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RB Royce Freeman, LAR (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Snorkelson
- Start date
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
An early to mid 2nd.Dr. Dan said:
Faust
MVP
Raptors409
Footballguy
I like Freeman in Year 2. He's the same exact player as last year, except now he can be had for pennies for some reason.
God forbid if Lindsay were to get hurt.
God forbid if Lindsay were to get hurt.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I bought and then immediately flipped for Kupp (I was planning it that way)
However, I wish I could have held him. Hes very promising. Went 4th overall in my draft last year and he is worth much less than that these days
Raptors409
Footballguy
Still trying to acquire him in dynasty. God forbid Lindsay get another boo boo.
This guy’s value would quadruple overnight.
This guy’s value would quadruple overnight.
Aznflyer14
Footballguy
Agreed... This guy is one of my sleepers coming up this season. Plus one of recent offseason moves made by Broncos when overhauling their coaching staff is poaching OL coach from Steelers (Munchak). To me, this is clearly underrated and major move to improve their OL. Freeman had exceptional experience running at zone-blocking scheme during his first 3 years in Oregon.
Tanner9919
Footballguy
Lindsay is the real deal. Royce has that look of a guy who never gets there. Lindsay is far superior at hitting the holes, acceleration,etc.
Royce is the COP back, if anything.
I'd rather take a flyer on one of the Steelers' RBs or Rams RBs than to think Freeman becomes the stud that Lindsay is.
Royce is the COP back, if anything.
I'd rather take a flyer on one of the Steelers' RBs or Rams RBs than to think Freeman becomes the stud that Lindsay is.
Lindsay tore a ligament in his wrist at the end of the season. That was his only injury. Freeman had more nicks throughout the year. Plus Lindsay has much more talent than Freeman and it showed all year.
Raptors409
Footballguy
Well, my argument is that it’s more likely for a 190 lb running back to get hurt than a 230 lb running back.Gally said:
I understand that they both had boo boos last year. I guess what I’m saying is the it would not be surprising if Lindsay got hurt again, especially if they’re gonna give him the lion’s share of the carries again.
Broncos will be splitting carries and it’s in the best interest of both backs.
I'm not the biggest Lindsay fan by any stretch, but even I'll admit that a broken wrist is a very fluky injury.
dipandglide
Footballguy
I like Freeman, but I need to know he’s getting 15+ carries before I feel comfortable rolling him out. Lindsey has the safer floor in PPR. This is one of the more interesting fantasy storylines this year.
Warren Sharp recently tweeted that only one RB in the entire league had 15 carries in ten or more games last season.
If you’re waiting to see 15 carries consistently from any player not named Zeke, you will be waiting for quite a while.
dipandglide
Footballguy
Raptors409
Footballguy
Sure. I don’t think anyone would argue against that. Kid looked great on tape.
I’m just saying if I was betting on the 190 lb back or 230 lb to stay healthy, conventional wisdom would say the bigger guy has a better chance of staying healthy.
Not trying to conflate any negatives about Lindsay’s talent. The only thing he’s really missing is size. I’ve seen guys like Steve Slaton, David Wilson, Jahvid Best, and Andre Ellington who could handle the load until they couldn’t.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Agree with this take, everything coming out of the Bronco camp makes it seem like they are committed to an RBBC.
Risk I see in investing in Royce is the same as last year -- Lindsay is too electric to keep off the field.
Freeman has talent and opportunity, but needs to show -- early and often -- consistent production and contribution.
And it may indeed happen this year -- Royce Freeman has the pedigree and opportunity.
But at this point I am still more comfortable betting on Lindsay than Freeman -- if anything, the Royce hype just makes Lindsay's ADP more affordable.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Now let's cherry pick small RBs that showed they could handle the load for multiple seasons as a feature back:
- Brian Westbrook
- Jamaal Charles
- Ahmad Bradshaw
- Chris Johnson
- Ray Rice
- Charlie Garner
- Warrick Dunn
- Darren McFadden
- Doug Martin
- Ryan Matthews
- Jonathan Stewart
- Felix Jones
- Chris Ivory
TheWinz
Footballguy
Each of those guys had issues that I would say their size really didn't have anything to do with it. Slaton (spinal fusion), David Wilson (neck injury), Best (concussions) and Ellington (feet). Most of those were issues beyond anybody's control and wasn't due to size. They were fluky injuries that could and has happened to any NFL player.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
lots of people praying for freeman up in here...
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Folks really liked him as a dynasty prospect before last season. They just can't quit him.
Casting Couch
Footballguy
Definitely NOT. You can’t make that call. Freeman isn’t a knucklehead like michael, and has only been in the league 1 year. He was also very good last year when healthy. I owned Lindsay last year and still do which is why I traded for freeman this off-season. As a Lindsay owner, I am worried. He’s a smaller back and freeman is going to cut into his workload this year, especially in the red zone and at the GL. I can see them swapping series on offense all year. 50/50 split. With Lindsay being in more on obvious passing downs and freeman in more at GL. Thunder and lightning.
I don't think this is true. Freeman looked slow and plodding and very rarely got anything more than what was blocked. He was by far the worse of the two RB's in performance and eye test.rickyg said:
I believe the Broncos would be best suited to use these two in a 65-35 split in Lindsay's favor. In today's game there is too much pounding on anyone to be a 20+ carry a game guy. 15-20 touches a game for Lindsay and 8-12 touches for Freeman seems like a good split to optimize talent and keep them healthy
abbottjamesr
Footballguy
Freeman suffered a high ankle sprain in week 7 last year. In the first 6 games, he had 58/272/3 (4.7 yards/carry) rushing and 4/21/0 receiving. The rushing split between Lindsey and Freeman was almost exactly even (Lindsay had 61 carries at 5.7 yds/carry).
There is new coaching in Denver this year, with plans to go to a more zone blocking scheme from a gap scheme. Supposedly this plays to Freemans strengths more than Lindsay's. My guess is the split is more 50/50 in total touches if both players stay healthy.
I like Lindsay's talent, but I feel like this year is going to be frustrating for Lindsay owners. They are going to see some big flashy plays from him and then see Freeman come in the game and take 10-15 carries, and they are going to yell at the tv "why don't you put in Linday, he's so much better".
There is new coaching in Denver this year, with plans to go to a more zone blocking scheme from a gap scheme. Supposedly this plays to Freemans strengths more than Lindsay's. My guess is the split is more 50/50 in total touches if both players stay healthy.
I like Lindsay's talent, but I feel like this year is going to be frustrating for Lindsay owners. They are going to see some big flashy plays from him and then see Freeman come in the game and take 10-15 carries, and they are going to yell at the tv "why don't you put in Linday, he's so much better".
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah I like the redraft pricetag on Royce more than Lindsay. He's bigger and more talented than Lindsay IMO. I think Linsday ends up looking more like a fluke than anything.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I get the bigger part (and the price tag value) but how do you come to the conclusion on the bolded?
Is it because of draft capital? because this is clearly a case where the NFL got it wrong.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Denver used more man blocking than zone last year?
I've always thought of Denver as ZBS primarily for as long as I can remember. Maybe that changed?
In any case looking at the two players at the NFL level I would expect Lundsay to be better in both schemes than Freeman.
Freeman does come from a primarily zone system at Oregon. I always thought that was at least part of why Dencer thought he would be a good fit for them.
John Elway seemed to envision a power RB role for Freeman when they drafted him, and talk of using him more in short yardage role indicates that as well.
In watching Freeman this seems a bit square peg round hole to me as power isnt really his style. He is more finesse using footwork to get to the edge in colledge.
If Denver ever stopped being zone team I must have missed it and it didnt last long.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
you cant teach speed......Freeman looks like a JAG....Lindsey has special wiggle.....good news in re-draft, you can get both cheap.....
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I disagree that Freeman was JAG. Often when I was watching it seemed like he was making plays out of nothing, with above average vision and decent yards gained after first contact. I am not sold on Lindsey and feel like his ADP is 20 too high, and that Freeman is a better value for their ADP.
Interesting. I saw the exact opposite when I watched these two last year. I thought Freeman left a ton on the field and made next to zero plays and Lindsay was dynamic, faster, and was always a shoestring from breaking it to the endzone. I guess we will get to see soon who is correct.
kittenmittens
Footballguy
You also can't teach a little fast guy to be big enough and have him retain his speed. Chris Thompson looks amazing too for 5 minutes before his tiny, pathetic body crumbles and he's bigger than Lindsay.
When you find a fast player who also has special wiggle, elite size, and pass catching ability, you have a Saquon Barkley type talent on your hands.
I'll be trying to get both in re-draft this year. Booker having a role is still a concern, but I'm guessing Lindsay is either babied or gets hurt again. He's 190 lbs?
Eta im jokingly exaggerating with the phrasing on Thompsons body.
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Raptors409
Footballguy
Eh, I don’t think anyone is praying for him. But he’s a great buy low. It just goes to show you how fickle people are.
Last offseason, he was the latest thing since sliced bread. People were burning 4th-5th round redraft picks on him. This year he’s going in the 8th round in redraft.
You know at the very least he’s getting goal line carries. So he has a role. I like Lindsay but he’s not a bell cow running back. You can certainly feature him.
Others may different but if him and Lindsay both got tackled 200 times. My money is on Freeman to stay healthier. It’s a tough position to play.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It’s not being fickle, there’s a plausible explanation. Last year Freeman was drafted in the 4th round because everyone assumed that Denver drafted him to be their starting back (and they probably did) but then Lindsay came out of nowhere as an UDFA and looked superior. Now this year people are assuming at best Freeman is in a 50/50 timeshare (and more likely he’ll see less than that) - no one will waste a 4th round pick on that.
Raptors409
Footballguy
Sure it is (in my opinion). You either believe in his talent or you don’t.
For people to think he was good enough to be starter one year, then to come in here less than a year later and say he’s JAG tells you a lot:
1.) They don’t trust their own talent scouting.
2.) They are being reactive as opposed to being proactive.
Raptors409
Footballguy
Here’s the big thing for me and why I’m going to respectfully step out of this thread:
Last year, I posted in this thread telling people not to draft this guy so early since he was being overvalued.
I was laughed at and attacked by a mob of people telling me how stupid I was not to realize how monster of a season this guy was going to have. Being told based on preseason highlights how great he would be.
The guy busted and the thread went silent. Nobody apologized or said, “hey you were right”. Now, a year later I’m having the reverse argument.
Draft him or don’t draft him, I don’t care. You guys didn’t listen to me last year and I don’t expect you to listen now.
You are the consensus. This is a think tank. To most, you view this as a binary choice. Last year, he was CAN’T MISS. This year, he is UNDRAFTABLE.
Buy low, sell high. If it’s good enough for real investing, it’s good enough for fantasy football.
Last year, I posted in this thread telling people not to draft this guy so early since he was being overvalued.
I was laughed at and attacked by a mob of people telling me how stupid I was not to realize how monster of a season this guy was going to have. Being told based on preseason highlights how great he would be.
The guy busted and the thread went silent. Nobody apologized or said, “hey you were right”. Now, a year later I’m having the reverse argument.
Draft him or don’t draft him, I don’t care. You guys didn’t listen to me last year and I don’t expect you to listen now.
You are the consensus. This is a think tank. To most, you view this as a binary choice. Last year, he was CAN’T MISS. This year, he is UNDRAFTABLE.
Buy low, sell high. If it’s good enough for real investing, it’s good enough for fantasy football.
TheWinz
Footballguy
You shouldn't take it personally if a mob of group-thinkers disagree with you. It's a forum, and will always happen when you go against the grain. Every poster here has a player or two they see differently than the rest, but many choose not to battle the group-think in the thread. But if you do, have thick skin, stick to your guns, and if the majority disagree, so be it. Player threads suck when everyone agrees. I have been in the Peyton Barber thread claiming he is a decent RB stuck in a bad situation, and I will continue to argue my point. And when he finishes as a RB2 this year, I do not expect a single apology.
As for Freeman, he certainly didn't bust. He was part of a great tandem to begin the season, and both RB's were putting up nice numbers.
abbottjamesr
Footballguy
I was going off of what I had heard on podcasts this summer. I am looking of the data on what the split was in 2018 on Zone vs Man blocking. The talking heads seems to think that Freeman did better in zone vs Lindsay doing better on the man blocking plays. The concensus is that Musgrave will be implementing a system that is heavy on zone blocking which in theory is good for Freeman more so than Lindsay. I found one article on Musgrave's system and it expected implementation for 2019.
https://www.milehighreport.com/2018/7/23/17600686/gif-horse-broncos-bill-musgraves-offense-part-1
I'll keep looking for more info on the 2018 run split. I think both backs have value this season as I expect Denver to run the ball more than most teams. Lindsay showed he has the talent to play at this level and I think both will be productive. At Freemans 8th round ADP, he seems like the best value. Probably a solid flex play most weeks with upside if Lindsay gets hurt or Freeman takes the next step with more zone blocking.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
If you’re looking to be insulting (and it seems you are) the phrase you’re looking for is “echo chamber” - this actually is an internet version of a think tank, a place where a group of people bounce ideas off each other and try to figure something out.
Dont be so high strung, people will challenge you a bit if you make inaccurate statements. Heck people may challenge accurate statements or predictions that end up being accurate. You should cherish that since that’s how we all learn.
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I think it tells you that a guy came out of nowhere to show he was the superior talent to Freeman. I was a Freeman backer going into last year based on where he was drafted and my thinking he didn't have any competition. Low and behold Lindsay came out of nowhere and looked to be the far better RB. The difference in value isn't not trusting my own scouting talent but it is slightly reactive based on added information. Lindsay is the added information. He is the better RB. I do think there needs to be a split to make sure Lindsay stays healthy but that should be somewhere around 65-35 in favor of Lindsay.Raptors409 said:
In order to do well in FF you have to adjust your views based on new information. I think that is what has happened here...........at least for me.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I did a bit of googling and I did find some talk about Denver using more man blocking with Mike McCoy in 2017. McCoy didn't last long before being replaced by Musgrave that season.
While all teams and Musgrave will use a mix of both blocking schemes I am guessing it was more zone than man last year because I think it is a better personnel fit.
I would be curious to hear what that split actually was but I definitely have a feeling that whoever you are listening to is painting this with a broad brush to reach for a conclusion that would be favorable to Freeman.
I think that is a bunch of Mularkey.
The new OC Rich Scangarello is a Kyle Shanahan disciple coming from the 49ers. This is primarily a ZBS with its roots coming from Gibbs and Denver who made the scheme famous. Mike Munchak is a great addition as offensive line coach.
I just do not see the changes being much scheme wise and if they do run more ZBS I think that helps Linday as much if not more than it helps Freeman.
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TIL an injured, partial rookie season is all someone needs to evaluate a player and project his career. If a player doesn't excel in one system while injured, you can write off his career even if said system was not an ideal fit for that player's talents and the new system will be.
/thread
That's not what I said at all. I am not writing off anybody's career. My point was Freeman was hyped and disappointed because Lindsay came out of nowhere to look like the better player. In addition, Freeman didn't look that great. He looked slow (even before the injury) and didn't look to be the RB that was being hyped. I am also not so sure that they will be running a system that is all that different than last year. There seems to be dissenting reports about that.
