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How does the arrival of Brandon Lloyd impact the Patriots' offense (1 Viewer)

TS Garp

Footballguy
Forgive me if this has been discussed ad nauseum already, but I couldn't find it on a quick search.

I know there's debate about Lloyd's impact, with some expecting a poor man's Randy Moss of 2007 (so, essentially, Moss of 2008 or 2009) while others think he'll play his role well but not be a main target. Regardless, there's no denying the fact that he's the most accomplished and talented WR that the Patriots have had alongside Welker since Moss left/stopped playing hard.

Let's assume that Tom Brady throws 40 td's this season. He had 39 last year and 36 the year before. 40 certainly isn't a given, but we'll get into that in a minute. For now, let's say he hits 40. Last year, only 5 Patriots caught TD passes and none of them were RB's. That's unlikely to happen again (in 2010, 8 players caught TD's and in 2009, 7 players caught TD's), given that Addai and Woodhead are good receivers out of the backfield and there's so much depth. You have guys like Branch (who had 5 last year), Gaffney, Stallworth, Edelman, and Fells. But let's be conservative and say that only 6 TD's go to that group of RB's and the guys I just mentioned. I think it could be much closer to 8-10, but we'll say 6. That leaves 34 TD's. How do you see the distribution?

Let's say something like this:

Gronkowski: 12

Hernandez: 8

Welker: 7

Lloyd: 7

If that's roughly correct, based on the ADP of these guys, their owners are going to be somewhat disappointed, unless their receptions/yards are truly off the charts.

It obviously gets more problematic if Brady throws only (!) 35 td's. Again, if 6 go to the rb's/Branch/Gaffney/Stallworth et al, you have 29, which could look like this:

Gronkowski: 10

Hernandez: 7

Welker: 6

Lloyd: 6

There are lots of different scenarios here and a lot will also depend on who stays healthy, but there's no question that the arrival of Lloyd complicates things a bit. So, my question: who do you think will be impacted the most when it comes to their TD's? Or will Brady throw more than 40 TD's and it won't matter? I'm not expecting anyone's numbers to crater, but I think there's a good chance that at least two of these guys underperform their ADP's -- possibly by quite a bit. And I also think there's a decent chance that Brady throws 30-34 TD's, as well.

Thoughts?

 
I got flamed in other threads suggesting that Brady could hit 45+ TDs this year, so I might not be the best one to answer how "few" each option gets for TDs.

 
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I got flamed in other threads suggesting that Brady could hit 45+ TDs this year, so I might not be the best one to answer how "few" each option gets for TDs.
I don't think it's out of the question. But don't you think he's as likely to throw for 35 TD's? And, if he hits 45, don't you think there's a good chance that more than 5 or 6 go to Woodhead/Addai/Ridley/Vereen/Fells/Branch/Gaffney/Stallworth et al?
 
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This is a bit of a honda, but here we go. This is how I have the Pats projected.

Welker 105/1125/6Lloyd 79/989/6Branch 34/475/3Gaffney 13/199/2Gronk 89/1192/13Hernandez 65/785/7RBs 37/287/1
This gives Brady roughly the following stats: 425/5,052/38

Compared to last year, Branch and Welker probably take the largest reception hit to account for Lloyd, but there's reductions all around.

 
I wrote a long post about this a couple weeks ago. With all those weapons, I would say its more likely he has 45 than 35. If you want to read why i feel that way, check that thread haha i dont feel like reposting.

 
The Unique Case of the NE Patriots

I wanted to post some pats stats, since 2007 is always thrown out there for comparison as the pot of gold year.

from football outsiders (thx, FO)

and pro-football-reference

2007

pass/run - 586/451

yards - 6580 - 1st

plays - 1058 - 2nd by 2 plays

off td - 67

rush td - 17 - tied 5th

drives - 158 - actually tied with indy for lowest in league

yds/drive - 41.63 - 1st in league (indy 2nd at 37)

td/drive - .424 - 1st in league (indy 2nd at .323)

DSR - .812 - 1st in league (indy 2nd at .769)

DSR represents Drive Success Rate, as introduced in Pro Football Prospectus 2005, which measures the percentage of down series that result in a first down or touchdown.

2011

pass/run - 612/438

yards - 6848 - 2nd

plays - 1082 - 2nd

off td - 57

rush td - 18 - 3rd

drives - 173 - 4th lowest (pit lowest at 165)

yds/drive - 39.53 - 2nd (NO 1st at 42.44)

td/drive - .329 - 3rd (GB 1st at .375)

DSR - .775 - 2nd (NO 1st at .788)

rolling into 2011, I thought new england was going to be the dominant team everybody's talking about for 2012, and maybe I'm a spoiled pats fan, but I'd say 2011 turned out to be good, but not great.

comparing these 2 sets of stats, I think they're remarkably similar -- more similar than I expected, but the key difference, and this is what I DID expect, is basically drive efficiency.

there's about a .100 drop off from 2007 to 2011 in td/drive, resulting in about 10 fewer brady td's over 170+ drives.

I'll post up td/drive leaders from the past few years for comparison:

2011 - GB .375

2010 - NE .354

2009 - NO .312

2008 - NO .309

2007 - NE .424

2006 - IN .324

2005 - IN .314

2004 - IN .367

2003 - KC .306

2002 - KC .299

2001 - SL .324

2000 - SL .350

average of above subtracting 2007 - .330

so, you can see the 2007 pats did their damage just by being crazy efficient on their drives --- just about .100 above the typical leader or nearly 30%.

30% better than an annual leader is pretty efficient, and this obviously includes some of the very best offenses of the last decade - saints, indy, packers, rams.

the 2011 team weighed in at only .329 td/drive, which is just about exactly the .330 average of annual leaders shown above.

those of you looking to squeeze more fantasy points out of the pats this year can actually do so if mcd and lloyd manage to pimp that drive efficiency back up to the crazy good ted williams level.

2011: branch + ocho = 6 td

steal 3 from gronk + 1 from welker = 4 td

add 8 td from inc eff = 8 td

just to play devil's advocate, that's 18 td for the new 2012 receivers, or maybe rb, I guess.

or maybe just give gronk's 3 back to him or to hernandez, and call it +15 td.....

edit: also, there's some chatter in the welker thread.

plus, lloyd might have a player spotlight.

 
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I got flamed in other threads suggesting that Brady could hit 45+ TDs this year, so I might not be the best one to answer how "few" each option gets for TDs.
I don't think it's out of the question. But don't you think he's as likely to throw for 35 TD's? And, if he hits 45, don't you think there's a good chance that more than 5 or 6 go to Woodhead/Addai/Ridley/Vereen/Fells/Branch/Gaffney/Stallworth et al?
I don't think all the guys you have listed at the end will stay on the roster. From what I have seen, either Branch or Stallowrth will make it. And I have seen speculation that Addai is on the bubble.I think too many people are looking at last year and wanting to slot the same production to the mainstays and giving only leftover crumbs to the new guys.As I see it, some production will be trimmed from the returnees and some extra offense could be generated to give additional production to the new players. I see no signs that point to the Pats trying to become more balanced and rush more, as they would not have been searching for receivers and signing several options to see who panned out.
 
How improved is the Pats' defense this year? It just dawned on me that this could have an obvoius effect on passing numbers.

How likely is it that the Pats are once again at the bottom of the league in terms of defense?

 
How improved is the Pats' defense this year? It just dawned on me that this could have an obvoius effect on passing numbers. How likely is it that the Pats are once again at the bottom of the league in terms of defense?
I might agree in principle, but not in the specific case of the pats.reference my tl;dr post above.in 2007 their defense was ranked 4th in both points and yards allowed.in 2011 they were terrible in yards, but clocked in 15th in points.bear in mind they were also probably better in turnovers in 2011.
 
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I thought that Jason Wood had a couple of very good comments in the Welker thread:

I have to admit that I'm struggling with the Patriots. It's not everyday you have too many weapons, but right now I have difficulty plugging Brandon Lloyd into this equation without seeing one of the others (Welker, Hernandez and Gronk) being disappointing. I know you could argue that injuries will help balance that out, but I also think Belichick has a willingness -- maybe more than any other coach -- to dramatically reshape the game plan. Just because we're used to seeing things operate a certain way doesn't mean they will in the coming year.
I know the league trends in one direction until it doesn't, but it really won't surprise me at all if the Patriots re-assert their running game this year. Belichick zigs when others zag.
This has been relatively under the radar, but the Patriots did sign two fullbacks, including Tony Fiammetta, which is a curious move for them. Fells is also a noted blocking tight end. What does it mean? Maybe nothing? Maybe subtle signs that they want to run more? Hard to say, but I think Jason is correct that nothing is a given with Belichick.
 
Between Branch and Ocho last year there were 66 rec on 122 targets for 978 yds and 6 TD's. That's a lot of available targets without anything else changing. You figure the majority of those targets will go to Lloyd with Branch and the other depth guys likely taking a much lesser role (and maybe not even making the final roster?)

 
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Between Branch and Ocho last year there were 66 rec on 122 targets for 978 yds and 6 TD's. That's a lot of available targets without anything else changing. You figure the majority of those targets will go to Lloyd with Branch likely taking a much lesser role (and maybe not even making the final roster?)
If Branch goes, that more than likely means Lloyd, Gaffney, and Stallworth stay. That's why it seems likely that the other guys will have give something up to the new guys productivity wise.And Brady threw the ball 611 times last year, so it's not like he can just tack on another 10-20% in terms of more attempts this year. I am in the minority that thinks Brady actually will have a few more attempts this year, but that is going against the grain.
 
This is a bit of a honda, but here we go. This is how I have the Pats projected.

Code:
Welker  105/1125/6Lloyd   79/989/6Branch  34/475/3Gaffney 13/199/2Gronk      89/1192/13Hernandez  65/785/7RBs 37/287/1
This gives Brady roughly the following stats: 425/5,052/38Compared to last year, Branch and Welker probably take the largest reception hit to account for Lloyd, but there's reductions all around.
you actually cut into Hernandez's numbers quite a bit....down by about 15 receptions from last year (79)...(and he missed two games)....not sure why, but 79 receptions for Lloyd seems a little high...I'm not sure he will be that much of week in week out factor....Lloyd has some recent buzz and seems to have become a pretty good receiver, but he is also a guy who has been on a few teams and had to fight for a job not too long ago....his fit in a McDaniels offense may have been the best thing that happened to him in DEN and he can play.....but he also hasn't been on a team with this many other quality receiving options.....
 
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This is a bit of a honda, but here we go. This is how I have the Pats projected.

Code:
Welker  105/1125/6Lloyd   79/989/6Branch  34/475/3Gaffney 13/199/2Gronk      89/1192/13Hernandez  65/785/7RBs 37/287/1
This gives Brady roughly the following stats: 425/5,052/38Compared to last year, Branch and Welker probably take the largest reception hit to account for Lloyd, but there's reductions all around.
you actually cut into Hernandez's numbers quite a bit....down by about 15 receptions from last year (79)...(and he missed two games)....not sure why, but 79 receptions for Lloyd seems a little high...I'm not sure he will be that much of week in week out factor....Lloyd has some recent buzz and seems to have become a pretty good receiver, but he is also a guy who has been on a few teams and had to fight for a job not too long ago....his fit in a McDaniels offense may have been the best thing that happened to him in DEN and he can play.....but he also hasn't been on a team with this many other quality receiving options.....
It's an interesting point on Lloyd. He was in a situation in St. Louis where they absolutely forced the ball to him continuously, and he didn't have much competition in Denver, either. The other side of the coin, of course, is that he hasn't had a QB of Brady's caliber throwing him the ball. So it may all even out. Plus, McDaniels seems to have a huge soft spot for him. But 79 receptions may indeed be high. Even during his breakout year in Denver, he only had 77. I could see a Vincent Jackson sort of ratio, with not a ton of receptions but a very high YPC. Something like 65/1165/7 with a couple of monster games in the mix.
 
This is a bit of a honda, but here we go. This is how I have the Pats projected.

Welker 105/1125/6Lloyd 79/989/6Branch 34/475/3Gaffney 13/199/2Gronk 89/1192/13Hernandez 65/785/7RBs 37/287/1This gives Brady roughly the following stats: 425/5,052/38Compared to last year, Branch and Welker probably take the largest reception hit to account for Lloyd, but there's reductions all around.
you actually cut into Hernandez's numbers quite a bit....down by about 15 receptions from last year (79)...(and he missed two games)....not sure why, but 79 receptions for Lloyd seems a little high...I'm not sure he will be that much of week in week out factor....Lloyd has some recent buzz and seems to have become a pretty good receiver, but he is also a guy who has been on a few teams and had to fight for a job not too long ago....his fit in a McDaniels offense may have been the best thing that happened to him in DEN and he can play.....but he also hasn't been on a team with this many other quality receiving options.....
Absolutely agree. The guy has a career sub 50% catch rate, some of that has to due to the routes he asked to run (deep ones) but even if he gets it up to 55%, that still requires 140 targets, just about what Gronkowski got last year. I just don't see that happening.

 
Forgive me if this has been discussed ad nauseum already, but I couldn't find it on a quick search.
It definitely has, but you are forgiven. First it was discussed in the Lloyd spotlight, then the curious case of the NE Patriots thread, then the Welker spotlight.I agree with David that 45 is within reach this year, but the real problem comes when you try to divvy up the targets. I am one that believes in the McDaniels/Lloyd connection, so I think he seems 120 targets, while Welker is downgraded from 172 or whatever to 140, leaving about 200 for Gronk and Hernandez to split, while the depth guys - Branch, Gaffney, whoever - don't see the field a lot. That's been debated in those other three threads I mentioned.
 
I think too many people are looking at last year and wanting to slot the same production to the mainstays and giving only leftover crumbs to the new guys.As I see it, some production will be trimmed from the returnees and some extra offense could be generated to give additional production to the new players. I see no signs that point to the Pats trying to become more balanced and rush more, as they would not have been searching for receivers and signing several options to see who panned out.
I have nothing to base this on other than instinct, but I believe the days of penning in Welker for 100+ receptions in NE are done. I think the 2 TE offense is the offense until Brady retires and they will let Welker walk after this year and use that money to extend Hernandez. If that's the case and they make offensive adjustments that are less slot WR centric then it makes sense to start now and not 2013. Again, this is my gut based on nothing more than that, but when you're looking to distribute an extra 20-30 receptions, I will not be surprised at all to see Welker in the 70-80 range in 2012 and you can distribute the extras to Lloyd and probably Branch/Gaffney.ETA: Adjusted years. I'm living in the past ...
 
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Gronkowski is the 1st round is foolish

Tom Brady in the 1st round is smart.

Aaron Hernanadez in the 3rd round is foolish

Brandon LLoyd in the 5th is smart.

 
Gronkowski is the 1st round is foolishTom Brady in the 1st round is smart. Aaron Hernanadez in the 3rd round is foolishBrandon LLoyd in the 5th is smart.
Can you elaborate? If Brady in the 1st is a smart pick but Gronkowski in the 1st and Hernandez in the 3rd are foolish picks, how do you see things playing out? Care to post some offensive projections for New England?
 
It seems to me the largest thing people are forgetting is just how much Josh McDaniels loves Brandon Lloyd. Had him in Denver, traded for him in STL and went to NE knowing that Lloyd was a free agent and would want to follow. Lloyd will get his. In reality, I think Welker is the one whose numbers take a dip. Last year he had a 21 catch game and a 99 yard touchdown that skews his overall numbers. I'm not saying to take those numbers out of the equation, because you can't do that. However, people should realize that Welker is the saftey valve for Brady and that he doesn't have the pure physical ability of Gronk and Hernandez. Out of the 4 main NE pass catchers, I would forecast Welker to be the one who disappoints the most at current ADP.

 
I just can't see Brady's TD production going up, if anything I think it goes down and those Td's will go to the RBs, as in rushing TDs..I think we're all completely forgetting about the running game..all of these passing targets will put so much pressure on opposing defenses that the running lanes should be wide-open..

Dropping a statue-esque Brady back to pass 600+ times is eventually going ot catch up with him..at some point,he's bound to take a hit that knocks him out of a game..remember,his career avg for passing attempts is just 483 att/yr..so it's not out of the ordinary to see him attempt as 'few' as 500 passes in 2012..

the biggest problem for the Pats has been the ability to score quickly - too quickly...

I'd be hard-pressed to put Brady down for anything more than ,say, 3900-4000 yards on 490-500 attempts..

The Pats tried to outscore everyone in 2007,it didn't work,they won nothing.last year was more of the same, it too didn't work.again,they won nothing.. Think BB has figured out that he needs to run the ball more, take time off the clock, win the time of possession battle on a per game basis? I do. having an old Tom Brady drop back 611 times like last season, is just a ticking time bomb..and without Brady, the Pats have NO shot at getting back to the SB..

so while everyone jumps on the Lloyd bandwagon, I'm more bearish about him...I doubt he does anything more than 70 catches, maybe a half-dozen Tds..this guy is not ,repeat NOT, the second coming of Randy Moss or J. Rice..this is B. Lloyd we're talking about here..sure he's going to give them a deep threat that they lacked, but I go the other way in thinking that he'll help free up the running game more than anything else..

 
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I just can't see Brady's TD production going up, if anything I think it goes down and those Td's will go to the RBs, as in rushing TDs..I think we're all completely forgetting about the running game..all of these passing targets will put so much pressure on opposing defenses that the running lanes should be wide-open..

Dropping a statue-esque Brady back to pass 600+ times is eventually going ot catch up with him..at some point,he's bound to take a hit that knocks him out of a game..remember,his career avg for passing attempts is just 483 att/yr..so it's not out of the ordinary to see him attempt as 'few' as 500 passes in 2012..

the biggest problem for the Pats has been the ability to score quickly - too quickly...

I'd be hard-pressed to put Brady down for anything more than ,say, 3900-4000 yards on 490-500 attempts..

The Pats tried to outscore everyone in 2007,it didn't work,they won nothing.last year was more of the same, it too didn't work.again,they won nothing.. Think BB has figured out that he needs to run the ball more, take time off the clock, win the time of possession battle on a per game basis? I do. having an old Tom Brady drop back 611 times like last season, is just a ticking time bomb..and without Brady, the Pats have NO shot at getting back to the SB..

so while everyone jumps on the Lloyd bandwagon, I'm more bearish about him...I doubt he does anything more than 70 catches, maybe a half-dozen Tds..this guy is not ,repeat NOT, the second coming of Randy Moss or J. Rice..this is B. Lloyd we're talking about here..sure he's going to give them a deep threat that they lacked, but I go the other way in thinking that he'll help free up the running game more than anything else..
That's a pretty bold call. I'll be shocked if they throw less than 550 times. Also, I'm not sure Lloyd actually has much of a bandwagon. He's being drafted as a WR3.

 
IMO the largest impact will be felt by Welker/Hernandez. I think the fact that they are playing a bit of hardball with Welker indicates that he doesn't have the leverage that he once did. Gronk won't have a season like he did last year but he's a pretty unstoppable force especially when you add another weapon for the defense to focus on.

 
Well, the "bombs away" approach actually won them almost everything but two close Super Bowls against the same opponent. I'm not sure that would be a reason to significantly change the offensive gameplan.

That said, I do think Lloyd should inspire a little caution in Pats drafters. Add me to the list of folks having a hard time making the projections work in terms of justifying ADP. I think he'll have trouble topping more than 55-60 receptions and 900 yards, but even that's enough to put a dent in someone else's numbers given that two of Branch/Stallworth/Gaffney will probably form a more used "other guys" group than Chad + others did last year.

None of the Pats receivers are likely to totally bust--they're all too talented, and Brady is as good as they come. But I can see a 2012 where Gronk has 1000 yards instead of 1350, Welker is back to 5-6 TDs, Hernandez's usage levels are more like 4.5 catches a game instead of 5.5...you get the idea. Upside across the board might be limited.

 
I just can't see Brady's TD production going up, if anything I think it goes down and those Td's will go to the RBs, as in rushing TDs..I think we're all completely forgetting about the running game..all of these passing targets will put so much pressure on opposing defenses that the running lanes should be wide-open..

Dropping a statue-esque Brady back to pass 600+ times is eventually going ot catch up with him..at some point,he's bound to take a hit that knocks him out of a game..remember,his career avg for passing attempts is just 483 att/yr..so it's not out of the ordinary to see him attempt as 'few' as 500 passes in 2012..

the biggest problem for the Pats has been the ability to score quickly - too quickly...

I'd be hard-pressed to put Brady down for anything more than ,say, 3900-4000 yards on 490-500 attempts..

The Pats tried to outscore everyone in 2007,it didn't work,they won nothing.last year was more of the same, it too didn't work.again,they won nothing.. Think BB has figured out that he needs to run the ball more, take time off the clock, win the time of possession battle on a per game basis? I do. having an old Tom Brady drop back 611 times like last season, is just a ticking time bomb..and without Brady, the Pats have NO shot at getting back to the SB..

so while everyone jumps on the Lloyd bandwagon, I'm more bearish about him...I doubt he does anything more than 70 catches, maybe a half-dozen Tds..this guy is not ,repeat NOT, the second coming of Randy Moss or J. Rice..this is B. Lloyd we're talking about here..sure he's going to give them a deep threat that they lacked, but I go the other way in thinking that he'll help free up the running game more than anything else..
What does the regular season have to do with two razor thin losses in the Super Bowl? Since going to a pass happy offense, the last 3 seasons Brady was healthy the Pats went 16-0, 14-2, and 13-3 and went to two Super Bowls.As far as Lloyd goes, if you slot him for 70 catches and 6 TDs, if he has the same yards per catch rate as he did in Denver, that would give him a 70-1316-6 season. Last year, he would have ranked as the #11 fantasy WR with those numbers. Given that his ADP is currently WR25, that would seem like a decent end result, no?

With regard to Brady's total number of passing attempts. look no further than the defense to determine what the Pats will do. In the Brady era, when the Pats have ranked middle of the road (or worse) in BOTH points and yardage allowed, here's what's happened:

2002: Ranked 17th in points allowed and 23rd in yardage allowed.

The Pats ran the ball 38.3% of the time, they ranked 28th in rushing attempts, they got 70.3% of their yards from passing, and Brady threw 601 passes.

2005: Ranked 17th in points allowed and 26th in yardage allowed.

The Pats ran the ball 42.6% of the time, they ranked 18th in rushing attempts, they got 73.2% of their yards from passing, and Brady threw 530 passes.

2011: Ranked 15th in points allowed and 31st in yardage allowed.

The Pats ran the ball 40.4% of the time, they ranked 17th in rushing attepmts, they got 74.2% of their yards from passing, and Brady threw 611 passes.

As a basis for comparison, their percentage of yardage gained from passing in their title years was 63.3%, 68.1%, and 62.7%. Their ranking in rushing attempts those years was 8, 12, and 5. Their percentage of rushing plays was 47.3%, 45.4%, and 50.6%

With regard to the ground attack, the Pats "back in the day" ran in the neighborhood of 475-500 times a season with a high point in the Dillon year of 524 rushing attempts. Last year they had 438 (with the trend pointing downward).

Certainly anything could happen. Not to belabor the point, but if the Pats were really looking to ramp up the running game, why would they have gone out and signed or previewed a bunch of receivers, let their most experienced back go, and only bring in Addai as a veteran pass protector?

 
I just can't see Brady's TD production going up, if anything I think it goes down and those Td's will go to the RBs, as in rushing TDs..I think we're all completely forgetting about the running game..all of these passing targets will put so much pressure on opposing defenses that the running lanes should be wide-open..

Dropping a statue-esque Brady back to pass 600+ times is eventually going ot catch up with him..at some point,he's bound to take a hit that knocks him out of a game..remember,his career avg for passing attempts is just 483 att/yr..so it's not out of the ordinary to see him attempt as 'few' as 500 passes in 2012..

the biggest problem for the Pats has been the ability to score quickly - too quickly...

I'd be hard-pressed to put Brady down for anything more than ,say, 3900-4000 yards on 490-500 attempts..

The Pats tried to outscore everyone in 2007,it didn't work,they won nothing.last year was more of the same, it too didn't work.again,they won nothing.. Think BB has figured out that he needs to run the ball more, take time off the clock, win the time of possession battle on a per game basis? I do. having an old Tom Brady drop back 611 times like last season, is just a ticking time bomb..and without Brady, the Pats have NO shot at getting back to the SB..

so while everyone jumps on the Lloyd bandwagon, I'm more bearish about him...I doubt he does anything more than 70 catches, maybe a half-dozen Tds..this guy is not ,repeat NOT, the second coming of Randy Moss or J. Rice..this is B. Lloyd we're talking about here..sure he's going to give them a deep threat that they lacked, but I go the other way in thinking that he'll help free up the running game more than anything else..
That's a pretty bold call. I'll be shocked if they throw less than 550 times. Also, I'm not sure Lloyd actually has much of a bandwagon. He's being drafted as a WR3.
I don't think he was projecting him to only have 490-500 attempts, but rather saying that he thinks its possible that it happens and if it does, he can't see Brady throwing for more than 4000 yards on those attempts. At least that's the way I read it.

 
Again, posted in another thread, but how often will lloyd even be on the field in the red zone? And if he is, how often will he be the first, second, or even third option? He is a fine receiver and he will get looks but I can't imagine him being a td guy. I don't see him leading the team in receptions, either. That leaves him with good yards, mostly between the 20s, and some long scores.

I understand predicting welker will catch fewer balls, and last year I think was an anomaly. But I see no reason to think brady will change everything around for lloyd.

Brady runs that offense, not mcdaniels. Mcdaniels draws up the plays, and chooses the plays that will be available to brady at the los. But brady runs the offense, and decides where to throw based on the matchups. Welker is the guy who gets open. Hernandez is the big fast guy. Gronk is the guy who can block or run routes and is big and strong in the end zone. What is lloyd that those guys aren't? He's a deep threat, a good sideline guy, a bit of an acrobat, but those aren't first option, high target numbers types of skills. Those are things you look to at key points in the game, and he will get his looks when he is the best option on offense for the down and distance. That's how belichick and brady operate.

Disclaimer: pats fan, former welker owner, current lloyd owner who is dumping lloyd.

 
I just can't see Brady's TD production going up, if anything I think it goes down and those Td's will go to the RBs, as in rushing TDs..I think we're all completely forgetting about the running game..all of these passing targets will put so much pressure on opposing defenses that the running lanes should be wide-open..

Dropping a statue-esque Brady back to pass 600+ times is eventually going ot catch up with him..at some point,he's bound to take a hit that knocks him out of a game..remember,his career avg for passing attempts is just 483 att/yr..so it's not out of the ordinary to see him attempt as 'few' as 500 passes in 2012..

the biggest problem for the Pats has been the ability to score quickly - too quickly...

I'd be hard-pressed to put Brady down for anything more than ,say, 3900-4000 yards on 490-500 attempts..

The Pats tried to outscore everyone in 2007,it didn't work,they won nothing.last year was more of the same, it too didn't work.again,they won nothing.. Think BB has figured out that he needs to run the ball more, take time off the clock, win the time of possession battle on a per game basis? I do. having an old Tom Brady drop back 611 times like last season, is just a ticking time bomb..and without Brady, the Pats have NO shot at getting back to the SB..

so while everyone jumps on the Lloyd bandwagon, I'm more bearish about him...I doubt he does anything more than 70 catches, maybe a half-dozen Tds..this guy is not ,repeat NOT, the second coming of Randy Moss or J. Rice..this is B. Lloyd we're talking about here..sure he's going to give them a deep threat that they lacked, but I go the other way in thinking that he'll help free up the running game more than anything else..
nothing personal, but I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.is any of this based on anything other than your imagination?

what does brady's career attempt average have to do with what he does next year?

were you aware that they were already top 10 in rush attempts in 4 of the last 5 years, and they just let a rb walk who doesn't ever fumble?

were you aware that they were a top 3 team in time of possession in 2007, 2008, and 2009?

fyi -- in order to win a game you need to outscore your opponent.

 
Gronkowski is the 1st round is foolishTom Brady in the 1st round is smart. Aaron Hernanadez in the 3rd round is foolishBrandon LLoyd in the 5th is smart.
ive come to about the same conclusions. well, not lloyd in the 5th. and while gronk in the first is likely to yield disappointment, it is a nice low risk pick with obv upside, tho likely not optimal. ill post my projections for the pats in a bit.
 
Gronkowski is the 1st round is foolishTom Brady in the 1st round is smart. Aaron Hernanadez in the 3rd round is foolishBrandon LLoyd in the 5th is smart.
ive come to about the same conclusions. well, not lloyd in the 5th. and while gronk in the first is likely to yield disappointment, it is a nice low risk pick with obv upside, tho likely not optimal. ill post my projections for the pats in a bit.
I'm surprised that most people are completely ignoring that Gronk required ankle surgery, did not participate in OTAs, and should start training camp on the PUP list. While his health is not expected to be a problem, no one seems to care that his health COULD be an issue. As someone that has had a plethora of ankle issues, at least in my case (and clearly I am not an elite athlete), it's not as easy to brush things off as some people are making it out to be. Obviously everyone recovers differently, but I would be concerned that Gronk in the early going could potentially be hampered, less mobile, and not 100%. Just food for thought . . .
 
Gronkowski is the 1st round is foolish

Tom Brady in the 1st round is smart.

Aaron Hernanadez in the 3rd round is foolish

Brandon LLoyd in the 5th is smart.
ive come to about the same conclusions. well, not lloyd in the 5th. and while gronk in the first is likely to yield disappointment, it is a nice low risk pick with obv upside, tho likely not optimal. ill post my projections for the pats in a bit.
I'm surprised that most people are completely ignoring that Gronk required ankle surgery, did not participate in OTAs, and should start training camp on the PUP list. While his health is not expected to be a problem, no one seems to care that his health COULD be an issue. As someone that has had a plethora of ankle issues, at least in my case (and clearly I am not an elite athlete), it's not as easy to brush things off as some people are making it out to be. Obviously everyone recovers differently, but I would be concerned that Gronk in the early going could potentially be hampered, less mobile, and not 100%. Just food for thought . . .
Can't write it all out anymore David, a lot of times it's just a statement or summary and move on. I agree 100% with you or you agree 100% with my conclusion of Gronk in the 1st.

 
I for one am glad that this thread was created on its own because I also am very bullish on Brady this year. I'm in the Yudkin camp expecting 40 TDs but thinking 45 will happen. I could rehash Yudkin's thoughts, but instead I'll refer to them and claim them as my own when talking with my buddies ;)

To pile on to MOP's thoughts, based solely on ADP I'd say Gronk is not a value, Welker is about right-though on the "not a value" side-and Lloyd is undervalued.

Full disclaimer: I'm an Illinois alum and have had a mancrush on Lloyd for years. I love his skillset. This mancrush was not productive earlier in his career, worthwhile lately

 
I think the guy to own in New England this year is Ridley.

I think the D is going to be better this year and I think the RB's will get a few more touches as a result. But the main reason I think Ridley is going to be the guy to own is the cost. All Patriots WR/TE are going very high in drafts and Brady is a first rounder. I think Ridley will put up BJGE type numbers as a baseline and has upside from there.

 
I think the guy to own in New England this year is Ridley.I think the D is going to be better this year and I think the RB's will get a few more touches as a result. But the main reason I think Ridley is going to be the guy to own is the cost. All Patriots WR/TE are going very high in drafts and Brady is a first rounder. I think Ridley will put up BJGE type numbers as a baseline and has upside from there.
Would the fact that Vereen was the one predominently practicing with the first unit at OTAs change you opinion any?
 
'David Yudkin said:
I'm surprised that most people are completely ignoring that Gronk required ankle surgery, did not participate in OTAs, and should start training camp on the PUP list. While his health is not expected to be a problem, no one seems to care that his health COULD be an issue. As someone that has had a plethora of ankle issues, at least in my case (and clearly I am not an elite athlete), it's not as easy to brush things off as some people are making it out to be. Obviously everyone recovers differently, but I would be concerned that Gronk in the early going could potentially be hampered, less mobile, and not 100%. Just food for thought . . .
cool. didnt realize that his health was gonna be an issue to this extent.
 
'David Yudkin said:
I'm surprised that most people are completely ignoring that Gronk required ankle surgery, did not participate in OTAs, and should start training camp on the PUP list. While his health is not expected to be a problem, no one seems to care that his health COULD be an issue. As someone that has had a plethora of ankle issues, at least in my case (and clearly I am not an elite athlete), it's not as easy to brush things off as some people are making it out to be. Obviously everyone recovers differently, but I would be concerned that Gronk in the early going could potentially be hampered, less mobile, and not 100%. Just food for thought . . .
cool. didnt realize that his health was gonna be an issue to this extent.
To be clear, I am not saying his injury 100% is going to be an issue. All I am saying is it COULD be an issue. I don't think it's unusual to expect someone coming off an injury to be slowed by the injury or be slightly less productive. Given the Pats penchant for not communicating ino on injuries, we won't really know one way or another until we get into the season.
 
Code:
player	     rushes	ypc   rushyards tds  targets	rate	rec	ypc  rec yards  rec tdsridley		180	4.8	864	9	12	0.7	8.4	7	58.8	0vereen		140	4.4	616	4	12	0.72	8.64	8	69.12	0woodhead	85	4.6	391	2	35	0.75	26	8	210	1welker		4	7.3	29.2		150	0.75	112.5	11.6	1305	9lloyd						90	0.58	52.2	15	783	7gaffney						50	0.64	32	13.2	422.4	2								0		0	hernandez					105	0.74	78	12.5	971.25	8gronkowski					120	0.74	89	13.5	1198.8	13
 
Code:
player	     rushes	ypc   rushyards tds  targets	rate	rec	ypc  rec yards  rec tdsridley		180	4.8	864	9	12	0.7	8.4	7	58.8	0vereen		140	4.4	616	4	12	0.72	8.64	8	69.12	0woodhead	85	4.6	391	2	35	0.75	26	8	210	1welker		4	7.3	29.2		150	0.75	112.5	11.6	1305	9lloyd						90	0.58	52.2	15	783	7gaffney						50	0.64	32	13.2	422.4	2								0		0	hernandez					105	0.74	78	12.5	971.25	8gronkowski					120	0.74	89	13.5	1198.8	13
If my math is right, that adds up to 406/5018/40.But the combination of Addai, Branch, Stallworth, Edelman, Slater, and anyone else on the roster is a big fat 0. I am going to guess that those guys won't be completely shutout for an entire season. For example, Dodds has additional production on top of the guys you listed this year as 41-467-2.No matter how you slice it, projecting the Pats production this year is going to be nearly impossible.
 
ya i think around 250-2 for those guys. def think brady will have a huge year. its early, so maybe i will come to my senses. i dont think i have ever predicted such a huge year for a qb and team in general, but this team looks loaded

 
Code:
player	     rushes	ypc   rushyards tds  targets	rate	rec	ypc  rec yards  rec tdsridley		180	4.8	864	9	12	0.7	8.4	7	58.8	0vereen		140	4.4	616	4	12	0.72	8.64	8	69.12	0woodhead	85	4.6	391	2	35	0.75	26	8	210	1welker		4	7.3	29.2		150	0.75	112.5	11.6	1305	9lloyd						90	0.58	52.2	15	783	7gaffney						50	0.64	32	13.2	422.4	2								0		0	hernandez					105	0.74	78	12.5	971.25	8gronkowski					120	0.74	89	13.5	1198.8	13
If my math is right, that adds up to 406/5018/40.But the combination of Addai, Branch, Stallworth, Edelman, Slater, and anyone else on the roster is a big fat 0. I am going to guess that those guys won't be completely shutout for an entire season. For example, Dodds has additional production on top of the guys you listed this year as 41-467-2.No matter how you slice it, projecting the Pats production this year is going to be nearly impossible.
David - what, in your opinion, would happen if it became apparent that Shane Vereen had talent on par with Lesean McCoy?
 
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player rushes ypc rushyards tds targets rate rec ypc rec yards rec tdsridley 180 4.8 864 9 12 0.7 8.4 7 58.8 0vereen 140 4.4 616 4 12 0.72 8.64 8 69.12 0woodhead 85 4.6 391 2 35 0.75 26 8 210 1welker 4 7.3 29.2 150 0.75 112.5 11.6 1305 9lloyd 90 0.58 52.2 15 783 7gaffney 50 0.64 32 13.2 422.4 2 0 0 hernandez 105 0.74 78 12.5 971.25 8gronkowski 120 0.74 89 13.5 1198.8 13
If my math is right, that adds up to 406/5018/40.But the combination of Addai, Branch, Stallworth, Edelman, Slater, and anyone else on the roster is a big fat 0. I am going to guess that those guys won't be completely shutout for an entire season.

For example, Dodds has additional production on top of the guys you listed this year as 41-467-2.

No matter how you slice it, projecting the Pats production this year is going to be nearly impossible.
I think the bolded hits it on the head. I can see the distribution of recieving statistics split out numerous ways amongst the "top 4" (Lloyd, Welker, Gronk, Hernandez). The more I think about it, the more it makes we want to shy away from NE players (other than perhaps Brady) just because I think the "bust" risk is a lot higher for these 4 than your average pick at their respective ADP's. They won't all live up to the their ADP's, and when you consider 3 of the 4 are being drafted in the first 4 (and I believe the Lloyd hype will eventually cause him to approach that mark too) it's very possible that 2 or 3 of them won't live up to their ADP. I'm not saying I wouldn't draft any of them, what I'm saying is if, it's a toss up between one of those 4 and someone else, I think I'll take the non-NE player.

 
IMO Gronkowski is on another level altogether from anyone else on that offense not named Brady. He's just an uber-talented player, and I think he gets his no matter what and the others are left fighting for the rest of it.

Actually I think Welker will still get his as well, just because he's in a totally different role than Lloyd or Hernandez and he's got that Vulcan mind meld thing going with Brady.

That leaves Hernandez as the guy who takes a hit since Lloyd will be on the field more than Branch or Ocho were and he'll see more targets too.

So Gronk #1 and Welker #2 in very similar roles to last year, with Lloyd getting most of the Branch/Ocho stuff plus eating into Hernandez's numbers some as well.

No, I wouldn't bet the house on it.

 
'wdcrob said:
IMO Gronkowski is on another level altogether from anyone else on that offense not named Brady. He's just an uber-talented player, and I think he gets his no matter what and the others are left fighting for the rest of it. Actually I think Welker will still get his as well, just because he's in a totally different role than Lloyd or Hernandez and he's got that Vulcan mind meld thing going with Brady.That leaves Hernandez as the guy who takes a hit since Lloyd will be on the field more than Branch or Ocho were and he'll see more targets too.So Gronk #1 and Welker #2 in very similar roles to last year, with Lloyd getting most of the Branch/Ocho stuff plus eating into Hernandez's numbers some as well.No, I wouldn't bet the house on it.
Why would Hernandez's role be decreased? Not sure about that. Agree that Gronkowski is very special but here are the numbers for Gronkowski and Hernandez in the last 6 regular season games:Gronkowski: 34/522/7 (44 targets)Hernandez: 38/492/2 (51 targets)Gronkowski's TD rate remains elite but TD's can be hard to predict, even with a player as unusual as Gronkowski. I still maintain that the gap between Hernandez and Gronkowski's numbers won't justify the gap between their ADP's. I think there's a good chance that the production of all of the WR's and TE's takes a hit, but I don't think Hernandez's numbers will decrease in a disproportionate way.
 
I think the guy to own in New England this year is Ridley.I think the D is going to be better this year and I think the RB's will get a few more touches as a result. But the main reason I think Ridley is going to be the guy to own is the cost. All Patriots WR/TE are going very high in drafts and Brady is a first rounder. I think Ridley will put up BJGE type numbers as a baseline and has upside from there.
Would the fact that Vereen was the one predominently practicing with the first unit at OTAs change you opinion any?
It sure would. I didn't read that news.
 
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/category/_/name/offensive-snaps

A look at the final snap counts for offensive skill-position players (minus quarterbacks) in the 2011 Patriots season, while analyzing what it means (as charted in the press box, small margin for error):

TE Rob Gronkowski -- 94.6%

WR Wes Welker -- 89.2%

TE Aaron Hernandez -- 77.1%

WR Deion Branch -- 76.0%

RB BenJarvus Green-Ellis -- 34.4%

RB Danny Woodhead -- 33.0%

WR Chad Ochocinco -- 26.3%

RB Stevan Ridley -- 14.0%

WR Julian Edelman -- 13.3%

TE Nate Solder -- 11.1%

WR Tiquan Underwood -- 7.2%

RB Kevin Faulk -- 6.5%

TE Dan Gronkowski -- 4.1%

WR Matthew Slater -- 3.3%

TE Thomas Welch -- 2.7%

RB Shane Vereen -- 1.9%

FB Lousaka Polite -- 1.3%

WR Taylor Price -- 1.3%

FB Dane Fletcher -- 1.0%

FB Donald Thomas -- 0.8%

TE Matt Light -- 0.3%

FB Ryan Wendell -- 0.3%

FB Dan Connolly -- 0.1%

TE Sebastian Vollmer -- 0.1%

 
http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/category/_/name/offensive-snapsA look at the final snap counts for offensive skill-position players (minus quarterbacks) in the 2011 Patriots season, while analyzing what it means (as charted in the press box, small margin for error):TE Rob Gronkowski -- 94.6%WR Wes Welker -- 89.2%TE Aaron Hernandez -- 77.1%WR Deion Branch -- 76.0%RB BenJarvus Green-Ellis -- 34.4%RB Danny Woodhead -- 33.0%WR Chad Ochocinco -- 26.3%RB Stevan Ridley -- 14.0%WR Julian Edelman -- 13.3%TE Nate Solder -- 11.1%WR Tiquan Underwood -- 7.2%RB Kevin Faulk -- 6.5%TE Dan Gronkowski -- 4.1%WR Matthew Slater -- 3.3%TE Thomas Welch -- 2.7%RB Shane Vereen -- 1.9%FB Lousaka Polite -- 1.3%WR Taylor Price -- 1.3%FB Dane Fletcher -- 1.0%FB Donald Thomas -- 0.8%TE Matt Light -- 0.3%FB Ryan Wendell -- 0.3%FB Dan Connolly -- 0.1%TE Sebastian Vollmer -- 0.1%
not sure what to take from this. do you?maybe gronk will see a significant drop as josh uses more 1 TE sets and switches gronk/hernandez more frequentlyeither that, or they keep welker, lloyd, gronk and hernandez on the field for most of the game, but that would mean 1 or 2 of those TEs would have to stay in to help block often.either way, i am expecting a big drop in production from gronk+hernandez
 
I think hernandez is basically a wr, and he's been catching his ### off in training camp.

mcd has traditionally been a te killer, but he hasn't had a gronk, either, and he's no dummy.

if they have a healthy fells, how many magic 3 te sets do they run?

 
maybe gronk will see a significant drop as josh uses more 1 TE sets and switches gronk/hernandez more frequently
Idk why Gronks snap count would go down, hes on the field more than everyone else for a reason. Hes their best TE, best redzone target and best blocker.
either that, or they keep welker, lloyd, gronk and hernandez on the field for most of the game, but that would mean 1 or 2 of those TEs would have to stay in to help block often.
This is the reality, the big 4 + ridley will be on the field most of if not the entire game. Hernandez has been taking a lot of snaps out of the backfield, which to me means they are gonna be running a lot more out of the no huddle and moving hernandez all over the field especially into the splitback with Ridley (much like Woodhead/Welker/Edelman have done in the past), create even more mismatches, open up even more options. Pretty much what the patriots do - but more of it.
 
maybe gronk will see a significant drop as josh uses more 1 TE sets and switches gronk/hernandez more frequently
Idk why Gronks snap count would go down, hes on the field more than everyone else for a reason. Hes their best TE, best redzone target and best blocker.
either that, or they keep welker, lloyd, gronk and hernandez on the field for most of the game, but that would mean 1 or 2 of those TEs would have to stay in to help block often.
This is the reality, the big 4 + ridley will be on the field most of if not the entire game. Hernandez has been taking a lot of snaps out of the backfield, which to me means they are gonna be running a lot more out of the no huddle and moving hernandez all over the field especially into the splitback with Ridley (much like Woodhead/Welker/Edelman have done in the past), create even more mismatches, open up even more options. Pretty much what the patriots do - but more of it.
you can't play with 12 players. lloyd will definitely play more than 76% of the snaps so something has to giveunless hernandez plays some as the only running back, i think the TEs combined will see a decrease in snaps/targets/production

it may be 95% gronk/65% hernandez, or maybe an even 80%/80% split but either way, it will go down, imo

 
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