 10 games the next year and joined a 6-4 team.  They finished 7-9. 

http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/11039/josh-gordons-2014-season-was-very-mysterious-very-disappointing

All I watched was him running the wrong routes and he did the same thing last year.  In 13 games since that season he's now gone for 47-737-3....eh.  Didn't care when they traded him.  He could go off, but I doubt it.

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10 minutes ago, Sebowski said:

How often does a NFL team time one of their players in a 40? I don't think I've ever heard of it before. But the Browns did for Josh. The guy they've been coddling with kid gloves. And we believe their watch. Because they have no reason to fib or slightly mistime it. Plus they are probably real good at hand timing 40s. How hard can fractions of a second be to get right when you never ever do it ever for anyone else in your team ever? There's a reason the standard is the standard. I'm not going to knock Josh for his 4.52 40, but I'm also not going to cherry pick a fabled 4.3 40 to lavish praise on him either. 

You are forgetting that he timed consistently in the low 4.3s at Baylor.  It isn't like he has never been timed at 4.3 before....

"Darin Gantt (Pro Football Talk) - '(...Gordon) has been clocked in the low 4.3-second range while at Baylor.'

https://www.catscratchreader.com/2012/7/2/3133687/wr-6-4-225-4-3-40-time-enters-supplemental-draft

There is one time that is 4.52. I am not cherry picking the other times.  If you research Gordon, you should find that is the slowest 40 time on record for him.  Unless you can find any other time that he ran that slow? I could not.  
 

ETA  The best part of all of this is that this drama should play out on the field. We will know this season.  And then comes the hard part.. 

 

Edited by Hairy Snowman

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talking bout gordon's 40 time when you've seen him leave prime talib 20yds in his dust

:lol:

fbg

Edited by Soulfly3

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8 minutes ago, Soulfly3 said:

talking bout gordon's 40 time when you've seen him leave prime talib 20yds in his dust

:lol:

fbg

I know you're a fellow Browns fan and love your optimism.  I'm also on your Baker/Chubb wagon, but that dust was in 2013!

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26 minutes ago, arctic_panzer_wolf said:

I'm a Browns fan....loved Gordon after that monster season 100 years ago, but then he quickly got suspended for 10 games the next year and joined a 6-4 team.  They finished 7-9. 

http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-browns/post/_/id/11039/josh-gordons-2014-season-was-very-mysterious-very-disappointing

All I watched was him running the wrong routes and he did the same thing last year.  In 13 games since that season he's now gone for 47-737-3....eh.  Didn't care when they traded him.  He could go off, but I doubt it.

I was worried about this, too. But they won't tolerate that in New England. He'll either be on the field because he's running the right routes, or he'll be on the bench. Either way, people who roster him will know his snap count and act accordingly. 

But he could really off, and I'm not sure I doubt that.  

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10 minutes ago, rockaction said:

I was worried about this, too. But they won't tolerate that in New England. He'll either be on the field because he's running the right routes, or he'll be on the bench. Either way, people who roster him will know his snap count and act accordingly. 

But he could really off, and I'm not sure I doubt that.  

But you knew his snap count? And you didn't act accordingly? 

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5 minutes ago, Sebowski said:

But you knew his snap count? And you didn't act accordingly? 

I'm a baller. 

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Even if he knows the playbook, Gordon won't be a fantasy stud in NE. That TD he scored was a fluke. Brady doesn't even look his way.

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Whatever Gordon's 40 time is, it can be pretty irrelevant in the big picture.

The 40 is a track event. Much of your time is dependent on the start & the first 10 yards or so.

Very few DBs have his long speed. It's one of several reasons why Flash is one of the better deep threats in the league (maybe the best once he's acclimated to the NFL again).

 

Edited by Football Jones
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10 hours ago, LargeMouthBass said:

Even if he knows the playbook, Gordon won't be a fantasy stud in NE. That TD he scored was a fluke. Brady doesn't even look his way.

He doesn’t look his way because he has been there for two weeks and the two games he played were within four days of each other. Give the guy time to get acquainted with the greatest qb of all time and good things are going to happen.

Really, is it fair to expect Gordon to be here a matter of days and light up the league like it’s 2013? I’m telling you, you will want this guy on your team down the stretch in New England.

Edited by Saboo
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2 hours ago, iamkoza said:

he's sitting happily on my bench. wake me up when he passes dorsett on the depth chart.

I don't think they are running the same routes.  I think Edelman is going to have more to say about Dorsett's game action than Gordon.  Edelman and Dorsett are sharing a position. 

I think Gordon replaces Hogan. Dorsett keeps Edelman healthy. 

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1 minute ago, Hairy Snowman said:

I don't think they are running the same routes.  I think Edelman is going to have more to say about Dorsett's game action than Gordon.  Edelman and Dorsett are sharing a position. 

I think Gordon replaces Hogan. Dorsett keeps Edelman healthy. 

It's Hogan, and that won't be long.  

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10 minutes ago, Hairy Snowman said:

This is the week to expect a Josh Gordon breakout game. Just saying. 

Yes sir. I expect him to get more snaps, at the expense of Dorsett and Hogan. He will probably get a one or two deep shots. 

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Just now, FGITLOTR said:

Yes sir. I expect him to get more snaps, at the expense of Dorsett and Hogan. He will probably get a one or two deep shots. 

I suspect his hamstring is just about 100% also. He will be facing a struggling secondary.  If he was in his prime previously, he would eat up this defense.  

But (something you never had to think much about with Gordon before), it is possible his team blows out KC.  That might limit his productivity.  But if the game somehow goes the other way? Watch out. This is a game in which the match ups appears very favorable.    

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Are we at the point in this thread again where we are starting him over A. Brown and considering him over Gurley at the flex position?

Edited by BassNBrew
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Curious to see his practice participation this week first. I'd like to see the "limited" go away.

Probably going to be a week or two early this week, but I think if you need upside because your opponent is projected to win, Gordon certainly isn't a bad gamble. The over/under on this game is through the roof. Somebody is scoring points for NE.

I'm personally considering Gordon over A. Jeffery (who faces J. Jankins shadow coverage).

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24 minutes ago, BassNBrew said:

Are we at the point in this thread again where we are starting him over A. Brown and considering him over Gurley at the flex position?

In a start 1 player league?

Yes. 

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45 minutes ago, BassNBrew said:

Are we at the point in this thread again where we are starting him over A. Brown and considering him over Gurley at the flex position?

I think we can be a little more realistic about the start over - although technically Tyler Lockett is doing better than AB this year so far.  Fantasy football has a lot to do with matchups. 

Who is Josh Gordon going to be looking at this week?  Where?  And what is the history between the two teams?  

C'mon Bass, do you think Gordon is a sit THIS WEEK?

That is where we are at this week.   

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2 hours ago, BassNBrew said:

Are we at the point in this thread again where we are starting him over A. Brown and considering him over Gurley at the flex position?

No but with Golladay and Ingram on the bye and my other WR2/flex options are Drake and Henry (yes I have the complete set of the Roll Tide! backfield) Gordon sure looks like a nice WR2/Flex option.

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I still think people's expectations for Gordon having a huge impact and being a consistent fantasy producer each week this year are way too high. Gronk, White, and Edelman are going to see a combined 30 targets or so a week. Everyone else is fighting for the leftovers. That includes Gordon, Hogan, Doresett, Michel, Patterson, Allen, Hollister, etc. There may be weeks where Gordon will be a match up nightmare for defenses and the game plan attacks that. In other weeks, he probably will play a limited role, see limited snaps. or be used to free up space for the other guys underneath or in the middle.

IMO, Gordon will be a hit or miss deep threat and TD dependent for fantasy. Given that NE has other guys to see a lot of targets and get a lot of shorter receptions, I don't think Gordon will have weeks with a lot of receptions. So he may have weeks with 2 catches for 20 yards. If like last week he hits on a deep pass, that might go up to 3 catches for 60 yards and a TD. I don't see him getting weeks with a ton of receptions, so I would call him a marginal fantasy WR3 the rest of the way that will be maddeningly inconsistent. If he gets that 40 yard TD, that will give him 11 points on one play. If he doesn't, then he most likely is not going to help you that week. With the TD catch, he could be a mid range WR2, but without it, he could easily be a WR5 that week.

I also think NE will keep him under wraps until they truly need him. So they may not use him much in the regular season and then he could explode in the playoffs when they unveil plays and uses for him that they didn't show earlier on.

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13 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I still think people's expectations for Gordon having a huge impact and being a consistent fantasy producer each week this year are way too high. Gronk, White, and Edelman are going to see a combined 30 targets or so a week. Everyone else is fighting for the leftovers. That includes Gordon, Hogan, Doresett, Michel, Patterson, Allen, Hollister, etc. There may be weeks where Gordon will be a match up nightmare for defenses and the game plan attacks that. In other weeks, he probably will play a limited role, see limited snaps. or be used to free up space for the other guys underneath or in the middle.

IMO, Gordon will be a hit or miss deep threat and TD dependent for fantasy. Given that NE has other guys to see a lot of targets and get a lot of shorter receptions, I don't think Gordon will have weeks with a lot of receptions. So he may have weeks with 2 catches for 20 yards. If like last week he hits on a deep pass, that might go up to 3 catches for 60 yards and a TD. I don't see him getting weeks with a ton of receptions, so I would call him a marginal fantasy WR3 the rest of the way that will be maddeningly inconsistent. If he gets that 40 yard TD, that will give him 11 points on one play. If he doesn't, then he most likely is not going to help you that week. With the TD catch, he could be a mid range WR2, but without it, he could easily be a WR5 that week.

I also think NE will keep him under wraps until they truly need him. So they may not use him much in the regular season and then he could explode in the playoffs when they unveil plays and uses for him that they didn't show earlier on.

I like what you are selling here.  But I still think people are underestimating the mismatch he creates against defensive backfields.   

"Everyone else is fighting for the leftovers"

I disagree here. I think the pie grows.  More attempts, more completions, more TOP, more points. 
 

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5 minutes ago, Hairy Snowman said:

I like what you are selling here.  But I still think people are underestimating the mismatch he creates against defensive backfields.   

"Everyone else is fighting for the leftovers"

I disagree here. I think the pie grows.  More attempts, more completions, more TOP, more points. 
 

I also disagree with the idea that Gordon won't take a few targets away from those guys when Tom knows he has a WR who can stretch the field.  It's up to Gordon to prove that he can be that reliable deep threat, but if those 3 combined for 25 targets instead of 30, there are plenty left for Gordon to be the primary guy downfield who sees 5 to 7 targets per week or more.

He's not there yet until he earns a starting role.  But when he's on the field, he's almost always going to be the biggest or 2nd biggest mismatch Brady has to throw to.

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2 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

He's not there yet until he earns a starting role.  But when he's on the field, he's almost always going to be the biggest or 2nd biggest mismatch Brady has to throw to.

It works the other way, too, though. Gordon may be the second biggest mismatch, but he will likely draw the opposition’s top corner. Are opponents going to be quaking over NE’s other receivers? Gordon will draw coverage away from the other guys. 

I expect NE will start to run deeper routes and White will be left to beat a LB and will benefit.

from what I have seen, Gordon hasn’t run anything exotic and he’s mostly been playing with training wheels on. It stands to reason they will add to his plate, but whether that is after a month, half a season, in the playoffs, or next year is hard to guess. 

The game against the Chiefs will be interesting. Brady has already come out and said they can’t turn the ball over and need to score consistently to win. Given the quirky interceptions Brady has gotten stuck with lately, I wonder if that makes it more likely or less likely that Brady would trust Gordon this week. 

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46 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I still think people's expectations for Gordon having a huge impact and being a consistent fantasy producer each week this year are way too high. Gronk, White, and Edelman are going to see a combined 30 targets or so a week. Everyone else is fighting for the leftovers. That includes Gordon, Hogan, Doresett, Michel, Patterson, Allen, Hollister, etc. There may be weeks where Gordon will be a match up nightmare for defenses and the game plan attacks that. In other weeks, he probably will play a limited role, see limited snaps. or be used to free up space for the other guys underneath or in the middle.

IMO, Gordon will be a hit or miss deep threat and TD dependent for fantasy. Given that NE has other guys to see a lot of targets and get a lot of shorter receptions, I don't think Gordon will have weeks with a lot of receptions. So he may have weeks with 2 catches for 20 yards. If like last week he hits on a deep pass, that might go up to 3 catches for 60 yards and a TD. I don't see him getting weeks with a ton of receptions, so I would call him a marginal fantasy WR3 the rest of the way that will be maddeningly inconsistent. If he gets that 40 yard TD, that will give him 11 points on one play. If he doesn't, then he most likely is not going to help you that week. With the TD catch, he could be a mid range WR2, but without it, he could easily be a WR5 that week.

I also think NE will keep him under wraps until they truly need him. So they may not use him much in the regular season and then he could explode in the playoffs when they unveil plays and uses for him that they didn't show earlier on.

Good post.  I'm with you 100% up until the bolded.  NFL teams don't do that.  It's too hard to win in this league to be holding things back. 

BB of all people is not thinking about January in October.

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27 minutes ago, Hairy Snowman said:

I like what you are selling here.  But I still think people are underestimating the mismatch he creates against defensive backfields.   

"Everyone else is fighting for the leftovers"

I disagree here. I think the pie grows.  More attempts, more completions, more TOP, more points. 
 

Actually, there will be way less pass attempts in NE. Brady will only have to throw the ball 10 times a game if Gordon takes every one of those to the house. :thumbup:

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