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Joe Bryant

Official Joe Biden Campaign Thread - Was "Joe Biden - Not Appealing Enough To Democrats?"

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6 hours ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Hey @Joe Bryantwhat are your thoughts on making this a Joe Biden 2020 thread if/when he gets in? There's already some good commentary in it.

Because it looks like he's getting in.

Oh he’s definitley in. He was at the house he grew up in Scranton the other day filming something’s 

Today I watched a bit and he practically said it a few times.

Pretty torn on Joe. Ultimately want anyone who will win and I do think he would beat Trump. But man when he’s speaking there is always a moment every few minutes where he does or says something a little goofy. 

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1 minute ago, The General said:

Oh he’s definitley in. He was at the house he grew up in Scranton the other day filming something’s 

Today I watched a bit and he practically said it a few times.

Pretty torn on Joe. Ultimately want anyone who will win and I do think he would beat Trump. But man when he’s speaking there is always a moment every few minutes where he does or says something a little goofy. 

Stick a fork in him....he's done.

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Just now, John Blutarsky said:

I don't think he can get past this and his joking about it today didn't help.

If you are referring to this touching thing it’s kind of ridiculous IMO, but he handled it really well in this impromptu thing he did with the press today. Answered it well and unless there is a lot more it will be gone in short order I think. 

If you are talking just him being around forever and not being a “new thing”, perhaps. He has flashes when I see him speaking that are great. 

Thats what the nom process is for.

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1 hour ago, John Blutarsky said:

I don't think he can get past this and his joking about it today didn't help.

The issue is neutralized if he gets to the general and actually favors him vs Trump. Trump raising this, which he would and already has, only turns the light back on Trump. - It’s obviously a bad negative in a female heavy field in the primary, but then I seriously doubt any other primary candidate would use it against him.

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2 hours ago, John Blutarsky said:

I don't think he can get past this and his joking about it today didn't help.

People will forget about it by next month. His bigger issue is his age and representing old ideas. 

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2 minutes ago, TwinTurbo said:

People will forget about it by next month. His bigger issue is his age and representing old ideas. 

If he gets to a debate with other Democrats this will come up.

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6 minutes ago, John Blutarsky said:

If he gets to a debate with other Democrats this will come up.

If it is as we stand now, there is nothing more serious, perhaps in some tangent related to women’s issues but I don’t think a candidate will just come out with this. That is more Trump style seeing as he is a little infant. 

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2 minutes ago, The General said:

If it is as we stand now, there is nothing more serious, perhaps in some tangent related to women’s issues but I don’t think a candidate will just come out with this. That is more Trump style seeing as he is a little infant. 

I thought we were talking about Biden.

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15 minutes ago, TwinTurbo said:

People will forget about it by next month. His bigger issue is his age and representing old ideas. 

Also the fact that his two presidential runs were disasters and he hasn't faced a competitive election since 1972

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1 minute ago, zftcg said:

Also the fact that his two presidential runs were disasters and he hasn't faced a competitive election since 1972

If I had to bet I’d place my wager that his high point in the polls will be the day he announces. Downhill from there.

Edited by The General
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Just now, John Blutarsky said:

You brought up Trump. 

Yes? I believe it is relevant to the point you made about someone bringing up that Joe is touchy feely in a debate. I don’t see anyone doing this - except Donald. 

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2 minutes ago, The General said:

Yes? I believe it is relevant to the point you made about someone bringing up that Joe is touchy feely in a debate. I don’t see anyone doing this - except Donald. 

Al Franken

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Again this handsy thing isn't Joe's real woman problem. Anita Hill is and you can bet that's coming up. Also the terrible bankruptcy bill and his part in the crime bill that helped lead us to mass incarceration mostly of minority folks. All that is coming up. And none of it is a good look today. I agree with the General he'll get an announcement bump and it's all downhill from there.

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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

Again this handsy thing isn't Joe's real woman problem. Anita Hill is and you can bet that's coming up. Also the terrible bankruptcy bill and his part in the crime bill that helped lead us to mass incarceration mostly of minority folks. All that is coming up. And none of it is a good look today. I agree with the General he'll get an announcement bump and it's all downhill from there.

I know this is getting a little off topic, but can someone explain to me why Biden (and Hillary) get raked over the coals for the crime bill, but Bernie, who also voted for it, gets a pass? 

It has always seemed to me that the crime bill had some good provisions and some others that reflected a consensus that many liberals (myself included) now consider to be misguided. But it was very much a consensus. In addition to Bernie, pretty much the entire Congressional Black Caucus voted for it as well. If there were any prominent Democrats who presciently opposed it the way Obama did the Iraq War, I'm not aware of them.

It's like we can't just say, "Yeah, we were all wrong about that one." We need to find scapegoats to somehow expunge our own collective guilt.

Anyway, to me the bigger problem with Biden is not how he voted 25 years ago, but that the campaign will be fought over how he voted 25 years ago. We need to be talking about the future.

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8 hours ago, zftcg said:

I know this is getting a little off topic, but can someone explain to me why Biden (and Hillary) get raked over the coals for the crime bill, but Bernie, who also voted for it, gets a pass? 

It has always seemed to me that the crime bill had some good provisions and some others that reflected a consensus that many liberals (myself included) now consider to be misguided. But it was very much a consensus. In addition to Bernie, pretty much the entire Congressional Black Caucus voted for it as well. If there were any prominent Democrats who presciently opposed it the way Obama did the Iraq War, I'm not aware of them.

It's like we can't just say, "Yeah, we were all wrong about that one." We need to find scapegoats to somehow expunge our own collective guilt.

Anyway, to me the bigger problem with Biden is not how he voted 25 years ago, but that the campaign will be fought over how he voted 25 years ago. We need to be talking about the future.

Bernie made it clear that he was voting for it because it included the Violence Against Women Act and he questioned the tough on crime parts many times calling it a punishment bill not a crime prevention bill. So yes he voted for it but only because that's how we got the VAWA. He wasn't an active cheerleader talking about super predators. That's the difference. 

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1 hour ago, NCCommish said:

Bernie made it clear that he was voting for it because it included the Violence Against Women Act and he questioned the tough on crime parts many times calling it a punishment bill not a crime prevention bill. So yes he voted for it but only because that's how we got the VAWA. He wasn't an active cheerleader talking about super predators. That's the difference. 

Gee, I wonder who wrote the VAWA?

Also, I've always thought the "super predator" thing against Hillary was a bum rap. I'm not sure what constitutes "active cheerleading", but my memory is that she quoted a study by John DiIulio that was very much the conventional wisdom of the time. It turned it to be completely wrong, and if you want to ding her for that, fine, but I just think trying to draw these bright lines between who was right and wrong is a fools errand. Lots of people got things wrong, and lots of people (like Bernie) made compromises given what was politically possible, and lots of people (Biden) did both.

Anyway, I'd rather spend time discussing what to do next rather than relitigating a debate about who was wronger 25 years ago, which probably explains why I'm not excited by either Biden or Bernie. 

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27 minutes ago, zftcg said:

Gee, I wonder who wrote the VAWA?

Also, I've always thought the "super predator" thing against Hillary was a bum rap. I'm not sure what constitutes "active cheerleading", but my memory is that she quoted a study by John DiIulio that was very much the conventional wisdom of the time. It turned it to be completely wrong, and if you want to ding her for that, fine, but I just think trying to draw these bright lines between who was right and wrong is a fools errand. Lots of people got things wrong, and lots of people (like Bernie) made compromises given what was politically possible, and lots of people (Biden) did both.

Anyway, I'd rather spend time discussing what to do next rather than relitigating a debate about who was wronger 25 years ago, which probably explains why I'm not excited by either Biden or Bernie. 

You either run on your record or you run away from it

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

NC will you vote for Biden if he is the candidate? 

Let's see if he even makes it through the primaries before we worry about that because I certainly won't vote for him in the primaries I will say that

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I certainly will vote for him in the primaries. 

A moderate is what this country desperately needs. 

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I will vote for him in the General.  I will not vote for him in the primary.  

 

He won't make it to the General.

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3 hours ago, NCCommish said:

You either run on your record or you run away from it

So which is Bernie doing with respect to the crime bill?

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6 minutes ago, zftcg said:

So which is Bernie doing with respect to the crime bill?

He was clear at the time about why he voted for it and he noted that he didn't like a lot of the rest of it. So I guess running on being on the right side of history, again.

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48 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

He was clear at the time about why he voted for it and he noted that he didn't like a lot of the rest of it. So I guess running on being on the right side of history, again.

I don't know, saying "I voted for it but was actually opposed to it" sounds a lot like running away from your record. If it was really that awful, maybe he shouldn't have voted for it? By contrast, if the good parts made it worth supporting, then what are we ripping Biden for? 

Also, I don't know exactly what Biden will say about the bill now, but I suspect it will be something like "It wasn't perfect, but I'm proud of writing the VAWA and would do it again," which sounds a lot like running on his record.

For the record, I have no problem with what Bernie did. Voting for an imperfect bill because you believe on balance it's a net positive is what politicians should do. And saying that in hindsight, you underestimated the bad parts is what humans should do. I just find this myth of The Incorruptible Bernie to be a total crock.

Edited by zftcg

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20 minutes ago, zftcg said:

I don't know, saying "I voted for it but was actually opposed to it" sounds a lot like running away from your record. If it was really that awful, maybe he shouldn't have voted for it? By contrast, if the good parts made it worth supporting, then what are we ripping Biden for? 

Also, I don't know exactly what Biden will say about the bill now, but I suspect it will be something like "It wasn't perfect, but I'm proud of writing the VAWA and would do it again," which sounds a lot like running on his record.

For the record, I have no problem with what Bernie did. Voting for an imperfect bill because you believe on balance it's a net positive is what politicians should do. And saying that in hindsight, you underestimated the bad parts is what humans should do. I just find this myth of The Incorruptible Bernie to be a total crock.

Yeah I understand you think think you've got a gotcha here but you don't. Bernie made it clear and I'm guessing if I went through speeches from other people they made it clear as well they did not like this bill yet they didn't want to vote against the VAWA once it was tacked on. And while Biden might have been a big part of the VAWA he also ran the Anita Hill hearings which is going to be a much bigger problem for him and he has never apologized to Anita Hill ever.

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And just to add people can think whatever they want about how corruptible or not Bernie Sanders is but here's what I know, there's been one guy his entire political career talking about the same things. From the environment, to economic justice, to equality of the races, to protecting the rights of homosexuals in the military and to marry.  There's one guy that hasn't taken money from credit card companies and pharmaceutical companies and Boeing and all these other people who own our government today. So he's not perfect. I don't support every policy he supports but you know what he's a damn sight better than the bought and sold corrupt politicians we've been dealing with for to long.

Edited by NCCommish
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14 minutes ago, NCCommish said:

And just to add people can think whatever they want about how corruptible or not Bernie Sanders is but here's what I know, there's been one guy his entire political career talking about the same things. From the environment, to economic justice, to equality of the races, to protecting the rights of homosexuals in the military and to marry.  There's one guy that hasn't taken money from credit card companies and pharmaceutical companies and Boeing and all these other people who own our government today. So he's not perfect. I don't support every policy he supports but you know what he's a damn sight better than the bought and sold corrupt politicians we've been dealing with for to long.

I don’t think he’s corruptible at all. I think he’s a good guy, a classy guy, and while I disagree with him on several issues which will prevent me from voting for him in the primaries, I believe he’d make an excellent President and I’d be proud to vote for him in the general election. 

That being said, he won’t be the nominee for the same reason as last time: he can’t get enough votes from the older black people who control the southern primaries and caucuses. 

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1 hour ago, timschochet said:

I don’t think he’s corruptible at all. I think he’s a good guy, a classy guy, and while I disagree with him on several issues which will prevent me from voting for him in the primaries, I believe he’d make an excellent President and I’d be proud to vote for him in the general election. 

That being said, he won’t be the nominee for the same reason as last time: he can’t get enough votes from the older black people who control the southern primaries and caucuses. 

Those votes are getting split this time. And he does win young black voters. The more the merrier in the early primary states.

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19 hours ago, TwinTurbo said:

People will forget about it by next month. His bigger issue is his age and representing old ideas. 

I think his biggest issue is not being far enough left for the progressives.

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Like I said, no more old white guys. 

Many have an issue with improperly touching women. We don't need that stuff.

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3 hours ago, stlrams said:

I think his biggest issue is not being far enough left for the progressives.

The most “progressive” demographics don’t vote in large numbers.  If Biden runs, he has a good shot at winning the nomination.

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3 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Like I said, no more old white guys. 

Many have an issue with improperly touching women. We don't need that stuff.

Biden has plenty of things working against him (like every candidate really) but this touching thing as it has been revealed so far isn't one of them IMO. I find Biden a little weird, the huggy stuff adds to it, but it's certainly not some disqualifying thing unless there's a lot more to it.

That he's old and white also shouldn't matter.

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3 hours ago, The Z Machine said:

Like I said, no more old white guys. 

Many have an issue with improperly touching women. We don't need that stuff.

Gee - I object to the broad statement many old white guys have an issue with touching comment.  Suggest dialing it back..  how about picking the best person rather than someone nonwhite..

Edited by stlrams

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15 minutes ago, jonessed said:

The most “progressive” demographics don’t vote in large numbers.  If Biden runs, he has a good shot at winning the nomination.

No he has a good chance to do what he did the last 2 times. Just fade out as his poll numbers slip and the cash goes elsewhere. And you can bet on one thing. The progressive wing is coming out in force. Bernie has 1 million volunteers already. The left is fired up. It's where all the energy is.

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Just now, NCCommish said:

No he has a good chance to do what he did the last 2 times. Just fade out as his poll numbers slip and the cash goes elsewhere. And you can bet on one thing. The progressive wing is coming out in force. Bernie has 1 million volunteers already. The left is fired up. It's where all the energy is.

I know... this time it’s going to be different.

That energized youth vote just never materializes

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1 minute ago, jonessed said:

I know... this time it’s going to be different.

That energized youth vote just never materializes

I disagree.  Trump has lit a fire under the left.  They will come out in force which is why I feel trump has a low chance of reelection.

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Just now, jonessed said:

I know... this time it’s going to be different.

That energized youth vote just never materializes

Except they did in 2018. In fact the 18-29 demographic turned out at historic levels. I expect more of the same with new voters adding to the numbers in 2020.

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10 hours ago, NCCommish said:

Let's see if he even makes it through the primaries before we worry about that because I certainly won't vote for him in the primaries I will say that

X2 and after the new alleged reports about him I would note vote for him if he is the nominee 

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6 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

X2 and after the new alleged reports about him I would note vote for him if he is the nominee 

Are you a Trump guy?

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On 4/6/2019 at 2:44 PM, NCCommish said:

Yeah I understand you think think you've got a gotcha here but you don't. Bernie made it clear and I'm guessing if I went through speeches from other people they made it clear as well they did not like this bill yet they didn't want to vote against the VAWA once it was tacked on. And while Biden might have been a big part of the VAWA he also ran the Anita Hill hearings which is going to be a much bigger problem for him and he has never apologized to Anita Hill ever.

Wasn't trying to play gotcha. I don't hate Bernie -- I think that, like pretty much all the 2020 candidates, he has his strengths and his weaknesses. And I think my posts in this thread have made clear I'm not a huge Biden fan either, at least not in terms of 2020. What I was getting at with the "Incorruptible Bernie" stuff was that there's an undertone, sometimes from his supporters and sometimes from Bernie himself, that because he's so principled, and his character so above reproach, the typical rules don't apply to him. The crime bill is a perfect example. When other politicians vote for a bill that has bad elements in it, it's because they're corporatist sell-outs. But with Bernie, he only did it because of the VAWA, so therefore he can't be blamed for any of the bad things despite the fact that he voted for them. And while I suspect the tax-return issue will eventually amount to nothing, I don't like the intimations I've heard that since Bernie isn't rich and is obviously not corrupt, it's not as important for him to release his returns. None of this makes him a bad guy; it's just one aspect of him that I find unappealing. Anyway, that's probably enough Bernie talk for a thread about Biden.

Back to Anita Hill for a second. I'm definitely not defending Joe on that one, but I actually think there is a parallel with the current dust-up over his handsiness. With the latter, some people think it's about sexual harassment or assault, but the real issue is a man who invades women's personal space and doesn't seem to realize why that bothers them. With Hill, I don't think Biden was a flaming misogynist who was determined to sink her; I just think his natural instincts (whether generational, because of his upbringing, or whatever) were to offer a certain level of protection to Thomas. And as with the handsiness, his comments after the fact indicate that he still doesn't really get what he did wrong. Again, that doesn't make him a bad person, but it also doesn't make him someone I want in charge of my party, or leading this country into the future.

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Has time repaired his plagiarism vulnerability?  Frankly I do not recall anymore the specifics of it.  Something in law school and maybe again on the campaign trail. 

As for his most recent stuff, he made a few women uncomfortable, is that right?  He did not assault them criminally, he did not engage in conduct that is civilly cognizable, he made some uncomfortable because, well dude is awkward.   

Probably time for the Democrats to go forward into their future rather than backwards into their past with this guy, but that decision is for Democrats.  Backwards often seems the safe choice, name recognition is valuable and does draw early money, but the past tires us and the future intrigues us, its the same reason the unknown backup quarterback always seems to have support.

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36 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Has time repaired his plagiarism vulnerability?  Frankly I do not recall anymore the specifics of it.  Something in law school and maybe again on the campaign trail. 

The initial scandal was that he started off quoting a speech by British politician Neil Kinnock that gradually shifted to him incorporating Kinnock's words as if they had happened to him (as Malcolm Gladwell has shown, this is not that uncommon an occurrence). Later it came out that he had also committed plagiarism in law school.

In the age of Trump, it seems kind of amazing that it forced him from the race, but what's even more amazing is that it also led Michael Dukakis to fire his chief strategist simply for splicing together the video that showed Biden's plagiarism.

37 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Probably time for the Democrats to go forward into their future rather than backwards into their past with this guy

"We must move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!"

 

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16 minutes ago, zftcg said:

The initial scandal was that he started off quoting a speech by British politician Neil Kinnock that gradually shifted to him incorporating Kinnock's words as if they had happened to him (as Malcolm Gladwell has shown, this is not that uncommon an occurrence). Later it came out that he had also committed plagiarism in law school.

In the age of Trump, it seems kind of amazing that it forced him from the race, but what's even more amazing is that it also led Michael Dukakis to fire his chief strategist simply for splicing together the video that showed Biden's plagiarism.

"We must move forward, not backward; upward, not forward; and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom!"

 

The expectation bar has been lowered, in fact it may have actually been buried.

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54 minutes ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

The expectation bar has been lowered, in fact it may have actually been buried.

The thing is we on the left, and Democrats in general, I think tend to try to have a higher bar. Slowly Bill is being frozen out, seems a little late, and especially younger voters expect more. 

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