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Debate: Why even bother? (1 Viewer)

Ilov80s said:
Also we don't really know if the officer in Maryland saved any lives. The student took his own life. 
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There was also claims the the liberal msm made no comment that this officer may have been a hero the very first morning....yes on CNN and MSNBC but they did add that the student took his own life.

 
The General said:
The president, leader of the Republican Party, spends the majority of his time communicating with the country like a forum troll. He would probably be banned here in a few months :lol:

I think this gives the Dems the upper hand at the moment in this conversation at the moment.
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Please include us independents in with this. I think the reason Trump won't be reelected is because of independents and conservatives (George Will, Krauthammer, Ann Coulter etc) who oppose him 

 
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Underachievers said:
Liberals just need to stop crying about every percieved injustice.  The seemingly constant barrage of protests and cries of racism, homophobia, misogyny etc etc has happened so often that you can no longer be taken seriously about anything.  

Trump has MANY faults but someone in Washington is FINALLY saying and trying to do what half in this country want.   

Sorry kids, but a huge part of this country in not liberal.
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I'm not liberal and can't stand Trump.  I don't agree with a lot of what he's done.  I don't think he knows what he's doing and is just playing to one party.

 
Captain Cranks said:
I think some of you guys are cherry-picking the more classic right vs. left issues like gun control to explain your points.  You're also making this about liberals and conservatives.  My OP was about Trump supporters who seemingly disregard facts versus the rest of us.  So rather than make this about the standard right vs. left, what should we do about guns debate, I think it's more appropriate to discuss how one should attack the "there's no evidence of collusion, the FBI is part of the deep state, and Clinton needs to rot in jail" debate.   
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I apologize.  I did not mean to get matters off the desired track.  How I deal with the specific issues you have just raised is to begin by providing acknowledgment to the other side.   something like this:  I agree that I have not yet see conclusive proof of collusion, but to say that there is no evidence, no, I cannot go there.  Certainly some of the information thus far brought to light must  fire your intellectual curiosity, I mean you seem like a smart fellow, not the type to accept everything you are told by someone who has been a salesman all his life.  What areas of the story cause you some concern, even if only mild concern?

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I apologize.  I did not mean to get matters off the desired track.  How I deal with the specific issues you have just raised is to begin by providing acknowledgment to the other side.   something like this:  I agree that I have not yet see conclusive proof of collusion, but to say that there is no evidence, no, I cannot go there.  Certainly some of the information thus far brought to light must  fire your intellectual curiosity, I mean you seem like a smart fellow, not the type to accept everything you are told by someone who has been a salesman all his life.  What areas of the story cause you some concern, even if only mild concern?
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No need to apologize.  I think your overriding response is valid and still pertains to the specific debates I was referring to in my head.  

 
Captain Cranks said:
No need to apologize.  I think your overriding response is valid and still pertains to the specific debates I was referring to in my head.  
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I appreciate that, but there was a need to apologize.  I do not want to be perceived as deliberately derailing your desired debate.  I made a mistake, inadvertent, but it was mine.  That requires acknowledgment.  That keeps communication open, and it turns out apologizing does not carry any cost.  Lately in our social media driven society apologies seem to be in far too short supply.  Some seem to think providing one is to surrender their very worth.  I think this is because we now try to extract them rather than wait for them.  Me, I am only too happy to provide them when appropriate.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I apologize.  I did not mean to get matters off the desired track.  How I deal with the specific issues you have just raised is to begin by providing acknowledgment to the other side.   something like this:  I agree that I have not yet see conclusive proof of collusion, but to say that there is no evidence, no, I cannot go there.  Certainly some of the information thus far brought to light must  fire your intellectual curiosity, I mean you seem like a smart fellow, not the type to accept everything you are told by someone who has been a salesman all his life.  What areas of the story cause you some concern, even if only mild concern?
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I agree this is the right approach. However, I am having trouble with it myself. I feel like Trump being am an uninformed, unprepared, lying, cheating con man is so obvious that to debate with Trump supporters is akin to arguing over the color of the sky with someone that insists it's orange. 

 
Ilov80s said:
I agree this is the right approach. However, I am having trouble with it myself. I feel like Trump being am an uninformed, unprepared, lying, cheating con man is so obvious that to debate with Trump supporters is akin to arguing over the color of the sky with someone that insists it's orange. 
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It is the challenge of our age and a daunting one at that.  Maybe start with asking them if they ever recall a time when the sky at least had a bit of a bluish hue. 

 
Underachievers said:
Liberals just need to stop crying about every percieved injustice.  The seemingly constant barrage of protests and cries of racism, homophobia, misogyny etc etc has happened so often that you can no longer be taken seriously about anything.
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I concur.  I'm mid/late 40s and have been working since GHWB in a 9-5 job, and maybe that has ground me down somewhat.  I'm neither stupid nor an unkind person, just busy, a good citizen and neighbor, work hard and pay taxes.  The non-stop moaning over the last 18 years has moved me firmly and inexorably into the DGAF camp on many of "The Issues".  Frankly, many of The Issues just don't matter to me all that much, and I think it is perfectly legitimate not to have to have a strong and loud opinion on every damn topic.  I could probably best express my opinion on the state of the US as "perfect is the enemy of good enough".

 
Ditka Butkus said:
I don't particularly like him now, but I don't have to like him as a person...My wealth is good, gas prices are fairly low, my job is secure, my health insurance is great, things that affect me are just fine...I'm selfish, I don't get caught up in what is going on with my neighbor, that is his responsibility...If he asks for help I will help, until then I'll assume everything is ok...
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Lots of people are asking for help. For example, the Parkland kids are asking for help to try and make the country safer. Colin Kapernick and other NFL players are asking for help to improve police-community relationships, reduce police violence. I see lots of people asking for help with issues that seem legitimate to them. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Guessed you missed Jislander taking shots at me yesterday.  And  :lmao:  dedfin has been calling those he disagrees with mutants for days now.

Nice try though
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I'm not saying you're the only one that takes shots at others but I keep noticing that's about all you contribute in the political forum.  Very little discussion, just one liners and rolling emojis.  Why not join a conversation and actually share your views?  Offer something substantial.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
I'm not saying you're the only one that takes shots at others but I keep noticing that's about all you contribute in the political forum.  Very little discussion, just one liners and rolling emojis.  Why not join a conversation and actually share your views?  Offer something substantial.
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I have when there is actual discussion on something beyond the trolls that attack 24/7.  I've posted my opinions on several topics from gun control to Kaepernick to Bennett and others.  Funny how you decide to call me out when there are many others that contribute a lot less than I do.    

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
I have when there is actual discussion on something beyond the trolls that attack 24/7.  I've posted my opinions on several topics from gun control to Kaepernick to Bennett and others.  Funny how you decide to call me out when there are many others that contribute a lot less than I do.    
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If you have contributed a lot then I apologize but the threads that I have frequented I just don't see it.  I don't see much trolling from others but I find yours to be borderline trolling.  We even had one of the moderators of the site start a thread about how to have better conversations on here which included not using emojis only for a response yet you seem to be the worst offender.  Very little content, mostly one liners and emojis.

 
Hawkeye21 said:
If you have contributed a lot then I apologize but the threads that I have frequented I just don't see it.  I don't see much trolling from others but I find yours to be borderline trolling.  We even had one of the moderators of the site start a thread about how to have better conversations on here which included not using emojis only for a response yet you seem to be the worst offender.  Very little content, mostly one liners and emojis.
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When you ask a question for clarification, it gets ignored.  

JIslander said:
Daily tantrums?  Good lord that's :lmao:   I've probably had 8 post in the last 10 days.

But back to your comment, it seemed "bitter" as I said.  Can you expound on the ACA and the kids and them getting jobs thing a little more?
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Hawkeye21 said:
If you have contributed a lot then I apologize but the threads that I have frequented I just don't see it.  I don't see much trolling from others but I find yours to be borderline trolling.  We even had one of the moderators of the site start a thread about how to have better conversations on here which included not using emojis only for a response yet you seem to be the worst offender.  Very little content, mostly one liners and emojis.
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You have selective reading then.  Carry on

 
JIslander said:
When you ask a question for clarification, it gets ignored.  
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No.  When your first reply is a trolling jab then I'm not really interested in having a discussion with you.  I've had that stance here for months now because it's never really productive.  If you want a productive conversation then you wouldn't be posting trolling one-liners towards me.  

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Why bother, because we all have to live together.  Right now I believe the left smells blood in the water.  They anticipate, and I think correctly, that they are about to achieve a resounding repudiation of Trump and his policies.  They see power returning to their hands.  They intend, this time to rule, and to rule decisively.  That rule will mean imposing their agenda and tamping down all things and folks opposed.  They have lost tolerance for those who think differently, frustrated by their lack of ability to communicate with the right and to sway them.  I understand this.  When reason and facts seem to hold no sway debate is frustrating.  The thing is, one cannot live comfortably for long suppressing (read oppressing) one's neighbors and fellow citizens.  This leads to fractious and contentious behavior and the pendulum then swings.  Power wielded too commandingly always brings fosters and emboldens opposition. 

I think dialog is essential. Sure, comes a time when legislative action must be taken when one is in power, but that action with dialog, even failed dialog seems like statesmanship, without it, it seems like oppression.

Maurile has the correct take, in my estimation.  Speak to issues, not sweeping generalizations, explain yourself with patience and understanding, and without denigrating the opposing side.  Find what commonalities one can, even if they are small and try to build on them.

For instance, on gun control, acknowledge that both sides are concerned for their safety.  Acknowledge that both sides are seeking security for themselves and their families.  Stop with the dialog crushing insults one to the other and accept and embrace concessions, even if they are not the concessions you seek, as maybe one concession begets another.

Oh, finally, don't accept the idea that trolls are representative of the opposing faction.  learn to marginalize the flamethrowers by ignoring them and still engaging the larger majority who are reasonable even if that has been forgotten in the shear volume trolls seem to produce.  Damn trolls are indefatigable. 
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This is good, but I don't think the bolded is quite fair. I think the left/Dems see no reason to continue playing by the previous unwritten rules of governance and civil discourse after what the GOP congress has done first with the McConnell obstruction tactics that culminated with the Merrick Garland fiasco and now with Trumpism turning all of that up to 11.  It's not that they will be "tamped down" or not tolerated as much as they will simply be ignored, IMO.

As I've said before, it's as if everyone was playing a board game and when the GOP/right fell behind they stood up, knocked the game off the table and then later came back and burned the entire house to the ground. You can't really expect anyone to sit down among the ashes and start playing the board game again. The plan, I hope, will be to slowly rebuild the house with zero expectation of help from the arsonists until they demonstrate remorse and a willingness to cooperate.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
This is good, but I don't think the bolded is quite fair. I think the left/Dems see no reason to continue playing by the rules of governance and civil discourse after what the GOP congress has done first with the McConnell obstruction tactics that culminated with the Merrick Garland fiasco and now with Trumpism turning all of that up to 11.  It's not that they will be "tamped down" or not tolerated as much as they will simply be ignored, IMO.

As I've said before, it's as if everyone was playing a board game and when the GOP/right fell behind they stood up, knocked the game off the table and then later came back and burned the entire house to the ground. You can't really expect anyone to sit down among the ashes and start playing the board game again. The plan, I hope, will be to slowly rebuild the house with zero expectation of help from the arsonists until they demonstrate remorse and a willingness to cooperate.
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Certainly I am suggesting acting beyond reason and I am advocating to let substantial provocation go unanswered, unless taking the high road, being the better person, is answer.  I believe that it is.  We are, in my estimation, in need of well-modeled behavior.  I appeal for it to the only side in this partisan world I see as remotely capable of getting there at this juncture (while realizing my view may be clouded by my disillusion).    It is not fair to place my hopes there, but it is something I do out of desperation and perceived necessity.  perhaps I am wrong. perhaps from the right will emerge a leader, someone able to forge a common vision. If that were to happen would the left feel they have missed an opportunity?

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
No.  When your first reply is a trolling jab then I'm not really interested in having a discussion with you.  I've had that stance here for months now because it's never really productive.  If you want a productive conversation then you wouldn't be posting trolling one-liners towards me.  
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Revisionist history here.  But like the OP said.  Why Bother? Case in point.

 
timschochet said:
Obviously I’m someone who loves debate and discussion. But this sort of post creates a dilemma for me; there is so much false I dislike about it, so much dishonesty, that I don’t want to respond to it in a way that would invite further discussion with its writer. I feel like if I did it would be crawling through the mud with him. 
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I think this post makes it clear that you would be deep in the mud

 
Ilov80s said:
Lots of people are asking for help. For example, the Parkland kids are asking for help to try and make the country safer. Colin Kapernick and other NFL players are asking for help to improve police-community relationships, reduce police violence. I see lots of people asking for help with issues that seem legitimate to them. 
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The Parkland kids are reasonable, in fact I think they are willing to take what they can get as a start to what they want...Kapernick could have chose a much better way to bring attention to his cause...Hell, he gets to stand at a podium and address the media... Why not use that opportunity to speak...

 
As I've said on here multiple times.  I've changed my position on a number of issues from some of the debates on here over the years.  To MT's point they may have been small issues, but if I can be swayed off my talking points through intelligent discussion I don't see why others can't

 
Ditka Butkus said:
The Parkland kids are reasonable, in fact I think they are willing to take what they can get as a start to what they want...Kapernick could have chose a much better way to bring attention to his cause...Hell, he gets to stand at a podium and address the media... Why not use that opportunity to speak...
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Like that never would have resulted in worse racist bashing then him kneeling quietly ...

 
Captain Cranks said:
I usually have RW on ignore, but since I started the thread I figured I'd listen to his opinion in here.  Stupid move on my part.  
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"If you want me to participate in the discussion then don't be a troll"

Literally all that I see quoted from him.

 
Dickies said:
As I've said on here multiple times.  I've changed my position on a number of issues from some of the debates on here over the years.  To MT's point they may have been small issues, but if I can be swayed off my talking points through intelligent discussion I don't see why others can't
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Same

 
Captain Cranks said:
gunners?  See, you've already wasted time pissing around with unnecessary semantics.  
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or I didn't understand and was asking for clarification

see, you've already jumped top conclusions

 
Dickies said:
As I've said on here multiple times.  I've changed my position on a number of issues from some of the debates on here over the years.  To MT's point they may have been small issues, but if I can be swayed off my talking points through intelligent discussion I don't see why others can't
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I agree.  I attempt to see the other side.  I understand a lot of the points being made by the 2nd Amendment guys and it's bringing me closer to the center on the issue.  However, I can't have a debate with someone who's going to claim A) There's no evidence of collusion and then B) There's totally enough evidence to have Hillary locked up for life.  These people are seemingly incapable of looking at things objectively, and if they're going to be hunkered down in their partisan bunker, I'm not going to waste my time with them.

 
The Commish said:
This is patently false as it pertains to this board and it's been shown you many times over yet you continue to say this.  It's not that people don't want to discuss the issues around here.  They do and it happens a good bit.  What they aren't interested in doing is engaging the same tired, debunked talking points over and over again.  Broken records aren't fun to listen to.  

So when you're ready to acknowledge there are many different positions on the gun scale here, you let me know.  There is more to it than "us vs them"
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show me some proposed bills on gun control and I'll show you every one of them is orchestrated by liberals and Democrats

its 100% true

 
JIslander said:
Like that never would have resulted in worse racist bashing then him kneeling quietly ...
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I think he would have gotten much further...And in regards to race bashing...I would like to believe most were turned off by the perceived protest of a country that allowed him to make millions playing a child's game not his race... Replace Kapernick with Aaron Rogers and I believe the results would be mostly the same.

 
Ditka Butkus said:
The Parkland kids are reasonable, in fact I think they are willing to take what they can get as a start to what they want...Kapernick could have chose a much better way to bring attention to his cause...Hell, he gets to stand at a podium and address the media... Why not use that opportunity to speak...
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I don't really want to get into that specific argument but while the response has been very divisive, it's hard to argue that Colin could have done anything different that would have drawn the same level of national attention. 

 
Stealthycat said:
or I didn't understand and was asking for clarification

see, you've already jumped top conclusions
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I apologize for this.  You're labeling those asking for gun control as "anti-gunners".  Many of us are not anti-gun.  We're just asking for stricter gun control laws.  Would it be fair that I label those on the right as "anti-gun controllers".  In other words, those who aren't for any gun control?  I would assume not as I'm sure you're for some gun control laws just like most of us support the right to bear arms.  

 
Captain Cranks said:
My OP was about Trump supporters who seemingly disregard facts versus the rest of us. 
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Trump = conservative in most cases

I wonder just how many Trump voters actually like him - he's not likable, he's an #####. What we DO like is that he's carrying through with what he promised on conservative things, we missed that for 8 years of liberal Obama ran govt

I know for me, I'm tired of the year and a half of constant daily CNN attacks on Trump. His affair with a porn gal a decade ago is irrelevant to me. The Russia thing is a huge waste of time and only designed to sow discord IMO. It hardens me to see it constantly and makes me defiant of Trump and to allow him to do this job we the people elected him to do.

 
Captain Cranks said:
I agree.  I attempt to see the other side.  I understand a lot of the points being made by the 2nd Amendment guys and it's bringing me closer to the center on the issue.  However, I can't have a debate with someone who's going to claim A) There's no evidence of collusion and then B) There's totally enough evidence to have Hillary locked up for life.  These people are seemingly incapable of looking at things objectively, and if they're going to be hunkered down in their partisan bunker, I'm not going to waste my time with them.
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Maybe plant a few flowers outside the door to their bunkers and along a path leading out so that when they do emerge, they will be drawn out further. No need to knock on the door to the bunker right now, particularly if your knuckles are raw from the knocking.   Me, I believe you are a good man, open to reason and conciliation.  You are just exhausted right now, and who isn't?

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Maybe plant a few flowers outside the door to their bunkers and along a path leading out so that when they do emerge, they will be drawn out further. No need to knock on the door to the bunker right now, particularly if your knuckles are raw from the knocking.   Me, I believe you are a good man, open to reason and conciliation.  You are just exhausted right now, and who isn't?
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Excellent, wise points.  I dub thee winner of the thread.   

 
Dickies said:
As I've said on here multiple times.  I've changed my position on a number of issues from some of the debates on here over the years.  To MT's point they may have been small issues, but if I can be swayed off my talking points through intelligent discussion I don't see why others can't
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Because it's a cult of personality, it's not rational people disagreeing.  They don't even agree on the rules of disagreement.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Certainly I am suggesting acting beyond reason and I am advocating to let substantial provocation go unanswered, unless taking the high road, being the better person, is answer.  I believe that it is.  We are, in my estimation, in need of well-modeled behavior.  I appeal for it to the only side in this partisan world I see as remotely capable of getting there at this juncture (while realizing my view may be clouded by my disillusion).    It is not fair to place my hopes there, but it is something I do out of desperation and perceived necessity.  perhaps I am wrong. perhaps from the right will emerge a leader, someone able to forge a common vision. If that were to happen would the left feel they have missed an opportunity?
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I honestly don't know if they or anyone would be capable of doing this. Trumpism alone was obviously problematic, but I mentioned the Merrick Garland thing because I think that particular display of naked partisanship and disregard for the unwritten rules of governance may well prevent Dems/the left from dismissing Trumpism as a fluke that won't be repeated and reconciling/returning to status quo.  I have no idea how the Dems will behave if we survive the next 2-6 years and they return to power at some point. I'm not even sure how I want them to behave.

 
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Captain Cranks said:
I apologize for this.  You're labeling those asking for gun control as "anti-gunners".  Many of us are not anti-gun.  We're just asking for stricter gun control laws.  Would it be fair that I label those on the right as "anti-gun controllers".  In other words, those who aren't for any gun control?  I would assume not as I'm sure you're for some gun control laws just like most of us support the right to bear arms
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yes to me anti-gun is when you want to put in place laws that impact 100% legal law abiding people and do nothing towards criminals. I see zero positives in doing that.

I'm in favor of abortion only in medical situations ... am I anti-abortion or pro-abortion ? or somewhere in between ?

its easy to talk anti-xxx and pro-xxxx ....... it clearly defines the lines drawn in the sand. heck in some of these threads people want to repeal the 2nd Amendment, ban semi-auto guns, etc ..... that's pretty anti if you ask me !!

but yeah, its a blanket statement for sure, however Democrat platform is anti-gun, consistent and true, they'd ban them all if they could, I've posted links to the latest bills proposed to ban literally almost every gun hunters and sportsmen have, sponsored by Democrats of course

 
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