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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (2 Viewers)

I totally disagree. 

Littlefinger didn't know it was arya.

If he did he'd have capitalized on it in some way.  That's who littlefinger is. 

The whole point of that scene is that she's in maximum danger, and we see glimpses of who she's going to become. 

She leaves king's landing as a girl, dressed as a boy, hiding the fact that she's one of the most wanted individuals in westeros. 

Tywin noticed right away that she's a girl, and figures out that she's high born by the way she says my lady instead of m'lady. She pulls the my father was a stonemason and my mother worked for a lady thing.  She even has a great move where she says her mother taught her how to speak proper... then immediately corrects herself and says properly.  That was her beginning to learn how to play the game of faces. 

That's when jackin hagar offers her 3 names. Look at who she picked.  Not tywin. Not joffrey, who had her father killed.  She didn't get revenge. She made selfless choices.  The tickler, because he was torturing people to death.  The guy who was going to report her to tywin because she was trying to help robb. And the guards to help her friends escape.  All of her choices helped people who were in danger.  The opposite of her choosing merin trant over the gambler.  

And the scene with littlefinger was the most difficult test.  He was one of the most cunning spy masters alive, suspected something was off, and she had no choice but to be in the room with him while he tried to catch a glimpse of her face. 

Compare that scene with her tip toeing through a library full of wights later, and you see she's always has this uncanny ability to move around without being noticed.  It's part of what made her an ideal assassin. 

People complained about arya killing the night king and not using her faceless man skills to kill cersei. But i think they're missing the point.  She did use the faceless man skills to kill frey. The guy who betrayed her family more than anyone.  She used her stealth that we saw with her learning from cats and overhearing varys - someone else who should have been very difficult to spy on- to sneak past the wights and white walkers and get close to the night king.  Even back in episode 1.1 when bran is practicing with the bow and an arrow suddenly hits center target from out of nowhere.  She used her fighting skills that we saw with the waif and brienne to finish the job, but it was her stealth that made her able to do it.  

And after all she learned from the hound, the last lesson was to go home and not let revenge consume her like it had done to him. 

Would i like to have seen her wear another face?  Sure, if it was a slow, methodical assassination.  But her arc was one of the best prepared in the show, and that littlefinger scene was a prime example of who she was becoming. 
Littlefinger absolutely knew who she was; he did a double take the second he saw her face and then his eyes followed her as she moved across the room, and then he made a point to mention that he had spoken to Catelyn Stark about her daughters, knowing one was right there to hear it.  He did not give her away at the time because he had nothing to gain from it, and Littlefinger was always about doing what was best for himself, first and foremost, and he already had a plan in motion.  Outing Arya could have disrupted it. 

 
Littlefinger absolutely knew who she was; he did a double take the second he saw her face and then his eyes followed her as she moved across the room, and then he made a point to mention that he had spoken to Catelyn Stark about her daughters, knowing one was right there to hear it.  He did not give her away at the time because he had nothing to gain from it, and Littlefinger was always about doing what was best for himself, first and foremost, and he already had a plan in motion.  Outing Arya could have disrupted it. 
I agree with this.  Information that you keep to yourself may have a value later.  Just revealing her identity to Tywin has none.

 
Really, the least interesting thing anyone can say is, "I didn't like it."
I get what you are saying and agree with a lot of it.  However the least interesting thing or worst thing for me that people is say is more on the lines of:  shut up and just take what the creators are giving you.  Forget that.  I would rather have people thinking about and nitpicking it than just shoving in popcorn and mindlessly consuming these things.  

I know you have discussed the difference between good and bad writing and the like in the movie threads.  We can be in awe of what it takes to make these shows and movies and still demand quality product.  

 
Mrs. Rannous said:
I agree with this.  Information that you keep to yourself may have a value later.  Just revealing her identity to Tywin has none.
I don't think so. Arya has a ton of value since Baelish had just spoken to Cat about trading *both* daughters (when they only had Sansa) for Jaime. Not to mention, Baelish gets rewarded for the Tyrell/Baratheon marriage. Facilitating the return of Jaime or just another key hostage is well worth his time. I mean, he just leaves her there no one the wiser? There is no way he would expect her to just stay there for him to pick up later. There is no guarantee she would remain there one more hour after she left Tywin and Petyr's presence.

thecatch said:
I agree with you to the extent that writers are never going to satisfy everyone with their plot decisions in how they wrap up a story.  But I think the predominant complaints about Thrones aren’t so much about the overarching plot decisions as opposed to the process by which the show got there.  Sure, a lot of people would have never been satisfied with the show ending with Bran on the Throne.  It wasn’t my first choice either, but I would have been totally fine with it if they had laid the track for the show to get that point.  The complaint that the show rushed through things like this (Dany’s heel turn being an even more egregious example) is, at least in my opinion, a more objective and reasonable basis for criticism than complaining about the substance of those plot outcomes. 
Exactly. They writers were great when they were doing book reports. They weren't that great when they had to write the book themselves.

 
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I don't think so. Arya has a ton of value since Baelish had just spoken to Cat about trading *both* daughters (when they only had Sansa) for Jaime. Not to mention, Baelish gets rewarded for the Tyrell/Baratheon marriage. Facilitating the return of Jaime or just another key hostage is well worth his time. I mean, he just leaves her there no one the wiser? There is no way he would expect her to just stay there for him to pick up later. There is no guarantee she would remain there one more hour after she left Tywin and Petyr's presence.
But knowing she is around without revealing the info gives him the ability to trade with either side later.

 
jdoggydogg said:
Here's the thing: when has this show ever cared about a satisfying ending? When The Viper fought The Mountain, we all wanted the same ending and the show didn't give it to us. 
Yet people generally loved that fight/episode and raved over it.  Because it made sense and was really well done.  The exact opposite (other than effects-wise) of this last season.

If anything the Viper/Mountain fight works counter to your point here.  It shows that people are still willing to love something even if it's not what they thought they wanted, if it is done well and makes sense.  Season 8 was neither of those things.

As to your first sentence, again it makes little sense to me.  If anything story wise the ending was OVERLY satisfying.  A show that was never going to have a happy ending had a super duper happy Hollywood ending.  If anything it was too "satisfying".  The unsatisfying part was that it was done with all the subtlety and intrigue of a Transformers movie.

 
But knowing she is around without revealing the info gives him the ability to trade with either side later.
But he doesn't really have anything to trade later. With war, famine, torturing, raping, etc. etc. occurring all around what good is it for him to say "I saw Arya 6 months ago acting as a cupbearer for Lord Tywin at Harrenhal." If he wanted to keep her as a trading piece he should've grabbed her covertly *then* (similar to what he does with Sansa after Joffrey's death). It does him no good to leave her behind.

 
Mrs. Rannous said:
It seemed to me that they telegraphed that "hell turn" for many seasons.  People just didn't want to see it, much like Tyrion.
Danaerys going mad made sense in the framework of the story, but I think her turn could have been done better. 

 
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KarmaPolice said:
I get what you are saying and agree with a lot of it.  However the least interesting thing or worst thing for me that people is say is more on the lines of:  shut up and just take what the creators are giving you.  Forget that.  I would rather have people thinking about and nitpicking it than just shoving in popcorn and mindlessly consuming these things.  

I know you have discussed the difference between good and bad writing and the like in the movie threads.  We can be in awe of what it takes to make these shows and movies and still demand quality product.  
I agree with all of this. I do, however, frame my complaints about this season within a larger scope that includes the show's genius. 

 
For you tv only troglodytes, will you read books 6 & 7 should GRRM ever get around to writing them?

 
I agree with all of this. I do, however, frame my complaints about this season within a larger scope that includes the show's genius. 
As usual, I agree with jdogg.  Their backs were against the wall on how to end this.  Even going "barebones" in action compared to other seasons, HBO still had $100 million invested in just the 6 episodes.

It'll be half a decade at least before we get another budget like this.  I'll continue to rewatch random episodes at a whim going forward.  The last season being not what I would have preferred by no means takes away from the overall quality of work.  Leaves plenty of room for the author to make things right literature-wise with fans with the last 2 books.  Although it would seem like a miracle for him to finish the last one at this point.

Watching the documentary made me appreciate the production work of the series, although the table read thing was lamer than anything I could ever imagine.  Very surprised that many people knew how it ended that far ahead of time.  Would have thought multiple endings would have been filmed just to keep it under wraps.  

 
As usual, I agree with jdogg.  Their backs were against the wall on how to end this.  Even going "barebones" in action compared to other seasons, HBO still had $100 million invested in just the 6 episodes.

It'll be half a decade at least before we get another budget like this.  I'll continue to rewatch random episodes at a whim going forward.  The last season being not what I would have preferred by no means takes away from the overall quality of work.  Leaves plenty of room for the author to make things right literature-wise with fans with the last 2 books.  Although it would seem like a miracle for him to finish the last one at this point.

Watching the documentary made me appreciate the production work of the series, although the table read thing was lamer than anything I could ever imagine.  Very surprised that many people knew how it ended that far ahead of time.  Would have thought multiple endings would have been filmed just to keep it under wraps.  
Odd, I take the opposite after watching some of this stuff.  They chose to put their backs against the wall.  It's awesome that they were in position to do that, and good on them, but they did choose it - HBO wasn't rushing them or anything.  And while watching the making of was great and seeing the amount of effort put into these shows, listening to D&D talk about the characters and how they answered some of the questions gave me the impression that they didn't seem to have many answers, which was disappointing.    Like I said before, if they were done and/or struggling with the characters and story - how hard would it have been to hire a handful of writers?  It could have been done, but IMO their hubris and desire to move on to other projects turned an epic show into a inconsistent but still mostly good show for the last few seasons.  

 
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The more I think about it....the more I really don't like everything that happened after Drogon blew up the Iron Throne.  Hell...they have a Faceless Man in Arya in Kings Landing.  Have Grey Worm come in and see Jon there with no Dany....they fight.....Arya snipes Worm takes his face and then helps Jon and Tyrion escape to the Northern Army outside the city.  

That puts all the major players together on the outside; allows them to treaty with the Unsullied/Dothraki from a position of strength. They do their council....Jon agrees to be the King,(or doesn't if you want to reinforce the idea that Jon doesn't want power), names Tyrion his Hand and tells everyone that he has something to do before he can sit on the Throne. He goes North and doesnt' come back.  Sansa's the Warden of the North. Arya gets on her boat and Bran tells everyone he needs to go to The Wall to help with a rebuild.  When told there's no need for the Wall anymore...Bran lays some cryptic "Three Eyed Raven/Lord of Light" ####  on them like "There's always a battle between Good/Bad, Ice/Fire, Light/Dark".

Someone needs to get me a writing gig on the next show....cause my #### is tight.  

 
The more I think about it....the more I really don't like everything that happened after Drogon blew up the Iron Throne.  Hell...they have a Faceless Man in Arya in Kings Landing.  Have Grey Worm come in and see Jon there with no Dany....they fight.....Arya snipes Worm takes his face and then helps Jon and Tyrion escape to the Northern Army outside the city.  

That puts all the major players together on the outside; allows them to treaty with the Unsullied/Dothraki from a position of strength. They do their council....Jon agrees to be the King,(or doesn't if you want to reinforce the idea that Jon doesn't want power), names Tyrion his Hand and tells everyone that he has something to do before he can sit on the Throne. He goes North and doesnt' come back.  Sansa's the Warden of the North. Arya gets on her boat and Bran tells everyone he needs to go to The Wall to help with a rebuild.  When told there's no need for the Wall anymore...Bran lays some cryptic "Three Eyed Raven/Lord of Light" ####  on them like "There's always a battle between Good/Bad, Ice/Fire, Light/Dark".

Someone needs to get me a writing gig on the next show....cause my #### is tight.  
Or just have Arya impersonate Dany. 

 
As usual, I agree with jdogg.  Their backs were against the wall on how to end this.  Even going "barebones" in action compared to other seasons, HBO still had $100 million invested in just the 6 episodes.

It'll be half a decade at least before we get another budget like this.  I'll continue to rewatch random episodes at a whim going forward.  The last season being not what I would have preferred by no means takes away from the overall quality of work.  Leaves plenty of room for the author to make things right literature-wise with fans with the last 2 books.  Although it would seem like a miracle for him to finish the last one at this point.

Watching the documentary made me appreciate the production work of the series, although the table read thing was lamer than anything I could ever imagine.  Very surprised that many people knew how it ended that far ahead of time.  Would have thought multiple endings would have been filmed just to keep it under wraps.  
I want to make it clear that I think the show had a few problems these last couple of seasons. I guess I am fatigued by the constant and erosive effects that criticism takes in the modern world. 

 
Mrs. Rannous said:
It seemed to me that they telegraphed that "hell turn" for many seasons.  People just didn't want to see it, much like Tyrion.
Ultimately it comes down to... I am the storyteller.  I need to make the action believable to my audience.  That's my responsibility.

It doesn't matter whether I think people should have seen enough for it to become believable.  If the bulk of them didn't, then I failed at that bit of storytelling.  Not them, me.  The whole point of telling the story is to get it across to the audience.

(Unless you are Rian Johnson and your stated goal is to have equal amounts of people hate your story as love it.)

 
But he doesn't really have anything to trade later. With war, famine, torturing, raping, etc. etc. occurring all around what good is it for him to say "I saw Arya 6 months ago acting as a cupbearer for Lord Tywin at Harrenhal." If he wanted to keep her as a trading piece he should've grabbed her covertly *then* (similar to what he does with Sansa after Joffrey's death). It does him no good to leave her behind.
If he gives her away to Tywin, that info is going to get out.  It makes the Starks enemies forever.  Not to his purpose at all.

 
If he gives her away to Tywin, that info is going to get out.  It makes the Starks enemies forever.  Not to his purpose at all.
Exactly.  Littlefinger was playing a long game.  And for as much awful stuff as he did on the show, he did aid in Joffrey's murder and then basically saved the battle of the bastards for Jon and the others.  He deserved what Arya gave to him, but I will give him a little props for those things, even if they were purely made for his own interests rather than doing it for the greater good. 

 
Exactly.  Littlefinger was playing a long game.  And for as much awful stuff as he did on the show, he did aid in Joffrey's murder and then basically saved the battle of the bastards for Jon and the others.  He deserved what Arya gave to him, but I will give him a little props for those things, even if they were purely made for his own interests rather than doing it for the greater good. 
Mr R and I always hissed gently when he smoothed into a room.

 
If he gives her away to Tywin, that info is going to get out.  It makes the Starks enemies forever.  Not to his purpose at all.
Wait... just prior to this conversation Cat slapped him because she thinks he betrayed Ned - which he did. He isn't on her side either when they meet. He also is responsible for killing Lysa and Jon Arryn and lied about the dagger.  Littlefinger doesn't like the Starks. He doesn't care if they don't like him - especially if their House is eradicated.

 
Wait... just prior to this conversation Cat slapped him because she thinks he betrayed Ned - which he did. He isn't on her side either when they meet. He also is responsible for killing Lysa and Jon Arryn and lied about the dagger.  Littlefinger doesn't like the Starks. He doesn't care if they don't like him - especially if their House is eradicated.
He needs to be able to play the Starks against the Lannisters.  It's how he plans to gain the crown.

 
He needs to be able to play the Starks against the Lannisters.  It's how he plans to gain the crown.
They are already at war. Ned is dead. Jon Arryn is dead. Robert is dead. If he only cared about gaining the Throne he wouldn't have arranged for the Tyrell/Lannister marriage. That pretty much makes the Lannisters the winners. He also likely would've handled the Jaime/Cersei relationship differently. 

You do know the face is a part of the body, right?
And? 

 
I think GRR might turn into real genius here. As a tv-only participant in this story, I’m aware of the angst on the book side of his ability to get the stories done. 

If we are to believe he fed the writers his real ending, what better way to move along a block in wrapping the story other than to feed them one of the proposed endings and see what the market thinks?

Now seeing fan reaction, there’s no way the books play out the same way and GRR reclaims the genius throne for giving the fans a better ending. 

 
He needs to be able to play the Starks against the Lannisters.  It's how he plans to gain the crown.
If you re-watch the scene (link below, the last minute of the clip), there are three phases to Littlefinger reacting to Arya. 

Phase 1: he sees her face when he turns to his right, does a double take, and then quickly looks to his left as she walks that way, almost like he is thinking, "wait, is that the Stark girl?" 

Phase 2: when she pours wine on his hand, he says, "it's only wine," and kind of avoids looking at her directly, almost like he doesn't want her to know that he recognized her, and then when she turns, he literally leans forward while looking to his right to try and get a better look to confirm that she really is who he thinks she is. 

Phase 3: his eyes follow her across the room as he starts talking to Tywin again and the way he looks gives indicates that he is sure she is a Stark, and he then leads into telling Tywin about how he met with Catelyn Stark about her daughters, and the way he pronounces the word 'daughters' makes it clear that he wanted Arya to hear what he was saying. 

Brilliantly acted scene by both Maisie Williams and Aidan Gillen (and of course Charles Dance, who was incredible in every single scene he was in). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9jac7Qg9w4

 
Wait... just prior to this conversation Cat slapped him because she thinks he betrayed Ned - which he did. He isn't on her side either when they meet. He also is responsible for killing Lysa and Jon Arryn and lied about the dagger.  Littlefinger doesn't like the Starks. He doesn't care if they don't like him - especially if their House is eradicated.
Do you believe LF when he talks about his love for Cat?

 
LF is playing "Titles Beget Titles"......but he's not such in control that he was able to see where it was all going when he poisoned Jon Arryn.  

 

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