80+ UK Doctors: Failed COVID Policies Caused ‘Massive’ Harm, Especially to Children (1 Viewer)

[sho nuff]

This has always been the case, but the internet amplifies the voice of fringe groups, and makes it easy to appeal to authority, even when no real expertise exists. While there are a few salient arguments in the letter, many others have been debunked, multiple times, to the point it isn’t really worth the effort to rehash the opposing, mainstream stance. Thankfully, policy makers and clinicians who care for covid patients aren’t so easily duped.

I thought this was interesting as a historical reference:

Other than a few titles, what do we really know about the people who penned this letter? How do they overlap with the 46K “medical practitioners” who signed The Great Barrington Declaration?

I think one of the main people from the source site (not Epoch, that other Covid19Assembly) was big in the Barrington thing.  Dr. Marvin Kulldorff

 

[ekbeats]

Knock off what?   Finding reliable sources?  

Do you think they doctored the letter that they published?  Because the letter is subject of this thread.

 

[the moops]

First, let me state that Covid was awful and even though I am going to speak positive of the Covid lockdowns that does not mean that I think Covid was good.

The lockdowns are directly responsible for the remote working/schooling that was implemented in much of the country. In the fall of 2020 and in early 2021 there was a point that we were responsibly vacationing for a total of 6 out of 12 months. It was great.

This year, now that returned to normal, i still get the benefit of longer vacations. I can extend a vacation for my family by simply staying back at the hotel/cabin, etc and putting in 8 hours of work.

The lockdowns will benefit my kids further when they hit the workforce, by then more companies will have the awesome policy that my company currently implements.

I would argue with anyone that says that lockdowns were bad for our kids future, I see it as the largest positive change to society that we have had in the last 50+years.

I feel similar. I do understand that we may be outliers, but perhaps not as much as I may think.

Our two kids, boys aged 8 and 10 now, have become close as can be best friends. They were always tight, but during covid, they became super tight. And as a family, we have become more connected and loving. I got to work from home about half the time, my wife can work wherever she wants (generally at home but many times on road trips and "vacations"). 

Not having to commute 30 minutes a day, not having to pay for parking on downtown, not having to navigate tight schedules, not having to be at work late into the evening, etc. All that has greatly increased our quality of life. Our kids still got to play and hang with neighbors and other friends during this whole thing.

There are definite downsides, for sure. Most paramount not seeing distance family as much as we would like, especially my mom and dad who are high risk. But overall, I think going forward, we will have a much better work/life balance and our family is a stronger unit  than it was.

 

[sho nuff]

I feel similar. I do understand that we may be outliers, but perhaps not as much as I may think.

Our two kids, boys aged 8 and 10 now, have become close as can be best friends. They were always tight, but during covid, they became super tight. And as a family, we have become more connected and loving. I got to work from home about half the time, my wife can work wherever she wants (generally at home but many times on road trips and "vacations"). 

Not having to commute 30 minutes a day, not having to pay for parking on downtown, not having to navigate tight schedules, not having to be at work late into the evening, etc. All that has greatly increased our quality of life. Our kids still got to play and hang with neighbors and other friends during this whole thing.

There are definite downsides, for sure. Most paramount not seeing distance family as much as we would like, especially my mom and dad who are high risk. But overall, I think going forward, we will have a much better work/life balance and our family is a stronger unit  than it was.

 Yeah...there were clear downsides for sure.  I think it disrupted so much school for our kids that set them behind in ways...and for my already introverted daughter, made her too comfortable at home.  

The good with school...both kid's schools have put so much more online now.  They have laptops at school they bring home.  Most of their homework is online now making it easier for us to keep up with as well and make sure they are keeping up with their school work.  Making it easier this week when my daughter has been out sick for 3 days that she is not as behind as she could be without that type of online work and lessons.

Teachers also seem more available with communication and if needed teams/zoom meetings to discuss things with "office hours" rather than having to get to the school to meet with them.

 

[Godsbrother]

I feel similar. I do understand that we may be outliers, but perhaps not as much as I may think.

Our two kids, boys aged 8 and 10 now, have become close as can be best friends. They were always tight, but during covid, they became super tight. And as a family, we have become more connected and loving. I got to work from home about half the time, my wife can work wherever she wants (generally at home but many times on road trips and "vacations"). 

Not having to commute 30 minutes a day, not having to pay for parking on downtown, not having to navigate tight schedules, not having to be at work late into the evening, etc. All that has greatly increased our quality of life. Our kids still got to play and hang with neighbors and other friends during this whole thing.

There are definite downsides, for sure. Most paramount not seeing distance family as much as we would like, especially my mom and dad who are high risk. But overall, I think going forward, we will have a much better work/life balance and our family is a stronger unit  than it was.

My son feels the same way (i.e. spending a lot more time at home with kids + family).   

The tradeoff was the remote learning.  His wife is a school teacher so they were okay from that perspective but they REALLY missed going to school with their classmates.   Fortunately they've been in-person this whole school year with the exception of 2 weeks.

 

[jhib]

Cool. Now may we consider the ten points made by these doctors?

Sure. But I didn't find those ten points to be very focused, so it makes them hard to talk about as a whole.  Any particular parts you find particularly compelling?

I see the one you did quote separately later in the thread was a portion of their comments on masks.  I think they completely discounted the effectiveness of masks (masks work) while overstating the physical and mental harms caused by wearing masks.

 

[jhib]

This is an interesting take. Still wearing the mask regularly - but, the longer we stay in these things, the more harm they seem to do.

What harm are masks doing? And why is wearing them longer causing more harm?

Mask wearing has become such a non-issue for me personally.  I've even come to appreciate how much warmer I feel with one on outside in the winter (I used to take it off on the way back to the car, but now usually wait until after I get in).

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Do you think they doctored the letter that they published?  Because the letter is subject of this thread.

The letter which amplifies the fringe views of a tiny minority of people…..

 

[Terminalxylem]

For those of you who believe the letter is valid, why do you think none of the signatories are infectious disease clinicians?

On cursory review, it looks like a bunch of surgeons and general practitioners, many of whom are retired. Do you believe they are most qualified to speak up about pandemic management?

 

[Manster]

First, let me state that Covid was awful and even though I am going to speak positive of the Covid lockdowns that does not mean that I think Covid was good.

The lockdowns are directly responsible for the remote working/schooling that was implemented in much of the country. In the fall of 2020 and in early 2021 there was a point that we were responsibly vacationing for a total of 6 out of 12 months. It was great.

This year, now that returned to normal, i still get the benefit of longer vacations. I can extend a vacation for my family by simply staying back at the hotel/cabin, etc and putting in 8 hours of work.

The lockdowns will benefit my kids further when they hit the workforce, by then more companies will have the awesome policy that my company currently implements.

I would argue with anyone that says that lockdowns were bad for our kids future, I see it as the largest positive change to society that we have had in the last 50+years.

Hmmm.....my family did not have the same positive experience during the lockdown.  My youngest son was in 2nd grade and remote learning was very hard on him, and my wife......most of the feedback I've gotten from folks with young children say the same thing.  My daughter who is now in Jr high deals with bullying daily.  There is a lack of staffing, and a lack of discipline......the school administration has told us they are "undoing" a lot of behaviors from the lockdown.......in other words, a lot of kids were left to their own devices with little structure.......it's a total #### show at my daughter's Jr high and we are currently looking to get her into a private school as it's heart breaking for us to see her self esteem crushed.

My wife had to stay home with our children and put her career on hold.  Not everyone can do remote work.

 

[Manster]

For those of you who believe the letter is valid, why do you think none of the signatories are infectious disease clinicians?

On cursory review, it looks like a bunch of surgeons and general practitioners, many of whom are retired. Do you believe they are most qualified to speak up about pandemic management?

This whole thing is ever evolving.....I don't think it's black and white.  I think the letter makes valid points pertaining to mental health. 

 

[dkp993]

My wife had to stay home with our children and put her career on hold.  Not everyone can do remote work.

To me this is THE single biggest factor.  I’m lucky enough to be able to have a stay at home wife and I don’t feel our 6 yr old daughter was really effected by the remote learning.  But most others don’t have that luxury.  I was raised by a single mother who worked 2/3 jobs at a time to keep food on the table.  School and after school care (on campus) was the only way this was possible.  I have no idea how similar families did it these past 2 yrs.  

 

[ekbeats]

Hmmm.....my family did not have the same positive experience during the lockdown.  My youngest son was in 2nd grade and remote learning was very hard on him, and my wife......most of the feedback I've gotten from folks with young children say the same thing.  My daughter who is now in Jr high deals with bullying daily.  There is a lack of staffing, and a lack of discipline......the school administration has told us they are "undoing" a lot of behaviors from the lockdown.......in other words, a lot of kids were left to their own devices with little structure.......it's a total #### show at my daughter's Jr high and we are currently looking to get her into a private school as it's heart breaking for us to see her self esteem crushed.

My wife had to stay home with our children and put her career on hold.  Not everyone can do remote work.

Sorry to hear that Manster.  My sister is a high school teacher and she tells me all the time about how maladjusted and sad many of the kids are.  Good luck with your daughter.

 

[Terminalxylem]

This whole thing is ever evolving.....I don't think it's black and white.  I think the letter makes valid points pertaining to mental health. 

Of course things are in flux - but why would a retired surgeon have a better handle on the state of the science than a practicing infectious disease clinician, epidemiologist or public health official?

Would you trust a retired cardiologist to remove your gallbladder?

 

[Manster]

Of course things are in flux - but why would a retired surgeon have a better handle on the state of the science than a practicing infectious disease clinician, epidemiologist or public health official?

Would you trust a retired cardiologist to remove your gallbladder?

Im sure none of the experts are going to be quick to admit they were wrong, either

 

[timschochet]

There appear to be two types of people who are interested in this subject: 

1. Those who listen to the vast majority of scientists and form their opinions based on what the scientists say that the facts are. 
 

2. Those who form their opinions beforehand, usually linked to a political philosophy,  and then cherry pick to find a small minority of scientists who agree with their opinions. 
 

I stand with the first group. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

Im sure none of the experts are going to be quick to admit they were wrong, either

Of course there are egos involved, but that is true for any “expert”.

 

[KarmaPolice]

This whole thing is ever evolving.....I don't think it's black and white.  I think the letter makes valid points pertaining to mental health. 

I think a big problem is that we seem to be getting away from listening to specialists.    I would 100% be interested in hearing from psychologists what they encountered and dealt with during the last couple years.  Of course we should be talking about those things.    But I don't care what a retired surgeon says about the mental health of people over the last couple years.    Similarly - We should listen to the infectious disease experts about covid.    

That's why I think letters like this are a bit silly.   You can find doctors and scientists who believe all sorts of stuff, or would sign something like this because they have an axe to grind, maybe agree with some of it but not all, a bunch of different reasons.   But at the end of the day, should we give that much weight to the opinion of random people who don't specialize in this area?    

ETA:  I wanted to add that I am sorry to hear about the struggles you had with the kids.  The no school was a brutal year for my kids as well, so I can relate.   My daughter was at that kindergarten age so she really got behind on the basics.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Sorry, I didn't read term's posts before posting.   A bit of piling on the same idea.  

 

[Manster]

There appear to be two types of people who are interested in this subject: 

1. Those who listen to the vast majority of scientists and form their opinions based on what the scientists say that the facts are. 
 

2. Those who form their opinions beforehand, usually linked to a political philosophy,  and then cherry pick to find a small minority of scientists who agree with their opinions. 
 

I stand with the first group. 

But this isn't an "either/or" kind of thing.  Shutdowns were to keep our hospitals from being over run......we kept that from happening. 

In my state we have a governor who was overly cautious, and made many decisions that seemed to lack common sense......guided by OHA, of course.

It doesn't take an "expert" to see the mental health fallout, especially for children.   That's all I'm saying.....yet it feels like many leftists I personally know are really holding onto the vid pandemic like they want it to continue on this way forever......time to get back to normal.

 

[Shula-holic]

Hmmm.....my family did not have the same positive experience during the lockdown.  My youngest son was in 2nd grade and remote learning was very hard on him, and my wife......most of the feedback I've gotten from folks with young children say the same thing.  My daughter who is now in Jr high deals with bullying daily.  There is a lack of staffing, and a lack of discipline......the school administration has told us they are "undoing" a lot of behaviors from the lockdown.......in other words, a lot of kids were left to their own devices with little structure.......it's a total #### show at my daughter's Jr high and we are currently looking to get her into a private school as it's heart breaking for us to see her self esteem crushed.

My wife had to stay home with our children and put her career on hold.  Not everyone can do remote work.

Sorry to hear this man.  Our oldest daughter was in 4th grade when this all started and had an awful time with it.  My kindergarten daughter did just fine from home.  Luckily for us, our schools started back fairly early last year and their school has gone all year this year and haven't had any masks.  My wife's district did have masks for awhile as they had a pretty good outbreak earlier in the year.  They've had kids with a lot of issues, just not behaving, getting back used to the structure.  Let's face it, not all parents are good parents, or even if they are they simply don't have the time to be home schooling parents if it's a two income family.

I am in the camp the experts gave the best advice they could based on what they knew, when they knew it.  But as someone stated earlier about trusting someone from a different field, it's the same when it comes to economic or mental health issues.  We can have experts in each area, but how to value and weigh the concerns against one another for a comprehensive policy was sorely lacking during this.  There's been a lot of damage done to our kids, mentally, emotionally, and academically during all this.  We have a long way to go to try and recover.

 

[ekbeats]

There appear to be two types of people who are interested in this subject: 

1. Those who listen to the vast majority of scientists and form their opinions based on what the scientists say that the facts are. 
 

2. Those who form their opinions beforehand, usually linked to a political philosophy,  and then cherry pick to find a small minority of scientists who agree with their opinions. 
 

I stand with the first group. 

3. Those that recognize that this isn’t a black and white issue; that many experts were wrong along the way; that our leaders don’t always tell us the truth; and are therefor willing to hear alternative views.

 

[ekbeats]

Sorry to hear this man.  Our oldest daughter was in 4th grade when this all started and had an awful time with it.  My kindergarten daughter did just fine from home.  Luckily for us, our schools started back fairly early last year and their school has gone all year this year and haven't had any masks.  My wife's district did have masks for awhile as they had a pretty good outbreak earlier in the year.  They've had kids with a lot of issues, just not behaving, getting back used to the structure.  Let's face it, not all parents are good parents, or even if they are they simply don't have the time to be home schooling parents if it's a two income family.

I am in the camp the experts gave the best advice they could based on what they knew, when they knew it.  But as someone stated earlier about trusting someone from a different field, it's the same when it comes to economic or mental health issues.  We can have experts in each area, but how to value and weigh the concerns against one another for a comprehensive policy was sorely lacking during this.  There's been a lot of damage done to our kids, mentally, emotionally, and academically during all this.  We have a long way to go to try and recover.

Exactly.  I’m in the risk management business and I say this all the time - America does a terrible job managing multiple risks at once. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

3. Those that recognize that this isn’t a black and white issue; that many experts were wrong along the way; that our leaders don’t always tell us the truth; and are therefor willing to hear alternative views.

i think most in here are willing to hear alternative views.   The pod I suggested had a great way to put it, in that we shouldn't get away from the core principle that overall the experts in the field should still take up the most of our attention.   Anybody can offer up an opinion, and yes scientists are wrong and disagree with each other that is part of science.   But we still need to go back to testing those ideas using our usual methods.   

 

[joffer]

Yep.  Nothing more to say.  130 out of 300,000.  Compelling!! 

reminds me of Project Steve

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve

 

[Terminalxylem]

But this isn't an "either/or" kind of thing.  Shutdowns were to keep our hospitals from being over run......we kept that from happening. 

In my state we have a governor who was overly cautious, and made many decisions that seemed to lack common sense......guided by OHA, of course.

It doesn't take an "expert" to see the mental health fallout, especially for children.   That's all I'm saying.....yet it feels like many leftists I personally know are really holding onto the vid pandemic like they want it to continue on this way forever......time to get back to normal.

Not sure what qualifies as a “leftist”, but your feeling isn’t accurate for me or any of my liberal friends. TBH, I can’t imagine anyone wants the pandemic prolonged. But some of us want a more objective endpoint than throwing our hands up in frustration, and arbitrarily declaring a return to normalcy.

As an aside, we didn’t keep many of our hospitals from being overrun, as evidenced by higher mortality rates in hard hit regions.

 

[ekbeats]

i think most in here are willing to hear alternative views.   The pod I suggested had a great way to put it, in that we shouldn't get away from the core principle that overall the experts in the field should still take up the most of our attention.   Anybody can offer up an opinion, and yes scientists are wrong and disagree with each other that is part of science.   But we still need to go back to testing those ideas using our usual methods.   

I agree.  But the know-it-alls in Media and Higher Education have been acting horribly the last few years with all the intolerance of alternative views, the shutting down of ideas and opinions they deem as "misinformation".  The one thing you will always hear me being consistent on in here is my commitment to free speech.  It's why I was a Liberal in the 80's when the Religious Right was burning albums and being intolerant about alternative views and lifestyles.  Today it's the Left that is shutting down speech and being intolerant.  So I tend to react pretty strongly when I see anything resembling that in this forum.  Argue the merits of a position.  Don't shut it down as "misinformation" and try to cancel the person.  And don't dismiss a topic because a letter - whose authenticity has never been challenged by anyone - has been published by a media outlet that partisan fact checkers have labelled as non-credible.  It's just another cowardly way of shutting speech, and it does nothing to advance the dialogue in here.  I guess that's the only point I am trying to make in this topic. 

 

[Alex P Keaton]

reminds me of Project Steve

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Steve

This is fantastic!!!  Never heard of this before!

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

3. Those that recognize that this isn’t a black and white issue; that many experts were wrong along the way; that our leaders don’t always tell us the truth; and are therefor willing to hear alternative views.

4. those with similar opinions as group 3 but don't believe idle chatter in a Joe Rogan podcast or a political forum of a fantasy football website isn't a venue in which consequential discourse is likely to happen.

 

[jhib]

For those of you who believe the letter is valid, why do you think none of the signatories are infectious disease clinicians?

On cursory review, it looks like a bunch of surgeons and general practitioners, many of whom are retired. Do you believe they are most qualified to speak up about pandemic management?

How about a retired doctor (Elizabeth Evans) who then trained as Nambudripad’s Allergy Elimination Technique and Mitochondrial Rescue practitioner and spends much of her time fighting against smart meters and other wifi and cellular technologies? 

 

[ekbeats]

I feel fairly confident that history will not view favorably the way we treated children during this pandemic, and that is one of the main points of the letter.  We will be dealing with behaviorally issues for years to come, not to mention millions of kids falling behind in their education.  I understand shutting down the schools early on, but there are still teachers today that want to stay remote and not have the mask mandates lifted.  Where is the science supporting the continued masking of kids today?  There have only been 940 children in the US aged 0-18 that have died from Covid in two years.  And most of them had other medical issues going on.  More kids died from suicide.  More kids died from drug overdoses.  We need to bring some normalcy back into their worlds right now.  And more studies should be done to assess the damage that's been done to them.

 

[AAABatteries]

First, let me state that Covid was awful and even though I am going to speak positive of the Covid lockdowns that does not mean that I think Covid was good.

The lockdowns are directly responsible for the remote working/schooling that was implemented in much of the country. In the fall of 2020 and in early 2021 there was a point that we were responsibly vacationing for a total of 6 out of 12 months. It was great.

This year, now that returned to normal, i still get the benefit of longer vacations. I can extend a vacation for my family by simply staying back at the hotel/cabin, etc and putting in 8 hours of work.

The lockdowns will benefit my kids further when they hit the workforce, by then more companies will have the awesome policy that my company currently implements.

I would argue with anyone that says that lockdowns were bad for our kids future, I see it as the largest positive change to society that we have had in the last 50+years.

I almost totally agree with you.  I haven’t really wanted to have this discussion because we were and are still in the midst of things but while some aspects of Covid have sucked it has allowed me to WFH full time; be with and see my family more and has made me a better parent.  I’m able to drive my kids to school, eat lunch with or have adult time with my wife during my lunch break.  I eliminated my long commute so I have more time and I’m less stressed.  It’s even been a positive for our dogs as they get walked more, played with more and get to go outside more.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I agree.  But the know-it-alls in Media and Higher Education have been acting horribly the last few years with all the intolerance of alternative views, the shutting down of ideas and opinions they deem as "misinformation".  The one thing you will always hear me being consistent on in here is my commitment to free speech.  It's why I was a Liberal in the 80's when the Religious Right was burning albums and being intolerant about alternative views and lifestyles.  Today it's the Left that is shutting down speech and being intolerant.  So I tend to react pretty strongly when I see anything resembling that in this forum.  Argue the merits of a position.  Don't shut it down as "misinformation" and try to cancel the person.  And don't dismiss a topic because a letter - whose authenticity has never been challenged by anyone - has been published by a media outlet that partisan fact checkers have labelled as non-credible.  It's just another cowardly way of shutting speech, and it does nothing to advance the dialogue in here.  I guess that's the only point I am trying to make in this topic. 

It's been a crap couple years and people are just done with each other it seems.    

I keep mentioning the pod because I thought they had a good ways to frame what's going on.  They brought up a scenario like NASA vs. backyard astronomers.   There have been examples of a backyard astronomer making a discovery or finding an error in the science from NASA or phds.   This is a feature of science, but it also should be verified and run through the same processes we trust 99% of the time.   Because these discoveries or mistakes happen, that doesn't mean we only listen to the backyard astronomers.   

IMO usually the people that get the most crap around here like LawFitz et al, it's because they seem to be only searching for the equivalent of those backyard astronomer's views about the pandemic.   I don't see a complete intolerance of alternative views - we've talked about alternative meds, efficacy of the vaccines, pro/cons of these various shutdowns and masks.   Like I joked in the first sentence, people are just done with the barrage of links to backyard astronomers, and I get that sentiment.  I think that is so also mostly where the fight over "misinformation" stems from - overuse of those type of people, or continual circling back to things that have already been discussed, tested, and shown not to be as effective.  

On top of just the science of it, we add in political leanings and tensions ramp up even more.  

 

[James Daulton]

I feel fairly confident that history will not view favorably the way we treated children during this pandemic, and that is one of the main points of the letter.  We will be dealing with behaviorally issues for years to come, not to mention millions of kids falling behind in their education.  I understand shutting down the schools early on, but there are still teachers today that want to stay remote and not have the mask mandates lifted.  Where is the science supporting the continued masking of kids today?  There have only been 940 children in the US aged 0-18 that have died from Covid in two years.  And most of them had other medical issues going on.  More kids died from suicide.  More kids died from drug overdoses.  We need to bring some normalcy back into their worlds right now.  And more studies should be done to assess the damage that's been done to them.

Children are amazingly resilient and seem to be able to handle change just fine.

I haven't heard of any children raising a stink or protesting masks.  It's always the parents.  The folks with young kids say their kids don't even notice they're wearing masks.  I'm sure it's quite frequent in Asian countries, and their kids seem to turn out just fine.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I feel fairly confident that history will not view favorably the way we treated children during this pandemic, and that is one of the main points of the letter.  We will be dealing with behaviorally issues for years to come, not to mention millions of kids falling behind in their education.  I understand shutting down the schools early on, but there are still teachers today that want to stay remote and not have the mask mandates lifted.  Where is the science supporting the continued masking of kids today?  There have only been 940 children in the US aged 0-18 that have died from Covid in two years.  And most of them had other medical issues going on.  More kids died from suicide.  More kids died from drug overdoses.  We need to bring some normalcy back into their worlds right now.  And more studies should be done to assess the damage that's been done to them.

I agree here, and we seemed to latch on to the same part of the letter.   I have said that I think the most harmful thing we did was close schools and after the vaccinations were OKd for kids we should have let the mask mandates go too (i could be convinced maybe it would still be warranted in the case of a long assembly in the gym or crowded indoor games).  

One thing that makes me nervous about the next time is that it seems that many still don't seem to understand the basic science of the virus and vaccines in general.  That was a huge whiff on the part of our information pipelines.   Where I am going with that is we are going to debate and argue about what we did wrong here, but if we don't understand how the next virus could be different we are going to fall into the same traps.   

 

[KarmaPolice]

Children are amazingly resilient and seem to be able to handle change just fine.

I haven't heard of any children raising a stink or protesting masks.  It's always the parents.  The folks with young kids say their kids don't even notice they're wearing masks.  I'm sure it's quite frequent in Asian countries, and their kids seem to turn out just fine.

Sure, my 6yo might say something like that, but she also probably doesn't know better.    I think seeing faces, seeing what to do with your mouth as you learn words, etc, is very important in young kids.   I have read a few articles suggesting a downtick in development with those things in kids from the last couple years.   We need to listen to educators about that and weigh that info.    Plus, how well are these really young kids even keeping them on their faces?  I would guess that it's a constant struggle and another distraction for them and teachers, but I also haven't asked many teachers.  

I think the remote learning was far more damaging than the masks, to be clear.  But I also think the use of masks with that age group now is a bit silly now that we have vaccines in our arsenal.  

 

[ekbeats]

Children are amazingly resilient and seem to be able to handle change just fine.

I haven't heard of any children raising a stink or protesting masks.  It's always the parents.  The folks with young kids say their kids don't even notice they're wearing masks.  I'm sure it's quite frequent in Asian countries, and their kids seem to turn out just fine.

https://youtu.be/6XolvjPPLsI

 

[FairWarning]

I agree here, and we seemed to latch on to the same part of the letter.   I have said that I think the most harmful thing we did was close schools and after the vaccinations were OKd for kids we should have let the mask mandates go too (i could be convinced maybe it would still be warranted in the case of a long assembly in the gym or crowded indoor games).  

One thing that makes me nervous about the next time is that it seems that many still don't seem to understand the basic science of the virus and vaccines in general.  That was a huge whiff on the part of our information pipelines.   Where I am going with that is we are going to debate and argue about what we did wrong here, but if we don't understand how the next virus could be different we are going to fall into the same traps.   

I agree with the basic premise here.  The bad optics are the people we trust to lead are doing the very opposite of what we are supposed to do.  

 

[Sabertooth]

But this isn't an "either/or" kind of thing.  Shutdowns were to keep our hospitals from being over run......we kept that from happening. 

In my state we have a governor who was overly cautious, and made many decisions that seemed to lack common sense......guided by OHA, of course.

It doesn't take an "expert" to see the mental health fallout, especially for children.   That's all I'm saying.....yet it feels like many leftists I personally know are really holding onto the vid pandemic like they want it to continue on this way forever......time to get back to normal.

Weird, I don't know a single person on the left or right who doesn't want to get back to normal.  Have you asked the "leftists" you know if they want it to continue?  See I feel that way about "rightists" and their vaccine refusal.  They simply want it to last longer.   Most of the right wing business owners I know got way more COVID money than anyone else.  Way more.  Millions more.  

 

[James Daulton]

Sure, my 6yo might say something like that, but she also probably doesn't know better.    I think seeing faces, seeing what to do with your mouth as you learn words, etc, is very important in young kids.   I have read a few articles suggesting a downtick in development with those things in kids from the last couple years.   We need to listen to educators about that and weigh that info.    Plus, how well are these really young kids even keeping them on their faces?  I would guess that it's a constant struggle and another distraction for them and teachers, but I also haven't asked many teachers.  

I think the remote learning was far more damaging than the masks, to be clear.  But I also think the use of masks with that age group now is a bit silly now that we have vaccines in our arsenal.  

Oh I'm not saying that we need masks now, just that masking up the kids in school for a short time won't do a lot of harm to kids who are resilient.  I certainly agree that we should drop masks as soon as the science points in that direction.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I agree with the basic premise here.  The bad optics are the people we trust to lead are doing the very opposite of what we are supposed to do.  

What are examples of what you are saying here?  

 

[FairWarning]

What are examples of what you are saying here?  

The numerous examples of Whitmer, Abrams, Lightfoot,  the LA Mayor, the Cal governor and others who don’t wear masks but tell everyone  else they have to.  

 

[FairWarning]

The crowd at the Oscars have to wear masks but the participants don’t.  Do you see the disconnect here?  

 

[James Daulton]

The crowd at the Oscars have to wear masks but the participants don’t.  Do you see the disconnect here?  

Just think of having to wear masks when walking into a restaurant, the servers and staff wear masks, but the folks eating don't.

It's nuts.

 

[FairWarning]

Oh I'm not saying that we need masks now, just that masking up the kids in school for a short time won't do a lot of harm to kids who are resilient.  I certainly agree that we should drop masks as soon as the science points in that direction.

It’s down in every state now.  It’s not about science anymore, it’s about the blue team trying to get re-elected. 

 

[FairWarning]

Just think of having to wear masks when walking into a restaurant, the servers and staff wear masks, but the folks eating don't.

It's nuts.

We had weddings where the parents of the bride and groom required us to wear them while their 300 guests didn’t.  

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

Hmmm.....my family did not have the same positive experience during the lockdown.  My youngest son was in 2nd grade and remote learning was very hard on him, and my wife......most of the feedback I've gotten from folks with young children say the same thing.  My daughter who is now in Jr high deals with bullying daily.  There is a lack of staffing, and a lack of discipline......the school administration has told us they are "undoing" a lot of behaviors from the lockdown.......in other words, a lot of kids were left to their own devices with little structure.......it's a total #### show at my daughter's Jr high and we are currently looking to get her into a private school as it's heart breaking for us to see her self esteem crushed.

My wife had to stay home with our children and put her career on hold.  Not everyone can do remote work.

Yeah my kids had big problems with remote learning and the on again off again in person learning.  Keeping them focused was a daily battle.   They went to a high school that serves a majority of poor or lower middle class children.   Complete chaos coming back to school and the administration, arguably rightfully, focusing on that let a bunch of crap go on to the point we moved our last daughter who is a junior in high school out of the school.   My daughter was bullied entire first semester this year and no one did crap about it.  My impression was the administration felt a kid with good grades and two parents that care didn't deserve their attention and they had to cater to the bullies families to keep them in school.   

 

[KarmaPolice]

The numerous examples of Whitmer, Abrams, Lightfoot,  the LA Mayor, the Cal governor and others who don’t wear masks but tell everyone  else they have to.  

The crowd at the Oscars have to wear masks but the participants don’t.  Do you see the disconnect here?  

Thanks for clarifying.   I get the feeling here that just about everybody is on the same page in these threads with the mask thing.  I agree - there has been some silly stuff with them.  

What I find more dangerous though is that I feel like there are people that point to stuff like that, and then assume they are also wrong about vaccines and other things.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

We had weddings where the parents of the bride and groom required us to wear them while their 300 guests didn’t.  

  Could you unpack this a little?     Are you saying that the wedding party had to mask up but the guests didn't?    Did anybody attempt to explain their thinking? 

 

[FairWarning]

Thanks for clarifying.   I get the feeling here that just about everybody is on the same page in these threads with the mask thing.  I agree - there has been some silly stuff with them.  

What I find more dangerous though is that I feel like there are people that point to stuff like that, and then assume they are also wrong about vaccines and other things.  

I’m sure there is some of that also.  It’s just funny watching Biden digging his heels in more on the subject when cities are loosening mandates.