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The migrant caravan (2 Viewers)

shader said:
Aren’t there something like 500k “illegal” immigrants a year?  4K is a drop in the bucket.
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Did those 500k come in groups of 4k at a time? If you had just walked 1000 miles, would you want to walk another 100 or 500 miles to get further into the U.S.? 

 
timschochet said:
Love that song. But what does “haver” mean? 
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I don’t know, nor was I willing to look up the lyrics, but that’s what I sing. Probably some sort of Australian (or New Zealand?) word for something that falls somewhere  between the righteous brothers and Clarence carter. 

 
The number of people in the caravan is now 7,000. Yesterday Trump referrered to them as an “onslaught” and an “assault on our country”- as if these poor people were suicide bombers or armed to the teeth. 

Long before Trump, the word “invasion” has been used to describe anyone who attempted to come to this country from our southern border. 

 
If we are to believe these are legitimate asylum claims, how is this number growing so rapidly in Mexico?   Is economic poverty or improvement our new standard to who we are granting entry as opposed to safety?  

 
Shula-holic said:
If we are to believe these are legitimate asylum claims, how is this number growing so rapidly in Mexico?   Is economic poverty or improvement our new standard to who we are granting entry as opposed to safety?  
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Why do we need to have a standard? Why not listen to each applicant, let them tell their story and then decide? 

 
timschochet said:
Why do we need to have a standard? Why not listen to each applicant, let them tell their story and then decide? 
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There is a standard already. You and I may not know it but the people who vet asylum claims know it. 

Also, that standard evolves over time, and pobably not always in the same direction

 
timschochet said:
Why do we need to have a standard? Why not listen to each applicant, let them tell their story and then decide? 
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I think not having a standard when you're deciding something on a mass scale is a pretty bad idea.  I doubt either of us would be happy with some arbitrary rulings that could be made in either direction.  But the fact the numbers have swelled as they have in Mexico only leads to more doubt that these are true cases of people seeking asylum due to fear of political persecution.

 
Shula-holic said:
I think not having a standard when you're deciding something on a mass scale is a pretty bad idea.  I doubt either of us would be happy with some arbitrary rulings that could be made in either direction.  But the fact the numbers have swelled as they have in Mexico only leads to more doubt that these are true cases of people seeking asylum due to fear of political persecution.
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Not necessarily. I don’t know the reason for the numbers swelling. It may have started out a much larger number, then separated, and later on united. 

In any case I have very little doubt that these people have faced both political persecution and economic destitution, because we know what’s going on in the countries they’re from. We also know they risked everything to get here: their lives, their families, the threat of separation, and everything they possess. Aside from all other factors, their willingness to sacrifice so much to come here should stand for something. It does to me anyhow. 

 
timschochet said:
You’re concerned about a problem which has not existed and never existed. There has always been plenty of room here. There’s not close to not being plenty of room, not even a little close. If we ever come close to not having enough room, come talk to me then, but it’s not going to be in our lifetimes or our children’s. And it certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with these current migrants. 

You claim it’s nothing to do with race. Fine I will accept that from you. But per polling it’s not true of a lot of people. It’s certainly not true of our President or of some of his supporters who have posted in this thread. The unreasonable fear of inmigrants from South America is very much connected to White nationalist fears that in a few years they will no longer be the majority. This is a large part of the reason Trump was elected. 
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Houston disagrees with you. 

This is the problem with discussion about this stuff with you. You often go to these huge generalizations. 

Tim: See look, America is huge!!! We have plenty of room. Anybody saying that we have any chance at issues from too many immigrants must be racist! Oh and btw everybody climate change is really important to me this week so let's make sure we build more mass transit and more affordable housing in urban areas so we can eliminate cars on the road. Did I mention america is huge and we have so much room? 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Houston disagrees with you. 

This is the problem with discussion about this stuff with you. You often go to these huge generalizations. 

Tim: See look, America is huge!!! We have plenty of room. Anybody saying that we have any chance at issues from too many immigrants must be racist! Oh and btw everybody climate change is really important to me this week so let's make sure we build more mass transit and more affordable housing in urban areas so we can eliminate cars on the road. Did I mention america is huge and we have so much room? 
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Not a very good representation of what I believe at all. 

1. I won’t discuss the racism issue again except to repeat that most people who disagree with me on immigration are not racist. 

2. I have no idea if mass transit is the answer to anything, including climate change. I have never pushed for that “solution”. 

 
timschochet said:
Not a very good representation of what I believe at all. 

1. I won’t discuss the racism issue again except to repeat that most people who disagree with me on immigration are not racist. 

2. I have no idea if mass transit is the answer to anything, including climate change. I have never pushed for that “solution”. 
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You cant be all about climate change this week on one hand but then want to add more people spread out across america relying on automobiles and obviously increasing the amount of diesel trucks transporting goods to these areas now.  

 
Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump 3h3 hours ago

Sadly, it looks like Mexico’s Police and Military are unable to stop the Caravan heading to the Southern Border of the United States. Criminals and unknown Middle Easterners are mixed in. I have alerted Border Patrol and Military that this is a National Emergy. Must change laws!
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Wat? Unknown Middle Easterners? Where he is getting that from?

National Emergy?

 
parasaurolophus said:
You cant be all about climate change this week on one hand but then want to add more people spread out across america relying on automobiles and obviously increasing the amount of diesel trucks transporting goods to these areas now.  
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Umm, climate change is a world wide issue, so I really doubt whether more people are here or in Latin America is going to have a huge affect. 

 
timschochet said:
I’ve heard a lot of arguments against more immigration, but bringing up climate change is certainly a new one. 
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And most of these new arrivals (assuming the caravan makes it here) will probably be taking public transit and I would doubt that the amount of additional diesel fuel used in city buses would be, at best, no more than a negligible contribution to global warming.  

 
timschochet said:
I’ve heard a lot of arguments against more immigration, but bringing up climate change is certainly a new one. 
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I am only bringing up your new love affair with climate change being the most important issue right now to point out how hypocritical you are being when you say America has tons of room for plenty more people.

In order to make that statement it would mean that we would have to start forcing immigrants to disperse in a more equal manner across the US. If we did that (which we don't obviously) it would have a bigger negative effect on climate change. Somebody claiming that climate change is the single most important issue right now should not be advocating things that would have a negative effect on climate change.

Unless of course you are advocating that people that come her from other countries that currently don't own vehicles (you know almost all of them) shouldn't be able to buy vehicles. 

 
timschochet said:
I often make jokes about the use of George Soros, but it’s actually very frightening. That so many people seem to think there is a Jewish mastermind plotting to help bring about a secret agenda...it’s classic anti-semitism. Soros takes the role the Rothschilds used to have. 
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Do you ever listen to yourself? Nearly everything you say, every post you provide is colored through the eyes of “race”.  Now it’s the Jews. I like to think I keep up on politics and certainly knew who Soros is but not as a Jew. I know him as a super rich lefty who has dealings with leftist causes all over the world. 

 
timschochet said:
The number of people in the caravan is now 7,000. Yesterday Trump referrered to them as an “onslaught” and an “assault on our country”- as if these poor people were suicide bombers or armed to the teeth. 

Long before Trump, the word “invasion” has been used to describe anyone who attempted to come to this country from our southern border. 
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I’m quite sure if they came from the north in those numbers it would also be referee to as an invasion. 

Also I thought there was a treaty that you could only cross one border and ask for asylum anything farther and you’re an economic immigrant.  

 
rude classless thugs said:
And most of these new arrivals (assuming the caravan makes it here) will probably be taking public transit and I would doubt that the amount of additional diesel fuel used in city buses would be, at best, no more than a negligible contribution to global warming.  
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Because immigrants don't spread out equally across the US. So arguing that the US has plenty of room isn't a legit argument countering people that are concerned about the financial impact or a tipping point of too many immigrants. Well unless you advocate for a more equal distribution across the US. 

 
Really going to make for some interesting decisions if they get here.  The tone I'm getting from Trumps rhetoric (and anecdotally some of the rhetoric from some of his supporters I know) is that violence against this group will and should happen.  

 
parasaurolophus said:
Because immigrants don't spread out equally across the US. So arguing that the US has plenty of room isn't a legit argument countering people that are concerned about the financial impact or a tipping point of too many immigrants. Well unless you advocate for a more equal distribution across the US.
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You are moving the goalposts. You were arguing that we shouldn't accept more immigrants if we are really concerned with global warming as being the most important issue facing us, as they will somehow add to the climate change problem.  Now you are shifting it to the financial impact or some sort of tipping point with the economy.

 
boots11234 said:
Do you ever listen to yourself? Nearly everything you say, every post you provide is colored through the eyes of “race”.  Now it’s the Jews. I like to think I keep up on politics and certainly knew who Soros is but not as a Jew. I know him as a super rich lefty who has dealings with leftist causes all over the world. 
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The Soros stuff is most definitely a conspiracy theory, but I seriously doubt there’s any racial bias behind it at all.  Most people behind that are also strongly behind Israel and also claim that Soros was actually a Nazi collaborator.

 
I won’t discuss the Soros stuff any more because I don’t want to hijack the thread with it. I’ll just point out that it borrows a lot of anti-Semitic tropes throughout history, and that many of the people who buy into it aren’t aware of that. That’s all. 

 
Thunderlips said:
Really going to make for some interesting decisions if they get here.  The tone I'm getting from Trumps rhetoric (and anecdotally some of the rhetoric from some of his supporters I know) is that violence against this group will and should happen.  
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Well there are criminals and unknown mid-eastern people mixed in with the group so probably safer to just shoot first.

 
parasaurolophus said:
I am only bringing up your new love affair with climate change being the most important issue right now to point out how hypocritical you are being when you say America has tons of room for plenty more people.

In order to make that statement it would mean that we would have to start forcing immigrants to disperse in a more equal manner across the US. If we did that (which we don't obviously) it would have a bigger negative effect on climate change. Somebody claiming that climate change is the single most important issue right now should not be advocating things that would have a negative effect on climate change.

Unless of course you are advocating that people that come her from other countries that currently don't own vehicles (you know almost all of them) shouldn't be able to buy vehicles. 
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First off, I don’t have a “love affair” with climate change; I’m seriously worried about it, and have been for about 5 years now. Compared to immigration I suppose that’s new. Whatever. 

Next- every group of immigrants or refugees that has ever come here has huddled in the big cities, brought poverty and some crime with them, and for a time, sometimes decades, put a strain on local and national resources. And every time someone like you has complained that we can’t afford them, it’s too costly, they bring trouble, etc. But of course we could afford them and still can. And the wealth they eventually produce makes it well worth the cost every time. 

 
rude classless thugs said:
You are moving the goalposts. You were arguing that we shouldn't accept more immigrants if we are really concerned with global warming as being the most important issue facing us, as they will somehow add to the climate change problem.  Now you are shifting it to the financial impact or some sort of tipping point with the economy.
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I didnt move anything. If you go back, you will see the conversation started with somebody bringing up a tipping point and then Tim saying we have plenty of room. The goalposts are right where they started based on the bold.

 
parasaurolophus said:
I didnt move anything. If you go back, you will see the conversation started with somebody bringing up a tipping point and then Tim saying we have plenty of room. The goalposts are right where they started based on the bold.
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Suppose it does cost a lot of money, just for the sake of argument. Why isn’t this a worthwhile expenditure? 

 
parasaurolophus said:
I didnt move anything. If you go back, you will see the conversation started with somebody bringing up a tipping point and then Tim saying we have plenty of room. The goalposts are right where they started based on the bold.
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So where did your comments about climate change come from and how were they related to what Tim said about having plenty of room?

 
Trump is busy this morning tweeting about these people and bringing the ugly. Now he’s warning without evidence that there are middle easterners among them. Which of course must mean terrorists. 

 
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