timschochet
Footballguy
He won’t lose black support.
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***Official Joe Biden Campaign Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Ida Bae Wells
@nhannahjones
Here’s the reveal: He talked about poverty, social workers needing to help families raise their kids and debunked science on vocab deficits. He assumed we’d all understand he meant black folks even without saying — as if black is synonymous with poverty/dysfunction.
@nhannahjones
Here’s the reveal: He talked about poverty, social workers needing to help families raise their kids and debunked science on vocab deficits. He assumed we’d all understand he meant black folks even without saying — as if black is synonymous with poverty/dysfunction.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Joe Biden Should Drop Out
Biden definitely not alienating black voters at all. This guy is the most electable one to take on Trump. Everything is fine.
Biden definitely not alienating black voters at all. This guy is the most electable one to take on Trump. Everything is fine.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
Obama picked this guy to be part of his cabinet. A racist drug warrior, who helped expand the carceral state. Biden might think he means well, but it's clear he's got some backwards views about minorities. It's a poor reflection on Obama.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
In 2008 there was significant doubt about whether a black guy could win the Presidency. Of course Obama didn’t pick Biden to help with black voters, he picked him to help with white voters.
ren hoek
Footballguy
The "words" comment appears to be reference to a much-disputed 1995 paper about poorer kids not hearing as many words as wealthy ones (a result which failed to be replicated in a recent study). The "record player" comment might be a reference to the goofy urban legend that playing Mozart while your baby is asleep will make them a Super Genius. It's a stupid argument, delivered in alarmingly incoherent syntax — and moreover, as Anand Giridharadas points out, given Biden's appalling record of teaming up with outright segregationists to roll back the Civil Rights Movement, the substance of his point here is extremely offensive.
Linsey then attempted to cut him off. But Biden plowed ahead, changing the subject randomly to … Venezuela and Nicolas Maduro?
No, I'm going to go like the rest of them do, twice over, okay? Because here's the deal. The deal is that we've got this a little backwards. And by the way, in Venezuela, we should be allowing people to come here from Venezuela. I know Maduro. I've confronted Maduro. No. 2, you talk about the need to do something in Latin America. I'm the guy that came up with $740 million to see to it those three countries, in fact, change their system so people don't have to chance to leave. You're all acting like we just discovered this yesterday! [Slate]
What in God's name is he talking about? Who has what backwards? We've got to let Venezuelans come here and also spend some money to change those "three countries" so people "don't have to chance to leave"? What?
Anyway, centrist Democrats and Biden-friendly media elites like Joe Scarborough had an immediate hissy fit over Castro being a big meanie. That will probably keep anyone from pelting Biden with bottles of Ensure at the next Democratic debate. But as The Washington Post's Greg Sargent argues, the Trump campaign is not going to be so generous. On the contrary, they will level a "massive onslaught of absolutely brutal and distortive attacks" on Biden over this — likely including doctored video and audio.
Now, Trump would do duplicitous attacks on any opponent. But the effectiveness of agitprop depends in part on whether the target has an actual weakness — the best lies have a kernel of truth in them. And Biden quite clearly is massively vulnerable on whether he is mentally acute enough to be president. Journalists trying to paper over that fact are doing Democratic voters no favors.
Why is the media gaslighting everyone about Joe Biden?
Linsey then attempted to cut him off. But Biden plowed ahead, changing the subject randomly to … Venezuela and Nicolas Maduro?
No, I'm going to go like the rest of them do, twice over, okay? Because here's the deal. The deal is that we've got this a little backwards. And by the way, in Venezuela, we should be allowing people to come here from Venezuela. I know Maduro. I've confronted Maduro. No. 2, you talk about the need to do something in Latin America. I'm the guy that came up with $740 million to see to it those three countries, in fact, change their system so people don't have to chance to leave. You're all acting like we just discovered this yesterday! [Slate]
What in God's name is he talking about? Who has what backwards? We've got to let Venezuelans come here and also spend some money to change those "three countries" so people "don't have to chance to leave"? What?
Anyway, centrist Democrats and Biden-friendly media elites like Joe Scarborough had an immediate hissy fit over Castro being a big meanie. That will probably keep anyone from pelting Biden with bottles of Ensure at the next Democratic debate. But as The Washington Post's Greg Sargent argues, the Trump campaign is not going to be so generous. On the contrary, they will level a "massive onslaught of absolutely brutal and distortive attacks" on Biden over this — likely including doctored video and audio.
Now, Trump would do duplicitous attacks on any opponent. But the effectiveness of agitprop depends in part on whether the target has an actual weakness — the best lies have a kernel of truth in them. And Biden quite clearly is massively vulnerable on whether he is mentally acute enough to be president. Journalists trying to paper over that fact are doing Democratic voters no favors.
Why is the media gaslighting everyone about Joe Biden?
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Joe Biden is a terrible candidate. The Democrats need to select a more mainstream candidate who will address issues popular with black voters, such why the dictatorial government of Venezuela isn't really that bad, and why Bashar al Assad is sort of misunderstood when you stop and think about it. That's the platform that you beat Trump with.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Could have picked someone to shore up white voters that wasn't a racist drug warrior.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Sometimes it's funny how uninformed you are. You don't engage with the reality of sanctions killing an estimated 40K people since 2017 and making the problem worse, or the existence of Al Qaeda/ISIS in Syria because of the Gulf states and CIA- you just distort other people's views and spout off talking points.
timschochet
Footballguy
ren, you completely missed his point.
Surely you realize that your views are not popular? That doesn’t make you wrong, but it means that someone with your essential viewpoints is not going to win an election in this country. Not now.
Look, I have pretty extreme views about immigration. I want to give legal citizenship to everybody here who isn’t a criminal. I want to give access to this country to everybody around the world who isn’t a criminal or a health risk. I’m the definition of what conservatives call the “open borders” guy, even though that term is inaccurate. But I know someone running for office with my views on immigration has no shot at being elected. You need to realize it’s the same for many of your views.
ren hoek
Footballguy
The point is he misrepresented my views. The point isn't that Maduro or Assad are nice guys- I have never said anything at all like that. And yes, I think plenty of black voters oppose pointless wars of regime change for oil- unlike Ivan, they probably learned something from Iraq. Though his disingenuous framing of the issues makes it sound more unpalatable than it really is.timschochet said:
Stuart_Little
Footballguy
Wait, I'm confused...you say that like it's a bad thing, but it's won your undying loyalty for 2+ years now. Which is it?Ramblin Wreck said:
I mean, if Biden deserves to be condemned for giving a muddling answer on a controversial subject, does TalibanTrump's penchant for lies, lying about lies, and lying about anyone who won't lie with him on any subject no matter how trivial or grave mean his circle of hell is so deep that he flies straight through the center of the earth and into the sun?
Whoa.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t think candidates who accurately present your views on these issues would do well in elections, with black voters or white.
John Blutarsky
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
Well yeah, I accept that. But a big part of the reason those views aren't more popular is that they're deliberately hidden from people. You don't hear about the real history of Columbus in school or all the war crimes committed in Vietnam, our sponsorship and support of death squads in Latin America on TV. You don't really hear that Obama hired a Monsanto lobbyist to regulate food safety or bombed a Nobel peace prize winner. You just don't. We are culturally, civically, religiously wired not only to reject this portrait of the world, but to hate everything about it. We don't want to accept it, because sometimes the truth is too much to bear. But it's true.timschochet said:
If transnational corporations funded multi-billion dollar campaigns for campaigns that expressed those views, and actively tried to subvert campaigns that didn't, and all the money and power was concentrated behind those views rather than the ones that currently "win elections," those views would be overwhelmingly popular. They'd certainly produce better election turnouts than the ones we have now.
timschochet
Footballguy
Then start making those arguments. Tell us what Biden and the others are wrong about, and why they are wrong. I’m sure I’ll agree with you in some instances, disagree with you in many, and we and others can have discussions.
But stop with the claims that if we ditched Biden in favor of somebody like Tulsi Gabbard, we would have a much better shot at winning in 2020. Because you know that’s not so.
But stop with the claims that if we ditched Biden in favor of somebody like Tulsi Gabbard, we would have a much better shot at winning in 2020. Because you know that’s not so.
ren hoek
Footballguy
I believe Trump would absolutely steamroll Biden. And I really don't care for Tulsi, I just think her mild antiwar perspective is better than most of the field. I've already seen a fair amount of the people who identified as Trump voters say they would support Gabbard on this board- I'm sure there are many more like them.
ren hoek
Footballguy
@dwdavison
Left unsaid in the talk about Biden's mental acuity and concerns over whether or not he's actually up to the task of being president is the fact that he's got staff working for him who want to ride him into the White House and apparently don't care what happens after that.
As the reality, not the organized media gaslighting, of last night's debate sinks in, we'll probably get a new round of stories about how the campaign needs to relax Biden's schedule because he's wearing out.
What that means is that they *know* Biden is not capable of performing the responsibilities of the office (if he can't manage campaigning how on earth can he be president?), but they're trying to hide that fact from voters. It's incredibly cynical.
It's bad politics as well, because Trump is going to hammer this point over and over for months and it is absolutely going to eat into that neat head-to-head polling Biden supporters love to throw around all the time.
Last time around we were told that it's important to "vet" candidates in the primary. Determining whether or not a front runner is physically up to the task of being president is basic vetting. But apparently vetting is uncivil now, for some reason.
Oh, and while we're all marveling over the incoherence of Biden's record player diatribe last night, don't forget it was also *astonishingly* racist: https://theintercept.com/2019/09/13/joe-biden-democratic-debate-slavery/
Left unsaid in the talk about Biden's mental acuity and concerns over whether or not he's actually up to the task of being president is the fact that he's got staff working for him who want to ride him into the White House and apparently don't care what happens after that.
As the reality, not the organized media gaslighting, of last night's debate sinks in, we'll probably get a new round of stories about how the campaign needs to relax Biden's schedule because he's wearing out.
What that means is that they *know* Biden is not capable of performing the responsibilities of the office (if he can't manage campaigning how on earth can he be president?), but they're trying to hide that fact from voters. It's incredibly cynical.
It's bad politics as well, because Trump is going to hammer this point over and over for months and it is absolutely going to eat into that neat head-to-head polling Biden supporters love to throw around all the time.
Last time around we were told that it's important to "vet" candidates in the primary. Determining whether or not a front runner is physically up to the task of being president is basic vetting. But apparently vetting is uncivil now, for some reason.
Oh, and while we're all marveling over the incoherence of Biden's record player diatribe last night, don't forget it was also *astonishingly* racist: https://theintercept.com/2019/09/13/joe-biden-democratic-debate-slavery/
timschochet
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
It’s possible he is right. Lots of Trump voters are willing to vote for basically anybody else now, because Trump has been such an embarrassment.
That said, ren’s continued support of Gabbard is bizarre.
timschochet
Footballguy
If what you’re saying is true about Trump voters, then the most obvious choice remains Biden. He’s the most “normal” candidate outside of Klobuchar (and I personally believe Klobuchar would have the easiest time defeating Trump of any candidate.)
But personally I am skeptical about these Trump supporters- I think in the end they will vote for Trump again. I am concentrating more on the union types and suburban moms who normally vote Democrat but who either stayed home or voted for Trump because they couldn’t stand Hillary, and also on the black voters who stayed home last time- these are the ones that need to return to the fold in the 3 states that count. And again the best candidate to get them there, outside of Amy, is probably Joe.
Last edited by a moderator:
ren hoek
Footballguy
Pretty much. It's not that Trump voters were ever all that enamored of him, just that they saw a chance to shake things up and didn't see much risk between him and status quo. One of Trump's biggest voting blocs was people who disapprove of him.
Really, I don't support Gabbard, I just think her foreign policy outlook is less worse than the rest of the field. I can't believe there's not a real antiwar voice in this climate.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Agree on the first paragraph.
On the second, there is a difference between anti-war and pro-dictator. Gabbard is pro-dictator, not anti-war.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
Vox does a pretty thorough job here of translating Biden's response to a few different programs he was referencing, including what ren shared above. None directed specifically for blacks. So, I guess now all races can now be offended that he thinks they can't raise their kids without help. 
Seems like ,in his effort to avoid the question, he took his penchant for conflating minorities and poor and started reciting various plans for the disadvantaged. Still not comforting. We deserve a more coherent candidate.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/13/20864336/joe-biden-record-player-nurse-home-visit
Seems like ,in his effort to avoid the question, he took his penchant for conflating minorities and poor and started reciting various plans for the disadvantaged. Still not comforting. We deserve a more coherent candidate.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/13/20864336/joe-biden-record-player-nurse-home-visit
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
https://youtu.be/dtJ34wycgwk?t=576
Good point here too- I don't think it would have mattered if Castro said the same thing to Booker or O'Rourke. It was controversial because everyone is already thinking it: Joe Biden is mentally deteriorating, and unfit for office.
Good point here too- I don't think it would have mattered if Castro said the same thing to Booker or O'Rourke. It was controversial because everyone is already thinking it: Joe Biden is mentally deteriorating, and unfit for office.
timschochet
Footballguy
He’s not getting out. And he’s probably going to be the nominee. You’re going to have to get over this.
Sometimes Grandpa should just be grandpa and not President of the United States.
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1173257303476396032
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1173257303476396032
identikit
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
identikit
Footballguy
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
PleaseNipsey said:
snitwitch
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