Biabreakable
Footballguy
Well I figured it was worth talking about for when the Vikings inevitably pass on offensive lineman in the first round again.No. There's no player at all the Vikings should consider over OL.
Well I figured it was worth talking about for when the Vikings inevitably pass on offensive lineman in the first round again.No. There's no player at all the Vikings should consider over OL.
I get it, but I will be spitting nails if it happens.Well I figured it was worth talking about for when the Vikings inevitably pass on offensive lineman in the first round again.
I am actually starting to think that there is some quality players at offensive line in the draft that could maybe even should fall to the 2nd and 3rd round.I get it, but I will be spitting nails if it happens.
You're just tweaking me, right? After last draft, where the Vikes went in with a cocksure plan and came away a day late and dollar short to their only team need, I'll pass. As far as I'm concerned this team needs 1. OL, 2. OL, 3. OL. That's based somewhat on their lousy scouting at the position, and need to come away with at least 1.I am actually starting to think that there is some quality players at offensive line in the draft that could maybe even should fall to the 2nd and 3rd round.
Not at all.You're just tweaking me, right? After last draft, where the Vikes went in with a cocksure plan and came away a day late and dollar short to their only team need, I'll pass. As far as I'm concerned this team needs 1. OL, 2. OL, 3. OL. That's based somewhat on their lousy scouting at the position, and need to come away with at least 1.
As a total hypothetical... If Nick Bosa made it to the Vikings' pick, you know where all the other teams just forgot he was in the draft, would you take an average offensive lineman or the best player in the draft?No. There's no player at all the Vikings should consider over OL.
I'm not sure how to respond to those facts. Are the facts I must assume a guy turns into a stud and the OL is actually average? I just feel like the Vikes have gone down that very rabbit hole you describe year after year after year. Simply put, there is no guy we've taken in the first round of any recent draft that was more important in 2018 than a decent OL would have been. It's just a catastrophic problem on this team, no matter how talented they are elsewhere..As a total hypothetical... If Nick Bosa made it to the Vikings' pick, you know where all the other teams just forgot he was in the draft, would you take an average offensive lineman or the best player in the draft?
Isn't that essentially what happened in the 2018 draft? What you described doesn't only impact the 1st. It affects the talent available in subsequent rounds also. Seems like the rest of the NFL recognizes the value of OL. I'm actually not too concerned that my fears play out. I see the possibility that Wilf's tolerate paying Cousins $84M with a joke of an OL as 0%.encaitar said:You can't go in just saying... "We're gonna draft OL and nothing else."
What if there's a run on OL before Minnesota's pick. Let's say there are 8 OL taken before the 18th pick. Do you really want them to take the 9th best OL in the draft over the best LB or second best DT? I know I wouldn't, despite how badly we need to improve there. There are a few real difference maker O linemen in the draft, but there are 15-25 guys who are separated by degrees only. Those guys are always crap shoots on whether they'll work out or not and I'd rather use the 1st on a sure fire thing than a dice roll.
I would say that last year doesn't quite fit the hypothetical here. We're discussing taking average o-line talent over good talent elsewhere.Isn't that essentially what happened in the 2018 draft? What you described doesn't only impact the 1st. It affects the talent available in subsequent rounds also. Seems like the rest of the NFL recognizes the value of OL. I'm actually not too concerned that my fears play out. I see the possibility that Wilf's tolerate paying Cousins $84M with a joke of an OL as 0%.
I get it, and what you originally asked was a decent hypothetical (no-brainer other position available) and then Encaiter asked a different question (what if there is a run at the position). For my money, I very simply look at whether the team is improved in any significant way. If we can't get a singular yard running the ball, and our QB is pressured more than any other QB, we won't be a contender, point blank. That's whether or not we draft the next Lawrence Taylor. That's not to say there isn't a longer term benefit, but it's more of a rebuild move than what I and most fans expect.I would say that last year doesn't quite fit the hypothetical here. We're discussing taking average o-line talent over good talent elsewhere.
Last year, the Vikings simply bypassed good talent. They really should have taken one of Hernandez, Braden Smith, or James Daniels.
Although Hughes was looking like the real deal.
Why would Hernandez have been a bad fit for DeFlippos WCO?One other thing on the 2018 draft... I was listening to KFAN and think it was Leber mentioning that the post-draft talk last year was that Will Hernandez was not the right type of OL for the JDF offense, yet by week 10 Zimmer had decided he wants a more road-grading offense that is committed to the run - something that was a strength of Hernandez. Leber was frustrated, and I am frustrated, that the decisions being made are based on short-sighted factors/considerations, and the team just sort of winds up having not improved the OL.
ETA: Could have been Bercich
Well, it was actually from Paul Allen on with Wobby... had to go and find it. Whether you believe it or not, Paul claimed he and others were told behind the scenes that Will Hernandez was deemed not to be a good fit.Why would Hernandez have been a bad fit for DeFlippos WCO?
Pat Shurmur runs the same offense with the Giants and they did not think he was a bad fit for it.
I am not buying that as a reason why they selected Hughes over him.
Yeah I do not have any doubt that Paul Allen said this and perhaps this is something someone close to the team told him.Well, it was actually from Paul Allen on with Wobby... had to go and find it. Whether you believe it or not, Paul claimed he and others were told behind the scenes that Will Hernandez was deemed not to be a good fit.
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/139-paul-allen-kfan-fm-1003-26980875/episodes/ [beginning at 35:55 of the podcast]
Yeah, I think the reality is, and I've heard others go into detail on it, Spielman/Zimmer just don't put much value on OL. Unsurprising this team would wind up in the current state, given that.Yeah I do not have any doubt that Paul Allen said this and perhaps this is something someone close to the team told him.
That does not mean that Paul Allen isn't a PR shill for the Vikings who will be given excuses like this to tell fans of the team, whether those excuses are accurate or not. Maybe it is accurate, I would just need to hear a reason why Hernandez didn't fit the Vikings.
The Vikings obviously had some reason they did not think Hernandez was a better player for the team than Mike Hughes. I think most of it is that Mike Hughes is very good and at a position of higher priority to the Vikings than Hernandez was.
Spielman did say that he was surprised with the run at offensive line in the 2nd round (he should not have been in my opinion) 4 offensive linemen at the top of the 2nd round, that were very close to Vikings first round pick at 30.
Pick 33 Austin Corbett
Pick 34 Will Hernandez
Pick 37 Braden SMith
Pick 39 James Daniels (who I was most interested in)
Then
Pick 50 Connor Williams
With pick 62 the Vikings were able to get Brian O'Neil in the 2nd round after that run of linemen players.
If the Vikings wanted any of those 4 linemen they needed to take those players at pick 30 over Mike Hughes, and I am not really even buying Spielmans comments about being surprised by the run on then at the beginning of the 2nd round. I am just a fan and that outcome seemed pretty obvious to me and other people.
Following the draft I heard Speilman and Mike ZImmer basically say that they do not value offensive linemen that highly compared to a player like Mike Hughes.Yeah, I think the reality is, and I've heard others go into detail on it, Spielman/Zimmer just don't put much value on OL. Unsurprising this team would wind up in the current state, given that.
Right, they clearly have the aptitude to analyze deeply their CB needs. I just wish they could do that re: the OL. They can't have realistically thought O'Neil solved OL for them, yet they anguish over depth behind a nickel corner, on what will be a top 10 defense regardless.Following the draft I heard Speilman and Mike ZImmer basically say that they do not value offensive linemen that highly compared to a player like Mike Hughes.
The Vikings might not keep Trey Waynes after this season. I think Waynes has continued to improve and that Mackenzie Alexander improved last season as well, but ZImmer wasn't confident in Alexander getting better before last year. Holton Hill just added to the Vikings quality of players at the position.
The Vikings have so many good corners right now that it wouldn't surprise me if they traded Waynes. He is on a 1 year contract due to the Vikings picking up the 5th year option. Only 26 years old, I think the Vikings could possibly get 1st round type value for him if they did trade him. Maybe only 2nd round value due to only 1 year on the contract.
Going into the draft they may have considered corner to be a greater need than how it looks right now. If they were not counting on Alexander to be able to start (they were not) or keeping Waynes long term.
I'm not going to put it on Zimmer. If he could roster 10 CBs, I'm sure he would. That's how defensive minded coaches think. Given that he, himself, had to backpedal after calling our OL "soft" 3 years ago for fear of them curling into full boar fetal position, he should know better. He should be sick of the wasted opportunities, but old dog/new tricks. Zimmer's always going to campaign for new shiny defenders, but it's Spielman's responsibility to make the calls that need to be made.Near the end of the season Zimmer was saying he didn't have enough corners (healthy).
The nickle does play about 70% of the plays, so an important starter, but yes I get your point that it was not a position of as great a need as offensive line.
They may have gotten lucky O'Neil lasted that long.
It is possible that Spielman feels burned by using such a high pick on Matt Kalil and has been gunshy ever since.
I like him and Cody Ford who Funky Plutos mentioned.Dalton Risner is the guy I'm hoping they pick in the first. Can play all up and down the line. Will be a ten year starter for someone.
Currently Andrew Janacko is the only offensive line coach listed on the Vikings main site as Co-offensive line coach.Rick Dennison preferred to stay on as the Jets‘ offensive line coach under new head coach Adam Gase, but New York instead hired Frank Pollack to guide their front five. However, both the Vikings and Packers remain “strong possibilities” for Dennison, per Marvez (Twitter link). Dennison had been expected to immediately follow Gary Kubiak — who was recently hired as a Vikings’ offensive advisor — to Minnesota, but that union hasn’t yet happened. Green Bay, meanwhile, has already hired Adam Stenavich as its offensive line coach, so Dennison would come aboard in a different position. Link
This makes me nervous, after seeing the disastrous results of the Remmers move.
Free agency presents all types of options. The Vikings could think about Bucs tackle Donovan Smith if Reiff slides inside. New England’s starting left tackle Trent Brown is also a free agent. Washington’s Ty Nsekhe is an under-the-radar swing tackle who may have the capability to start full time.
— The guard market isn’t deep. Indy’s Mark Glowinski already signed a three-year deal to stay with the Colts and Los Angeles’s Roger Safford, the top free agent, has expressed interest in staying with the Rams. That leaves Pittsburgh’s 33-year-old Ramon Foster and Tennessee’s Quinton Spain as the top names on the market. Mike Pearson of San Francisco and Jacksonville’s AJ Cann could also get consideration.
— Another potential fix would be to move Elflein to guard, where he shined as a junior at Ohio State. Denver’s free agent center Matt Paradis is one of the top players at the position. It might be a more savvy play to sign a top center and slide Elflein over than going all-in on a veteran, less talented guard.
It bothers me that Cousins buys into the criticism. It has gotten to him. Now it is a monkey on his back.Vikings Kirk Cousins ready to "make amends" for 2018.
Got this from Faust in the Cousins thread.
It will be interesting to see how Cousins and the offense perform in year two. A lot of that will depend on what happens with the offensive line of course. The question is can they coach him on how to handle pressure without making terrible decisions? He's been in the league a while now and had to deal with bad O-line play pretty much his whole career. I think improvement would have come a long time ago if it was ever going to happen.
I haven't forgotten this question and am keeping an ear to the ground to hear rumblings of guys that may surprise. One name that keeps coming up is Boston College guard Chris Lindstrom.I like him and Cody Ford who Funky Plutos mentioned.
What other linemen do you think are worth the 18th overall pick?
Since some Vikings writers have been posting mock drafts for the Vikings using fanspeak on the clock draft simulator I figured why not just look at their big boards?I haven't forgotten this question and am keeping an ear to the ground to hear rumblings of guys that may surprise. One name that keeps coming up is Boston College guard Chris Lindstrom.
I'm optimistic with Kubiak being around to provide early OL input. I saw a mock with Little being the pick. I'm trying not to get wrung around draft slot projections given the run we saw last draft. OL is a weakness for a lot of NFL teams, and I expect it to continue to carry a premium with the ungodly deals going to QBs. The rumored moving of Reiff might give OT/G flexibility. If any of these players will upgrade from Compton/Remmers, I'm for it. I'd love to see 2 OL, DT, DE taken in the first 4 picks.Biabreakable said:Since some Vikings writers have been posting mock drafts for the Vikings using fanspeak on the clock draft simulator I figured why not just look at their big boards?
According to their big board here is where the offensive linemen stack up against the other positions:
7.OT Jonah Williams Alabama
10.OT Jawaan Taylor Florida
23.OT Greg Little Ole Miss
24.G Cody Ford Oklahoma
34.OT Andre Dillard Washington State
45.G Chris Lindstrom Boston College
51.C Erik McCoy Texas A&M
52.OT Yodny Cajuste West Virginia
67.G Michael Jordan Ohio State
I don't see RIsner listed anywhere on this big board. Walter football has Risner ranked as the 6th best tackle. I am getting the sense that he may be underrated in the mocks right now.
Todd McShay seems to think the top 3 offensive linemen (in his view) will be drafted before the Vikings pick at 18 which is why he selects another position. Greg Little was still available yet McShay doesn't think he is worth the pick.
According to the big board only 2 linemen were ranked higher than 18.
Yeah as Andy points out these big boards are not very good right now.I'm optimistic with Kubiak being around to provide early OL input. I saw a mock with Little being the pick. I'm trying not to get wrung around draft slot projections given the run we saw last draft. OL is a weakness for a lot of NFL teams, and I expect it to continue to carry a premium with the ungodly deals going to QBs. The rumored moving of Reiff might give OT/G flexibility. If any of these players will upgrade from Compton/Remmers, I'm for it. I'd love to see 2 OL, DT, DE taken in the first 4 picks.
Richardson may be too expensive to keep. If he goes to another team then under tackle becomes a very big need I think. Jaleel Johnson is ok and maybe Holmes will develop to play there, but those are pretty big unknowns. Personally I don't think Johnson is ready to be a starter or if he ever will be.If Richardson is looking for a long-term contract in the ballpark of the top paid President Trump (around $15 million per season), it’s hard to see the Vikings being able to keep him.
Letting him walk is the lesser of the two worst case scenarios. The other is that the Vikings pay top dollar and Richardson’s production dips.
This is the other reason OL should be considered a premium position in the NFL draft. Few caliber OL hit the open market, and what is there gets grossly overpaid. Look at what Reiff/Remmers got. Draft is the only way to acquire talent at the position.
Absolutely.BigJim® said:This is the other reason OL should be considered a premium position in the NFL draft. Few caliber OL hit the open market, and what is there gets grossly overpaid. Look at what Reiff/Remmers got. Draft is the only way to acquire talent at the position.
I have always liked the way Harris plays. I was surprised to see him grade so highly by PFF though. Maybe Harris is even better than I think.Anthony Harris
What worked:
Seemingly everything. Harris stepped in when Sendejo went down and played very well. He allowed just seven catches on 13 targets for 52 yards and picked off three passes. PFF rated him as the fifth best safety among players with more than 600 snaps, grading his run defense and coverage sixth in the NFL.
Harris is a remarkably smart player whose familiarity with Zimmer’s defense and experience as a backup set him up to be prepared for a starting role.
What didn’t work:
While the Vikings’ defense held Chicago in Week 17 down for a large portion of the game, Harris did not have a great performance. He put together his third lowest overall grade by PFF and his worst tackling grade since his rookie year (2015).
Best case scenario for 2019:
If Harris, a Restricted Free Agent, returns to Minnesota and continues to work well alongside Smith.
Worst case scenario for 2019:
If Harris is given the full-time starting gig in 2019 and proves to be a flash in the pan.
All I know is seemingly every time an opposing QB went in his direction, Harris shut the play down. Other than those missed tackles in the last week, he was awesome last year.The future of the Vikings, part 9: Safeties
I have always liked the way Harris plays. I was surprised to see him grade so highly by PFF though. Maybe Harris is even better than I think.
I tend to disagree with a lot of what PFF says but I hear about it all the time anyways thanks to journalists who have found their content useful writing material.
Yeah they should be fine in the secondary and let Dejo go to save money for Thielen and free agents.All I know is seemingly every time an opposing QB went in his direction, Harris shut the play down. Other than those missed tackles in the last week, he was awesome last year.
Agreed. They're still going to have to restructure a few guys, though.Yeah they should be fine in the secondary and let Dejo go to save money for Thielen and free agents.