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Getting old is terrible... Assisted suicide yay/nay? (1 Viewer)

Should assisted suicide be allowed for the elderly?

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 64.2%

  • Under most circumstances

    Votes: 34 21.4%

  • Under very particular cicrumstances

    Votes: 20 12.6%

  • Almost always no

    Votes: 3 1.9%

  • Never

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    159
fantasycurse42

fantasycurse42

Footballguy Jr.
I saw my Grandpa yesterday, really upsetting... He recognized me, but barely. He is late 80's, can hardly see or hear, memory is almost gone, in a wheelchair, and has a neck brace on. He is in a nice nice place that is great for around the clock care, but this was a great man and now he is just suffering. He flirted with my wife lol, but I just feel so bad for the guy. 

He didn't talk much, but he mentioned in a strong confident voice that he is absolutely miserable. My Grandma died almost 20 years ago and he had been living on his own up until 5-6 years ago when he moved from Florida to an assisted living in New York State. The last 5 or 6 years have been a steady decline for the old timer. I wanted him to meet his latest grandson at least once so I was with a 6 week old and my wife, I had to fight back tears big time. I visited my Grandma on the other side by myself 6 months ago, she had no clue who I was, was somewhat dirty (clothing), itchy, and looked awful. When I got in my car to leave that was prob the only time I've really cried in forever. 

These were people who were so good to me when I was a little boy and growing up and now they're just miserable shells of themselves. I asked my Grandpa if I can get him something yesterday, he asked for a bottle of vodka, my buddy :)  At this point, I obviously can't do that for him though :kicksrock:  A year ago before he had dropped into the state he is in now, we had a family get together and he was sitting on the couch, nobody would let him drink anything, so I snuck him a few cups, he was flirting with my Aunt's husband's 85 year old mom (completely unrelated). #### it, he deserved it, I got yelled at by my family, but whatever, I'd do it again. Poor guy doesn't have much left to live for and as mentioned, he was a great man.

IDK, I'm just ranting. Really, I'd like to get my Grandpa a bottle of vodka, a hooker, and then help him die afterwards - He really is miserable and I feel terrible.

Curious if you feel assisted suicide in this kind of condition should be allowed? I'm not talking about a depressed 35 year old, I'm talking about the extreme elderly, still mentally capable, but mind and body are absolutely on the way out.

 
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My wife and I have decided that we will probably retire to a state that allows assisted suicide.

 
Dr. Kevorkian was ahead of his time, IMO.  I wonder if his story would be better received today than it was in 1999.

As Bucky pointed out above, it is morally acceptable to put down a pet that is suffering but not a loved one that clearly no longer has a quality of life or in some type of terminal pain?  

Yes, it should be allowed based on patient/family wishes.  

 
Bucky86 said:
We do it for our pets, but force our loved ones to suffer long past they're ready to go?
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Yeah this always drives me nuts. It's considered inhumane to let a dog continue to suffer, but we basically store people away in warehouses to piss and #### themselves for years until they finally wither away and croak. By any rational analysis, this would mean we value dogs more than people. 

 
David Cross covered this

[On death & euthanasia] I think its funny how, that if I want to die with peace and dignity that there's someone far away that can prevent it. Someone's like [strong southern accent] 'Hi, I just wanted to call. This is Jeanette Dunwoody from Valdosta, Georgia. I heard that you're trying to kill yourself and I just wanna say that, well, you can't.' 'What?' 'Yeah, its not right, because all life is precious.' 'No, my life isn't precious, I've been reduced to a #### and piss factory. I hurt always. I'm going to die within a year and I'm in pain constantly.' 'Oh, but um...no. Because of the Bible.' 'Well, I don't believe in the Bible.' 'Well, I do, silly!' [Hangs up]

 
Absolutely in favor of it.  I have had this conversation a few different times with groups of people and each time I was pretty much lambasted for being in favor of such a thing.  Unbelievable. 

 
Yep. My friend's mom is in the hospital, again. Ever since her daughter died of cancer 5 months ago she's been wanting to die. She's 89, tired, sick, angry and spends 24/7 in her home. What kind of life is this? She doesn't qualify for DWD meds so it's frequent visits to the ER. Just let her go already.

 
called my dad on the phone a few days ago.  asked him what he was doing and his response was perfect, 'I'm just sitting here waiting to die'

and that's exactly what he's doing.  He can't do anything anymore but walk at a snail's pace from his bed to his chair, from his chair to the bathroom, back to the chair, then back to bed at night.  day after day after day.  His mind is gone most days but others he seems more alert.  he wants to die and has said so multiple times.  I wish people would let him.

 
For most issues there is a reasonable counterargument, but this isn't one of them. It bumfuzzles me that someone could possibly be against this. 

 
Wow, after almost 15 years of this forum being around, I think we've found a topic that we almost universally agree on :thumbup:  

 
Jayrok said:
Dr. Kevorkian was ahead of his time, IMO.  I wonder if his story would be better received today than it was in 1999.

As Bucky pointed out above, it is morally acceptable to put down a pet that is suffering but not a loved one that clearly no longer has a quality of life or in some type of terminal pain?  

Yes, it should be allowed based on patient/family wishes.  
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California is going to allow medically assisted suicide in June. Hopefully other states will start seeing the error of their ways and allow folks nearing the end of their lives to go out on their own terms.

ETA - Vermont, Washington, Oregon, and Montana allow the same.

 
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Of course it should be legal. It's mind boggling we treat our pets more humanely than we do our loved ones.

 
I was visiting my son and his wife's family this past weekend.  One of the daughters is working at a hospital as part of her nursing internship course.  She was previously assigned a patient who became paralyzed due to a tumor on his spine.  She bathed and cleaned up after him.  The story she told was heart breaking. 

They have him on stool softeners and he can't control any bodily function.  He was so embarrassed to have her (or anyone there to have to clean him up).  She said he cried every time she cleaned him and said he was sorry, etc.. she said, of course, he needn't be sorry and she was glad to help him.  But she felt so sorry for him.  He doesn't have any immediate family left and his insurance supposedly didn't cover some of the treatment and they were trying to figure out his future.  

I can't imagine laying there in an existence like that, knowing there is no cure or future.  

 
I have to wonder how much the elder care lobby has to do with our laws on this topic.  Doing research for a family member recently, visiting several homes and meeting with professionals on different healthcare options, financial strategies, and legal issues, I was floored at the complexity and cost. I don't want to derail this thread and am not an expert in the sense I can offer a definitive opinion, but just note that keeping old, sick people alive is a multi billion dollar industry many times over, and it is largely funded through Medicaid.

Sorry about your grandpa. I'm also going through it with my mom and it is extremely difficult. Much of the difficulty is for obvious reasons, but some of the more difficult aspects of this are things I never expected.

 
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I think it should be allowed in some circumstances but not in a wide open "yes" response.

As respectfully as I can say it, from the original poster's description it didn't sound like he was in pain (a neck brace, but nothing otherwise) or that he was terminally ill with a debilitating disease.  It just sounded like he was old.  And it didn't appear that he was all that unhappy.  It was more the OP's feeling and reaction upon seeing him that was hard to take.  All that's a very slippery slope.  

 
Deepster said:
I think it should be allowed in some circumstances but not in a wide open "yes" response.

As respectfully as I can say it, from the original poster's description it didn't sound like he was in pain (a neck brace, but nothing otherwise) or that he was terminally ill with a debilitating disease.  It just sounded like he was old.  And it didn't appear that he was all that unhappy.  It was more the OP's feeling and reaction upon seeing him that was hard to take.  All that's a very slippery slope.  
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Did you miss the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph? He is miserable, he states it, and I understand why... It isn't a pity play, that isn't my Grandpa, way too much pride, in fact the opposite - the fact that he states it means he must be beyond miserable. He is basically stuck in a wheelchair, he has a catheter in, he can't do anything, he can't see anything, and he can't hear anything. Nothing is going to change this, he is just old. 

 
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Jayrok said:
I was visiting my son and his wife's family this past weekend.  One of the daughters is working at a hospital as part of her nursing internship course.  She was previously assigned a patient who became paralyzed due to a tumor on his spine.  She bathed and cleaned up after him.  The story she told was heart breaking. 

They have him on stool softeners and he can't control any bodily function.  He was so embarrassed to have her (or anyone there to have to clean him up).  She said he cried every time she cleaned him and said he was sorry, etc.. she said, of course, he needn't be sorry and she was glad to help him.  But she felt so sorry for him.  He doesn't have any immediate family left and his insurance supposedly didn't cover some of the treatment and they were trying to figure out his future.  

I can't imagine laying there in an existence like that, knowing there is no cure or future.  
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My father had an inoperable tumor on his spine and was given 2 years to live. He died suddenly a few months later from sepsis. As sad and horrible as it was, I am glad he didn't have to suffer like how you described.

 
AnonymousBob said:
California is going to allow medically assisted suicide in June. Hopefully other states will start seeing the error of their ways and allow folks nearing the end of their lives to go out on their own terms.

ETA - Vermont, Washington, Oregon, and Montana allow the same.
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Seems stupid to only allow it one month

 
McGarnicle said:
t we basically store people away in warehouses to piss and #### themselves for years until they finally wither away and croak. 
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My dad's 90 and I just spent 15 minutes in the bathroom cleaning up the mess from an untimely shart.

Now I'm going to be late going over to his place for lunch.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Did you miss the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph? He is miserable, he states it, and I understand why... It isn't a pity play, that isn't my Grandpa, way too much pride, in fact the opposite - the fact that he states it means he must be beyond miserable. He is basically stuck in a wheelchair, he has a catheter in, he can't do anything, he can't see anything, and he can't hear anything. Nothing is going to change this, he is just old. 
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I guess I just don't agree that being miserable is enough reason to commit suicide.  What's the difference from someone in their 20's who gets paralyzed in a car accident?  Or someone with bad depression issues in their 40's?  When you open it up to things like "being miserable", again, I think that's a very slippery slope deciding who "deserves" to make that choice and who doesn't.  Sorry again to hear he's not doing well though and again, no disrespect meant to you or to him.  I'm just discussing the topic of assisted suicide.

 
Deepster said:
I guess I just don't agree that being miserable is enough reason to commit suicide.  What's the difference from someone in their 20's who gets paralyzed in a car accident?  Or someone with bad depression issues in their 40's?  When you open it up to things like "being miserable", again, I think that's a very slippery slope deciding who "deserves" to make that choice and who doesn't.  Sorry again to hear he's not doing well though and again, no disrespect meant to you or to him.  I'm just discussing the topic of assisted suicide.
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So this guy who is in his late 80's, still has some memory and mental capacity (which is deteriorating rapidly), can't see/hear/use a bathroom/walk/basically do anything, in pain, and extremely depressed should be kept in his wheelchair until he succumbs to old age (which he is in the process of doing)? Why?

 
Deepster said:
I guess I just don't agree that being miserable is enough reason to commit suicide.  What's the difference from someone in their 20's who gets paralyzed in a car accident?  Or someone with bad depression issues in their 40's?  When you open it up to things like "being miserable", again, I think that's a very slippery slope deciding who "deserves" to make that choice and who doesn't.  Sorry again to hear he's not doing well though and again, no disrespect meant to you or to him.  I'm just discussing the topic of assisted suicide.
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Not sure why it has to be limited to the elderly. If youre terminal it should be an option for anyone.

 
My grandmother in law had Alzheimers, the last 1.5 years she basically just lied in a bed, doing nothing.  Couldn't feed herself or anything.  Still not sure my wife or MIL would have allowed here to go "unnaturally".

My cousin had ALS.   I know he wishes he could have ended it.

 
belljr said:
My grandmother in law had Alzheimers, the last 1.5 years she basically just lied in a bed, doing nothing.  Couldn't feed herself or anything.  Still not sure my wife or MIL would have allowed here to go "unnaturally".

My cousin had ALS.   I know he wishes he could have ended it.
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My MIL has Alzheimer's and in her mid 80s.  She gets around pretty good still, physically.  But her mental capacity deteriorates with every passing day.  A tough decision about a nursing home/24 hr care is looming and we are trying to figure out how to proceed.  She does not want to move and believes that she does not need anyone's help.  

 
I would just caution people about the slippery slope that comes along with, as CletiusMaximus pointed out, the financial interests at stake in the whole deal. I would be in the reverse camp of Cletius and not argue it from the religious angle like Lambskin's protagonist did, but argue against the sanction of assisted suicide because I worry about compulsion and haranguing and bullying of the elderly to die when they don't want to. I think living wills are hugely important, as are declarations of pain and agony and calls for an end to suffering. 

It's a tough subject. I don't want some health care worker whispering in my father's ear that it's time for him to go when it isn't. I'm not sure I'm for any state sanction of death.

To invert the dog analogy: Why is capital punishment so frowned upon but most people that are the most ardent about ending the death penalty so gassed on the state sanctioning death medically?  

It's a much, much more complex issue than I can comprehend, and I'm surprised the vote is this lopsided.  I think that suffering is visceral, but we need to take a step back about what should be allowed when it comes to the state and death.  

eta* The euthanasia/dp argument is just an observation. It seems like those are very strange bedfellows. 

 
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Having watched my grandmother suffer for 10 years of dementia and not being able to remember anyone she knew the last 4 years in additional to watching my mother suffer from a slow cancer that eventually took her life, I can't believe that assisted suicide is not legal in most states.  

 
If AS is not allowed by the time I'm at this state, I'm road tripping it to the capitol steps to off myself in protest.

 
I'm for it.  Lots of slippery slopes but someone who is suffering should be allowed to go out with dignity in a pain-free manner.  One of the most poignant moments of this whole election came when that terminally ill man asked the question at the debate.

 
Jayrok said:
My MIL has Alzheimer's and in her mid 80s.  She gets around pretty good still, physically.  But her mental capacity deteriorates with every passing day.  A tough decision about a nursing home/24 hr care is looming and we are trying to figure out how to proceed.  She does not want to move and believes that she does not need anyone's help.  
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She was bad with it for about 4 years the last year-and-a-half were the suck. she was just basically a vegetable the prior two and a half years was much like you mentioned it just rapidly went quick.we had In-Home Care 24 7 and then my mil was her in home care

 
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Yea, my wife has a grandma in that kind of condition - She has 24/7 around the clock care in her home, she has completely lost her mind. She recognizes my wife though. Wife told she went to see her two weeks ago and her grandma was basically winking at her and trying to get the message across that she was being held hostage. She said she kept looking at the aid and then giving these odd looks and winks at my wife. 

It really is so much about the money, healthcare and pharma companies are the products of satan.

 
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NCCommish said:
Well if they have a living will than we could go with that. Barring anything like that I would worry we were on the path to euthanasia and I can't really support that.
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I hear you and I completely understand but I'll tell you what when it's someone you know that's just laying there that can't move, speak, talk, feed themselves it's tough

 
belljr said:
What if they have no mental or physical capacity
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Then they will never know....Slip them a little cocktail....and goodnight nurse..If you have no mental or physical capacity doesn't seem like life would be worth living.

 
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belljr said:
I hear you and I completely understand but I'll tell you what when it's someone you know that's just laying there that can't move, speak, talk, feed themselves it's tough
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I worry everyday this will be my wife. Given her various neurological issues and the medicines she takes I could easily foresee an ugly end with a long twilight of suffering Or even worse for her, if it happened to me. We have talked and we both know we want the other to pull the plug if it gets to that. I had the living will done for just such an issue.

My heart is broken by some of the things I have seen elderly relatives go through. But when we talk about taking someones life we have to be sure. We can't give it back. I just read an article talking about a guy who owned a nursing company telling his people to deliberately overdose patients once they exceeded their allowable time in hospice on their insurance. He didn't want to lose any money because of that. I'm sorry but people are horrible and we run quite the risk if we just go with open season.

 
NCCommish said:
My heart is broken by some of the things I have seen elderly relatives go through. But when we talk about taking someones life we have to be sure. We can't give it back. I just read an article talking about a guy who owned a nursing company telling his people to deliberately overdose patients once they exceeded their allowable time in hospice on their insurance. He didn't want to lose any money because of that. I'm sorry but people are horrible and we run quite the risk if we just go with open season.
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This is my big worry. I am slightly pro-choice, anti-capital punishment, and really hesitant about assisted suicide for the very reason this anecdote exists. I don't think any of the aforementioned topics are easy, and don't pretend to have answers, but killing people for reasons like this strikes me as inhumane, and very easily done.  

 
I'm for assisted suicide in most of the cases mentioned here. I would like to see it legalized.  I think the reason it isn't is because of all the gray areas. The 30 year old with cancer that didn't want to do chemo and is now saying he's in a lot of pain. Should he be eligible?  And at what point?  How about the old man who isn't necessarily in a lot of pain, but he has Alzheimers and doesn't recognize his family? And is costing them a fortune to keep him in a home. His insurance company may not like paying out on his policy when he may well have lived another 15-20 years.

They'd really have to get specific if they legalized it. There would be a lot of manipulation.

 
rockaction said:
This is my big worry. I am slightly pro-choice, anti-capital punishment, and really hesitant about assisted suicide for the very reason this anecdote exists. I don't think any of the aforementioned topics are easy, and don't pretend to have answers, but killing people for reasons like this strikes me as inhumane, and very easily done.  
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And we just don't know. What if that person we think is just laying there is actually reliving all the best times of their life? Birthdays, weddings, that cute girl finally saying yes? The mind is an incredible thing. And without any guidance from that individual we just don't have the right to say that sucks let's call it. Only you can draw the curtain on your time on the stage of your life.

I wouldn't want to make that call and I do support a pretty broad assisted suicide right.

 
NCCommish said:
I worry everyday this will be my wife. Given her various neurological issues and the medicines she takes I could easily foresee an ugly end with a long twilight of suffering Or even worse for her, if it happened to me. We have talked and we both know we want the other to pull the plug if it gets to that. I had the living will done for just such an issue.

My heart is broken by some of the things I have seen elderly relatives go through. But when we talk about taking someones life we have to be sure. We can't give it back. I just read an article talking about a guy who owned a nursing company telling his people to deliberately overdose patients once they exceeded their allowable time in hospice on their insurance. He didn't want to lose any money because of that. I'm sorry but people are horrible and we run quite the risk if we just go with open season.
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Oh I totally understand the dirt bags issue with something like this.

Just discussing. The worst part was there was no plug to pull.

When she reached that point it was just long enough for everyone to say goodbye :(

 
belljr said:
Oh I totally understand the dirt bags issue with something like this.

Just discussing. The worst part was there was no plug to pull.

When she reached that point it was just long enough for everyone to say goodbye :(
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Sure that's why expanding living wills to cover more would be a good thing. Let me give the guidelines of what I don't want to continue to live with. Allow me to do it when i still have the capacity to do so.

 
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