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I Was Promised The Commies Weren't Coming For Everything, And You Know How That Worked Out (1 Viewer)

The pragmatist argument doesn’t state that we can’t know. In the case of FDR we DO know, because there was much discussion at the time. FDR was opposed to the anti-lynching laws, and to ending segregation, because he needed southern support for the New Deal. This isn’t debated by historians. 
Right. But and we can know that screaming out a racial epithet while attacking a member of that race can go to evidence of motive. It's relevant. But to impute a motive is something else entirely.

That said, FDR thought existing laws were sufficient to deal with lynching, much like people argue against hate crime statutes. 

 
I think the level of the transgression is something to be considered in the historicism calculus, for sure. In other words, death, slavery, and imprisonment are all way, way up there in terms of a sliding scale regarding how much history one wants to take into account.

Cutting a song about "darkies" in 1930 is very low on that scale.
I don’t disagree with you about Kate Smith, I’ve already stated that. My objection is your use of her example to make broader statements. 

 
Right. But and we can know that screaming out a racial epithet while attacking a member of that race can go to evidence of motive. It's relevant. But to impute a motive is something else entirely.

That said, FDR thought existing laws were sufficient to deal with lynching, much like people argue against hate crime statutes. 
No he didn’t. That was a lie told to cover himself Privately he said the opposite. 

 
No he didn’t. That was a lie told to cover himself Privately he said the opposite. 
Okay. Then I retract the pragmatism argument if it's documented. Pragmatism still might not be an excuse when viewed through a human rights lens. You're practicing historicism right now by looking at the role of society and politics at the time of the New Deal, and judging its necessity forthwith.

The New Deal was necessary, people say. At the time...

 
I give you a ton of credit for owning up to that one.
Thanks. I was embarrassed by that, and tried to make amends. All I can do is say that I can look back at the egg on my face and laugh and call myself a dumb #### and try to make sure it never happens again. It's not like a "ha-ha look at me I'm cool and laughing" type deal, though. It's certainly a learning experience with a bit of humor attached at my own expense. 

 
Thanks. I was embarrassed by that, and tried to make amends. All I can do is say that I can look back at the egg on my face and laugh and call myself a dumb #### and try to make sure it never happens again. It's not like a "ha-ha look at me I'm cool and laughing" type deal, though. It's certainly a learning experience with a bit of humor attached at my own expense. 
We've all been there at some point in our lives.

 
Almost every white entertainer from that era sang songs with racist words and phrases. (Along with most of the black performers too, as rockaction correctly points out.) What are we to do? Should we shun them all? 
The song was not written by Smith correct?  Both Smith and Robeson are artists and performers sang the song.  Like many songs and words of that era I highly doubt they even thought it would be offensive and it took 80+ years to even be brought up.

Fritos corn chips had racists ads in the 60s and 70s as did many companies..should Fritos corn chips be eliminated renamed and rebranded?

 
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The song was not written by Smith correct?  Both Smith and Robeson are artists and performers sang the song.  Like many songs and words of that era I highly doubt they even thought it would be offensive and it took 80+ years to even be brought up.

Fritos corn chips had racists ads in the 60s and 70s as did many companies..should Fritos corn chips be eliminated renamed and rebranded?
If it hurt their sales then I would think it may be smart for them to do that.  If they decided to do it on their own then it's not a big deal.  Now, if the government stepped in and said they had to then we have a major issue.

 
Heh. I can't really speak for Henry and why he chose that name. I do know that his old avatar was, I think, Henry Ford himself. 
And he made reparations for than transgression by changing it to Foghorn Leghorn, who I don't believe was a racist rooster.

 
Almost every white entertainer from that era sang songs with racist words and phrases. (Along with most of the black performers too, as rockaction correctly points out.) What are we to do? Should we shun them all? 
The song was not written by Smith correct?  Both Smith and Robeson are artists and performers sang the song.  Like many songs and words of that era I highly doubt they even thought it would be offensive and it took 80+ years to even be brought up.

Fritos corn chips had racists ads in the 60s and 70s as did many companies..should Fritos corn chips be eliminated renamed and rebranded?
The difference is that a company (such as Fritos/Pepsi) can apologize and/or disassociate itself from racist imagery, as Fritos did 48 years ago.

Kate Smith never apologized or disassociated herself from her racist recordings, as far as I know. Then again, maybe no one ever asked her about it.

 
The difference is that a company (such as Fritos/Pepsi) can apologize and/or disassociate itself from racist imagery, as Fritos did 48 years ago.

Kate Smith never apologized or disassociated herself from her racist recordings, as far as I know. Then again, maybe no one ever asked her about it.
Also, it’s not like this statue is her only legacy.  She was awarded the Congressional Medal of Freedom before her death.  

But I don’t imagine anyone ever asked her about it - by the time anyone cared about racism in media she had brain damage. 

 
I think probably the best argument against her being held responsible is that both of these songs were early in her career, at a time when producers completely controlled artists. It’s not likely she had strong control of her songs at that time.  If she kept singing them on her TV shows or anything, that would be much worse. 

 
It all happened on Hewitts show if I’m correct? Read Hugh’s twitter feed to see his defense of it.
Yes, it was the weakest defense of something I could read. I can read a transcript. I don't care that he was interviewing the guy, he doesn't get to put an imprimatur on anything. He also didn't say "out of context," he said what he believed Buttigieg would do. I say we use Pistol Pete's own words there. 

 
Some follow up with Pete (maybe there already has been?) would be good imo. 
Oh, I think we'd get the hedgiest hedge in hedgeville. This isn't a real nuance issue. You're either for renaming or you're not.

Transcript:

"Well, let's go to policy now—a very blunt question because you talk about going to every Jefferson-Jackson Dinner in Indiana when you were running statewide. Should Jefferson-Jackson dinners be renamed everywhere because both were holders of slaves?" Hewitt asked.

"Yeah, we're doing that in Indiana. I think it's the right thing to do," Buttigieg said. "Over time, you develop and evolve on the things you choose to honor … Jefferson is more problematic. There's a lot of course to admire in his thinking and his philosophy, but then again if you plunge into his writings, especially the notes on the state of Virginia, you know that he knew slavery was wrong."

Buttigieg said, "We are all morally conflicted human beings." While he said Democrats aren't deleting him from the history books or saying he's not a founding father, Buttigieg said naming events after him is a different story.

"The real reason I think there is a lot of pressure on this is the relationship between the past and present that we're finding in a million different ways that racism isn't some curiosity out of the past that we're embarrassed about but moved on from," Buttigieg said. "It's alive. It's well. It's hurting people and it's one of the main reasons to be in politics today is to try to change or reverse  the harms that went along with that." - Washington Free Beacon

 
Oh, I think we'd get the hedgiest hedge in hedgeville. This isn't a real nuance issue. You're either for renaming or you're not.

Transcript:

"Well, let's go to policy now—a very blunt question because you talk about going to every Jefferson-Jackson Dinner in Indiana when you were running statewide. Should Jefferson-Jackson dinners be renamed everywhere because both were holders of slaves?" Hewitt asked.

"Yeah, we're doing that in Indiana. I think it's the right thing to do," Buttigieg said. "Over time, you develop and evolve on the things you choose to honor … Jefferson is more problematic. There's a lot of course to admire in his thinking and his philosophy, but then again if you plunge into his writings, especially the notes on the state of Virginia, you know that he knew slavery was wrong."

Buttigieg said, "We are all morally conflicted human beings." While he said Democrats aren't deleting him from the history books or saying he's not a founding father, Buttigieg said naming events after him is a different story.

"The real reason I think there is a lot of pressure on this is the relationship between the past and present that we're finding in a million different ways that racism isn't some curiosity out of the past that we're embarrassed about but moved on from," Buttigieg said. "It's alive. It's well. It's hurting people and it's one of the main reasons to be in politics today is to try to change or reverse  the harms that went along with that." - Washington Free Beacon
Is there a difference in say renaming Jefferson Middle School and knocking down Jefferson Memorial? I do see a jump from changing names of places to actually changing history which is where I see what communism did- actually altering historical photos, documents, etc. Do you not see a difference or just see it as the slippery slope?

 
Oh, I think we'd get the hedgiest hedge in hedgeville. This isn't a real nuance issue. You're either for renaming or you're not.

Transcript:

"Well, let's go to policy now—a very blunt question because you talk about going to every Jefferson-Jackson Dinner in Indiana when you were running statewide. Should Jefferson-Jackson dinners be renamed everywhere because both were holders of slaves?" Hewitt asked.

"Yeah, we're doing that in Indiana. I think it's the right thing to do," Buttigieg said. "Over time, you develop and evolve on the things you choose to honor … Jefferson is more problematic. There's a lot of course to admire in his thinking and his philosophy, but then again if you plunge into his writings, especially the notes on the state of Virginia, you know that he knew slavery was wrong."

Buttigieg said, "We are all morally conflicted human beings." While he said Democrats aren't deleting him from the history books or saying he's not a founding father, Buttigieg said naming events after him is a different story.

"The real reason I think there is a lot of pressure on this is the relationship between the past and present that we're finding in a million different ways that racism isn't some curiosity out of the past that we're embarrassed about but moved on from," Buttigieg said. "It's alive. It's well. It's hurting people and it's one of the main reasons to be in politics today is to try to change or reverse  the harms that went along with that." - Washington Free Beacon
Thread

 
Is there a difference in say renaming Jefferson Middle School and knocking down Jefferson Memorial? I do see a jump from changing names of places to actually changing history which is where I see what communism did- actually altering historical photos, documents, etc. Do you not see a difference or just see it as the slippery slope?
I see it as a revaluing of values in any sense, and that's where discernment comes in about who is doing the judging of what needs to be revalued, who is doing and how and why they are doing the revaluing, what the values offered as alternatives are, and the extent and nature of the change. 

 
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Oh, I think we'd get the hedgiest hedge in hedgeville. This isn't a real nuance issue. You're either for renaming or you're not.

Transcript:

"Well, let's go to policy now—a very blunt question because you talk about going to every Jefferson-Jackson Dinner in Indiana when you were running statewide. Should Jefferson-Jackson dinners be renamed everywhere because both were holders of slaves?" Hewitt asked.

"Yeah, we're doing that in Indiana. I think it's the right thing to do," Buttigieg said. "Over time, you develop and evolve on the things you choose to honor … Jefferson is more problematic. There's a lot of course to admire in his thinking and his philosophy, but then again if you plunge into his writings, especially the notes on the state of Virginia, you know that he knew slavery was wrong."

Buttigieg said, "We are all morally conflicted human beings." While he said Democrats aren't deleting him from the history books or saying he's not a founding father, Buttigieg said naming events after him is a different story.

"The real reason I think there is a lot of pressure on this is the relationship between the past and present that we're finding in a million different ways that racism isn't some curiosity out of the past that we're embarrassed about but moved on from," Buttigieg said. "It's alive. It's well. It's hurting people and it's one of the main reasons to be in politics today is to try to change or reverse  the harms that went along with that." - Washington Free Beacon
So he didn’t actually say remove all things Jefferson as you claimed?

 
No, that's not the end of the thread. He's specifically calling for a revaluation of both Jackson and Jefferson. Yes, Jackson is more problematic in the transcript. But he never gives an answer about Jefferson.

They're coming for Jefferson; always have been. Give it another ten years. 

 
No, that's not the end of the thread. He's specifically calling for a revaluation of both Jackson and Jefferson. Yes, Jackson is more problematic in the transcript. But he never gives an answer about Jefferson.

They're coming for Jefferson; always have been. Give it another ten years. 
I was referring to the twitter thread that I linked.

 
So he didn’t actually say remove all things Jefferson as you claimed?
Transcript:

"Well, let's go to policy now—a very blunt question because you talk about going to every Jefferson-Jackson Dinner in Indiana when you were running statewide. Should Jefferson-Jackson dinners be renamed everywhere because both were holders of slaves?" Hewitt asked.

"Yeah, we're doing that in Indiana. I think it's the right thing to do,

 
Transcript:

"Well, let's go to policy now—a very blunt question because you talk about going to every Jefferson-Jackson Dinner in Indiana when you were running statewide. Should Jefferson-Jackson dinners be renamed everywhere because both were holders of slaves?" Hewitt asked.

"Yeah, we're doing that in Indiana. I think it's the right thing to do,
Dinners and events are all things Jefferson?

 
I was referring to the twitter thread that I linked.
Ah, I see. The Twitter thread is clear. He would rename at least all Jackson-Jefferson dinners and would reevaluate who and what we want to "honor," Jackson presumably getting knocked from all honors with Jefferson as slightly more "problematic."

Funny, I didn't think honoring Jefferson was "problematic" in these debates at all. I was told it was just the Confederacy and its statues, not the slaveholding Founders. Sounds like Joss Wheedon or some such rot. 

 
Oh, dude, sho. I don't care about your dialectical scalpel when Buttersomething is talking about cudgels. 

I don't care how upset it makes you. It's all part of the name game. 

 
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Is the Democratic Party rebranding a fundraising event a big deal? As a history teacher, I do think we need to be very careful here but modern institutions do need to be able to evolve as they always have.

 
You just don’t seem like you care about accurately reflecting what he said and wrongly portraying him as a commie.
He's for single-payer health care and reevaluating the Founders and lions of history. That's all I need to know about that commie. 

 
He's for single-payer health care and reevaluating the Founders and lions of history. That's all I need to know about that commie. 
Reevaluating the founders?  Or events named after them. Because what you quoted was clear he wouldn’t erase any of it from history.

And again I say you need to brush up on communism...because there is nothing about him that is actually communist.

Enjoy your little inaccurate ranting. 

 
Is the Democratic Party rebranding a fundraising event a big deal? As a history teacher, I do think we need to be very careful here but modern institutions do need to be able to evolve as they always have.
If it's their own party's fundraiser, then they should be allowed to rebrand it. Considering the Democratic Party traces their lineage back to Jackson, they can apologize for it all they want. Better not to be known as the "Party of Jackson" when there's a "Party of Lincoln" to contend with.

 
I see it as a revaluing of values in any sense, and that's where discernment comes in about who is doing the judging of what needs to be revalued, who is doing and how and why they are doing the revaluing, what the values offered as alternatives are, and the extent and nature of the change. 
Shouldn’t the Democratic Party leaders in Indiana have control over revaluing and re-evaluating their fundraising dinners? If we get into public bi-partisan things like monuments or schools, then I think we have to re-evaluate.

 
Reevaluating the founders?  Or events named after them. Because what you quoted was clear he wouldn’t erase any of it from history.

And again I say you need to brush up on communism...because there is nothing about him that is actually communist.

Enjoy your little inaccurate ranting. 
Go cry, sho. The only people you have as voices in the forefront are commies or poor versions of one. 

 
Shouldn’t the Democratic Party leaders in Indiana have control over revaluing and re-evaluating their fundraising dinners? If we get into public bi-partisan things like monuments or schools, then I think we have to re-evaluate.
See above. 

 
Sanders, Warren, AOC, Buttigieg with single-payer. Who is looking forward and who is really retrograde? Old ideas are old ideas, no matter what sex they take on or how they come dressed for the party. 

 
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If it's their own party's fundraiser, then they should be allowed to rebrand it. Considering the Democratic Party traces their lineage back to Jackson, they can apologize for it all they want. Better not to be known as the "Party of Jackson" when there's a "Party of Lincoln" to contend with.
Maybe I’m wrong but isn’t the Jackson Jefferson dinner thing just a traditional Democratic fundraising event from 50 years ago?

See above. 
Yeah sorry I kind of doubled up posts there 

 
The inexorable march of the renaming acolytes will not stop until they rewrite public life. They already slipped in the back door and did it in the school history books; now they're going after public life in general. The concept of History does not stop. It cannot and never will. Buttigieg is but a temporary dyke in the dam. The deluge will not be stopped unless these people are roundly defeated and told to take their ten percent back to the political closet where they belong.

 
If it's their own party's fundraiser, then they should be allowed to rebrand it. Considering the Democratic Party traces their lineage back to Jackson, they can apologize for it all they want. Better not to be known as the "Party of Jackson" when there's a "Party of Lincoln" to contend with.
Maybe I’m wrong but isn’t the Jackson Jefferson dinner thing just a traditional Democratic fundraising event from 50 years ago?

See above. 
Yeah sorry I kind of doubled up posts there 

 

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