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Starting a QB to "neutralize" a top WR (1 Viewer)

Porkos

Footballguy
I am wondering if there is any data or information to back up this strategy. More specifically, have any of you here on the forums started a QB to neutralize a top WR on your opponents team? For example, (and please don't take this as a WDIS question). I have both Dalton and Roethlisberger. Ginger has been absolutely lights out all season. However, my opponent this week has Antonio Brown. My brain tells me to start Big Ben to neutralize Antonio Brown but I was wondering if there is any data to support the theory of changing your starting lineup to cancel out an opposing WR?

Again, please don't take this as a WDIS question as that is not my intent. Any opinions would be welcomed.

Thanks in advance. If the thread needs to be moved by all means feel free.

 
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So you'd rather sit Dalton's 25 and take Ben's 20 because he throws to Brown?
How do you know Dalton will score more? You don't. Nobody knows who's going to score more points, that's why "whoever scores the most" a lazy answer that misses the point.To the OP: ONLY use that criteria as a tiebreaker. Ask yourself this before deciding: do you think your team overall is the favorite in your matchup or the underdog? If you're the favorite, start Ben. If you're the underdog, start Dalton to create more variance.

Oh and in before Harstad

 
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If you really believe it's a coin flip between two guys, then I'll consider playing the qb/wr/whatever to hopefully mitigate any monster game.

But my two options have to be fairly equal AND I need to feel confident I'm going to win. IE I don't need a monster performance as the underdog.

 
Last Week:

I had to choose between Rivers and Tannehil, my opponent had Jarvis Landry. I was contemplating Tannehil to "neutralize" Landry. And after Tannehil's first half, I was kicking myself as I went with Rivers.

Rivers ended up with 33 to Tannehil's 31.

Play the guy who you think will score the most points.

 
Ted Lange alluded to Adam Harstad eventually chiming in based upon an article he wrote last year, but here is the gist:(

The object of each FF game of yours is NOT to score the most possible points, it is strictly to score more points than your opponent that week.

The example I believe he used was this (and remember, this was based on where they were playing and performances last year): Going into Monday night you and your opponent are tied and he only has Brees left. You have a flex spot left and can choose between Khiry Ribinson and Jimmy Graham. If your object is to score the most points, you go with Graham, since he is projected higher than Robinson. But since the goal is to win the game, not score the most points, the correct move is to start Robinson since unlike Graham, not all of Robinson potential points are directly linked to your opponent's player.

As for your specific situation, here is the general rule: if the players are close in projects points, pick the player linked to your opponent's player if you are the favorite, because this reduces variance. The opposite is true if you are the underdog - pick players not linked to your opponent as to increase variance, and thus, your chances of pulling off the upset.

Edit: Walking Boot beat me to a lot of it while I was typing.

 
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If it is before the week starts, play who you think will score the most.

If some games have been played and each of your teams has have several players play, i can see starting the same QB as your opponents WR if you have lead to try and neutralize some points.

Otherwise i dont care who my opponent has in his lineup.

 
Last Week:

I had to choose between Rivers and Tannehil, my opponent had Jarvis Landry. I was contemplating Tannehil to "neutralize" Landry. And after Tannehil's first half, I was kicking myself as I went with Rivers.

Rivers ended up with 33 to Tannehil's 31.

Play the guy who you think will score the most points.
Well this settles it.

 
I've always felt that having the WR is better than having the QB in this spot because every play the QB makes to the WR increases the WR team's score by more points on the same play. Big Ben's likelihood for a big game is usually linked to Antonio Brown having a big game, especially given the offense and Brown's talent. So I think if you play Big Ben you cap yourself more than you cap your opponent and also if PIT gets shut down you are worse off if you have the QB.

 
I agree with Walking Boot and MJM, but I will add some detailed specifics to illustrate the point:

I analyzed the first 7 weeks of this season and measured every WR and QB who scored 30 points or more that week (in my PPR league on MFL). There were a total of 19 WRs and 26 QBs. Of these 19 WRs, 6 times their QB was also a scorer of 30 points or more, so 6/19 = 31% of the time this had a correlation.

Julio and Hopkins made the list a couple of times, but Matt Ryan never made the list, and Hoyer made the list once. Antonio Brown/Big Ben each made the list once, but I suspect they would have made it multiple times if Ben was not injured.

In my mind, there are only three stud WRs whose production would 'scare' me enough to worry about neutralizing them: Julio, Hopkins, A. Brown - and I would only consider playing Big Ben against Brown in this case. Of course, if I have Big Ben he probably is my starter every week anyway...

 
How much will it help though? For instance, in week 6 Peyton scored 8 pts while Demaryius still had 26 in PPR. So you wouldn't have neutralized anything if you started Peyton.

 
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I've always felt that having the WR is better than having the QB in this spot because every play the QB makes to the WR increases the WR team's score by more points on the same play. Big Ben's likelihood for a big game is usually linked to Antonio Brown having a big game, especially given the offense and Brown's talent. So I think if you play Big Ben you cap yourself more than you cap your opponent and also if PIT gets shut down you are worse off if you have the QB.
Exactly.
 
I have the opposite today. Up by 31 in PPR and he has Rodgers and Adams left. I was planning to start Sanders in the flex but now wondering if I should start Cobb in this situation to guard against a big game from Rodgers.

 
I've always felt that having the WR is better than having the QB in this spot because every play the QB makes to the WR increases the WR team's score by more points on the same play. Big Ben's likelihood for a big game is usually linked to Antonio Brown having a big game, especially given the offense and Brown's talent. So I think if you play Big Ben you cap yourself more than you cap your opponent and also if PIT gets shut down you are worse off if you have the QB.
Wish I'd listened to this

 
I've always felt that having the WR is better than having the QB in this spot because every play the QB makes to the WR increases the WR team's score by more points on the same play. Big Ben's likelihood for a big game is usually linked to Antonio Brown having a big game, especially given the offense and Brown's talent. So I think if you play Big Ben you cap yourself more than you cap your opponent and also if PIT gets shut down you are worse off if you have the QB.
Here's the problem with that logic: If you have a stud QB/WR like Ben/Brown, there's no strategy needed because you are almost certainly starting both.

If you don't have a stud WR, then there are no guarantees you'll "neutralize" anyone. Maybe you start Moncrief against Luck and Hilton lights it up. Or you start Ginn and Cam throws everything to Olsen.

Only scenario where it might enter into your thinking is a mediocre QB with a stud WR, say, starting Hoyer over another middling QB because you're facing Hopkins. But then, as you said, the WR is getting more per catch than his QB. Still, in that situation if you're the heavy favorite it could at least somewhat mitigate Hopkins going off. I still would only use it as an absolute tie-breaker between a very close call.

(Incidentally, I faced that scenario last week -- no strategy behind it, Hoyer was the best QB option available -- and as it happened, he threw three TDs, none to Nuk. That was awesome.)

 
I have an interesting matchup tonight, that I think favors me. I have Luck going against Hilton. I'm up by 1 point. IMO, if Hilton has a good game, that means Luck probably had a good game. If Hilton underperforms, that means Luck underperformed. It's going to come to down to the wire, but I think Luck can do it.

 
Ted Lange alluded to Adam Harstad eventually chiming in based upon an article he wrote last year, but here is the gist:(

The object of each FF game of yours is NOT to score the most possible points, it is strictly to score more points than your opponent that week.

The example I believe he used was this (and remember, this was based on where they were playing and performances last year): Going into Monday night you and your opponent are tied and he only has Brees left. You have a flex spot left and can choose between Khiry Ribinson and Jimmy Graham. If your object is to score the most points, you go with Graham, since he is projected higher than Robinson. But since the goal is to win the game, not score the most points, the correct move is to start Robinson since unlike Graham, not all of Robinson potential points are directly linked to your opponent's player.

As for your specific situation, here is the general rule: if the players are close in projects points, pick the player linked to your opponent's player if you are the favorite, because this reduces variance. The opposite is true if you are the underdog - pick players not linked to your opponent as to increase variance, and thus, your chances of pulling off the upset.

Edit: Walking Boot beat me to a lot of it while I was typing.
Sorry, I missed the thread this weekend. Anyway, past seasons' articles are always available for free for non-subscribers. Which is particularly handy for me, since I'm mostly writing strategy pieces and very little of it is time-sensitive. If anyone wants to read the article in question, it's right here.

I do agree with the general consensus. Prior to the week kicking off, unless you are a *severe* favorite or underdog, it's probably pointless to worry about "neutralizing" anyone. There's far too much uncertainty for it to be worth doing anything other than just trying to maximize your points.

After the Sunday afternoon slate has been played, there's usually a good time for reflection on the scoreboard. At that point, with 80-90% of each team's weekly score decided and only one or two players left to go, it's a lot easier to identify situations where reducing variance will make a difference.

In that case, your goal should be simplifying the story of your comeback, (or making the story of the other owner's comeback more complicated). If you have a big lead going into Monday night, and the opposing player is starting Cam Newton, and you have a choice between starting Indy's defense or Carolina's defense, and your defensive scoring is a heavy performance-based scoring where defenses could even possibly go negative... you should probably be starting Carolina's defense.

If you start Indy, the path to a comeback becomes much simpler. The other owner needs Cam Newton to have a great game and Indy's defense to have a terrible game. But a great game by Newton and a terrible game by Indy's defense are the same thing.

If you start Carolina, the other owner needs a great game by Cam Newton and a bad game by Carolina's defense, which is two different things. It's like forcing him to hit on a parlay, and there's a reason why parlays pay out so well; it's much harder to hit them, even when the odds of each individual component are pretty favorable.

 
The object of each FF game of yours is NOT to score the most possible points, it is strictly to score more points than your opponent that week.
Many leagues have total points factored into playoff berths so the object is to win that week AND score the most points. I don't know what the percentages are but I don't play in any entirely H2H leagues anymore. All of them have total points playing a huge role in who makes the playoffs.

 
I've always felt that having the WR is better than having the QB in this spot because every play the QB makes to the WR increases the WR team's score by more points on the same play. Big Ben's likelihood for a big game is usually linked to Antonio Brown having a big game, especially given the offense and Brown's talent. So I think if you play Big Ben you cap yourself more than you cap your opponent and also if PIT gets shut down you are worse off if you have the QB.
Here's the problem with that logic: If you have a stud QB/WR like Ben/Brown, there's no strategy needed because you are almost certainly starting both.

If you don't have a stud WR, then there are no guarantees you'll "neutralize" anyone. Maybe you start Moncrief against Luck and Hilton lights it up. Or you start Ginn and Cam throws everything to Olsen.

Only scenario where it might enter into your thinking is a mediocre QB with a stud WR, say, starting Hoyer over another middling QB because you're facing Hopkins. But then, as you said, the WR is getting more per catch than his QB. Still, in that situation if you're the heavy favorite it could at least somewhat mitigate Hopkins going off. I still would only use it as an absolute tie-breaker between a very close call.

(Incidentally, I faced that scenario last week -- no strategy behind it, Hoyer was the best QB option available -- and as it happened, he threw three TDs, none to Nuk. That was awesome.)
What if you have 2 stud options at QB and you're facing one of the QBs stud WR though? (That's what we are talking about.)

 
The object of each FF game of yours is NOT to score the most possible points, it is strictly to score more points than your opponent that week.
Many leagues have total points factored into playoff berths so the object is to win that week AND score the most points. I don't know what the percentages are but I don't play in any entirely H2H leagues anymore. All of them have total points playing a huge role in who makes the playoffs.
99% of the time (pure guesstimating, but intuitively it makes sense) the lineup that will score you the most points and the lineup that gives you the best chance of winning will be exactly the same. It's just in these rare instances of being a heavy favorite or underdog, or certain linked Monday night scenarios that the two goals might diverge.

And yes, total points are often used as tiebreakers, but 1. The difference in points between the two strategies for a single game often isn't a significant amount compared to season-total points (the difference in points if this happens only once in a season - the most likely scenario - isn't likely to be the difference between being ahead or behind in points with your competitor for the playoff spot) and 2. In H2H leagues, you do have to make sure you win the most amount of games first, and then worry about tiebreakers.

 
Start the guy who is going to get you more points. Period.
This is not true.

In the following scenario, you are doing it wrong if you don't start the QB throwing to the opponent's WR.

You have two QBs on your roster. One is starting sunday night and one is starting monday night. You and your opponent have had all players play already heading into Sunday night except your opponent has one WR left and you have aforementioned QB.

You are winning by a ton of points(like 30+). You need a win badly.

You should start the QB throwing to your opponent's WR.

This isn't common. I have been in this scenario exactly once.

 
Ted Lange alluded to Adam Harstad eventually chiming in based upon an article he wrote last year, but here is the gist:(

The object of each FF game of yours is NOT to score the most possible points, it is strictly to score more points than your opponent that week.

The example I believe he used was this (and remember, this was based on where they were playing and performances last year): Going into Monday night you and your opponent are tied and he only has Brees left. You have a flex spot left and can choose between Khiry Ribinson and Jimmy Graham. If your object is to score the most points, you go with Graham, since he is projected higher than Robinson. But since the goal is to win the game, not score the most points, the correct move is to start Robinson since unlike Graham, not all of Robinson potential points are directly linked to your opponent's player.

As for your specific situation, here is the general rule: if the players are close in projects points, pick the player linked to your opponent's player if you are the favorite, because this reduces variance. The opposite is true if you are the underdog - pick players not linked to your opponent as to increase variance, and thus, your chances of pulling off the upset.

Edit: Walking Boot beat me to a lot of it while I was typing.
Sorry, I missed the thread this weekend. Anyway, past seasons' articles are always available for free for non-subscribers. Which is particularly handy for me, since I'm mostly writing strategy pieces and very little of it is time-sensitive. If anyone wants to read the article in question, it's right here.

I do agree with the general consensus. Prior to the week kicking off, unless you are a *severe* favorite or underdog, it's probably pointless to worry about "neutralizing" anyone. There's far too much uncertainty for it to be worth doing anything other than just trying to maximize your points.

After the Sunday afternoon slate has been played, there's usually a good time for reflection on the scoreboard. At that point, with 80-90% of each team's weekly score decided and only one or two players left to go, it's a lot easier to identify situations where reducing variance will make a difference.

In that case, your goal should be simplifying the story of your comeback, (or making the story of the other owner's comeback more complicated). If you have a big lead going into Monday night, and the opposing player is starting Cam Newton, and you have a choice between starting Indy's defense or Carolina's defense, and your defensive scoring is a heavy performance-based scoring where defenses could even possibly go negative... you should probably be starting Carolina's defense.

If you start Indy, the path to a comeback becomes much simpler. The other owner needs Cam Newton to have a great game and Indy's defense to have a terrible game. But a great game by Newton and a terrible game by Indy's defense are the same thing.

If you start Carolina, the other owner needs a great game by Cam Newton and a bad game by Carolina's defense, which is two different things. It's like forcing him to hit on a parlay, and there's a reason why parlays pay out so well; it's much harder to hit them, even when the odds of each individual component are pretty favorable.
Thanks for the great post.I need to re-read that article. I remember glancing at it but not digesting the content because my preconceived bias reaction was "Holy ####! Adam believes in the cancel out theory? This is like finding out Steven Hawking checks his horoscope daily."

(backhanded compliment - your articles are ALWAYS cogent & well reasoned)

 
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Thanks for the great post.

I need to re-read that article. I remember glancing at it but not digesting the content because my preconceived bias reaction was "Holy ####! Adam believes in the cancel out theory? This is like finding out Steven Hawking checks his horoscope daily."

(backhanded compliment - your articles are ALWAYS cogent & well reasoned)
Hah, thanks, and I took it as such.

95% of the time I would totally agree with you. I think people spend far too much time worrying about the other team's roster, especially before the week even begins when there's just so much uncertainty at play. You really have to be a very substantial favorite or underdog before you should even give a fleeting thought to canceling that far out. (Variance, on the other hand, is a different story.)

But there are usually one or two times a season after the Sunday games where you've got enough information to switch from "point maximizing" to "win optimizing" mode. The easiest example would be if you've got a 5 point lead, your opponent is done for the day, your defense has yet to play, and defenses can go negative. If you're allowed, that's a good time to swap out and start a defense on bye; 5 points is robust enough to survive pretty much any stat corrections, so guaranteeing a zero takes you from a 95+% win chance to a 100% win chance.

I wrote the article after I had a "call my shot" moment in one of my leagues. I outlined a scenario where the guy playing me should have switched from a "point maximizing" to a "win optimizing" strategy, but I actually was chatting about it in advance with one of my buddies, saying "you know, I've got very little chance at this comeback, but I think my odds would decrease significantly if he swapped his defenses". And he didn't, and I made the miracle comeback. Again, not an every-week situation, but maybe you can add a fraction of a win per year, on average. Little fractions add up; that extra win for me was the difference between being eliminated in the semis and losing the superbowl last year.

 
Got a two point win because I started Snead going against an opponent with Brees, who put up 51 points.

 

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