Zow
Footballguy
Which specific laws currently being proferred in a legislative body would impact you?
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USA Shootings (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter randall146
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
You appear to be using death tolls as the exact measurement for things in your post. As such, wouldn't it make sense to analyze the increased deaths that would result from adding more guns into everyday situation to see if they offset the number of lives saved due to mass murders?
I'm also not sure where you're going with the constitutional argument. I'm not suggesting it would be unconsiitutional to "rewind and put good people with guns in school situations." I'm pondering whether a collateral consequence such as accidental or negligent/reckless deaths as the result of guns being present and accessible would offset the lives saved.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you can google these gun "assault" weapon bans - I bought a nice semi-auto rifle the other day that these bans would impact. IIRC some of them would take away my son's turkey hunting shotgun because it has an adjustable stock, forearm pistol grip and muzzle brake.
the Church shooting on Sunday, the guy used a shotgun. What if all shooters started using shotguns, would anti-gun people feel good then ?
exact no - but if even one life matters then shy aren't we looking at what is causing all the deaths ? why focus only on what CNN has on the front page?
we have literally tens of millions of more guns than we did in 1990 ......... and violent crimes have went down have they not ? Tens of millions carry guns now, yet there are no more murders and many instances just like the TX Church shooting or civilians with guns stopping crimes. Arming schools have worked. Guns are NOT the problem - the people wanting to harm others is the problem
"I'm pondering whether a collateral consequence such as accidental or negligent/reckless deaths as the result of guns being present and accessible would offset the lives saved. "
are you wanting to apply that to everything or just guns? heavily restrict anything that would result in accidental/negligent/reckless death ? you wouldn't be just focusing on guns simply because of the political agenda would you ?
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
moar gun solve all problems
Stealthycat
Footballguy
nobody has ever said that
ever
but law abiding, good citizens with guns are a GOOD THING. Every week people save their lives with guns, save other peoples lives with guns and stop criminals with guns. Civilians, law enforcement ..... in schools, in churches, in the streets .... GUNS ARE GOOD
msommer
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I have guns
I have more guns now than I ever have
I have guns that are different designs
why hasn't my guns ever been used illegally?
anybody ? anyone ?
I have more guns now than I ever have
I have guns that are different designs
why hasn't my guns ever been used illegally?
anybody ? anyone ?
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
Overwhelming "facebook grandpa" energy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
drugs, gangs and killing ............. that's not unusual and is a very real problem. I'd like to see it focused on more
jm192
Footballguy
I don't know the exact figure, but I thought the news said there were nearly 200 people in that church.
Rather than 197 lives saved--they focus on the 3 lost. It's comical.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
jm192
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
jm192
Footballguy
But I don't live in that fairy tale. I don't believe that we're going to pass a law next week and the shootings will all stop. Bad people will want to do bad things. And rather than seeing the victory in preventing hundreds of deaths--you choose to focus on the "WE DIDN'T STOP 'EM ALL. GUNS FAILED AGAIN!!"
msommer
Footballguy
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Apple Jack
Footballguy
jm192
Footballguy
And there aren't as many guns/mentally ill people in the rest of the world. But we'll keep pretending it's the same as everywhere else and taking guns away from the Church goers will somehow save those 3 people.
msommer
Footballguy
Does the US have a higher ratio of mentally ill people than the rest of the world? I mean it would explain a lot, but is that a fact?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Democrats say fewer guns would mean more people alive - is that the goal (noteworthy) or isn't it ?
I think it is - and good guys with gun kills either kill or force the bad guy to kill themselves or capture the bad guys in almost every situation like this (mass shooting)
good guys with guns wins - if they didn't, we'd have tens of thousands of people being killed every year
Stealthycat
Footballguy
not in a free country the size of the USA with our melting pot of people - no there isn't examples all over the world
if you want what other countries have go to them and enjoy them
I think if you went to a highly regulated gun country and became a citizen you'd be very disappointed. There is a reason most of the world wants to come to the USA - we're the best country period.
These 10,000 wackos that want to hurt others every year and kill .... if we'd get rid of that super small % of people, there would be no issues right ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
good people with guns win again against bad people with guns
https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-burglary
A Florida woman who was eight-months pregnant and came out wielding an AR-15 rifle reportedly saved her husband and pre-teen daughter last week from a pair of violent intruders who'd broken into the family's home — with the gun-toting matriarch fatally striking one of the men, who was later found dead in a nearby ditch.
Jeremy King was at his home in Lithia, 25 miles southeast of Tampa, at 9 p.m. Wednesday night when two armed men, wearing masks and hoods, broke inside.
"As soon as they had got the back door opened, they had a pistol on me and was grabbing my 11-year-old daughter,” King told Bay News 9. “I’m telling them, ‘I have nothing for you,' and they’re like, ‘Give me everything you got.’ It became real violent, real fast.”
AR-15 under fire: 2020 Democrats target so-called 'assault weapons'
King said one of the burglars pistol-whipped him and another kicked him in the head, creating a commotion that attracted the attention of his wife, who walked into the room to see what the noise was — and soon found herself dodging a bullet.
The woman, who was not identified, reportedly retreated and grabbed an AR-15 that was legally inside their house, returning to the room and shooting the intruders, hitting one of them.
“When he came toward the back door in her line of sight, she clipped him,” King said of his wife. “He made it from my back door to roughly 200 feet out in the front ditch before the AR did its thing.”
The man was later found dead in the ditch, according to the news outlet. The other burglar fled when his friend was shot.
“Them guys came in with two normal pistols and my AR stopped it. [My wife] evened the playing field and kept them from killing me," King said, noting he suffered a fractured eye socket, a fractured sinus cavity and a concussion, and needed "20 stitches and three staples in my head."
https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-burglary
A Florida woman who was eight-months pregnant and came out wielding an AR-15 rifle reportedly saved her husband and pre-teen daughter last week from a pair of violent intruders who'd broken into the family's home — with the gun-toting matriarch fatally striking one of the men, who was later found dead in a nearby ditch.
Jeremy King was at his home in Lithia, 25 miles southeast of Tampa, at 9 p.m. Wednesday night when two armed men, wearing masks and hoods, broke inside.
"As soon as they had got the back door opened, they had a pistol on me and was grabbing my 11-year-old daughter,” King told Bay News 9. “I’m telling them, ‘I have nothing for you,' and they’re like, ‘Give me everything you got.’ It became real violent, real fast.”
AR-15 under fire: 2020 Democrats target so-called 'assault weapons'
King said one of the burglars pistol-whipped him and another kicked him in the head, creating a commotion that attracted the attention of his wife, who walked into the room to see what the noise was — and soon found herself dodging a bullet.
The woman, who was not identified, reportedly retreated and grabbed an AR-15 that was legally inside their house, returning to the room and shooting the intruders, hitting one of them.
“When he came toward the back door in her line of sight, she clipped him,” King said of his wife. “He made it from my back door to roughly 200 feet out in the front ditch before the AR did its thing.”
The man was later found dead in the ditch, according to the news outlet. The other burglar fled when his friend was shot.
“Them guys came in with two normal pistols and my AR stopped it. [My wife] evened the playing field and kept them from killing me," King said, noting he suffered a fractured eye socket, a fractured sinus cavity and a concussion, and needed "20 stitches and three staples in my head."
The General
Footballguy
https://patch.com/florida/bloomingdale/2-arrested-lithia-home-invasion-involving-pregnant-woman
Sounds like the husband was a criminal and that is why he needed the AR.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
At 8:44 p.m. on Oct. 30, two men burst through the front door of the home in the 100 block of Old Welcome Road. The sheriff's office believes the home was targeted by the robbers due to criminal activity that was occurring inside.
where does it say husband? what criminal activity was found?
where does it say husband? what criminal activity was found?
The General
Footballguy
You read the article. If I had to guess they were selling drugs and the people who broke in were robbing them.
https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2019/12/17/lithia-man-loses-custody-of-children-following-home-invasion
The state later took away his kids because of the suspected criminal activity that was taking place in the home of the guy with the AR. No mention if they took away the guns.
Seems like a great situation all around.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
if that is a true guess, then police would have found drugs and will make appropriate charges
what we do know, is that the AR15 was legally owned so the lady owning the gun would never have been a felon
"
King, who does have a criminal record for marijuana possession, strongly denies he is involved in any current criminal activity.
“I feel like I've been victimized here and now my children are still being victimized,” he said.
Several custody hearings related to this case are scheduled for next month."
you might very well be right, the courts will decide but he's innocent until proven guilty right ?
The General
Footballguy
That's why I said it looks like in my original post. Criminals robbing criminals. People getting killed. Little kids in the house. Sounds like a wonderful situation.
zoonation
Footballguy
The US is not more “free” than dozens of other countries in the world. You keep making this claim and I have asked you before to explain why you think it is. Which you have yet to do.
msommer
Footballguy
Well, for one thing, free to have guns....
(Yes, I know you are Canadian and also can have guns. The argument still is no less flimsy than most others used by the gun guys)
msommer
Footballguy
zoonation
Footballguy
I’m so glad I live in a society that doesn’t allow people to walk around with a gun. Or a ####### AR15.
msommer
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
that would be a long thread - you'd have to take into account our Constitutional Freedoms and weigh them against and with the countries you think have such great gun laws. You'd also have to weight the total crimes - look at UK. Not many gun deaths, many many knife deaths. The violence wasn't solved by low numbers of guns (shocking huh?? :( )
Stealthycat
Footballguy
people in the USA don't walk around with AR15's and each day, tens of millions walk around with concealed weapons with no issues at all
I think its incredible that people think violence is directly tied to an inanimate object
it isnt
Stealthycat
Footballguy
factoid
36,626,000 is population of Canada 2017
12,708,000 guns owned, 10,626,558 unregistered
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
the most interesting thing .. Canada's rate of 22 percent of households owning firearms
In 2019, about 37 percent of U.S. households had at least one gun in possession.
Why isn't Canada's murder rate higher? while 22% isn't 37% with all the guns Canadian's have access to, there should be way more murders with guns IF guns are the problem
they're not though, are they ?
36,626,000 is population of Canada 2017
12,708,000 guns owned, 10,626,558 unregistered
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
the most interesting thing .. Canada's rate of 22 percent of households owning firearms
In 2019, about 37 percent of U.S. households had at least one gun in possession.
Why isn't Canada's murder rate higher? while 22% isn't 37% with all the guns Canadian's have access to, there should be way more murders with guns IF guns are the problem
they're not though, are they ?
Zow
Footballguy
It's relatively common (and is sometimes referred to as "hitting a lick"). In many cases, a drug dealer's client will be the one robbing the place. The reasoning for this is likely obvious, but if not robbing your or a known drug dealer (especially after a big purchase) makes sense because; 1) compared to some random home, the robber knows there's very likely substantial cash inside; 2) since that cash was unlawfully obtained, a drug dealer is less likely to report the robbery.
In my experience, the above scenario is far more common than the random home invasion/residential burglary.
Zow
Footballguy
Stealthy, I genuinely don't know what you're trying to say here or what you're asking me. Politically, I'm a registered Republican and, legally and philosophically, I generally would argue in favor of individual gun ownership and against overly restrictive gun laws. I am unaware of some of the bans you reference
The point that I was trying to make was in response to your suggestion that schools be heavily armed and trained. My fear of that is that having guns in most classrooms may lead to deaths resulting from negligent, reckless, and accidental conduct. And, if those deaths outweigh the deaths saved by school shootings, then the "expected value" of your proferred solution is in the negative. This isn't politics or law. This is merely statistics and looking at your suggested solution from a cost-benefit perspective.
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The General
Footballguy
parrot
Footballguy
It isn't? How does the gun violence/death rate compare to the pool noodle violence/death rate? or the loaf of bread violence/death rate?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
that's what you/I/we have had for 30 years, unarmed schoolsZow said:
do you like how that went ? I don't
A lot of gun laws trying to be pushed/passed by Democrats focus on accessories that guns can have on them - magazine capacity, muzzle brakes, bump stocks etc etc
the shooter at the church in Texas the other day used a shotgun - what are your thoughts on stopping someone like that ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I'll tell you this, more people are strangled to death, beaten to death and knifed to death than are killed with AR15's every yearparrot said:
did you not know that ?
Zow
Footballguy
1. Of course I don't like it. But I wouldn't like an increase in gun-related deaths in schools due to accident/negligence, either.
2. Okay. I guess I view those proposed laws like I view speed limit laws.
3. I'm glad the Texas church shooter was stopped so early in his mayhem? I'm not entirely certain what you're asking here.
parrot
Footballguy
What does that have to do with the question I asked you or your contention that violence doesn't tie to "inanimate objects"? Upwards of 3/4 of homicides in this country tie to one class of inanimate object. Did you not know that? And I'll give you a hint, it's not pool noodles.
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Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Indeed.Zow said:
Picture a school shooting. The normal hustle and bustle of the school day is fractured when a couple of shots ring out. Screams are heard and kids start running this way and that. Some kids shelter in place as taught and some just run. there is acrid gun smoke in the air and maybe that sets off fire sprinklers. Regardless probably the fire alarms are going off adding to the cacophony and confusion. Teachers reach for their guns while their kids are asking them what to do. There are bangs as desks are flipped over and books dropped, confusing where the gunshots are coming from with all the noise. The teachers go out into the hall to bravely hunt down the shooter, or maybe they train their weapon on their classroom door. There is sudden movement, an opening of the door, or an unknown adult moving in the hallway. The teacher shoots, and misses, because that is what even experienced shooters do in such circumstances more often than not. Good thing too as the person they saw was a parent who had been lawfully admitted to the school for a parent/teacher conference. Sadly though the bullet does not stop upon the miss but travels through the wall into the next classroom, school walls not being designed to stop bullets. It hits little Meaghan who does not die instantly, but messily, bleeding all over the floor and defying her teachers efforts to stem the bleeding by applying pressure. her class mates are terrified and some try to flee, adding to the confusion.
Me, the most force I can advocate for non-professionals in a school setting is nonlethal force, Tasers or bean bag weapons perhaps. I know this, I would not want the responsibility of being the shooter in such a scenario.
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