USA DUI Deaths (and how they relate to other things)

[Politician Spock 5,228]

8 minutes ago, KCitons said:

This is where we just agree to disagree. You say it's a valid reason. I say it doesn't. 

You think the government should be providing assistance to prevent it. But, you don't think that the government should be providing assistance to prevent abortions. 

We have a fundamental difference in our approach. 

If you want to be anti-suicide prevention, that's your choice.

In fact, please do. Be really loud about it too. 

[FreeBaGeL 6,879]

2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

You seem to be stuck on the roadblocks to gun regulation. If you think there are too many alcohol related deaths, then you should be more active in finding a solution. You think there are too many gun related deaths, so you've been active about finding a solution. 

One could make the conclusion that you don't think there are too many alcohol related deaths. 

That is an insane extrapolation that makes so little sense, and on top of that is so far outside the context of what we were discussing (why isn't alcohol a bigger issue in elections) that we may as well be talking about unicorns at this point.

Regardless, I'll respond.  I am not a politician.  I agree that there are too many alcohol related deaths, and as such I am not going to oppose a candidate in an election if they make reasonable suggestion on how to limit that.  If a politician says we need to require people to adhere to federal ID standards at outdoor beerfests I am not going to immediately cross that candidate off my list as being "anti-booze".  If a brewer's association was funding ads against candidates where a guy reaches for a beer after a long day of work and then it disappears in front of him and a narrator says "Donald J Trump wants to take this god given freedom away" I am not going to go to reply with "#### YEA.  OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!".

And that's the reason that alcohol isn't a political issue.

[KCitons 3,824]

1 minute ago, Politician Spock said:

If you want to be anti-suicide prevention, that's your choice.

In fact, please do. Be really loud about it too. 

No worst that being pro abortion. Plenty of loud mouths out there.

[KCitons 3,824]

1 minute ago, FreeBaGeL said:

That is an insane extrapolation that makes so little sense, and on top of that is so far outside the context of what we were discussing (why isn't alcohol a bigger issue in elections) that we may as well be talking about unicorns at this point.

Regardless, I'll respond.  I am not a politician.  I agree that there are too many alcohol related deaths, and as such I am not going to oppose a candidate in an election if they make reasonable suggestion on how to limit that.  If a politician says we need to require people to adhere to federal ID standards at outdoor beerfests I am not going to immediately cross that candidate off my list as being "anti-booze".  If a brewer's association was funding ads against candidates where a guy reaches for a beer after a long day of work and then it disappears in front of him and a narrator says "Donald J Trump wants to take this god given freedom away" I am not going to go to reply with "#### YEA.  OUT OF MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!!".

And that's the reason that alcohol isn't a political issue.

You're still doing it. 

Your complaint is about the way gun owners have argued against proposed regulations. You're being spiteful. 

[Politician Spock 5,228]

3 minutes ago, KCitons said:

No worst that being pro abortion. Plenty of loud mouths out there.

I used to be a hard stanced pro-lifer. It's no worse being on either side. 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

2 hours ago, KCitons said:

No worst that being pro abortion. Plenty of loud mouths out there.

I dont know many people that are pro-abortion.  

[KCitons 3,824]

1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

I dont know many people that are pro-abortion.  

semantics. 

[Apple Jack 3,626]

26 minutes ago, KCitons said:

semantics. 

No, words mean things.

[Politician Spock 5,228]

6 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

No, words mean things.

Exactly.

It's not like those suicides... which mean nothing. 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

8 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

No, words mean things.

Exactly. 

[KCitons 3,824]

Really? Pro abortion, pro choice or anti abortion, pro life. 

If you want to take it a step further, isn't suicide pro choice?

 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

17 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Really? Pro abortion, pro choice or anti abortion, pro life. 

If you want to take it a step further, isn't suicide pro choice?

 

I think there is a difference between pro choice and pro abortion

[KCitons 3,824]

1 minute ago, KarmaPolice said:

I think there is a difference between pro choice and pro abortion

You may think that. But, where did the term pro choice come from?

[Politician Spock 5,228]

1 hour ago, KCitons said:

You may think that. But, where did the term pro choice come from?

Jimmye Kimmey

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

4 hours ago, KCitons said:

You may think that. But, where did the term pro choice come from?

Don't know, but also not sure why that matters.  

 

 

[KCitons 3,824]

29 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Don't know, but also not sure why that matters.  

 

 

In your mind, it doesn't. But then you're the one that wanted to say:

4 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I think there is a difference between pro choice and pro abortion

Encyclopedia.com

Quote

PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT. The pro-choice movement has sought to keep abortion safe, legal, and accessible to women. Advocates of abortion rights began using the term "pro-choice" in the years after the 1973 Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade, which found that the Constitution of the United Statesprotects abortion rights. They adopted the term to emphasize that their cause is women's choice, not abortion per se, and to counter the antiabortion, or "pro-life," movement's description of them as "pro-abortion." People in the pro-choice movement believe that women should have control over their reproductive lives as a legal fact and fundamental right, and that abortion should be available to all women.

 What were they called before 1973?  Pro Abortion. 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

Still not sure what your point is, but don't feel like arguing about it.  I am against abortion, but pro-choice because I don't get to decide that for other people. 

 

[KCitons 3,824]

4 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Still not sure what your point is, but don't feel like arguing about it.  I am against abortion, but pro-choice because I don't get to decide that for other people. 

 

Right. Ignorance is bliss. 

You're against abortion, but pro-choice. It you do realize there would be no pro-choice without abortion?

Keep the bolded in mind whenever you site gun deaths that include suicides. People have a right to decide. 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

8 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Right. Ignorance is bliss. 

You're against abortion, but pro-choice. It you do realize there would be no pro-choice without abortion?

Keep the bolded in mind whenever you site gun deaths that include suicides. People have a right to decide. 

Ignorance is bliss?

You are the one equating the two, not me.  I don't see them as the same thing, and also don't think I have said that they don't have the right to choose that.  

[timschochet 24,469]

44 minutes ago, KCitons said:

In your mind, it doesn't. But then you're the one that wanted to say:

Encyclopedia.com

 What were they called before 1973?  Pro Abortion. 

This is false. Before 1973, there was no term for it, but the closest thing was being for a woman having a right to an abortion. The woman’s movement never encouraged abortions, which you so cleverly (not really) appear to be implying. 

[timschochet 24,469]

There is no good analogy between abortion and suicide. There is no good analogy between trying to solve mental illness, trying to regulate alcohol, and gun control. These are all non-sequiters.  

[timschochet 24,469]

After all, England has similar problems with alcohol and mental illness that we do. What they don’t have are gun deaths. 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

7 minutes ago, timschochet said:

This is false. Before 1973, there was no term for it, but the closest thing was being for a woman having a right to an abortion. The woman’s movement never encouraged abortions, which you so cleverly (not really) appear to be implying. 

Yeah, when I see the term pro-abortion I assume is a not so thinly veiled attempt to demonize it and suggest that it's the woman's primary form of birth control or that the decision is reached easily and without a care in the world.  

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

2 minutes ago, timschochet said:

After all, England has similar problems with alcohol and mental illness that we do. What they don’t have are gun deaths. 

But, but.... they have that knife problem!! 

(channeling a little SC here)

[KCitons 3,824]

12 minutes ago, timschochet said:

After all, England has similar problems with alcohol and mental illness that we do. What they don’t have are gun deaths. 

 

10 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

But, but.... they have that knife problem!! 

(channeling a little SC here)

You joke. But this proves the point that people will still find ways to hurt other people unless you remove the desire to do so. 

[timschochet 24,469]

Just now, KCitons said:

 

You joke. But this proves the point that people will still find ways to hurt other people unless you remove the desire to do so. 

Not as easily they can here. 

[KCitons 3,824]

20 minutes ago, timschochet said:

There is no good analogy between abortion and suicide. There is no good analogy between trying to solve mental illness, trying to regulate alcohol, and gun control. These are all non-sequiters.  

Sure there is. I'm going to call it all Pro-Choice. We all get to choose whatever is best for us. 

[KCitons 3,824]

Just now, timschochet said:

Not as easily they can here. 

Yeah. Imagine if they had guns in England. I bet there would be less knife violence. Problem solved.

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

6 minutes ago, KCitons said:

 

You joke. But this proves the point that people will still find ways to hurt other people unless you remove the desire to do so. 

Sure, in way less effective and efficient ways and with a reduction in casualties.  Remember when SC and I talked about this knife problem and how few deaths we were talking about?  While still sad those people died, the "problem" that the UK has is probably about 1 days worth of deaths in the US from guns.  

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

11 minutes ago, KCitons said:

 We all get to choose whatever is best for us. 

My libertarian leanings has me being down with this for the most part.  

[timschochet 24,469]

13 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Yeah. Imagine if they had guns in England. I bet there would be less knife violence. Problem solved.

This is a bizzare statement. 

[KCitons 3,824]

5 minutes ago, timschochet said:

This is a bizzare statement. 

It was a joke. 

[Politician Spock 5,228]

10 hours ago, KCitons said:

Sure there is. I'm going to call it all Pro-Choice. We all get to choose whatever is best for us. 

Choice is always good... until it results in anarchy. 

[zDragon 23]

18 hours ago, timschochet said:

Not as easily they can here. 

Yep just need a car and some good drink.

[Apple Jack 3,626]

18 hours ago, KCitons said:

 

You joke. But this proves the point that people will still find ways to hurt other people unless you remove the desire to do so. 

Hurting people > killing people

[KCitons 3,824]

6 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

Hurting people > killing people

That's really the argument you want to have?  Replace hurt with kill and it's still valid. 

 

 

[Politician Spock 5,228]

13 minutes ago, KCitons said:

21 minutes ago, Apple Jack said:

Hurting people > killing people

That's really the argument you want to have?  Replace hurt with kill and it's still valid. 

"Killing people > Killing people" returns FALSE.

 

[KCitons 3,824]

Just now, Politician Spock said:

"Killing people > Killing people" returns FALSE.

 

Replacing the word hurt with kill in my original statement returns TRUE.

[Politician Spock 5,228]

1 minute ago, KCitons said:

Replacing the word hurt with kill in my original statement returns TRUE.

Ah... I understand now.

Yes, I agree with you there.

[KCitons 3,824]

Three killed, six injured.

Sounds  like a headline for a mass shooting. But it's not. 

Quote

Three relatives were killed and six others were injured in a crash while heading for Niagara Falls on a holiday weekend trip, when a suspected drunken driver’s pickup truck hit their SUV, authorities said.

A child of 4 was among the dead, and four other children were injured, Wyoming County Sheriff Gregory Rudolph said.

Six others, including four children ranging in age from 4 to 14, were taken to hospitals. One man was released after treatment. The others’ conditions weren’t immediately available.

We need to protect our children, but only from guns.

Quote

The pickup driver, Richard Sawicki, 20, was arrested on aggravated vehicular homicide, DWI and reckless driving charges. He was arraigned and held on $200,000 bond.

Twenty??!!? What's the legal drinking age in every state? Complaining about someone than obtains a gun at legal age, while we still make it possible for a 20 year old to obtain alcohol and kill 3 people seems hypocritical. 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

Not sure why it's so hard to understand that we can do both.  

Sorry there aren't more protests again alcohol, I guess? 

Edited May 27 by KarmaPolice

[KCitons 3,824]

7 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Not sure why it's so hard to understand that we can do both.  

Sorry there aren't more protests again alcohol, I guess? 

Why are you apologizing?

Are we trying to do both?

[KCitons 3,824]

There are those that believe training, testing, licensing, and insurance will prevent (or at least make the victims better) when it comes to gun regulation.

Don't we have training, testing, licensing and insurance around operating a motor vehicle? Isn't there commercials and PSAs about drinking and driving? Did that do anything to prevent that 4 year old child from dying? 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

Ah yes, back to these solutions needing to solve all deaths stuff? 

[KCitons 3,824]

21 minutes ago, KarmaPolice said:

Ah yes, back to these solutions needing to solve all deaths stuff? 

Is that what you think?

How about the anger towards gun owners each time a child is killed at a school. But, when a child dies due to a dui? Meh. 

I'll use a SP tactic. You must be pro dui?

[Glass Joe 522]

3 minutes ago, KCitons said:

Is that what you think?

How about the anger towards gun owners each time a child is killed at a school. But, when a child dies due to a dui? Meh. 

I'll use a SP tactic. You must be pro dui?

Yeah one of the things I hate most is all the outpouring of sympathy for drunk drivers. Everyone loves them.

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

I don't know what you want KC.  

I am disturbed by both.  No, I am not taking to the streets over every DUI, but I am also not taking to the streets about every mass shooting either.  I highly doubt you are either.  We are talking about stuff on an internet site.   

[KCitons 3,824]

10 hours ago, Glass Joe said:

Yeah one of the things I hate most is all the outpouring of sympathy for drunk drivers. Everyone loves them.

Sympathy? Who said anything about sympathy? 

I'm talking about the inability to control alcohol in this country and the selfishness of people to not act responsibly. Some think that our government can do a better job regulating guns. Even though they failed regulating alcohol or drugs. 

[KCitons 3,824]

10 hours ago, KarmaPolice said:

I don't know what you want KC.  

I am disturbed by both.  No, I am not taking to the streets over every DUI, but I am also not taking to the streets about every mass shooting either.  I highly doubt you are either.  We are talking about stuff on an internet site.   

Just highlighting the truth. (and the hypocrisy)

People are angry that kids might not be safe at school. Or at church. Or at a concert. But how do they get to those places? It's similar to the lefts complaint of the right in regards to abortion. They care about he child in the womb, but then don't have programs to take care of it once it's born. 

 

 

[KarmaPolice 8,814]

Keep rocking the "hypocrisy" posts, it's amusing.   I am sure that people worried about their kids' safety at school and church aren't worried about their kids' safety on the way to school.