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Heatman

*** Minnesota Vikings: #2019

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Well, time to kick off a new year for the Vikings. 

Short list of things that need to happen in 2017   2019:

1- Fix the O-Line:

 

Edited by Heatman
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On 2/27/2017 at 3:46 PM, Heatman said:

Well, time to kick off a new Vikings thread. 

Short list of things that need to happpen in 2017:

1- Fix the O-Line:

     Kalil will be back they say, I'm not sure how I feel about that but I would rather see a change. There are some decent, albeit older OTs available in free agancy. Kalil can't be the best option can he?

     As far as the rest of the O-line is there anyone who should definitely stay? Berger maybe?

Thanks for starting a new thread! :thumbup:

The free agent market for offensive linemen is not very good at the tackle position. Today there has been talk about the Vikings being interested in Russell Okung because the Broncos did not pick up his option. Okung has not been playing as well as he did a few years ago and I am not sure who is a better player between him and Kalil. Kalil is younger, more familiar to the Vikings but as fans of the team know, Kalil can be beat a lot in pass protection.

To answer your question, he might be the best free agent tackle available, besides Whitworth of the Bengals who is likely the best tackle, but the Bengals seem like they are making him more of a priority to be re-signed than their guard Kevin Zietler, who is a younger and one of the best linemen avialable this free agency period. So considering the options, yes Kalil might be the best option available to the Vikings. If they were to sign Okung for example, I think that could be a push as far as their relative level of play in 2017, but Kalil being younger makes him in my opinion a better option.

I posted some links to other free agents available in the old thread. Maybe there are some tackles that other people like from that list. I don't think Kalil is better than average for a ackle and based on his recent play, I would say he is below average for a starting tackle, but he is still perhaps the best free agent tackle available. Another option would be Reily Reif who is ok but likely a step down from Kalil as well.

I have heard rumors that Joe Berger is considering retirement. He has been the only offensive lineman doing a good job the last two seasons. I sure hope he will play and play well again this year or the Vikings offensive is in even more trouble. 

They cut Fusco already so returning players who have played in games remaining are Boone, who I think played ok but he wasn't as good as he thinks he is. Boone is also an option to consider at left tackle if they do not sign Kalil or another tackle to take that spot. I am not sure how well Boone would play as a left tackle. Likely worse than he plays as a guard. Boone and Berger would be the only starters from last season who should hopefully be starting again. While it is great that some of the younger players got experience, such as Jerimiah Sirles, Zach Kerin, Nick Easton will be competing for jobs at RT, RG and Center if Berger does retire. Then of course TJ Clemmings who I am afraid will end up starting at tackle again and has played terribly his first two seasons. Clemmings has given up more pressure than any other offensive lineman the Vikings have and I almost want the Vikings to cut him because even if they don't plan on him starting (like the last two seasons) stuff happens and Clemmings finds himself playing again.

There is always a chance Clemmings improves. We have not seen that yet though.

As for the other stuff, Peterson is gone. I suppose it is possible the market is weak enough that the Vikings still end up giving him his best offer and he stays. I tend to think he plays somewhere else though and the Vikings move on. The Vikings need to have a RB who can block and protect the QB. Peterson is not that guy.

I love Mike Zimmer but after 3 seasons he has shown a really hands off approach to the offense. I think that needs to change. He needs to be a coach of the whole team not just the defense. He talks about teaching players situational football and for players to understand the roles and responsibilities of players of other positions. Well apply that to yourself Mike and stop letting other coaches run the offense.

I am not sure if the Vikings are able to scout offensive linemen good enough. Their recent picks of Clemmings and Willie Beavers are examples of why. 

I am also not sure if the Vikings are capable of developing offensive linemen players. See Kalil and Clemmings for examples of why.

Tony Sporano does not inspire confidence in this changing. I would have liked to see a new offensive line coach, but as bad as the Vikings offensive line was, Sporano was retained anyways. That does not indicate good judgement on Zimmers part in his offensive line coaching hires.

While I would like to be wrong about this, I am concerned the offensive line will not improve much if at all and ultimately this could lead to Spielman and Zimmer llosing their jobs.

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The future of the Vikings, part 4: The offensive line

He lists the possible free agent left and right tackles with PFF grades of those players in the article which shows only Whitworth being rated higher than Kalil out of the available options. It is pretty sparse. There are better linemen options at guard than tackle.

I read Nick Mangold was released by he Jets. Not sure how he has been playing recently, but I know at one time he was considered one of the better centers in the league.

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OK so I started this thread on my phone but I can not reply to this thread on my phone? Anyway

So the OT market looks pretty bad both in FA and the draft so our O-line is going to be a work in progress for yet another year. If Berger does retire then barring some miraculous regression (progression) to Kalils rookie year our offense is going to be struggling again.

Peterson looks to be gone. Both sides express an interest in staying united but there have been zero talks between the two from what I can gather. They have also shown interest in Latavious Murray, to me he's more of a stopgap guy but if the coaching staff has trouble game planning with a true workhorse maybe he is the better option lol.

There is a lot of talent on this team but with an oline in shambles it's going to be wasted yet again. Perhaps they draft a stud "Blocking" TE and keep him in to help? IDK

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The Vikings expressing interest in Murray is a way of saying 'this is how much we are willing to spend on the RB position' so if they do want Peterson back (I am not sure how they feel about this internally but I have read other GMs do not see Peterson as a featured RB anymore) they making clear how much they want to spend on the position.

Murray had very good pass blocking grades last season from what I have read and that is the main thing I think the Vikings offense needs right now is a RB who is a capable blocker to help the offensive line out, as whoever the Vikings do add to the offensive line, it will be a work in progress improving that unit.

The offensive line was very bad last season. Many teams had bad offensive line play last year. A very competitive market for free agent offensive linemen this year, few teams are actually set at this position. The Vikings don't have as much money they can spend as many other teams. I think if they make a free agent lineman a priority, they can sign one good one if they overpay. Thats about it. Some other depth guys perhaps but I don't see them being able to sign two really good line players. Although they need 3 of them for this season, or four of them if Berger retires.

Rhett Ellison didn't play as well last season as he has previously. He had a PCL injury late 2015. It is possible he recovers a bit more with additional time to heal and he plays at a high level again as a blocker. That would help. He did not stand out as a blocker last season the way he did in 2015 for example.

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Ugh no news to me, nowadays is bad news. We lost out on Wagner as he goes from Baltimore to Detroit.  Hopefully we have something in the works with O'Leary or someone else.  I really hope we sign some above average O-lineman by Friday.

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Panthers agreed to terms with LT Matt Kalil, formerly of the Vikings.

Allegedly healthy after missing most of 2016 with a hip injury, the former first-rounder with a once-promising career will attempt to get things turned around while playing next to his brother, Panthers C Ryan Kalil. Considering the lack of talent available both in free agency and the draft, this is a smart, upside signing by the Panthers. Kalil should take over the left tackle spot from Michael Oher, whose career might be over due to concussions. If Oher is able to play, he could move to the right side.

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34 minutes ago, Andy Dufresne said:

Riley Reiff is a decent get.

Just saw that. He's an upgrade at one OT spot. If they can find a good LT the O-line might be decent.

Edited by Heatman

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3 minutes ago, Heatman said:

Would be but I doubt they sign him. They are going to do what they did last year and wait to get guys on the cheap. Problem is there is a reason those guys are cheap.

They got him. 

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Anyone know Reiff's money?

So apparently Vikings had a long term deal with Jeffrey but he decided to take the 1 yr deal with Eagles instead?  How long was our offer??  If that would have happened, I would have assumed we were going to trade a player like Diggs or even Waynes for O-line help?  Puzzled........

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While RIley Reif isn't great he is a lot better than what the Vikings have had.

It may be easier to get a decent guard from the draft as well. Most of the good tackles will be gone before the Vikings pick.

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So after day one a slight upgrade at one Tackle spot.  Missed out on Okung, that hurt.

They apparently went after Jeffrey which, OK I get it but they have way more pressing needs than a stud deep threat WR.

Bringing in Lacy... OK but I've never been impressed with him. I would much rather keep AP or go after Latavius.

Also gave Theilen a 2nd round tender, need to keep him imo. With Diggs and Patterson the WRs are decent, not great, but have a ton of potential to improve. Especially if Treadwell can get it together.

Nada on defense, plan to replace Greenway via draft?

 

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The good news is I don't think this team needs a blue chip OL to be a contender. I think they could get by with mediocre. JMHO, anything above non-existent OL they may have been 11-5 last season. 

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The Giants signed Rhett Ellison, so David Morgan gets the blocking TE job by default. Zach Line is a UFA who I am not very interested in having back. He made like two maybe three good blocks out of a lot of opportunities. Ellison, even recovering from his PCL was still a better blocker than Line imo.

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Report: OT Mike Remmers to Visit Vikings on Friday

According to this the Vikings see RIley Reiff as their starting left tackle. According to PFF Reiff played better as a left tackle than he did on the right side, which was somewhat surprising to me. I don't think Reiff can handle good speed rush, but most offensive linemen can't. 

Mike Remmers will be 28 at the start of the 2017 season so not as old as I was thinking. Kudos to the FBG who called this like a month ago if it happens.

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2 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

Report: OT Mike Remmers to Visit Vikings on Friday

According to this the Vikings see RIley Reiff as their starting left tackle. According to PFF Reiff played better as a left tackle than he did on the right side, which was somewhat surprising to me. I don't think Reiff can handle good speed rush, but most offensive linemen can't. 

Mike Remmers will be 28 at the start of the 2017 season so not as old as I was thinking. Kudos to the FBG who called this like a month ago if it happens.

It happened. Five years, 30M.

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Alshon Jeffery's one-year contract with the Eagles contains $4.5 million in incentives. Reported as a $14 million pact, the deal is really for $9.5 million with the $4.5 million in incentives, which involve anything from playing time to team wins. It is a shockingly poor deal for a player who was considered the best receiver on the market, although it now appears clear NFL teams did not feel the same way. The good news is Jeffery should be motivated to stay in shape and healthy so he can take another run at free agency next spring.

---

And he turned down a multi-year deal with us?  WOW!!  I'd love to know what we offered.  So in the draft we consider C-G type or RB first then second, or second then first?  I hear we like both Sam and Mixon from Okla at RB. 

Someone mentioned we have Patterson, we don't.  He's an UFA and will probably go elsewhere.

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I am a bit surprised the Vikings were trying to sign Jeffrey. That tells me they do not have confidence in Treadwell.

Reiff and Remmers are not great but it still feels nice to have two starting tackles.

I think the depth at RB makes an offensive lineman a priority for the 2nd round pick. The Vikings can find a RB who could contribute in round four or even later than that.

I think the Vikings should go BPA with their first pick. They have two 3rd rounders and two 4th round picks and any of those could be used to address the RB position.

I am concerned about the health of Sharif Floyd and Tom Johnson will be 33 years old this season and Shamar Stephen played too much when he and Floyd were out last season.

This is a great safety class, so it would be nice if the Vikings can find a ball hawk to pair with Harrison Smith. If a good one is there with their 2nd round pick, I am ok with the Vikings going that direction. 

Wherever they are picked I hope the Vikings draft at least two linemen. There are other needs as well.

I heard the Vikings may be interested in Nick Foles as a backup to Bradford, but if a QB the Vikings like is available to them in round 2 or 3 that should be a consideration as well. I would prefer to be developing a QB of the future than an expensive backup you don't want to start.

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It appears as if the Vikings will be stuck with DT Sharrif Floyd

Quote

Last Thursday, General Manager Rick Spielman said that he had just seen Floyd “continuing to rehab,” suggesting Floyd couldn’t yet pass a physical. And, according to a league source familiar with the CBA, if Floyd can’t pass a physical by March 9, the first day of the league year, then the injury guarantee comes into play, locking him in at $6.8 million for 2017.

 

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Well I guess if anything with Floyd, we gain a 3rd round comp pick the following year when he signs as a free agent elsewhere.

Biabreakable...totally agree, with another Safety to help Harrison.  I would think with our 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, assuming we don't pair up some of these to go after one higher pick,  1 RB, 2 O-lineman and 1 Safety or 1 LB/rusher

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The Vikings had a ton of cap space on injured reserve last year. Hoping Floyd is healthy and playing for a new contract this year. That would really help. Worried we get nothing from him again but pay him anyways.

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So at this point the O-Line looks like:

LT - Reiff

LG - Boone

C - Easton

RG - Sirles

RT - Remmers

Assuming Berger retires.

I have to assume they are still working to sign a G. TJ Lang? He would make this look a lot better, especially if Berger decides to play another year.

Even if that happens they would still need to address the line in the draft imo, and continue to do so.

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I am hopeful that Berger will play this year. He is 36 years old though and did mention he was considering retiring. I haven't heard iif or when he will make a decision about that.

I think TJ Lang is going to get a contract that may be out of the Vikings price range after accounting for the money spent on Reiff and Remmers and the Vikings looking to give Rhodes a long term contract as well.

Back up QBs are expensive so aside from having a QB of the future, it would also save money if they went with a rookie back up instead of a veteran.

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Captain Munnerlyn signs with the Panthers.

He has been a good player for the Vikings for the most part. Mackensie Alexander will likely play a lot more this season. Hopefully the Vikings can still sign Newman who played very well last season.

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15 hours ago, Heatman said:

So at this point the O-Line looks like:

LT - Reiff

LG - Boone

C - Easton

RG - Sirles

RT - Remmers

Assuming Berger retires.

I have to assume they are still working to sign a G. TJ Lang? He would make this look a lot better, especially if Berger decides to play another year.

Even if that happens they would still need to address the line in the draft imo, and continue to do so.

I thought Rashod Hill looked very good in that final game of the season. With him as a backup, the line is looking MUCH better going into this season and they can focus on BPA in the draft.

Linebacker and running back are the biggest concerns at this point, IMO. Not sure how I feel about Eddie Lacy but he is probably better than anything they have on the roster currently. One of the Oklahoma guys or McCaffery would be a nice pick up and all should be available in the second round when they pick.

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15 hours ago, FunkyPlutos said:

I thought Rashod Hill looked very good in that final game of the season. With him as a backup, the line is looking MUCH better going into this season and they can focus on BPA in the draft.

Linebacker and running back are the biggest concerns at this point, IMO. Not sure how I feel about Eddie Lacy but he is probably better than anything they have on the roster currently. One of the Oklahoma guys or McCaffery would be a nice pick up and all should be available in the second round when they pick.

McCaffery.  I don't see him lasting past early second.  I've read a few reports saying he'll go as high as 19-20 but most likely late 1st.  I'm not real crazy with him though, as I see him as a great receiving threat and not a work-horse type in the pros. 10 benches only at the Combine??  Eeek

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Well Lang is a Lion so that's out. It would be nice to sign someone at G but I have a feeling it will be a stop gap guy for cheap if it happens.

No contract for Lacy and I'm happy about that. AP is in Seattle and if he leaves without a contract my guess is he will be back.

Patterson is asking to be resigned and is "willing to give a hometown discount" whatever that means to him. Probably 4-5 mil a year lol.

 

As far as the draft I know he's had a bad legal issue with the assault thing but I'd bet he has learned is lesson. Other than that a minor parking violation. Him in the 2nd would be an awesome fit. 3rd would be better of course but does he last that long? I've heard he could go undrafted but I highly doubt that with his talent. Or is it not worth the bad pub that would come with him?

It would be nice to see a guy like Hightower come in to fill in our LBrs. Anyone think they go after Mychael Kendricks when he is released to play next to his brother?

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Anyone have an idea as to why they wouldn't try to resign Andre Smith? He only played 4 games before getting hurt last year but as last season shows they need depth on the O-Line. Especially at Tackle

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The Vikings have committed enough resources in their two tackle signings, that I do not really expect them to sign any other high priced free agents.

Quote

Those two deals take a big chunk out of the amount of money the Vikings can spend this offseason, but Minnesota will still have enough to fill holes at running back, receiver, nickel corner and tight end. According to Overthecap.com, Reiff’s cap hit will be $8.5 million for this season and Remmers’ is $5.1 million, which leaves Minnesota with around $26 million in cap space. LINK

Keep in Mind that Xavier Rhodes is a priority to re-sign this season and you should expect about $10 million per year perhaps more to sign him long term.

I am sure the Vikings will sign a few more free agents and possibly another offensive lineman for depth. I just don't think they can afford the higher priced free agents remaining, who will be looking for deals out of the Vikings price range.

Given the public backlash against Peterson for what he did, it seems very unlikely that Joe Mixon is a serious consideration for the Vikings.

I don't see McCaffrey being available for the Vikings. Great player though and I would love to have him if the coaches like him. 

I am guessing that teams have been luke warm on their offers to Patterson, which is why he would rather play for the Vikings for similar money. He does seem to have some good relationships with other players on the team, such as Adam Theilen. So if the money isn't much more than $4 million per season, I would welcome him back as the Vikings kick returner and see if he can improve further as a receiver in Shurmurs offense, that I do think is a much better fit for Patterson. The Vikings were running WCO at the time they drafted Patterson, before they hired Zimmer and Norm.

In regards to the draft I am not against taking a RB in round 2 if the Vikings consider that to be the best player available. I think the depth of the RBs in this draft class makes other positions a higher priority. As I said before the Vikings have two 3rd round picks and two 4th round picks where I think good RBs will be available. I would rather them draft one or two RB in these rounds than commit their second round pick to a RB.

I think there is a very good chance a good safety will be available with the Vikings second round pick. Or perhaps a defensive lineman they really like falls that far. I would rather have a rookie safety, defensive lineman or offensive lineman in the second round than a RB.

Edited by Biabreakable

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Vikings lost Patterson to Oakland.  So looks like Diggs, Thielen and Treadwell are the only WR's we have going into camp.  I assume we'll sign someone, but pretty much it will be a no body type and or draft someone in the mid-late rounds to challenge for playing time and at least return kicks.

Heard also we are looking at former Bills CB, Robey-Coleman. Gawwwwd I hope we don't offer him a contract.  He's turrrrible.  He's a midget for one and can't cover but besides that he's average at best.  Please pass on him and let Alexander take over that role.

Seems like we got quite a bit weaker since the offseason started.  Okay perhaps we gain a supplemental picks or 2 next year but we have more holes and depth to worry about and next year we are going to be in a deeper pile of decisions to make with Rhodes and Bradford and others.

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The Vikings still have Jarius Wright under contract and there is MoBo as well as some other WR who can try to compete for a spot on the roster.

I don't know anything about the Bills corner, but if Zimmer likes the guy, good enough for me. Does he return kicks?

Without Patterson he kick return job opens up for other players to compete for.

As far as compensation picks, the losses have to be more than the signings. The Vikings have signed two starting tackles. So losses of Munnerlyn, Ellison, Kalil are likely about even. It does not count for cut players, such as Peterson and Fusco.

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We have lost now five thru free agency, TE Rhett Ellison (NYG), WR Charles Johnson (CAR), LT Matt Kalil (CAR), CB Captain Munnerlyn (CAR), and now Cordelle Patterson (OAK) so we should gain picks for next year.

Robey-Coleman does not return kicks.  I know Zimmer likes a certain type of player to play CB for him.  HOPEFULLY Robey-Coleman is NOT that type since he can't cover anyone over 6 ft tall well.

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The comp picks are based off of how big the contracts the guys you lose sign, so you may get a couple but at this point they will likely be late.

Reiff is durable but after watching him the last few years I'm happy we (lions fan) have moved on (I wouldnt be so happy without the signings we made). It was like Jeff Backus never retired. Backus was ok but never Great. Maybe playing with a chip on his shoulder instead of mailing it in because he lost his lt job will be the difference 

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If Reiff is ok, he is MUCH better than what they had last year! It was awful to watch!!

I'm an OU fan and would be VERY happy if they would think about Dede Westbrook in the 3rd round if he is still there. Good returner as well.

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4 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

The comp picks are based off of how big the contracts the guys you lose sign, so you may get a couple but at this point they will likely be late.

Reiff is durable but after watching him the last few years I'm happy we (lions fan) have moved on (I wouldnt be so happy without the signings we made). It was like Jeff Backus never retired. Backus was ok but never Great. Maybe playing with a chip on his shoulder instead of mailing it in because he lost his lt job will be the difference 

I recall Reiff as a rookie prospect being billed as a capable right tackle but not quick enough to play left tackle. Based off of casual observations of playing the Lions a couple times a year, this was pretty much my impression of him as well.

However now that we have signed Reiff, I have been seeing comparisons of Reiff with the Lions being made to former Vikings tackles Matt Kalil, and for the most part Reiff has played better than Kalil every year they have been in the league. TJ Clemmings was ranked down in the 80's for offensive tackles the last couple seasons. Basically at the bottom of all the guys who played the position.

What I found more surprising about this is that Reiff played much better as a left tackle than at right tackle, where he played last season. He was ranked middle of road (18th, 16th) as a left tackle by PFF for example, but his worst year was last season as a right tackle. In the article above the author points out that Reiff struggles with power rushes more than inside moves. So this is contrary to how Reiff was billed as a rookie prospect. He lacks the power of a traditional right tackle and is actually better suited for the left side. The thing that concerns me about this however, is that Reiff's play seems to be on a downward trend the last two seasons.

Is Reiff's best football already behind him? Or is he just not good on the right side?

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4 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

The comp picks are based off of how big the contracts the guys you lose sign, so you may get a couple but at this point they will likely be late.

Reiff is durable but after watching him the last few years I'm happy we (lions fan) have moved on (I wouldnt be so happy without the signings we made). It was like Jeff Backus never retired. Backus was ok but never Great. Maybe playing with a chip on his shoulder instead of mailing it in because he lost his lt job will be the difference 

If they sign Lacy, which I think they will, they won't get any picks

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Happy that Lacy sign in Seattle.  I don't believe we need a running back but I am pretty positive Spielman believes otherwise.  I am just hoping he doesn't waste too much money and draft picks on a low priority position.  

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31 minutes ago, Donnybrook said:

Happy that Lacy sign in Seattle.  I don't believe we need a running back but I am pretty positive Spielman believes otherwise.  I am just hoping he doesn't waste too much money and draft picks on a low priority position.  

You have faith in McKinnon? 

Honest question. I hold the opinion that if MIN beef up their OL and got a great RB they'd be a force

Edited by Dr. Brew

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Just now, Dr. Brew said:

You have faith in McKinnon? 

I have faith that good run blocking can make a star out of any ordinary running back.  I hope they concentrate their draft picks fixing the line.  

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6 minutes ago, Donnybrook said:

I have faith that good run blocking can make a star out of any ordinary running back.  I hope they concentrate their draft picks fixing the line.  

I wouldn't necessarily call McKinnon ordinary. I would say he is slightly below average. If you put him behind Dallas' OL I don't think he's a "star"

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think MIN wins the superbowl with McKinnon at RB. I think they need someone a little more explosive back there. Yes, Lacy wouldn't be much better. If you gave me the choice of Lacy or McKinnon I'd think long about it. If I were a fan I would hope MIN would go for a RB in the draft in that case and split McKinnon with a rookie.

However I am curious if AP goes back to MIN

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3 hours ago, Biabreakable said:

I recall Reiff as a rookie prospect being billed as a capable right tackle but not quick enough to play left tackle. Based off of casual observations of playing the Lions a couple times a year, this was pretty much my impression of him as well.

However now that we have signed Reiff, I have been seeing comparisons of Reiff with the Lions being made to former Vikings tackles Matt Kalil, and for the most part Reiff has played better than Kalil every year they have been in the league. TJ Clemmings was ranked down in the 80's for offensive tackles the last couple seasons. Basically at the bottom of all the guys who played the position.

What I found more surprising about this is that Reiff played much better as a left tackle than at right tackle, where he played last season. He was ranked middle of road (18th, 16th) as a left tackle by PFF for example, but his worst year was last season as a right tackle. In the article above the author points out that Reiff struggles with power rushes more than inside moves. So this is contrary to how Reiff was billed as a rookie prospect. He lacks the power of a traditional right tackle and is actually better suited for the left side. The thing that concerns me about this however, is that Reiff's play seems to be on a downward trend the last two seasons.

Is Reiff's best football already behind him? Or is he just not good on the right side?

I think he was pouting because he lost his LT spot in his contract year, and that was reflected in his play. He never said anything publicly but that's my theory. He wanted to test FA as a left tackle as soon as he had a chance, so maybe he just couldn't adjust and wants to bet on himself. 

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