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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

I remember at the end of the film Bend It Like Beckham, the two protagonists express their desire to come to the United States where there are successful professional women’s soccer teams they can compete to play for. And I remember thinking to myself at the time, “there are?” 

There indeed were. After the sociopolitical momentum of 1999, things became possible that were not possible before because investors were willing to line up and fund these endeavors, thinking they could at least recoup some of the losses they were sure to endure as they benefited from the goodwill that the '99 team had imbued in the public.

This didn't happen. I think others that are more attuned to the issue of women's professional sports -- like GM -- could do a better job describing the process and failures of those attempts.

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2 minutes ago, rockaction said:

 

Why men and women are not as interested in women's sports is often asked, never answered, rarely attempted honestly, rarely attempted truly honestly in polite company. 

Let me offer the first two ideas that come to the top of my head: 

1. Because sports ultimately is about the best. Physically, the fastest man is much faster than the fastest woman, and stronger, etc. So almost instinctively we know when we watch the best  women compete we are not watching the best people compete. 

2. Because sports is about violence. Consider the fact that before athletes became celebrities, military generals were celebrities. A huge crowd came to watch the first Battle of Bull Run. War was regarded as a form of entertainment. Sports has taken the place of that, which is generally a good thing for society. But part of it is we still crave the violence- which is why NFL football is the king of American sports. And that is a sport for men. 

Does this all sound incredibly sexist? Probably. Again it’s off the top of my head, I didn’t read it anywhere or consider it in depth, so I may be completely full of #### here. 

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Let me offer the first two ideas that come to the top of my head: 

1. Because sports ultimately is about the best. Physically, the fastest man is much faster than the fastest woman, and stronger, etc. So almost instinctively we know when we watch the best  women compete we are not watching the best people compete. 

2. Because sports is about violence. Consider the fact that before athletes became celebrities, military generals were celebrities. A huge crowd came to watch the first Battle of Bull Run. War was regarded as a form of entertainment. Sports has taken the place of that, which is generally a good thing for society. But part of it is we still crave the violence- which is why NFL football is the king of American sports. And that is a sport for men. 

Does this all sound incredibly sexist? Probably. Again it’s off the top of my head, I didn’t read it anywhere or consider it in depth, so I may be completely full of #### here. 

Sports is about violence? Golf, baseball, volleyball, softball, bowling, basketball, lacrosse, tennis, cricket, gymnastics, badminton, diving, swimming, field hockey etc. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. It’s not because of the violence. There are many sports in the world with more fans than football and they don’t involve violence.

Edited by John Blutarsky
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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Let me offer the first two ideas that come to the top of my head: 

1. Because sports ultimately is about the best. Physically, the fastest man is much faster than the fastest woman, and stronger, etc. So almost instinctively we know when we watch the best  women compete we are not watching the best people compete. 

2. Because sports is about violence. Consider the fact that before athletes became celebrities, military generals were celebrities. A huge crowd came to watch the first Battle of Bull Run. War was regarded as a form of entertainment. Sports has taken the place of that, which is generally a good thing for society. But part of it is we still crave the violence- which is why NFL football is the king of American sports. And that is a sport for men. 

Does this all sound incredibly sexist? Probably. Again it’s off the top of my head, I didn’t read it anywhere or consider it in depth, so I may be completely full of #### here. 

I don't think you're too far off.

The first part is the first sticking point in polite company over the past fifty years. Before that, there was no serious discussion about what the "best" was. If there was, it was buried in heaps of sexism and outright derision on the part of men -- men back then often couldn't even conceive of female athleticism for the average woman. The thought was ridiculous to them. It's not to us. But in order to overcome the initial reaction of shock, indignation, and ridicule, women and feminists often resorted to hyperbole. "Anything you can do, I can do better" became a famous second wave (that word again) slogan. It proved so ingrained in pop culture it was brought back in the Mia Hamm commercials post-'99. It's this type of cheerleading that cuts down honest discussions of athletic superiority. 

The second part is also not too far off. Sports is, to a degree, war-like. There are territorial advantages, tactics, diagrams, Xs and Os, etc. It's a bit about violence. It's sublimated, like you said, but it's at heart a little war-like.

Regardless, I seriously never feel like being the heavy or being one to be unpopular. It's not a contrarian streak, nor is it borne from hatred or anything sinister. The sad truth is the women's professional leagues fail. We don't watch women's sports with the same fervor as the men unless it is for country, generally. 

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1 minute ago, John Blutarsky said:

Sports is about violence? Golf, baseball, volleyball, softball, bowling, basketball, lacrosse, tennis, cricket, gymnastics, badminton, diving, swimming, field hockey etc. Soccer is the most popular sport in the world. It’s not because of the violence.

Well I was referring to American sports interests. rockaction’s comments about women’s sports being secondary is, I believe, a reference to American attitudes. I don’t think it applies to all nations. 

Yeah I could make a very good (and quite disturbing) argument that American sports is a celebration of violence. I certainly wouldn’t be the first to do so. 

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1 minute ago, timschochet said:

Well I was referring to American sports interests. rockaction’s comments about women’s sports being secondary is, I believe, a reference to American attitudes. I don’t think it applies to all nations. 

Yeah I could make a very good (and quite disturbing) argument that American sports is a celebration of violence. I certainly wouldn’t be the first to do so. 

I was actually referring to world attitudes about women's team sports save for basketball, which has been around in Europe for quite some time. Generally regarding team sports, we're light years ahead of other countries, sometimes even relative to our men. I mean, we're light years ahead in basketball, soccer, softball/baseball, and we're great at hockey, too. If the world played football, we'd be light years ahead in that.

Pro women's leagues rarely work anywhere. That's not just an American thing. It's a world thing. 

 

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Mens world cup viewership: 3.6 BILLION.
Womens world cup viewership: 764 million

In 2010 The Women’s World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The men’s World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Mens world cup viewership: 3.6 BILLION.
Womens world cup viewership: 764 million

In 2010 The Women’s World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The men’s World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players.

2010? Good to see that you are up on the latest figures. :thumbup:

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2 minutes ago, squistion said:

2010? Good to see that you are up on the latest figures. :thumbup:

Provide the latest numbers. 

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4 minutes ago, squistion said:

2010? Good to see that you are up on the latest figures. :thumbup:

I would be surprised if they weren’t similar. 

Look rockaction is right; men’s sports gets watched more. I’m not saying that’s the way things should be but it is. 

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3 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

What are the latest numbers?

You tell me unless you think figures from 2010 are definitive.

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4 minutes ago, squistion said:

You tell me unless you think figures from 2010 are definitive.

So now you are disputing the 2010 numbers?

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5 minutes ago, squistion said:

You tell me unless you think figures from 2010 are definitive.

A simple no would have sufficed.  You're just here to crap on the numbers posted.  Great work, as always

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Just now, John Blutarsky said:

So now you are disputing the 2010 numbers?

They. Are. Nine. Years. Old.

If I quoted stats from 9 years old defending any position it would be followed with a half dozen posts containing only :lmao:

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Just now, squistion said:

They. Are. Nine. Years. Old.

If I quoted stats from 9 years old defending any position it would be followed with a half dozen posts containing only :lmao:

But it’s not really a controversial argument. What are you doing with this? 

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6 minutes ago, squistion said:

They. Are. Nine. Years. Old.

If I quoted stats from 9 years old defending any position it would be followed with a half dozen posts containing only :lmao:

And if anyone posted the rolling emoji we all know you’d be the first to report that person. :lmao: You’re offended by an emoji :lmao:

Edited by John Blutarsky

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5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

But it’s not really a controversial argument. What are you doing with this? 

Not taking seriously data from a decade ago, when women's sports did not have the profile they do in 2019.

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1 minute ago, John Blutarsky said:

And if anyone posted the rolling emoji we all know you’d be the first to report that person. :lmao:

How would you know? Supposedly you have only been here since March 30.

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1 minute ago, squistion said:

Not taking seriously data from a decade ago, when women's sports did not have the profile they do in 2019.

What's the cut off for the number of years that makes numbers relevant?

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Just now, squistion said:

How would you know? Supposedly you have only been here since March 30.

I have connections. Dude...you actually complained about an emoji :lmao:

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

What's the cut off for the number of years that makes numbers relevant?

Anyone quoting stats that are nearly a decade old is on shaky ground.

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Just now, squistion said:

Anyone quoting stats that are nearly a decade old is on shaky ground.

I'm giving you a chance to define the number of years that you deem relevant.  What is it?

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1 minute ago, John Blutarsky said:

I have connections. Dude...you actually complained about an emoji :lmao:

Yes, I guess you are a eager beaver to have those connections.

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Just now, squistion said:

Anyone quoting stats that are nearly a decade old is on shaky ground.

But the stats are truthful. Do you have other stats?

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Just now, squistion said:

Yes, I guess you are a eager beaver to have those connections.

Nope..just using connections. 

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7 hours ago, rockaction said:

I find it odd, really, that if you don't like Trump, you're generally a fan of Rapinoe, but if you like Trump and aren't a fan of Rapinoe, you're supposed to be cheering for sport and how dare you not like her.

It's a weirdly nice false dichotomy people paint one into a corner on.

I don't care for either, and am not a fan of the USWNT, but am a patriot, so I abide both of them.

Proud of our country's women's soccer team today. Good work. 

 

Lots of people have had their brains poisoned by the internet.  I'm thrilled to see our women win the Women's World Cup, and I'm hoping like hell that our men can win the Gold Cup. No reason for politics to enter into any of this.

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Just now, IvanKaramazov said:

Lots of people have had their brains poisoned by the internet.  I'm thrilled to see our women win the Women's World Cup, and I'm hoping like hell that our men can win the Gold Cup. No reason for politics to enter into any of this.

Exactly.  Today's victory should be enjoyed as a huge sports accomplishment, no more, no less.  :yes: 

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2 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Exactly.  Today's victory should be enjoyed as a huge sports accomplishment, no more, no less.  :yes: 

They have won 4 of 8 World Cups. 

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34 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Mens world cup viewership: 3.6 BILLION.
Womens world cup viewership: 764 million

In 2010 The Women’s World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The men’s World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players.

 

 

Seems odd to use worldwide numbers when there are 50 countries with women’s teams that are eligible and 211 countries with men’s teams that are eligible.  

What do the numbers look like just in the US?

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16 minutes ago, squistion said:

How would you know? Supposedly you have only been here since March 30.

It would only take a couple hours to figure out. 

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2 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Seems odd to use worldwide numbers when there are 50 countries with women’s teams that are eligible and 211 countries with men’s teams that are eligible.  

What do the numbers look like just in the US?

That doesn’t change the percentages.

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Just now, John Blutarsky said:

That doesn’t change the percentages.

What doesn’t?

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40 minutes ago, squistion said:

2010? Good to see that you are up on the latest figures. :thumbup:

Link to any numbers significantly different than that?

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28 minutes ago, squistion said:

They. Are. Nine. Years. Old.

If I quoted stats from 9 years old defending any position it would be followed with a half dozen posts containing only :lmao:

Dude.Get.A.Grip.

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15 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

Nope..just using connections. 

Great connections , some of the best connections. Great connections 

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4 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Dude.Get.A.Grip.

Indeed, it is not like claiming New Hampshire voter fraud without proof, is it?

Edited by squistion

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25 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

I'm giving you a chance to define the number of years that you deem relevant.  What is it?

:popcorn:

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5 minutes ago, squistion said:

Indeed, it is not like claiming New Hampshire voter fraud without proof, is it?

But I did provide proof.

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

I would be surprised if they weren’t similar. 

Look rockaction is right; men’s sports gets watched more. I’m not saying that’s the way things should be but it is. 

I've put myself enough on the line today to simply say this and have it be apolitical, hopefully: I'd be surprised if the world numbers didn't show a greater disparity than the numbers in the U.S. We do support our international women's soccer. There's no doubt. I watched today and would have watched throughout if I wasn't in Europe where they weren't following with the same fervor.

I was in Spain for the women's match with Spain. There was nary a shirt, a look sideways, a knowing wink, a conversation about the game. That's the way -- I'm only guessing here -- I think the rest of the world sees it, writ large. We often forget just how feminist and democratic we are as a country. Any guided literary or real tour of Europe stands as a stark reminder to those that seek cosmopolitan sisters-in-arms. Asia, The Middle East, and other non-Western countries need not even apply.

I still remember the first World Women's Conference on Rights being in Beijing. It was like, "What?" Hillary was roundly criticized for being a representative from the U.S., which I thought she rightfully defended (a rare occasion of her sentiment being both pragmatic and intellectually sensible and fair) but such was the state of feminism in the world where they held it in a country that still suffered from the one-girl per family policy.

It was crazy, but the rest of the world is generally way behind us when it comes to true and realized human rights for women, not simply abstract positive "rights" that are really functions of an economic system and prejudice rather than real rights. 

That's my two cents. 

Edited by rockaction

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Glad they won.  I did watch the match today.  I watched a little bit of the match against France.  I think that if you want to see the true distance in the two you need to look at attendance and market shares of the professional leagues in our country.  I'd guess that margin is narrowed some during the women's World Cup.  I will watch a MLS game if I have a business interest but otherwise I'm probably not watching soccer at all outside of the World Cup.  However, the MLS has been largely successful.  It's come a long way from all the wishing in the 80's and early 90's that soccer would catch on in this country.  It's not where the major three sports are in levels of interest, but it's certainly light years ahead of where it was maybe 20-25 years ago.

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2 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

It's not where the major three sports are in levels of interest

Totally angry hockey fan wants a word with you here. Ahem. *taps foot*

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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

Totally angry hockey fan wants a word with you here. Ahem. *taps foot*

Sorry man.  The MLS has a foothold and is successful in places like Atlanta that the NHL can't seem to succeed in, so I can't rank them up there with those big three.  Although I am surprised how successful the Preds seem to have been in Nashville. 

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8 minutes ago, Shula-holic said:

Sorry man.  The MLS has a foothold and is successful in places like Atlanta that the NHL can't seem to succeed in, so I can't rank them up there with those big three.  Although I am surprised how successful the Preds seem to have been in Nashville. 

I was really kidding. I agree. The MLS seems to have a better foothold in some of the areas that the NHL can't quite get started in. 

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A women's movement to attend women sports would probably help.  Where is that hashtag?  #nswl #datenight.

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14 hours ago, timschochet said:

This is an interesting question; I’ve spent the last 30 minutes thinking about it. 

First off I agree with you. I don’t think that makes me sexist because it’s not a question of how things should be, it’s a question of how they are. I think we can pretty well state as a fact, for instance, that if the World Cup finals has been between, say, Netherlands and France, almost nobody here would give a damn. As a nation we take note only because it’s the United States. 

But it also occurs to me that this is generally true of nearly all international sporting events. If an American is involved we care. If not we don’t. We are dreadfully insular when it comes to sports, but perhaps all nations are; it’s just that they happen to love soccer and we generally don’t. 

It’s not true on a high school level. At least where I live, girls sports gets as much attention as boys. The competition around here to make club soccer, volleyball, Water polo, softball teams, etc etc, is incredibly fierce. With the sole exception of football (which is on its own level above all else) high school girls sports gets as much media as boys do. But this drops off in college and it’s almost non-existent on a professional team level. 

Why this is true is a much deeper question- not really a political one. 

I agree with everything in this post, but I think the explanation is pretty straight-forward.  People care about girls club and high school sports because parents care about their kids and people like to cheer on their school*.  Nobody (relatively speaking) cares about women's professional sports because the on-the-field product is extremely inferior to what is offered by men's sports. 

Obviously different viewers have different tastes, and if somebody tells me that they prefer the WNBA to the NBA, that's completely fine with me.  But such a person would clearly realize that they're the outlier.

 

* This also explains why people care about women's soccer once every four years.  The US women's team is really good relative to their international counterparts, and it's fun to cheer for your country's team, especially when they're winning.  But 99% of viewers who tuned in for yesterday's final won't watch another women's game until 2023.

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3 hours ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I agree with everything in this post, but I think the explanation is pretty straight-forward.  People care about girls club and high school sports because parents care about their kids and people like to cheer on their school*.  Nobody (relatively speaking) cares about women's professional sports because the on-the-field product is extremely inferior to what is offered by men's sports. 

Obviously different viewers have different tastes, and if somebody tells me that they prefer the WNBA to the NBA, that's completely fine with me.  But such a person would clearly realize that they're the outlier.

This is where you'll part from polite company, no matter how nicely you put it.

You'll wind up in a million discussions about what people "should" want and what they "should" care about. 

Trust me. This is like a time warp for me and 1998. Argy bargy. 

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