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Patriots being investigated after Colts game (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter HobbesAB
- Start date
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If I had a point, it would be that there are so many different opinions on things that people will label things completely differently. Using my example again . . .
What would people have to say about each of the following . . .
- Taking a single pen home accidently?
- Taking a single pen home on purpose?
- Taking a box of pens home on purpose?
- Taking a case of pens home intentionally to give to your friends?
- Taking multiple cases of pens home to give to whomever because your department had money in the budget and had to "use it or lose it?"
- Being a CEO making $30 million a year and taking pens whenever you damn well fell like it.
Again, the point being there are a lot of different ways people can process and label things.
Getting back to the under inflation of the footballs, it could be an oversight. It could be a manufacturing defect. It could be a league official that got a kicking ball and a game ball mixed up. It could be a bitter Colts reporter just spewing things on the web with no real validity. There are a lot of potential explanations.
And let's say the Pats actually did take air out of some footballs. Someone has to prove it. And even if someone could, they won't forfeit the game, and their penalty might be a lost draft pick. It is not a major infraction even if it were true.
Haters gonna hate.
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
Pats fans.... Im looking for a YES or NO response.
Is deflating game balls to get a competitive advantage cheating?
YES or NO?
Note: I am not accusing the Patriots of doing this or asking about their specific situation. Im just asking if it is by rule a cheating offense.
Is deflating game balls to get a competitive advantage cheating?
YES or NO?
Note: I am not accusing the Patriots of doing this or asking about their specific situation. Im just asking if it is by rule a cheating offense.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
"Intent" is a major element in most crimes. As far as being fired? Truth be told most of us likely work in "at will" states where you can be fired for any, or no, reason at all provided there isn't any racial, sexual or other prejudicial reasons.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
well, I think what you're forgetting is that time leads to a lot of hazy and incomplete memories.No one can take away your enjoyment as a classless organization. That is really awesome for your city. In all honesty I would take it if it were my city. But own it man. You have a sketchy team. So enjoy this time but 20 years from now when they compare dynasties lets see how it all plays out and what people actually give them credit for.Embrace the stupidity and let us Pats fans know how it turns out. We'll be here, busy making plans for the Super Bowl
people will tend to remember the glory days of these dynasties and forget the details.
like with san fran --- how often do you hear people writing off that dynasty because they had to outspend the league to buy championships?
or the steroids that paved the way for pittsburgh's short lived domination?
how about the salary cap cheating the broncos used to practice to get that unfair edge which led to titles?
most of that stuff is long forgotten
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
did you sign the pen out with the office supplies closet coordinator or simply pocket it?
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think most of the rational people are saying "if true" (meaning that the Pats did so intentionally) then this puts another stain on their legacy. A minor stain, of course.
bradyfan
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Just as much cheating as a roughing the passer penalty, hitting a defenseless receiver in the head, stretching the truth on an injury report, having a coach on the field of play to disrupt a kick returner, messing with the salary cap, or stealing another team's signals, having the clock operator run off some extra time, having too many practices in pads, spying on another team's practice, faking an injury to slow down a hurry up offense, or taking steroids. They are all forms of cheating, and the list and examples could go on and on and the team's that have done stuff could go on and on. Yahoos like us on a public forum could be outraged, but most of current and former players accept that stuff like that goes on. All. The. Time.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Road Warriors
Footballguy
I don't think so.pizzatyme said:
If I recall, any first touch by the 5 ineligible players is a "illegal touching" penalty. Similar to a QB trying to throw a ball away that hits one of his lineman.
bradyfan
Footballguy
I don't like the pens at work. For a competitive advantage, I bring my own pens from home.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Incorrect. Anyone can catch a lateral. EXHIBIT A: look what happens at the end of games when teams throw the ball backwards to anyone and everywhere with 47 laterals.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
fair enough.
Now answer this, if a person cheats and roughs the passer or holds, does that play stand?
No the play does not stand, they get punished for cheating. The play doesn't count and the cheating team loses yards. So if that is the case then that game should not count if they get caught cheating.
Now you say "oh it didn't effect the game". Also true, but I have seen plenty of holding calls on the backside of the play that had zero effect on the play and it still got called a holding.
So if they get caught, then does that game not count cause they cheated?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I think what bugs people the most is that BB really doesn't give a rat's backside about what anyone thinks about what he does. He is never going to change, and people get morally offended that he did something else or tried to push the envelope over and over again. What NFL fans should want is THEIR TEAM to try doing some of the same things (or come up with some new ones).
I have posted over the years that teams that don't win have done some shady things, but since they aren't winning they get buried in the paper next to the retractions and ads for liposuction instead of front page news.
I have posted over the years that teams that don't win have done some shady things, but since they aren't winning they get buried in the paper next to the retractions and ads for liposuction instead of front page news.
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
The difference is that these losing teams that do shady things also aren't getting credit for being the best. So no one has to argue against it. No one gives a rip if a no name juices and stays a no name. But it pisses people off when a guy juices and then tries to claim himself as the best ever.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
I said first touch, but after reading the other responses I realize I was wrong. Any of the 11 can run the ball. My bad.
the moops
Footballguy
If a roughing the passer or illegal hit to the head or whatever gets discovered after the fact, the play certainly does stand.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Why are you making up all of these analogies to which to compare it when you don't even know exactly what they did (if anything)?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
We could do this all day long, but I will bite at least for now. You can't regulate everything. If guys are found to have used PEDs, the team doesn't forfeit. If a guy is found to have a non-compliant contract per the CBA or salary cap, they don't make the player sit out. If a stadium puts blowers on for a long FG attempt to try to get an extra yard or two on the kick they don't forfeit the game.
Again as I have outlined a ton of examples at the pro or youth levels, teams will do whatever they can to try to win, whether it is considered cheating or not. For youth leagues with weight restrictions, I have seen coaches intentionally make the scale add 3-4 pounds to kids' weights so they couldn't play. I have seen kids weigh in without their required equipment on to make weight. I have seen clock operators "accidently" pull the plug on the scoreboard and change everything that was on it but the score to gain an advantage (down and distance, add a timeout, change the time), etc. Coaches would put guys in the trees at other team's practices to tape their practices. I even heard of a team bugging the opponent's locker room to listen in on what they were playing and what some of their audibles would be.
Bottom line, cheating is so prevalent in sports that if you aren't doing it you really aren't trying. Sad but true.
So sure, to the letter of the law the Patriots are "cheaters." I can see how that would offend people and thing that that alone should cause NE to be stripped of their titles and have to vacate their victories. And I can see that perspective. I personally don't agree with it, but people can have that opinion. But when guys like Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cower literally laugh at people that are offended by what the Pats have done and launch into stories about all the things that have been done over the year, that tells me that it really isn't that big a deal.
I put everything in my theory of relativity model. Is 60 degrees hot or cold? It depends if you live in Alaska or the Equator. To some what the Patriots have done is cheating at the highest order. To others it's driving 56 in a 55 mph speed zone.
Flying Elvis
Footballguy
Pretty spot on, imo. I do think deflating balls intentionally constitutes cheating. I feel the same way about taping signals, particularly after it was clearly a point of emphasis from the league offices.
It's just that it's not really a huge deal. It's a little disappointing (this one especially, if true, given the hate that already exists) but isn't something i consider to be outside the general realm of sports. People like to get worked up and take the moral high ground and it's always a big story when it's the top dog(s) committing the transgression. Acting like it's not common place is folly. That doesn't make it right, but it makes it far less relevant when taken in context.
YES
...clearly, NE was trying to give the Colts an advantage so they could at least make a game of it. Their game plan was to run Blount heavy and deflate balls so Luck could pass better and keep it close.
Run It Up
Footballguy
@Tom_Winter
BREAKING: New England Patriots' Vince Wilfork helped pull a woman out of an overturned jeep following yesterday's game - @MassStatePolice
Misdirection, or coverup?
BREAKING: New England Patriots' Vince Wilfork helped pull a woman out of an overturned jeep following yesterday's game - @MassStatePolice
Misdirection, or coverup?
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
Do you not hear how that sounds?
All those mentioned are all scumbags moves and yes, should be labeled as classless. Shaving weight in little league football to gain an advantage is gross and just because there are teams that do it doesn't make it less gross.
If you cheat then you are a cheater.
You cannot take back that return where Tomlin slowed down the returner, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make him look like a complete #######. You cant take away from the win because it has already passed. But if they do get caught cheating they will be looked like all the other scumbags that you had mentioned in your post. Those who do dirty moves outside of the rules to gain advantage.
Shawn Merriman was a beast, and then got busted for PEDs. That's how people remember him.
Even Ray Lewis was accused of some sketchy stuff and he was the best ever and still has a dark cloud over his head.
BB wins will stand but it will always be associated with cheating. Sorry bud
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Perhaps second only to Baltimore tears.bostonfred said:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I could care less what people label them as. It is not going to change my opinion any. And whatever you or anyone else things, it won't sway BB's opinion. He will say he won his titles fair and square.
Things are best summarized by a line from the movie The Sting . . . "What was I supposed to do - call him for cheating better than me?" Sadly, that is where we are at. Lots of teams break the rules or push the intent of the rules, some more than others. I agree it is wrong, but it is what it is.
I'd hate to know what all teams are actively doing to "cheat"/"gain a competitive advantage" that we have no clue about...if you think BB is the only one living and dying by certain activities, think again. NE is just that team always in the spotlight because of their successes. Haters are gonna hate. That's just the way it is.
Does any of it make it right? No. Maybe. Who really cares? People trying to be football purists for criminy sakes...its pathetic. Move on and enjoy the 2 best teams in football this year battle it out on 2/1.
Does any of it make it right? No. Maybe. Who really cares? People trying to be football purists for criminy sakes...its pathetic. Move on and enjoy the 2 best teams in football this year battle it out on 2/1.
johnnycakes
Footballguy
Remember in the days of Billy Ball when Billy Martin was the manager of the A's? This is the football version of Billy Ball with BB.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Pats fans, please don't feed the trolls, do a search on DI's posts and you can see he is likely using an alias (all you see is infrequent pats hater pro manning posts), likely a bitter Colts\Manning fan. He becomes only the 3rd poster\alias (in 14 years) to make it to my ignore list and I urge everyone else does likewise.
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Deamon
Footballguy
if the pats win the superbowl will you just be quiet already? you sound so pathetic and I'm not even a pats fan.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
The Jeep would never have overturned in the first place if Belichick hadn't let half the air out of its tires.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
ah okay, that makes sense. he isn't even talking football, he just keeps throwing that dirty "cheater!" word around without any backing. Taking the win away from them? Ha!
He will NEVER acknowledge, and will always come up with some BS comeback to:
A: Indy balls are being investigated too (it doesn't matter, pats still cheated more)
B: Pats have a better record since spygate (oh oh but they haven't got a superbowl!)
C: Pats scored MUCH more in the 2nd half after said balls were removed (oh but that doesn't matter, they still cheated!)
D: No proof at ALL has even came out and this could just be ---- sounds like this is --- just a total overblown story that the league will diminish hopefully soon (oh but they for sure did it!)
Give it up already. The Pats aren't even my team and I want them to win so badly just to shut everyone up already.
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
I will make a deal. If there are not found cheating and beat SEA then yes. I will not post a single comment about NE
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
Ever again?
Can't wait for this. Surely with this post you just swayed every neutral super bowl fan to cheer for NE so this happens.
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
Sorry to say, not a Colts fan. I do think Manning is the best but that's just out of pure opinion of his skill.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Why in the heck am I paying for you to go to school if you aren't learning anything. Now put those electronics away and read a book.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The other element here is the paranoia in sports over potential cheating. For years and years, I covered youth sports for local newspapers and web sites. I walked the sidelines of football games with rosters of the teams and a notebook, and I jotted down the particulars of the big plays. I also kept a tally of individual plays to add up the stats at the end of the game. On many occasions coaches were CONVINCED I was spying and relaying information to the other sideline. Several times coaches tried to have me removed and called security or the cops. A couple times they made me empty my pockets, checked my ID, and went through everything I had written down and my texts.
Devine Intervention
Footballguy
Bingo. And not that you care to notice or do I care if you do but my posts usually give BB credit.
I am a firm believer that Tom Brady has success because of BB. Most of my posts take credit away from Brady and give it to BB.
I do think that with the track record he already has of cheating, this will really take away from any deserved success.
As mentioned before when compared to a great run and the backside tackle holds. It wasn't needed, it has no effect on the plays outcome but it diminishes a great play. If they get caught cheating it takes away from a game they deserved to win and was a dumb move.
Pats fans need to just come to the reality that if he did this it was stupid. It wasn't needed and it lacks class.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Gandalf the Grey
Footballguy
Haven't read most of this thread but how many asterisks are we up to now? Starting to lose track.
