The Jacket
Footballguy
WRs really shouldn't go #1 overall, but Johnson is just too f'ing good.
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1.01: Who Should The Oakland Raiders Pick? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sigmund Bloom
- Start date
Oakland has a chance to get an unqualified ELITE player with world class speed at a position that Al Davis likes to see speed. You can't coach speed. Tim Brown didn't do too badly for them, setting records and always providing steady play and opportunities to win, but he didn't have the same combo of speed, athletic ability and size that Calvin Johnson provides.
Do you think Al Davis might regret not having drafted Fitzgerald instead of Gallery?
The only players I see that don't have question marks associated with them are Joe Thomas, Calvin Johnson and several of the defensive linemen. Although Al Davis could trade down, that isn't normally the direction he trades in. If he did trade down, then I could see him going with Joe Thomas in the top 5, or Okoye in the top 10. He could possibly go with Adrian Peterson if he traded down, but Peterson would have to slip a bit.
I simply don't buy the QB argument. If he believed that much in drafting QB's in the first round, then he would have drafted Leinart last year. In my opinion Leinart had less question marks then Russell does. As much as the Raiders need a QB, they also need a line, a WR, a RB, a DT, etc. Look past the team needs, and look at the confluence of an owner enamored with speed WR's, and a WR with speed and size and hands and athletic ability.
It is Calvin Johnson.
Do you think Al Davis might regret not having drafted Fitzgerald instead of Gallery?
The only players I see that don't have question marks associated with them are Joe Thomas, Calvin Johnson and several of the defensive linemen. Although Al Davis could trade down, that isn't normally the direction he trades in. If he did trade down, then I could see him going with Joe Thomas in the top 5, or Okoye in the top 10. He could possibly go with Adrian Peterson if he traded down, but Peterson would have to slip a bit.
I simply don't buy the QB argument. If he believed that much in drafting QB's in the first round, then he would have drafted Leinart last year. In my opinion Leinart had less question marks then Russell does. As much as the Raiders need a QB, they also need a line, a WR, a RB, a DT, etc. Look past the team needs, and look at the confluence of an owner enamored with speed WR's, and a WR with speed and size and hands and athletic ability.
It is Calvin Johnson.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
I'm convinced.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
I believe one of Joe Staley and Tony Ugoh will be there at 2.1.Then it's a question of what you'd rather have. CJ and Staley/Ugoh or Joe Thomas and ???.I'd rather have the former.
gman8343
What would Lemmy do?
But the 2nd round pick could still be a good WR prospect - the draft is deep at WR this year.I still agree with you, though, but it could end up being close.
massraider
Footballguy
They should definitely take a WR. There's simply too much evidence that building your team around stud wideouts leads to team success. Like, ummmm.......well.......
Look, if they do take Calvin, it'll be tough for me to knock the pick. The guy has no holes. And I'll be happy to have him. He'll make his QB better. I definitely believe that. #1 rated player in the draft, how can you knock the pick?
But I have to look at my team, and imagine how they are going to get better. I also have to consider how easy, or difficult certain positions are to fill. Like OT. And QB. I don't see either one of those positions stocked in the FA market. But I see capable WR's and RB's looking for work.
Leaving that aside for the moment, it's interesting that we should go BPA available this year, but many seem to think we should have taken Leinart last year. But I think it's a good chance that Huff was higher rated than Leinart last year. Heck, two safeties went before Leinart last year. Leinart went 10th last year, IIRC.
We took Gallery a few years ago, when Fitz was available. Boy, what a mistake! Shoulda taken Fitz, right? Not Rivers or Roethlisberger, but the WR. Meantime, Roeth wins ring, and Rivers wins the AFC West. Fitz?
I see WR as a luxury pick, and a risky one at that. QB is risky, but not a luxury. And the payoff if that pick hits is so much bigger than WR.
Dream scenario: Trade down to 3 or 4, still get Russell or Quinn.
Stay put: Take Russell. or Quinn. I'm not so convinced on one or the other.
I do wonder why we aren't hearing about the Raiders fielding trade offers for the #1 pick. Why aren't these teams scrambling to get their hands on Calvin Johnson?
Look, if they do take Calvin, it'll be tough for me to knock the pick. The guy has no holes. And I'll be happy to have him. He'll make his QB better. I definitely believe that. #1 rated player in the draft, how can you knock the pick?
But I have to look at my team, and imagine how they are going to get better. I also have to consider how easy, or difficult certain positions are to fill. Like OT. And QB. I don't see either one of those positions stocked in the FA market. But I see capable WR's and RB's looking for work.
Leaving that aside for the moment, it's interesting that we should go BPA available this year, but many seem to think we should have taken Leinart last year. But I think it's a good chance that Huff was higher rated than Leinart last year. Heck, two safeties went before Leinart last year. Leinart went 10th last year, IIRC.
We took Gallery a few years ago, when Fitz was available. Boy, what a mistake! Shoulda taken Fitz, right? Not Rivers or Roethlisberger, but the WR. Meantime, Roeth wins ring, and Rivers wins the AFC West. Fitz?
I see WR as a luxury pick, and a risky one at that. QB is risky, but not a luxury. And the payoff if that pick hits is so much bigger than WR.
Dream scenario: Trade down to 3 or 4, still get Russell or Quinn.
Stay put: Take Russell. or Quinn. I'm not so convinced on one or the other.
I do wonder why we aren't hearing about the Raiders fielding trade offers for the #1 pick. Why aren't these teams scrambling to get their hands on Calvin Johnson?
Statorama
Footballguy
This was my thought as well. I don't even want to imagine CJ on the Patriots.
cstu
Footballguy
Why don't guys like that at least get liposuction done if they are too lazy to lose the weight?
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
The Indianapolis Colts?
Yes. I'm sure Peyton Manning has a lot to do with it too. But would he have as much success throwing to more average receivers?
Statorama
Footballguy
It's just crazy. All the guy has to do is work out like a demon until the draft, sign a huge contract, then pull a "Hot Plate" Williams on whatever team drafted him. But noooooooooooo Jemarcus shows up looking like Quinten Dailey. It'd be like Rae Carruth showing up at the combine with an Uzi.
Kleck.
Footballguy
Good point and I've thought about this too. I would just rather have the guaranteed Oline help with Thomas and not risk possibly losing out on one of the next tier lineman in the 2nd. It's not an exciting pick, but for as much as people want to throw Johnson out as a can't miss, I see Thomas just as much as one.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
The combo of Calvin and Ugoh/Staley/Blalock is INFINITELY better, IMO, then Joe Thomas and Johnny Lee Higgins (for example).
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
But what about:1.1 - Joe Thomas2.1 - Sidney Rice3.1 - Trent Edwards
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I was never as high on Gallery as everyone else was. Joe Thomas is the real deal though. I think he will come in right away and make an impact. He will help the LG position out as well because IMO he will need very little double team help...the double team can be for the LG/C slot or the A Gap. A rock solid LT can make up for other positions that are weaker. Richmond Webb is not a HoF LT but he anchored Miami for many seasons and he upgraded an OL that was never all that great in the early 90s.
Kleck.
Footballguy
Absolutely agree, but the chances of Ugoh/Staley/Blalock being there at 2.01 are less likely than Higgins who should be there in the mid/late 2nd. And if we are going to assume that Blalock is there at 2.01, then give me Thomas/Blalock.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
True Statement however they can get a WR that will do well. The WR draft is deep.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Excellent post.I think their are teams that covet Calvin Johnson, the Raiders have the best chance to trade down since maybe SD in 2000. Teams will leverage 1st round picks for 2008 to move up to get CJ.
Realistically, drafting a QB doesn't help this team as quickly as other positions. Drafting a QB this year is like putting a gun to the head of the same QB. He will be dead before the third game of the season, buried in the turf by the pass rush. I believe they should look to the offensive line with the first two picks. But, you have to look at who is making the decisions here.
Al Davis.
Who will Al draft? The over-weight guy who only appeared on the radar above Quinn when he won the last game of his college career? The WR with speed to kill? The offensive lineman that is athletic and fast? The next uber-RB (better than Marcus Allen or Bo?)? Realistically, I see him drafting Calvin Johnson first, followed by Joe Thomas in a close run with Adrian Peterson. If they trade too far down I can see them taking Okoye. But, I really don't see them trading down, as much as I want them to.
Al Davis.
Who will Al draft? The over-weight guy who only appeared on the radar above Quinn when he won the last game of his college career? The WR with speed to kill? The offensive lineman that is athletic and fast? The next uber-RB (better than Marcus Allen or Bo?)? Realistically, I see him drafting Calvin Johnson first, followed by Joe Thomas in a close run with Adrian Peterson. If they trade too far down I can see them taking Okoye. But, I really don't see them trading down, as much as I want them to.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
The Indianapolis Colts?Yes. I'm sure Peyton Manning has a lot to do with it too. But would he have as much success throwing to more average receivers?
Gr00vus
Footballguy
LHUCKS
Footballguy
this is a good point, especially when we know the Raiders are shopping Moss all over the place.
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jurb26
Footballguy
It might be if we knew that these were going to be the availablie players for Oak. I highly dought they will though. I'd say this example is taking the worst of the poossible WR that could be there at the turn and the best of the possible OL that could be there at the turn. I think there is a very good chance that a guy like Rice or Jarrett is sitting there for Oak. Oh and what about Stanton? He should be there too. So now you start the day with Thomas and Rice/Jarrett/Stanton. Not too mention what will happen if they deal Moss.Again, this draft is loaded with talent at WR. Sure, there is a drop off from Johnson to the others but simple supply and demand should warrent a very highly rated WR in the 2.01 spot.
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Delusions Of Adequacy
Footballguy
Highly doubt most GMs consider #1 pick money for an average player to be a "win/win"s_ezy said:Ministry of Pain said:Calvin Johnson should also be considered by all these teamsthe first round is a lot of boom/ bust, johnson at the very worst will be an average player, these teams need average players anyways so its a win/win
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
I agree with those that have been calling for Thomas. No skill player they add to the team is going to make an immediate impact, at least as far as wins and losses are concerned. Unless you are absolutely conviced that Russell is a franchise QB, and I'm not, I think you have to address the OL.
stevegamer
Footballguy
Another for Thomas.
ATC1
Footballguy
I was goint to post something similar. make it seem like CJ is the man. Some team will jump up to take him. Slide down a few spots and take Russell there. Not many teams would pick up a QB in the top ten.
Gargoylez
Footballguy
Not a huge fan of the "trade down" theories... they rarely come true.Raiders need to deal moss, plain and simple, even if it for a chocolate shake from Wendy's.But BPA is obviously Calvin, but if there is no one to throw to him, and there is no one to block for the QB, how effective will he be? Past his rookie year? Stab in the dark as is most picks.Thomas, Russell or Quinn just make to much sense here. I won't be surprised or think it a bad pick, if the Rioters pick Calvin, but I firmly beleive the war is won in the trenches (OL and DL) and the X factor is the QB.bostonfred said:
My opinion is take Joe Thomas at #1, then another offensive lineman with the 2nd round pick. The top offensive guard in the third round.
It is amazing how good a crappy QB looks with a real line to block for him.
Or, being a contrarian, take a defensive tackle (like Okoye) or the top free safety (like Landry). If you can't win, at least you can kill the other team.
It is amazing how good a crappy QB looks with a real line to block for him.
Or, being a contrarian, take a defensive tackle (like Okoye) or the top free safety (like Landry). If you can't win, at least you can kill the other team.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
Ask the Texans how Andre Johnson is working out for them. A great WR who could develop into something special, but has no QB to throw to him and no line to give the QB time to throw to him.
Thomas SHOULD be the choice (which is the question...crazy Al may take the WR anyway)
Thomas SHOULD be the choice (which is the question...crazy Al may take the WR anyway)
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
i DON'T want russell
perfect world- trade down
more likely world-- cj(al's nuts for speed/skill positions), o-lineman with 2nd pick(best available), dl with extra second round pick that we (hopefully) get for moss. qb in later rounds, or plug a vet in. i hate all these names but here they are: green, plummer, harrington, brad johnson, bledsoe
, someone of that ilk.
we need playerS. not A QB
perfect world- trade down
more likely world-- cj(al's nuts for speed/skill positions), o-lineman with 2nd pick(best available), dl with extra second round pick that we (hopefully) get for moss. qb in later rounds, or plug a vet in. i hate all these names but here they are: green, plummer, harrington, brad johnson, bledsoe
, someone of that ilk.we need playerS. not A QB
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
add david carr to that list. at least we know he's tough & can a sack or 5i DON'T want russell
perfect world- trade down
more likely world-- cj(al's nuts for speed/skill positions), o-lineman with 2nd pick(best available), dl with extra second round pick that we (hopefully) get for moss. qb in later rounds, or plug a vet in. i hate all these names but here they are: green, plummer, harrington, brad johnson, bledsoe, someone of that ilk.
we need playerS. not A QB
how about we take cj & get a 3rd rounder or very low 2nd for moss(please) & take BA O lineman with second pick & maybe just maybe get stanton at 3.01. otherwise take a flier on a qb in round 4 or 5Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Joe Thomas
OL and DL are just way too important. Never pass up a stud. I expect HOU regrets passing on Ferguson more than Bush.
Average QBs can be had.... Carr, CPep ... and quote frankly they are better than what you get out of a rook QB for 2 or so years.
Moss is still there, so Johnson is a nice to have, not a pure need.
Thomas would improve a run game that got better this offseason, plus help protect a new QB. All of which makes Moss a less covered man.
OL and DL are just way too important. Never pass up a stud. I expect HOU regrets passing on Ferguson more than Bush.
Average QBs can be had.... Carr, CPep ... and quote frankly they are better than what you get out of a rook QB for 2 or so years.
Moss is still there, so Johnson is a nice to have, not a pure need.
Thomas would improve a run game that got better this offseason, plus help protect a new QB. All of which makes Moss a less covered man.
Wandering wookie
Footballguy
MoP brings the house down...excellent post. This is the point of the draft: to improve the entire team for 4-6 years a best and with the 1.1 pick it is much more imperative that you select for the best of your team. Forget filling the seats (lord knows that Raider Nation is already going to show up), forget making your team exciting on paper, just get the guy who is going to put your team in position to win or play better football in the next season and immediate future. Sure CJ is sexy and will be a legit WR but if he's getting jammed and covered by the Opp's best DB talent while a pass rush is terrifying your QB because Joe Hummperdink couldn't block out sunlight, forget it...you're wasting talent, causing disruption, and producing a poor product. Get your bookends and grab some interior help before wasting your time with the outside players...build from the line to the outside. I am an avid Patriots fan who would wish for nothing more than the Raiders to suck for the rest of my life but I cannot stand by and tolerate the crap that has gone on in Oakland over the past couple years. Com'on Al, hand over the reigns and make the wise choice for once, not the crazy one.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Jeebus H. People act like Joe Thomas is the only tackle available in the draft and that if you have a Jon Ogden or Orlando Pace on your roster that all defenses just stop trying on the left side.
People are way overrating the need for a superstar at the position.
People are way overrating the need for a superstar at the position.
Wandering wookie
Footballguy
Andy, I do not think that the need is being overly overrated but if you had seen any of the Raiders games last year (I am sure you caught a couple) you would recognize the fact that the Raiders had opposing players in the backfield many a time prior to hand-offs. You are right, Thomas is not Ogden or Slater but he is clearly top level talent and will solidify the line along with Gallery moving over to RT. If I was a GM, this is how I would build my team: from the lines out 1st, Defense 2nd, and Skill position last. Sure it may suck for a couple years but the Raiders already have a couple decent gamers at the skill positions in the shapes of Jordon, Moss, Porter...ect. The addition of Rhodes gives them two backs with solid skills and also allows for the persuit of other endevors in the draft. Improving the OL would give the Raiders a large chance to step forwards over the next couple years especially if they can add some key pieces all at once a la NYJets and their brilliant drafting of last year. I like the prospect of having the chance at Grubbs/Kalil on the 2.1 spot rather than hoping that Staley (my feel is that he is a workout wonder but I am often wrong) is available. This way at 3.1 spot you have many more options available at WR and QB if they are set on picking one of those up. Don't forget Drew Bledsoe is available...
I would be most pleased if Oakland traded down a few spots and picked up an extra pick or two. Heck, I'm good if they trade down into the 8 to 10 range and get several extra picks. But, Al makes the final decisions there.
Al Davis passed on Shaun Alexander to draft Sebastian Janikowski. A freaking kicker with pending felonies drafted in the first. Al Davis reaches for potential. The ultimate speed/size WR is sitting there at #1, in the form of Calvin Johnson. Unless someone overpays for the #1 (John Gruden trade, anyone?), Al will take his guy first overall.
Al Davis likely would have taken Vince Young if he were drafting at #1 last year, but Quinn and Russell are not Vince Young. Calvin Johnson has two qualities that can't be coached, size and speed. He looked like the best WR in college with a QB throwing to him that could best be called mediocre. The guy has the attitude of trying to prove himself every play. Even if drafted at #1, he will play like he was passed over for the draft.
We all know, or think we know, what would be best for the Raiders. An improved offensive line. Al Davis has always found defensive and offensive line players in the later rounds. I believe that Davis feels that he can still get an offensive lineman later that will be able to be coached up or approaches the talent of Thomas. But, there is noone with the speed/size/hands/attitude/ability of Calvin Johnson.
You can talk all day long about how deep this draft is in WR's, GOOD WR's. But, this draft is only one deep at GREAT WR's. The best player in the draft, hands down, without a doubt? One player. Calvin Johnson.
Al Davis doesn't want to draft a "good" player with the first pick. He wants to draft a GREAT player. A player with all of the crazy measurables, and all of the intangibles to boot. A "face of the franchise" player. Unless someone pays up 3,500 points or more in draft pick value, Davis is taking Calvin Johnson.
Al Davis passed on Shaun Alexander to draft Sebastian Janikowski. A freaking kicker with pending felonies drafted in the first. Al Davis reaches for potential. The ultimate speed/size WR is sitting there at #1, in the form of Calvin Johnson. Unless someone overpays for the #1 (John Gruden trade, anyone?), Al will take his guy first overall.
Al Davis likely would have taken Vince Young if he were drafting at #1 last year, but Quinn and Russell are not Vince Young. Calvin Johnson has two qualities that can't be coached, size and speed. He looked like the best WR in college with a QB throwing to him that could best be called mediocre. The guy has the attitude of trying to prove himself every play. Even if drafted at #1, he will play like he was passed over for the draft.
We all know, or think we know, what would be best for the Raiders. An improved offensive line. Al Davis has always found defensive and offensive line players in the later rounds. I believe that Davis feels that he can still get an offensive lineman later that will be able to be coached up or approaches the talent of Thomas. But, there is noone with the speed/size/hands/attitude/ability of Calvin Johnson.
You can talk all day long about how deep this draft is in WR's, GOOD WR's. But, this draft is only one deep at GREAT WR's. The best player in the draft, hands down, without a doubt? One player. Calvin Johnson.
Al Davis doesn't want to draft a "good" player with the first pick. He wants to draft a GREAT player. A player with all of the crazy measurables, and all of the intangibles to boot. A "face of the franchise" player. Unless someone pays up 3,500 points or more in draft pick value, Davis is taking Calvin Johnson.
Wandering wookie
Footballguy
How great of player will CJ be if his qb is on his back or scrambling to make something happen while CJ is learing what it is like to have EVERY db bringing his A game to him. I hope Calvin has got some serious moral/mental fortitude to deal with the garbage that he is going to be put through his first three seasons or so.
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Kleck
Footballguy
Should we make this a poll?
I vote Calvin Johnson. Taking a QB #1 overall just seems like such a crap shoot. If I was a GM I would lean OL and DL in the first round practically every year, but I haven't seen as much tape of Thomas. I have seen enough tape of Johnson. Johnson is just a freak of nature talent. Best talent since Larry Fitzgerald, and I believe that Fitzgerald is the best WR in the game right now.
I vote Calvin Johnson. Taking a QB #1 overall just seems like such a crap shoot. If I was a GM I would lean OL and DL in the first round practically every year, but I haven't seen as much tape of Thomas. I have seen enough tape of Johnson. Johnson is just a freak of nature talent. Best talent since Larry Fitzgerald, and I believe that Fitzgerald is the best WR in the game right now.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
This would be a whole lot easier if the Raiders would either cut or trade Randy Moss.
Calvin Johnson is probably a more obvious #1 overall than even Reggie Bush was last year. And a trio of Johnson*/Porter/Curry would be absurd.
*At this stage, Johnson >>> Moss, both physically and, especially, mentally speaking.
Trade Moss for a plain bagel if you have to. Just get him off your team. Heck, GIVE him to the Chiefs. They're desperate enough at WR. Plus you'd be sabotaging a division rival. It's a double win!
In the 2nd round, you've likely got either Joe Staley or Tony Ugoh as an option at LT as it's highly unlikely that both go in the 1st. As yourself this: Would I rather have Calvin Johnson and Staley/Ugoh, or Joe Thomas and ANYBODY else? I'll take the first, thank you.
BTW - I know my tone can come across sometimes as condescending. I'm just a guy that is vehemently defending my viewpoint. Those of you offering counterpoints are certainly NOT dummies for holding a contrary view to mine and are doing a great job of explaining why you think I'm wrong. Isn't draft talk fun!?
Calvin Johnson is probably a more obvious #1 overall than even Reggie Bush was last year. And a trio of Johnson*/Porter/Curry would be absurd.
*At this stage, Johnson >>> Moss, both physically and, especially, mentally speaking.
Trade Moss for a plain bagel if you have to. Just get him off your team. Heck, GIVE him to the Chiefs. They're desperate enough at WR. Plus you'd be sabotaging a division rival. It's a double win!
In the 2nd round, you've likely got either Joe Staley or Tony Ugoh as an option at LT as it's highly unlikely that both go in the 1st. As yourself this: Would I rather have Calvin Johnson and Staley/Ugoh, or Joe Thomas and ANYBODY else? I'll take the first, thank you.
BTW - I know my tone can come across sometimes as condescending. I'm just a guy that is vehemently defending my viewpoint. Those of you offering counterpoints are certainly NOT dummies for holding a contrary view to mine and are doing a great job of explaining why you think I'm wrong. Isn't draft talk fun!?
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I'm on board with trading him to the Chiefs, Chargers or Bronco's for a promise that they can't cut or trade him for two years, and that they pay his current salary. No draft picks, just that promise.This would be a whole lot easier if the Raiders would either cut or trade Randy Moss.Calvin Johnson is probably a more obvious #1 overall than even Reggie Bush was last year. And a trio of Johnson*/Porter/Curry would be absurd.*At this stage, Johnson >>> Moss, both physically and, especially, mentally speaking.Trade Moss for a plain bagel if you have to. Just get him off your team. Heck, GIVE him to the Chiefs. They're desperate enough at WR. Plus you'd be sabotaging a division rival. It's a double win!In the 2nd round, you've likely got either Joe Staley or Tony Ugoh as an option at LT as it's highly unlikely that both go in the 1st. As yourself this: Would I rather have Calvin Johnson and Staley/Ugoh, or Joe Thomas and ANYBODY else? I'll take the first, thank you.BTW - I know my tone can come across sometimes as condescending. I'm just a guy that is vehemently defending my viewpoint. Those of you offering counterpoints are certainly NOT dummies for holding a contrary view to mine and are doing a great job of explaining why you think I'm wrong. Isn't draft talk fun!?
I think they need to sign Carr prior to drafting CJ. Just my opinion though.
chasyone
Footballguy
I agree. Thats what I meant to say.
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