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I LOVE Elizabeth Warren: All aboard - WOO WOO!!! (3 Viewers)

Because the gain is ephemeral and exists only on paper.
Say you own a biotech stock at $6 on Jan1 and $9 on Dec 31. You pay tax on a 50% gain that you never took.
The next month the company pulls a drug due to a failed trial and the stock returns to $6 and stays around there. 
Why were you taxed? You never derived any benefit from it temporarily being at $9.

 
Because the gain is ephemeral and exists only on paper.
Say you own a biotech stock at $6 on Jan1 and $9 on Dec 31. You pay tax on a 50% gain that you never took.
The next month the company pulls a drug due to a failed trial and the stock returns to $6 and stays around there. 
Why were you taxed? You never derived any benefit from it temporarily being at $9.
You had the opportunity to sell it when it was at $9.  That's a benefit.

 
Well, another way of looking at the same $6 -> $9 -> $6 scenario - is that you are now carrying a $3 loss in the new year - which would reduce your tax liability.

I am not a fan - but its not quite as egregious as many will claim.

ETA - really the only thing this does to the shareholder is bring the taxes due forward - and that is a small penalty to pay.  But, its not an unruly amount - relative to the tax bill that would be due upon sale.  My preference is to tax all capital gains as ordinary income (but not mark-to-market).

 
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I will give you a choice.  You can either have a million dollars of stock or fifty cents of stock.  Which one would you take?  Why?
I would take the million assuming there were no associated conditions that might impact the choice. Give me the million and I understand taxing me. Taxing me because you offered it to me and I didn't take it does not compute for me at all.
eta- At least if I took the million, I'd have a source to pay the tax. Without it, I'm in a hole.

Well, another way of looking at the same $6 -> $9 -> $6 scenario - is that you are now carrying a $3 loss in the new year - which would reduce your tax liability.

I am not a fan - but its not quite as egregious as many will claim.
It would only reduce this new yearly tax liability. My basis for when I sell the stock would be my purchase price and offset by any losses I took by actually selling something. Not this paper loss as I understand it. But, it is the whole concept of taxing something without receipt of anything that I do think is egregious.

 
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Well, another way of looking at the same $6 -> $9 -> $6 scenario - is that you are now carrying a $3 loss in the new year - which would reduce your tax liability.

I am not a fan - but its not quite as egregious as many will claim.
Carryover shmarryover. You want this plan to have a chance it would have to be a refund. You own a business. It appreciates 1000% in a year. You end up paying about a 3 million dollars in taxes. The next year a government reg crushes your business and you go under. You dont carryover the 3 million. You get it back. 

A business owner that just lost everything may never make 3 million dollars ever again. 

 
It's supposed to tax wealth.  I understand that's not the way we've normally taxed things in this country.  But what exactly makes it "egregious" compared to other forms of taxation?  That's the part I don't get.  
It will be taxing based on conjecture. 

If somebody earns 100k in salary it is defined. Three different accountants will all say, yep that was 100k in salary we added up all your paycheck stubs. 

A business could be valued at 3 very different amounts depending on who does the evaluating. 

 
It will be taxing based on conjecture. 

If somebody earns 100k in salary it is defined. Three different accountants will all say, yep that was 100k in salary we added up all your paycheck stubs. 

A business could be valued at 3 very different amounts depending on who does the evaluating. 
How is this different from a jurisdiction that requires property taxes based on the value of your home?  I know the feds don’t do this but I haven’t heard the practice described as egregious.

ETA:  Also, calculations of estate taxes are based on valuations too.  And calculation of income for people that are not salaried employees can often involve all sorts of judgment calls.

 
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When you're taxed on income, it is because you received income.
When an estate is taxed, you receive the assets of the estate based on their value at that time (just like you normally pay capital gains tax at time of sale on that current value)
When you pay sales tax, you receive an item
When you pay property taxes you receive public schooling and other services
When you pay a hotel tax, you receive lodging
In this case, you are taxed on the value of something that can change significantly day-to-day  and you receive nothing.

 
I would take the million assuming there were no associated conditions that might impact the choice. Give me the million and I understand taxing me. Taxing me because you offered it to me and I didn't take it does not compute for me at all.
eta- At least if I took the million, I'd have a source to pay the tax. Without it, I'm in a hole.

It would only reduce this new yearly tax liability. My basis for when I sell the stock would be my purchase price and offset by any losses I took by actually selling something. Not this paper loss as I understand it. But, it is the whole concept of taxing something without receipt of anything that I do think is egregious.
This is incorrect.  Your bases would change from year to year.

 
When you're taxed on income, it is because you received income.
When an estate is taxed, you receive the assets of the estate based on their value at that time (just like you normally pay capital gains tax at time of sale on that current value)
When you pay sales tax, you receive an item
When you pay property taxes you receive public schooling and other services
When you pay a hotel tax, you receive lodging
In this case, you are taxed on the value of something that can change significantly day-to-day  and you receive nothing.
I still don’t understand.

 
How is this different from a jurisdiction that requires property taxes based on the value of your home?  I know the feds don’t do this but I haven’t heard the practice described as egregious.

ETA:  Also, calculations of estate taxes are based on valuations too.  And calculation of income for people that are not salaried employees can often involve all sorts of judgment calls.
Estate taxes are a fairly contested issue and many consider them egregious, even though so few people pay them. But if we are going to increase the effect of a tax on wealth, this would be a much better place to do so since it is already in place. I am not really sure what you mean by the bold. If they are hourly, that is pretty easy. If you mean a small business owner, sure the reality of the situation is accountants/owners make judgment calls, but those aren't really supposed to be judgment calls. The pontoon boat that gets expenses for the small business, but it is just a toy for the owner isn't supposed to work that way. I would totally be in favor of clamping down on that kind of abuse, which is pretty common I think. 

The property tax comparison is a solid one. I would argue that properties are a ton easier to value and that cities are almost always on the low side and follow a standard formula for the area. I literally just went through this. Got a letter regarding the valuation increasing. Went up 8.4%. They never visited my home. So I thought how can they just do that? Had a realtor come out because I planned on appealing it and we have been talking about moving for a long time so figured I would kill two birds with one stone. Realtor wanted to list our house for like 27k more than the city evaluation. So much for my appeal! But the city doesn't ALSO charge you tax on your income, so the comparison somewhat falls apart there. But still a good one.  

The whole concept of a wealth tax is just vote pandering. It is a way to definitively say "See, we want to stick it to the rich". In reality if they really wanted to make sure the government collected more taxes from these wealthy people, they would just raise the taxes for those thresholds that are already in place. Why create a whole new ridiculously laborious and inaccurate system? But that doesn't have the effect of a "wealth tax" campaign. It also isn't a sure fire failure constitutionally so they don't have that cover and would be forced to either actually put it in place, or find some other way out of it. 

I don't really care if they want to increase taxes on people that have 50 million macaroons. I just would rather they be smarter about it. I see a wealth tax as something that would be very difficult to put in place, wildly inaccurate, and lead to a bigger IRS that is still ineffective. I also think it is mostly based on a myth. Jeff Bezos has tons of money tied up in stock. But he obviously also spends money, so he has plenty of income or realized gains too, which he is getting taxed on. If it is capital gains taxes and people think his % is too low, then why not just increase the % and change the thresholds? Just seems too easy in comparison.  

If somebody is just hoarding shares of stock that keep going up, they aren't living in a mansion, driving a ferrarri and taking private jets to basketball games. You cant spend that money.

So the wealth tax solves a mythical problem. The person that lives a lavish lifestyle with private yachts and fancy cars and $52,000 bottles of wine, but zero taxes paid.   

 
Navin Johnson said:
How did that work out last time?
You chose the absolute worst candidate in the history of the presidential elections. it's indisputable. You lost to Trump.

'We' - independents decided that your candidate was gawd awful and we voted Trump. Just put someone up there with common sense an isn't an 'its all about me' like Hillary and you win.

 
I don't understand what you don't understand. ;)  Sorry I failed to communicate my position better to you. 
If we need more from the rich, raise the top tax rates.
I assume you mean income tax rates? That's generally less effective than a wealth tax, because wealth >>> salary for the super rich. You'd have to hike income taxes for a relatively large group of people to raise the same amount of revenue you'd get from a small wealth tax on a handful of ultra rich people.

 
Crazy. Had no idea that 16 states allow cities to do this. 
I get the full monte Federal - State - Municipality - personal property - sales tax (even on out of state transactions like buying a car in another state) and Property taxes. 
 

I don’t think any are outrageously high but it’s just a lot of them. 

 
I assume you mean income tax rates? That's generally less effective than a wealth tax, because wealth >>> salary for the super rich. You'd have to hike income taxes for a relatively large group of people to raise the same amount of revenue you'd get from a small wealth tax on a handful of ultra rich people.
Not to mention raising the top tax rate does very little to the wealthiest.  Most of the higher end wealthy do not derive their earnings from ordinary income.  They could make the rates on the top bracket 95% and it wouldn't impact those people much at all, if any.

 
You chose the absolute worst candidate in the history of the presidential elections. it's indisputable. You lost to Trump.

'We' - independents decided that your candidate was gawd awful and we voted Trump. Just put someone up there with common sense an isn't an 'its all about me' like Hillary and you win.
I didn't choose ####.  I voted Bernie in the primary and Stein in the general.  They put up a corporate puppet (Biden, Pete, Liz) my vote remains a third party protest at best.

 
You chose the absolute worst candidate in the history of the presidential elections. it's indisputable. You lost to Trump.

'We' - independents decided that your candidate was gawd awful and we voted Trump. Just put someone up there with common sense an isn't an 'its all about me' like Hillary and you win.
3 years later, how do you feel about your vote for Trump?  

 
When you're taxed on income, it is because you received income.
When an estate is taxed, you receive the assets of the estate based on their value at that time (just like you normally pay capital gains tax at time of sale on that current value)
When you pay sales tax, you receive an item
When you pay property taxes you receive public schooling and other services
When you pay a hotel tax, you receive lodging
In this case, you are taxed on the value of something that can change significantly day-to-day  and you receive nothing.
I don't think you can argue these two things simultaneously in good faith.

You pay property tax on the value of your home. You may not realize any gain, yet you pay more in tax if the value increases. And yes, you receive public schooling (unless you have no kids) and other services.

In the second case, you receive medicare for all which is akin to public schooling in that even if you don't persoanlly use is, having a healthy populace is as important, if not more, than an educated populace.

 
In the second case, you receive medicare for all which is akin to public schooling in that even if you don't personally use is, having a healthy populace is as important, if not more, than an educated populace.
I considered that, but rejected it because everyone will be receiving M4All regardless of whether they are subjected to this tax.

 
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And everyone pays either directly or indirectly. Landlords pay on renters' behalf. I realize  renters have no actual ownership interest, but assume it is a cost in the rent calculation.
 
Wouldn't that be the case with M4All, too?

Also, homeless people also get public schools.

 
No. The 90%+ not subject to this tax would not be be making payments to the remaining who would be subject.. (The latter would pay only on their own behalf. )
1. Anyone working pays into Medicare already.  An additional tax doesn't change that.

2. If we're already going with "roundabout payment" like renters paying for property tax, etc., anyone making any interest or investment income at all on wealth is getting that interest based on all the other people paying interest or bank fees and/or the company's profits or increase in value based on other people transferring money to it, right?  

3. Again, this ignores that homeless people get public schools.

4. Public schools don't get all their revenue from property tax.

I guess it doesn't really matter, I don't really think this tax is necessarily a great idea (much like I think many states' property taxes are out of control) it just seems like stretching to include people in the definition of "paying a tax" in one instance and not being willing to do so in another instance.

 
I'm baffled to see smart posters defending a tax on unrealized capital gains.  This is political suicide.
Her mocking Cooperman for getting choked up was very Trumpian and despicable. If you watched the interview, he wasn't choked up because of having to pay more taxes, it was because of this stupid proposal of hers and his belief it would destroy America. He even stated to just increase taxes but there would be so many disastrous consequences from this if implemented.  On Warren I've gone from "not a fan" to "go away". 

 
Every time CNBC played that Awww, awww thing (which was frequently) I cringed. 
Still need these guys to quiet down, though. Billionaires defending billionaires is bad optics, plus it is giving her a ton of material and air time.
Bloomberg could help her a lot, also, if he enters. Not because he is a billionaire, but because he'll most likely siphon from moderates.

 
I'm baffled to see smart posters defending a tax on unrealized capital gains.  This is political suicide.
2020 Dems are embracing some policies that are dangerously unpopular, but a wealth tax is not one of them. https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/428747-new-poll-americans-overwhelmingly-support-taxing-the-wealth-of

Q: Would you support an annual wealth tax of 2% on assets over $50 million and 3% on wealth over $1 billion?

OVERALL:

74% Yes

26% No

BY PARTY:

Democrat: 86% Yes / 14% No

Independent: 69% Yes / 31% No

Republican: 65% Yes / 35% No

 
Yes, people who don't hang out on FF Political Boards generally don't get worked up about other people being taxed for stuff they'll benefit from. Healthcare is the tougher one, because building on the ACA remains more popular than Medicare For All (55% to 40% even among Ds and D-leaning I's)
(eta- source is Kaiser Foundation)

 
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3 years later, how do you feel about your vote for Trump?  
I didn't vote for Trump but I didn't vote for HRC either.  That said, I am somewhat optimistic that there is a non-zero chance that a major party will nominate a candidate that will be for M4A and and push back against the MIC.  I am pretty certain that wouldn't be the case had 2016 gone the other way.

 
In an interesting twist - Warren is walking back her Medicare for All plan - to be more closely aligned with Buttigieg.

It will be a process where it starts by expanding Medicare, but not requiring everyone to join.

I think she did not appreciate the backlash she would get from the original plan, so now it will be interesting to see how this plays on the campaign trail.  She is still for Medicare for All - just recognizes it won't happen for a few years. 

I think Bernie is now the only pure Medicare for All candidate running.  (Certainly the only major candidate.)

 
I don't think it is really more in line with those calling for public option. She is just using it as a conduit, recognizing M4All will take some time to implement. She still intends to get rid of private insurance in year three, as I read it. 

 
Her mocking Cooperman for getting choked up was very Trumpian and despicable. If you watched the interview, he wasn't choked up because of having to pay more taxes, it was because of this stupid proposal of hers and his belief it would destroy America. He even stated to just increase taxes but there would be so many disastrous consequences from this if implemented.  On Warren I've gone from "not a fan" to "go away". 
The more I listen to her the more I dislike her. 

 
One issue with the wealth tax is that many of the Uber rich may not have the quick liquidity to pay the new tax debt.  As a result, they will have to relatively quickly sell off some assets.  We don’t know what unintended consequences we may unleash (good or bad) from these moves.  

 

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