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***Official Joe Biden Campaign Thread (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
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sho nuff
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
I'm not sure that's true. Seem to be plenty trying to tear down others and their supporters. If they don't want infighting they have a funny way of showing it especially since those making the claim tend to be the ones complaining about infighting.timschochet said:
NCCommish
Footballguy
Right pretend Biden didn't fundraise with GOP donors and union busters day one. Pretend that while the Democrats were fighting for Congress he didn't sell out to kiss the butt of a GOP candidate in Michigan. I mean 150 k is 150 k right? Pretend he wouldn't have sold us out for TPP. He made it clear he would. Pretend he won't continue the crisis creating wars as he is just as much in the pocket of the Saudis. Pretend he won't continue the entire litany of neoliberal policies that helped give rise to Trump.
I dont know what it's going to take for people to get it. Oh I just want calm. Great pretty words and a slower but inexonerable move to the right because it's at least calm.
Call me extreme if that makes you feel better. But I'm not an extremist. I can see what is right in front of me and I don't refuse to acknowledge it.
I'm calling it now. If Biden is the nominee the Democrats lose another close election. If he is the nominee I hope I'm wrong. But I'm afraid I will be right.
I dont know what it's going to take for people to get it. Oh I just want calm. Great pretty words and a slower but inexonerable move to the right because it's at least calm.
Call me extreme if that makes you feel better. But I'm not an extremist. I can see what is right in front of me and I don't refuse to acknowledge it.
I'm calling it now. If Biden is the nominee the Democrats lose another close election. If he is the nominee I hope I'm wrong. But I'm afraid I will be right.
krista4
Footballguy
You don't seem to hope to be wrong, or afraid you'll be right, when you also say you don't know if you'd vote for him.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The fact that multiple posters have now completely ducked my actual arguments about why Biden would be much much better than Trump, and pivoted instead to broad attacks on various Biden flaws (which I mostly acknowledge- in fact I think you guys have left a couple on the table!) is pretty convincing evidence that Biden would be much much better than Trump IMO.
Although hopefully most people didn't need convincing in the first place.
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NCCommish
Footballguy
I do hope to be wrong. My one vote isn't going change anything either way. What I do represent is a certain segment of the electorate that Joe sure needs to work harder for because a few thousand votes here and there is all it takes. My fear is based on his disrespect for the economic situations so many younger voters find themselves in and his pandering to conservatives will make that a reality.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Its those flaws that will cost him a few thousand votes here and there that swing the EC. Which is still a thing.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I dont agree my friend. I think Bernie is free of that. He never needed their cash and he couldn't get it anyway. Pete is so new that maybe he isn't totally corrupted and would respond to pressure. Same for Kamala but maybe to a lesser degree. And to be clear they are both way "centrist " for my taste but I can at least hold out some hope.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
Really? I am an equal opportunity offender. I go after whoever I think is screwing up the letter behind the name means nothing to me. I dont play team politics. It's that looking at the issues that has led me to my conclusions.
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
And who voted for the guy who supposedly wan't a politician, but does all the things they hate about politics to an even greater scale. (lying, corruption, swampy stuff, etc.)
ren hoek
Footballguy
Tobias, I don't want incrementalism. If you prefer someone that's going to mildly quibble over a few details while the grand overarching policy continues unabated, and pretend it's "substantially better" than Trump when it isn't, go ahead.TobiasFunke said:You are dead wrong about the bolded. There would be one in how they would behave as president from 2021-2025 and what their presidencies would do to the government and the country. I explained some of the countless differences I perceive thoroughly. You didn't address any of it, other than being misleading at best about the family separation policy. You slammed Obamacare without acknowledging my actual argument which is that Trumpcare and his administration's attacks on protection for preexisting conditions would be infinitely worse. You ignored what I said about changing the makeup of the judiciary and all the horrors that could result from that. You apparently are unconcerned about his FBI pretending white nationalism isn't a problem, which is troubling to say the least. You apparently don't care about climate change, one of countless issues on which Biden and Trump are miles apart even if Biden's position is weaker than it should be. You apparently are not concerned about voter suppression. You apparently have no problem with Saudis and Russians and other violent dictators being allowed to murder and torture whoever they want without having to worry about diplomatic pushback from the artist formerly known as the most powerful country in the world. And of course you're unconcerned about foreigners committing crimes and attacking our elections without pushback from the federal government- at least you're consistent on that one!
And now you're shifting the debate from the initial one- whether a first Biden term would be substantially better than a second Trump term- to just attacking Biden without even comparing him to Trump. Which is particularly weird because I don't really care for him; in fact on this page of the thread in response to a post from you I said this:
This lame factcheck website basically repeats the talking point about it not being official policy of Obama admin to separate families, even though it happened thousands of times over. He deported over 2 million people, and tens of thousands of children were separated from their parents.
You keep attributing all these positions to me- that I don't care about white nationalism, don't care about voter suppression, no problem with the Saudi regime (then just casually toss in your own personal hysteria about Russia as if US relations between the two countries are even remotely the same thing). It's extremely disingenuous. Then you describe voters being informed of the truth as "foreigners committing crimes" and "attacking our elections". Get over it already. This is Neera Tanden levels of distortion.
I'm not choosing between Biden and Trump, just like I don't choose between bull#### and horse#### for breakfast. Biden is a perpetuation of the same broken system. He would not be substantially better than Trump, because virtually all of the policies would continue under him. I don't know how many different ways there is to explain it. It's pretty contemptible that people would invest in 'beating Trump' with Biden, when all of the same systemic problems will continue like before, just like the last time Biden had power.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I think the opposite. Biden beats Trump easily if he is the nominee. The others not so sure.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
No, it's not. It's the opposite of disingenuous. It is what you are saying when you claim there is little to no distinction between Trump and Obama or Biden or Clinton or whatever middle of the road democrat Glenn Greenwald and that youtube comedian are telling you to hate this week. Trump is miles apart from all of those people on white nationalism, voting rights, the environment, judicial nominations, separation of powers, treatment of refugees and asylum-seekers, and on and on and on. The differences are massive and well-documented, with support found not just in their rhetoric but also in their actions as legislators and members of the executive branch and even in the private sector. Any reasonable person on either side of the aisle who has even a passing familiarity with these people and where they stand and what they have done on various issues will acknowledge this.
So when you say that you don't see much difference between Trump and these people, or don't care much about those substantial differences, that is EXACTLY what you are saying. The conclusion is inescapable. Your reasons for not caring about those differences is a different discussion of course, and I'm happy to have that one if you want. But we can't talk about that, or anything, if you're gonna refuse to acknowledge this simple and inescapable fact: when two people are very different on Issue A, and you say you don't see or care about any differences between the two people, you are by extension saying that you don't know or care about Issue A.
If you can't acknowledge that, then nothing else you say matters because you're refusing to accept the basic rules of logic and reason and language.
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timschochet
Footballguy
I hope not to pretend on this one. My biggest disappointment with Hillary was when she came out against TPP for political expediency. I would like Biden to admit that he’s for TPP and explain why it would be good for this country. It’s not a difficult argument to make.
timschochet
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
I know it is. You like the corporatist agenda. We couldn't disagree more on this set of issues. Still people of good conscience can disagree without thinking ill of each other. You're still one of the boys as far as I'm concerned you're just monumentally wrong.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Not a big fan but will vote for any D nominee at this point.
Really just wanted to post that if he is the nominee a Joe vs. The Volcano would be a great campaign poster. I can see an orange Trump drinking an orange soda with lies and other despicable things spewing out of his head so clearly in my mind's eye.
Really just wanted to post that if he is the nominee a Joe vs. The Volcano would be a great campaign poster. I can see an orange Trump drinking an orange soda with lies and other despicable things spewing out of his head so clearly in my mind's eye.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Is he going to end the wars? Is he going to end the drug war? Is he going to choose people over banks and corporations? No? Then he can go lose to Trump.
You say he's opposed to Trump on white nationalism, and ignore his support for neonazis in Ukraine. You say he's miles apart on voting rights, and ignore how Dems still have superdelegates and did nothing about the voting system when they had power. You say he's better on the environment, even though fracking and oil drilling exploded under him. You say they were better about the executive branch, even though the Obama admin asserted authoritarian privileges for itself.
The proof is in the pudding and 2008-2016 sucked. It gave us Trump. No thanks
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
I don't agree with Tim very much but he is 100% correct on this. Run Biden Democrats have a shot, run Sanders and Trump is a shoe in for re-election.
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Never been the biggest fan of that word when it comes to the free movement of people and goods.
NCCommish
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
Polling says different. Both Biden and Sanders beat Trump. And if that early polling is good enough for the case for Biden then it's good enough for Bernie.
timschochet
Footballguy
So do I, actually.
There has to be a way to resolve these concerns yet still have as much free trade as possible. There’s a untapped marketplace in Asia, why should we let China have all of it?
NCCommish
Footballguy
Of course not. But at the same time we can't have corporations suing us over clean water regulations. How about we negotiate a treaty that isn't more secret than the launch codes for starters? More transparency would help.
timschochet
Footballguy
Very very difficult.
The reason these trade deals aren’t more transparent is that literally billions of dollars are made upon signature. And when you have multiple parties involved every slight change creates an economic ripple.
NCCommish
Footballguy
When congressmen have to go to a secure room to read the trade deal but they can't even take notes and they're time limited so that they can't read it all I dont trust that trade deal. Negotiate and then present it for everyone to see otherwise shenanigans are afoot.
ren hoek
Footballguy
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timschochet
Footballguy
Crud. Biden's going to run away with it.
Oh well. He's definitely got my vote in the general.
Oh well. He's definitely got my vote in the general.
ren hoek
Footballguy
You're saying MSNBC should be able to lie and misrepresent poll results so that they favor the candidate whom their executive just hosted a fundraiser for?
NCCommish
Footballguy
Really? This is your response? Maybe you should've looked into it. I did cause facts are how I roll. So seeing as how sometimes people post things poorly researched I downloaded the pdf for the entire poll. MSNBC did misstate the numbers. But really this poll is useless for minority voter non white support anyway. The margin of error is almost 10 percent in that category. In fact every part of the poll has a fairly high margin of error. I wouldn't put much stock in it at all.
So given that MSNBC did misstate have they issued a correction?
NCCommish
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
pollardsvision
Footballguy
This is such a fascinating race. It seems so many see Biden as the safe choice, but I don't think I agree.
I think the way Trump wins is with another low turnout, and I think Biden is the most likely Dem candidate to do that. You want voters to say to hell with it and go home to get dinner started after work instead of voting? Throw out another establishment Dem that sparks zero energy in the Party.
msommer
Footballguy
I think you're right. "Uncle Joe" couldn't inspire the young less if he tried. He's the kind of candidate people forget to go vote for (except when he's creepy or saying stupid stuff - which is when you remember you'd rather not vote for him)
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s early yet. We haven’t even had debates. Biden’s got some advantages, but he’s got some disadvantages as well. Yesterday Bernie offered a list of differences on issues he has with Biden. I quote from memory:
Joe voted for the Iraq war; I was opposed to it. Joe was for NAFTA, GATT, and TPP; I was opposed to them. Joe voted for deregulating Wall Street; I was against and I am convinced it led to the crash of 2008...
These are solid criticisms that many Democrats are going to find compelling. Biden has declined to respond but he will eventually have to. And then we’ll see.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t agree with you. What’s going to energize Democrats is getting rid of Trump. That’s a much stronger impetus this time around than resisting the establishment, IMO.
timschochet
Footballguy
I do agree with this. Turnout will be extremely high no matter who the Democratic candidate is.
NCCommish
Footballguy
And I'd say this kind of thinking costs you the EC by a few thousand votes. Again.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
NC could well be a battleground state this year. Try to imagine how you’ll feel if Trump is re-elected after winning it.NCCommish said:
NCCommish
Footballguy
Do you think he'll win by less than one vote? Seems doubtful. How about this. How will you feel if you elect another neoliberal corporate shill and that leads to something worse than Trump? You may say what's worse than Trump? A smart version of him.
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